Debates of Feb. 15th, 1995

30Th Anniversary Of Canadian Flag

[Monique Guay, Bloc, Laurentides, QC]

Mr. Speaker, instead of clumsily justifying himself, why does the minister not just admit that we have a clear case here of a vast federal propaganda campaign gearing up in Quebec during the year of the referendum?

[Michel Dupuy, Liberal, Minister of Canadian Heritage]

Mr. Speaker, my colleagues may suppose that I am using the 30th anniversary of the flag to detract attention from a referendum that has not even been called yet. I would say that some people have a very narrow mind on these issues, so narrow that their ears are stuck together from the inside. Now I understand why they need to separate to broaden their vision and their minds.

[The Speaker]

Sometimes, these exchanges give me such a headache. Let us move on.

Gun Control

[Ian McClelland, Reform, Edmonton Southwest, AB]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Justice.

Many Canadians feel that the Achilles' heel of the gun legislation is the registration of long guns, not of handguns nor the other aspects of the bill but the registration of .22s and shotguns.

The justice department considers that the cost may be as much as $85 million and others have said considerably more over five years. Could the Minister of Justice tell the House whether this money would not be better spent in cancer research or, better yet, not spent at all in so far as this is money we have to borrow from future generations for registration and there is no proof that it will do one iota of good?

[Allan Rock, Liberal, Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada]

Mr. Speaker, in the first place may I say that the estimates as to costs which the Department of Justice has arrived at will be put in detail before the parliamentary committee that will consider the legislation. It will examine our assumptions. It will see our calculations. We will establish that they are real and that they are dependable.

Second, may I say that the registration system, together with the other elements of this package in the bill, are going to save lives in the country. May I close by saying that I am not the only one who believes in that.

May I point out that a survey done by the hon. member in his own riding established that 69 per cent of the respondents agreed with registration. I would like the hon. member to tell the House whether he is going to vote with his constituents on this issue.

[Ian McClelland, Reform, Edmonton Southwest, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I am delighted to have the opportunity to advise members opposite that I was elected by 100 per cent of the people who voted for me for three very distinct reasons. The first was to get our nation-

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh.

[The Speaker]

Usually the answers are to my right and the questions are on the other side. Would the hon. member please put his question.

[Ian McClelland, Reform, Edmonton Southwest, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I will vote in absolute fidelity to the best wishes of my constituents.

I have a supplementary question for the Minister of Justice. It is a most serious question because we are facing a most serious debt crisis in the country.

Will the minister, before universal registration of long guns is implemented, bring before the House the quantitative information that will attest to the veracity of his decision to register all long guns before it is implemented?

[Allan Rock, Liberal, Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada]

Mr. Speaker, I have already made it clear that we will put the details of our calculations before the committee.

In so far as the wisdom of the registration system is concerned, first we rely upon the advice of the experts, the police chiefs across the country who have been asking for this for years.

We say as well that if the approach advocated by the hon. member was to have been taken by the person who first proposed a traffic light at an intersection it would never have been installed.

Justice

[Jane Stewart, Liberal, Brant, ON]

Mr. Speaker, several women in my riding are extremely concerned about the ability of defence lawyers to subpoena the confidential records of sexual assault crisis centres for use in court. They are afraid that the protection gained by the rape shield legislation is being eroded as lawyers use a back door to gain access to their confidential information.

What actions will the Minister of Justice consider taking to ensure that the personal records of assault victims remain confidential?

[Allan Rock, Liberal, Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada]

Mr. Speaker, I am well aware of and share the concerns identified by the hon. member.

The House should know that at my direction as Attorney General the federal government intervened in a case recently argued before the Supreme Court of Canada in which the circumstances under which such evidence can be compelled and the circumstances under which it can be introduced at trial were canvassed and argued.

In that case the federal government argued that the Supreme Court of Canada should adopt and strengthen guidelines stipulated by the Court of Appeal of British Columbia to protect sexual assault centres from harassment. The court reserved its judgment and we will await the disposition.

Let me make it clear to the House that if necessary the federal government is prepared to introduce legislation under the Criminal Code to ensure that we strike the right balance between full answer and defence on the one hand and the freedom of sexual assault centres to operate without harassment.

Presence In The Gallery

[The Speaker]

Colleagues, I would like to draw your attention to the presence in the gallery of Mr. Trevor Pinnock, Artistic Director and Principal Conductor of the National Arts Centre Orchestra who will soon be representing Canada in a major European tour.

[Some hon. members]

Hear, hear.

Points Of Order

[Philip Mayfield, Reform, Cariboo—Chilcotin, BC]

Mr. Speaker, for the record I would like to correct a factual error that was made by the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration in answer to my question.

[The Speaker]

Perhaps the hon. member might consider another avenue. Question Period is over. I sense that this would probably be getting us into a debate.

If the hon. member wants to correct something that the hon. member said I would accept that but to correct another member would be out of order.

[Philip Mayfield, Reform, Cariboo—Chilcotin, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I would like to state that I was not a member of the Standing Committee on Citizenship and Immigration at the time the decision was made to have a group of writers write a new oath.

Privilege

[The Speaker]

My colleagues, I am now ready to rule on the question of privilege raised by the hon. member for Saskatoon-Clark's Crossing on February 6, 1995 concerning media disclosure of the report of the Standing Committee on Human Resources Development prior to the report's presentation to the House.

I thank the hon. member for bringing this matter to the attention of the House. The hon. member submits that the privileges of the members of the House of Commons have been breached because this report was given to the media before being tabled in the House.

The hon. member pointed out that until they are presented in the House committee reports should remain confidential. On this he is absolutely correct. However, as all members are aware, the Speaker is loath to intervene in committee matters unless difficulties arising in committee are brought to the attention of the House by way of a report from the committee. This tradition has been outlined by many Speakers before me and in particular by Speaker Fraser on November 7, 1991 in a ruling on a question of privilege involving committee proceedings.

In circumstances similar to those currently before us, a standing committee might decide to examine the matter of a breach of confidentiality and decide to report it to the House. Only then can the Speaker intervene.

Although I do not find a prima facie question of privilege in this situation, the premature release of a committee's confidential information is nonetheless a very serious matter.

In his submission the hon. member further noted that as an associate member of the committee in question he was denied access to the report.

Let me remind the House that the role of associate members, as outlined in Standing Order 104(4), is basically two-fold. They can be designated by a standing committee for membership on a subcommittee it establishes and, as such, become full members of that subcommittee and enjoy all the rights of a permanent member.

They can also serve as substitutes in the committee for which they have been named as associate members, thereby having the same rights as those of the permanent members they are replacing.

However, in the case now before the House these situations did not occur. Furthermore, according to citation 766 in Beauchesne's sixth edition, non-members of a committee normally retire when the committee is about to deliberate upon its report.

Therefore, in this case the fact that the hon. member was not given access to the draft report does not, in the view of the Chair, constitute a breach of his privileges.

Finally, the issue of confidentiality is one of great importance for the House. I would remind all members of their obligation to see to it that the confidentiality of committee deliberations and reports is respected.

Government Response To Petitions

[Peter Milliken, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to Leader of the Government in the House of Commons]

Madam Speaker, pursuant to Standing Order 36(8), I have the honour to table, in both official languages, the government's response to two petitions.

Government Expenditures

[Art Eggleton, Liberal, President of the Treasury Board and Minister responsible for Infrastructure]

Madam Speaker, I am pleased to table, in both official languages, a document that outlines the expenditure management system of the Government of Canada.

Railway Security

[Douglas Young, Liberal, Minister of Transport]

Madam Speaker, pursuant to Standing Order 32(2), I have the honour to table, in both official languages, the report of the committee reviewing the Railway Safety Act.

Management Of Government Spending

[Art Eggleton, Liberal, President of the Treasury Board and Minister responsible for Infrastructure]

Madam Speaker, I am pleased to table before this House a document on the expenditure management system of the Government of Canada, which describes the government's new decision-making process in matters of programs and expenditures.

With this overhaul, the first in 15 years, we ensure the system responds to today's economic and fiscal realities. It recognizes the way this government has been doing business since elected in October, 1993.

To reduce spending to meet our fiscal targets and to free up resources for reallocation to new priorities requires that we make tough spending and program choices. Our ultimate objective is to deliver quality programs and services within the resources that Canadians can afford.

We are demonstrating to Parliament and to all Canadians that we are fulfilling our red book commitment to fund new initiatives through reallocating expenditures, not with new money, not with adding further to the debt, but to set our priorities by reallocating for new expenditure items.

The document outlines the formal mechanisms that will foster greater fiscal responsibility and help this government to meet its targets.

I would like to bring to members' attention some of the system's major features, quite briefly. It formally eliminates central policy reserves. It integrates practically all decisions about spending into the budget planning process. The document clearly outlines the cycle that will now be followed.

We will deliver information on program performance to Parliament in better and more timely ways. Departments will produce documents on the outlook for their program priorities and expenditures over the next few years and provide them to Parliament. These documents will increase parliamentary involvement by assisting the standing committees in fulfilling their mandates to examine future year expenditures, trends and priorities. These outlook documents are new to this Parliament and expand the involvement and role of members of Parliament in the budgeting and estimates process.

We will adjust these processes over the next few years. It will take some evolutionary time as we gain experience with them.

I am confident that they will help us make the difficult decisions that are involved in providing quality services and reducing the cost of government.

[Richard Bélisle, Bloc, La Prairie, QC]

Madam Speaker, I must tell the President of the Treasury Board that I will carefully read the document he has just tabled on the expenditure management system of the Government of Canada.

Like all Quebecois and Canadian taxpayers, I am concerned about the current management of federal public expenditures. In view of the information supplied to us every year by the Auditor General, it is high time for the federal government to make an in-depth review of its expenditures and, above all, of its management practices.

I hope the document tabled today will address the concerns voiced by parliamentarians and that the proposed improvements will be consistent with the auditor general's recommendations.

The criticisms expressed by the auditor general regarding program evaluation, for instance, should be taken into account. Given the abysmal performance of the Canadian government in the area of program evaluation, the Bloc Quebecois hopes this new document will contain not only new tools to more adequately inform parliamentarians of public expenditures, but also real solutions to evaluate the results of such programs.

Each year, the auditor general presents us with an impressive list of waste in the use of public funds, and the government must, as a first step, clean up its expenditures before it can justify cutting programs.

By eliminating the central policy reserves, the government will lose its flexibility to fund new projects. Since such projects will be funded by reallocating moneys committed elsewhere, the government must clearly express its priorities for the coming years.

The Bloc Quebecois will be keeping a very close watch on the political choices to be announced in the upcoming budget. I would also like to take the opportunity to congratulate the minister for expressing himself so well in French.

[John Williams, Reform, St. Albert, AB]

Madam Speaker, if I have to congratulate the President of the Treasury Board on the introduction of this policy it must surely be with a very small c .

The country is crying out for cuts, elimination of waste, downsizing, less government, and yet the number one item in the minister's statement is that he will formally eliminate central policy reserves. Surely we could do much better than this.

There is nothing in this statement about departmental cuts or elimination of departments. The minister is shuffling the policy chairs on the deck of the Titanic . These policies provide a different look at a serious but old problem of runaway deficits. There is not one single word in this statement about cuts, about smaller government, about downsizing the civil service.

We can only say that we are extremely disappointed in the statement and we look for more, bigger and better news in the budget.

Committees Of The House

[Peter Milliken, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to Leader of the Government in the House of Commons]

Madam Speaker, I have the honour to table today the 60th report of the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs regarding the membership of the Standing Committee on Human Rights and the Status of Disabled Persons.

If the House gives its consent, I intend to move that the 60th report be concurred in later today.

I also have the honour to present the 61st report of the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs regarding changes to the Standing Orders as they relate to the printing of papers and evidence of standing committees.

Madam Speaker, I think you will find unanimous consent of the House to dispense with the reading of the 60th report of the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs. If the House gives its consent I move that the 60th report of the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs presented to the House earlier this day be concurred in.

(Motion agreed to.)