Debates of May 4th, 1995

Members Of Parliament Retiring Allowances Act

[The Acting Speaker (Mrs. Maheu)]

I am sure the hon. member has forgotten that we do not discuss the presence or non-presence of members in the House.

[John Solomon, NDP, Regina—Lumsden, SK]

Madam Speaker, Bill C-85 has a double dipping feature. I might add that I introduced a private members' bill which calls for addressing the real double dipping issue. My bill on double dipping is not included in Bill C-85 but I propose it be considered. Members of Parliament who are elected and receive pensions or other income would have their MP salaries reduced dollar for dollar with respect to the pensions they are receiving.

I say this because a host of members of Parliament stand in this House from time to time and call for a reduction of this or a bidding down of that. They are receiving huge pensions, whether they are military pensions like the Reform Party members, or MLA pensions like the Reform Party members, or municipal pensions or provincial government pensions or pensions from companies or government agencies, boards and commissions.

Those members stand and say: "Let us cut this and cut that because we are already getting $61,000 a year or $41,000 in big pensions". Canadians have to be aware of that. I would like to see this bill adopted by this House. If you are receiving a $60,000 a year pension, then you can serve your country for a $60,000 pension plus $4,000 more to make up the difference between the member of Parliament salary and the money already being received from the public treasury.

However, I do not see the Reform members standing up and talking about this, or even the Liberal government members. However I would ask members to consider that.

With respect to the money purchase recommendation I have said the NDP government in Saskatchewan and New Democrats across this country have led pension reform. We have had a tradition of working toward a fair plan. To ensure fairness the Liberal government must appoint an independent commission to review this legislation to ensure it is fair for taxpayers and plan benefactors. As long as MPs are setting their own benefits, Canadian taxpayers will believe benefits are too generous.

I might add that Saskatchewan is a model yet again today. It has led Canada for 16 years in pension reform but today it introduced pension legislation yet one more time. It has announced a series of reforms to the MLA pensions which are deemed by the Canadian Taxpayers Federation and the National Citizens' Coalition already to be the fairest in the land.

I quote from an article by the Association of Saskatchewan Taxpayers:

The pension plan for Saskatchewan MLAs elected after 1979 is one of the fairest political pension plans in Canada. For every dollar these MLAs contribute to their pension fund, taxpayers match it by $1. MLAs can only draw benefits based on what their own fund earns.

This is called a defined contribution plan which is forced to pay for itself and therefore will not develop an unfunded liability. The only province with a more taxpayer friendly plan is Alberta which has no plan.

The article goes on:

The Canadian Taxpayers Federation has called on other provincial and federal politicians to adopt the 1979 Saskatchewan model of reform, with one exception which was noted in the May 1994 issue of The Taxpayer . The politicians of 1979 refused to lead by example and hoarded the rich old pension plan for themselves. This one catch in the scenario keeps growing uglier since we first took issue with it.

In response to the last part, the Saskatchewan government has rolled back the pre-1979 pension plan for members. It has capped the pension for current members who are contributing to a defined benefit plan at 70 per cent, based on four-year averages. This will expand restrictions as well in the new bill on double dipping to include members of the House of Commons, members of the Canadian Senate, judges of any court and any employment or service paid for by the Government of Canada or any other province or territory.

Saskatchewan has gone one step further in double dipping as well as the pension plan. It will eliminate the special pension allowance for the premier that was introduced in the 1960s by Liberal Premier Ross Thatcher.

I call on the Liberal government to refer the matter of the Prime Minister's bonus of $50,000 at age 65 to an independent commission. The Liberal government should take some leadership and eliminate the wealthy Prime Minister's special bonus, as Premier Roy Romanow has done in Saskatchewan with his pension and those of members who served in the legislature prior to 1979.

In summary, I appreciate the concern and the interest of Canadian taxpayers on this issue. Bill C-85 goes a long way in addressing the major concerns of Canadians. However, regardless of what we do, when MPs produce and pass legislation respecting their own salary and benefits, Canadians will always perceive it to be too generous.

I ask the government to consider this aspect and not to refer the bill to the procedures and House affairs committee, which is a nice good old club of MPs, but to refer the legislation to an independent commission and let it establish once and for all, apart from elected members, what our pay and benefits should be.

[Elwin Hermanson, Reform, Kindersley—Lloydminster, SK]

Madam Speaker, I enjoyed listening to the comments of the hon. member for Regina-Lumsden. He expressed his concern about double dipping which of course I share.

Examples of double dipping cross many party lines. The three old parties are all guilty. One person who comes to mind is Ed Broadbent, former leader of the federal NDP who is double dipping at this very moment.

However, the member talked about those who have served in the military or in other levels of government and then come to Parliament as also being double dippers.

I would like to give an example. Someone has served in the military for 25 or 30 years, or someone has served at a lower level of government for 20 or 30 years, has made it a career, paid into an actuarially sound pension, not like the MPs pension which is funded four to one, five to one by the taxpayers for every dollar that we contribute. I am talking about actuarially sound pensions. Is he suggesting that these people should not collect their pensions after a long and distinguished career of service in these areas?

[John Solomon, NDP, Regina—Lumsden, SK]

Madam Speaker, I appreciate the question from the Reform House leader.

I would like to make two points. First, two months ago the former leader of the New Democratic Party announced that he would not be receiving his pension while he was employed by the government. He terminated his benefits two or three months ago. As always, the member is misinformed. The former NDP leader is not receiving two incomes.

Second, the member is suggesting that military pensions or certain government pensions are actuarially sound. The big news for members of the Reform Party, to which I would ask them to listen very carefully, is that these defined benefit plans are not funded totally right now. They have massive unfunded liabilities.

Provincial-federal plans are short billions of dollars and additional revenues have to be pumped into them to meet the defined benefit aspect of the plan. As leaders of the country we should undertake to change our plan, make it a money purchase plan. From there we should go to the various departments and try to negotiate that with the various unions to ensure that the public sector is doing what the Saskatchewan public sector is doing.

I might add to the House leader that the Saskatchewan public sector has had a money purchase plan not since 1979 but since 1977. Even though it has had that plan since 1977-that is almost 20 years ago now-its defined benefit plan, which was well run over the years, is still about $2 billion unfunded in terms of future liability on the part prior to 1977. This is something that the Reform members should feel quite concerned about.

With respect to the last question that the member for Kindersley-Lloydminster asked, should people who are receiving public pensions serve in the House and receive an MP's salary in addition to that? I say not because that is the real double dipping.

You are getting a public pension and then serving the House of Commons and getting an MP's salary.

Members stand up in the House and say: "Let us cut this. Let us cut that. By the way, let us also cut low income people. Let us cut jobs. Let us cut medicare. Let us cut social services. Let us cut education. Let us cut everything because I am all right, Jack. I have a big income. I have a big pension". That is the message of the Reform Party.

Canadians see through this very thin argument which has no merit whatsoever. It is good rhetoric when no one else knows the facts. When people know the facts, I am sure they will make a decision with respect to whether the Reform's argument holds water.

[Jim Silye, Reform, Calgary Centre, AB]

Madam Speaker, just under two years ago Canadians sent a clear message to Ottawa that they were tired of the status quo, of hypocritical politicians and subsequently voted in 205 rookies.

My speech is to those rookies and my message is, let us not let the veterans corrupt us. When the voters fired the former frontbenchers, the former backbenchers and former prime ministers, they took away their power but for most not their pay cheques. As taxpayers we will be paying them for life 75 per cent of the average of their best six years of salary if they served 15 years.

The issue before us today is the MP pension plan, technically described as two separate items, the members of Parliament retirement allowance and the retirement compensation allowance. This is because the pension plan for parliamentarians was excessively generous and would not have been accepted as a registered pension plan under the Income Tax Act so the politicians split it into two.

I will be talking a lot about double standards. That is my first example of a double standard, one for politicians and one for the rest of Canadians.

An MP currently contributes a total of 11 per cent of the sessional indemnity to obtain pension benefits. Four per cent is applied to their retirement allowance while 7 per cent is applied to the compensation allowance. That is a sneaky way of getting around it. For additional benefits available, an MP with additional duties such as serving as a minister, there is the same split of contributions: 4 per cent to basic and 7 per cent to additional exists.

Under Bill C-85 these percentages and the amount of the salary that they can contribute has been reduced from 11 per cent to 9 per cent. Here we have the basis for a plan that is fully indexed, completely immune to inflation and not available to people in the private sector.

In the name of justice and fairness, I urge the government to go further than it has in Bill C-85 and bring all members, past and present, out of the ivory tower, back to earth and back to reality. I plead with them to show some leadership by example, like Reform Party members.

We have pledged not to take an MP pension in its current form even if this smoke and mirrors bill is passed. Many of us, whether we can afford to or not, have also taken a 10 per cent cut, not because MPs make too much money but because as leaders we know that Canadians will need to sacrifice in the near future and are sacrificing now probably. We are prepared to lead by example at the top, no more double standards, one for politicians and one for the rest of Canadians. We challenge the government to follow our lead because simply put, it is the right thing for it to do especially when it asks Canadians to sacrifice.

Personally, I would like to thank the government and the Prime Minister for allowing Reformers to opt out of the pension plan. It is unfortunate it is available only to the class of '93 and not the class of '97. This is a one shot deal.

Nevertheless provinces like Alberta, that eliminated the government pension plan altogether, will continue to lead by example. It shows integrity. They do not just talk about it. Most important, it sets a higher standard for politicians.

I would encourage all Liberal rookies, to whom I am addressing my speech today, to consider opting out with the Reformers. Weigh it against being voted out by the Canadian public in 1997.

How can the Minister of Human Resources Development complain about 25,000 auto workers withdrawing $70 million annually from the UIC fund when taxpayers paid out an estimated $158 million in 1992 to cover revenue shortfalls in the MP pension fund and currently pay in excess of $2 million a year to do exactly what he is criticizing auto workers of doing? That is hypocrisy.

How can the Minister of Finance nickel and dime RRSP contribution limits in his budget without addressing his own retirement compensation allowance that taxpayers fund more than he does?

The hypocrisy of the Liberal government on this issue is truly disheartening. Liberals promised to reform the gold plated MP pension plan but with Bill C-85 all they have done is nibble around the edges. Canadians will continue to fork out millions of dollars to former cabinet ministers and backbenchers.

The Prime Minister takes great pride in stating that MPs are held accountable at election time. That is when Canadians have their say about the government's performance. If Canadians say that the government stinks and sends it packing like the Tories, these members will still be looked after for life by the Canadian

taxpayers. We may fire them, Canada, but we will continue to pay millions of dollars to look after them.

That is why we are opting out. We feel there are much better ways to look after our futures than this current double standard: one for politicians and one for the rest of Canadians. It is as if the pension plan is a separate UI program for the aristocrats, the select elected few who are better treated than the ordinary Canadian and are somehow, because they serve their country, a cut above the rest.

The Prime Minister scored great political points in opposition when he tried to call the Tories back to the House during the summer to pass pension reform legislation. At the time he stated: "If she"-Kim Campbell-"recalls Parliament we would pass it in one day". That is how fast he would have moved in opposition. It sounds great, but what did he do once his party went over to the other side of the House and he became the Prime Minister? He waited a whole year for 52 more MPs, 46 of whom were Liberals, to qualify for their golden parachutes which this bill protects.

We have three tiers, which I will get to later, of pension qualifiers. Is it any wonder then that some of us on this side of the House question the double standard and the arrogance surrounding the government on this issue?

[John Solomon, NDP, Regina—Lumsden, SK]

Mr. Speaker, I call a quorum count.

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. Adams)]

The hon. member for Regina-Lumsden has made a quorum call. I see a quorum at the present time.

[Jim Silye, Reform, Calgary Centre, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I would appreciate it greatly if you added the extra five minutes this took on to my speech, please.

Let me outline some of the many double standards regarding pensions contained in Bill C-85. It is fully indexed against inflation. This feature is not available in the private sector with the exception of maybe one of the richest companies in the private sector. This indexation costs a lot of money. Members do not contribute enough for that privilege. There is one standard for the elected politician. Yet the ordinary hard working Canadian taxpayer who looks after their own future in the private sector does not have that same opportunity, that same privilege, but a politician does. It is a double standard.

The second point is double dipping will not end for former members, past colleagues of the House like Joe Clark who is currently on the payroll and is receiving his pension plus his salary.

[John Solomon, NDP, Regina—Lumsden, SK]

Mr. Speaker, on a point of order, there are no Reform members in the House. I call quorum.

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. Adams)]

I will ask the clerk to count the members present.

And the count having been taken:

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. Adams)]

I do not see a quorum. I would ask that the bells be sounded.

And the bells having rung:

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. Adams)]

A quorum is present, resuming debate.

[John Williams, Reform, St. Albert, AB]

Mr. Speaker, on a point of order, the member for Regina-Lumsden made reference to the fact that there were no Reform members in the House. There are two things I would like to bring to his attention. That statement is completely incorrect. There are Reform members in the House.

I understand the rules do not allow members to speak of members not being present in the House. I want to ensure the record will show there are and have been Reform members in the House at all times.

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. Adams)]

The member is correct. We do not refer to the presence or absence of members in the House. I ask that all members abide by that regulation.

[Peter Milliken, Liberal, Kingston and the Islands, ON]

Mr. Speaker, on a point of order. I wish to point out that members of the House are in the lobbies, many of them having lunch. It is lunchtime, after all. This perpetual set of quorum calls is nothing but a delay tactic on the part of the hon. member for Regina-Lumsden.

The hon. member has flown the coop and there is not a single New Democrat in the House and there has not been all morning except for him. If those people do not show up for the debate and do not participate in the House they should be defeated by their electors for their non-attendance which is perpetual.

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. Adams)]

I think we are engaged in debate. Unless there is another point of order, resuming debate.

[Jim Silye, Reform, Calgary Centre, AB]

Mr. Speaker, if this is all intended to get me upset, ruffled and riled it will not work. I will continue along pointing out and showing the double standard of the government, the double standard with which it holds itself in much higher esteem than the rest of the Canadian public.

I was trying to point out all of the double standards contained within Bill C-85 and it should be made the same as the private sector. I pointed out the full indexation which protects the amount of money politicians get against inflation and not available in the private sector.

Former members are not touched by this legislation who are double dipping. It is only if they get reappointed at the end of this term. That is another double standard. Why leave them alone? Why leave them untouched? They are the ones who started all this. They are the ones who started giving themselves

these generous benefits. Why is the government protecting them?

The accrual rate has been reduced from 5 per cent to 4 per cent. That is admirable. It is a reduction. It will reflect in savings. There is no question about that. It still is double that of the private sector. The private sector is 2 per cent limited by the Income Tax Act. This defies the Income Tax Act and it goes to 4 per cent. The Liberal government is bragging now that this will increase to 19 years before members get 75 per cent of their six best years. In the private sector at 2 per cent it will take 35 years to get 70 per cent of their salary. It is a double standard; one for a cut above the rest and the other for the ordinary Canadian.

Pension income in the private sector is limited to 70 per cent of an individual's three best years, but for those in Ottawa who are a cut above the rest it is 75 per cent. It is a 5 per cent difference, but it is still a difference. It is a double standard.

The maximum contribution in the private sector is between 5 per cent and 7 per cent of an individual's salary, which is matched by the employer. Here in the House it is 9 per cent, in the Senate it is 9 per cent, and it is matched three and a half times. It has been reduced from six to one to about three and a half to one. That reduction is good. It is headed in the right direction. Come down another 2.5 and I think the government might have a plan which would be acceptable to the Canadian public. Once again, there is a double standard.

Bill C-85 reduces the six-year eligibility rule, which was ridiculous. No one should qualify for a pension for life after only six years of service. I commend and compliment the government for that. In its place it introduced the requirement of the age of 55 for a fully indexed pension; once again, another example of the double standard. In the private sector the age for retirement is 65. If a person chooses to collect their pension before age 65 they receive a reduced amount. That is not so with politicians. They are fully indexed at age 55 with no penalties, away we go. It is 10 years better than the private sector and that should not be. Cabinet ministers have no cap on the level they can contribute from their salaries to the pension plan.

We now have a three tier plan. We have the trough regular plan for all those members of Parliament who were here prior to 1988, such as the Deputy Prime Minister and the Prime Minister. We have the trough light plan, which applies to all the rookies in the House, the class of `93. If they are dumb enough to take it, if they are dumb enough not to force the rest of their veterans to follow along with them, then that is the way it is. Then there is the trough stout plan. If a member has higher responsibilities and makes a little extra money there is no cap. We have trough regular, trough light and trough stout. Those are three plans for politicians, who are a cut above the rest. There is only one plan in the private sector. It is another example of the double standard.

Why not cut out the previous members' generous plans, or the previous members who are untouched? Why have this trough stout? Why not reduce it by even 5 per cent to 10 per cent, or buy them out rather than paying them $1 million, $1.5 million or $2 million over 20 or 30 years? Buy them out for $.5 million and be done with it. Let us clean it up and fix it properly once and for all. It is time to cut our losses.

Ministers receive a bonus on top of their salaries; not a bonus, it is extra remuneration for their extra workload. There is no limit on how big their pensions can become. They are not limited to the 75 per cent of the six best years. The Prime Minister and people who have been here for 30 years could end up getting 110 per cent of their salary when they are finished. That is not so in the private sector. That is not so for the rookies of the class of `93. That is not so if a member remains a backbencher, a parliamentary secretary or chairs a standing committee. That is a double standard.

I do not understand why the Liberal rookies did not squawk more. They do have a chance to lead by example. They also have a chance to opt out. I hope they do because Canadians will be looking at whether people opt out and try to have a sensible plan. They might be voted out if they do not opt out.

The bill sends a message that politicians are not ordinary people but a cut above the rest. That is why people do not like politicians. That is what politicians have come to represent: self-serving interests rather than serving the interests of the Canadian public.

Reformers would end full indexation of pensions. We would postpone eligibility for benefits until at least age 65, with accessibility at a reduced rate. Eligibility would be further postponed by the amount of time in which the person was already paid prior to age 65. We would subject the MP pension plan to a tax back according to a formula identical to that of the old age security program.

The Reform caucus has already approved the concept of privately purchased pensions under which future RRSP contributions for sitting MPs would be matched by the government up to the legal limit for contributions.

After eliminating the current gold plated pension plan the House could agree to a proper and balanced compensation package which would be more palatable and compatible with Canadian taxpayers.

Here is my personal recommendation which is certainly debatable but which should satisfy our critics. Whereas individual citizens from time to time wish to enter the public sector to help shape legislation and help make a contribution to Canadian society, whereas it is desirable to attract individual citizens from all walks of life to Parliament regardless of income, a reasonable compensation package should be offered to have this

great institution in the hands of members of Parliament more interested in serving their country rather than for the pay, perks and privileges without inflicting undue financial hardships.

This is an important job. Only 295 people in Canada have it at one time and they must balance personal sacrifices with the public interest. Given the current job description and people's expectations, let us get rid of the impression that somehow MPs are special or deserve something better than the private sector.

What politicians do is freeze their salaries so they can stand up in front of Canadians and say: "We too have made sacrifices". Then they overcompensate with this high gold plated pension plan.

Everyone in the House would agree that if we are truly to address the pension plan we have to talk about our salaries. That option is not open because our salaries are frozen. The government has conveniently blocked real pension reform from all possible angles.

I know that except for Ottawa and area MPs all of us need to spend extra money on a second residence and extra transportation. Therefore let us come clean with Canadian taxpayers and say: "Here are the costs of being an MP. We need a second set of everything. If you want somebody to represent you, it has to be paid for or very few will be willing to serve".

The job with its responsibilities compared with the private sector is at least at a senior executive level and is deserving of a $12,000 per month salary perhaps. Why not get rid of the MP pension plan and the tax free living allowance, the tax free expense allowance, limit members to two terms and offer a taxable salary at $12,000 per month wherein members look after their own expenses. These are my personal points of view and do not reflect the party's point of view whatsoever. MPs should be paid more but once they are removed from office Canadians should not be on the hook for about a million dollars per member. They should be given a private sector pension plan into which they pay 5 per cent matched by the government on a one to one basis.

What is so hard to understand about that? Why this six to one, three and a half to one, 11 per cent, 9 per cent? This is confusing. Upon departure, I would get a one time, one-year severance to help re-enter the workforce and reintegrate into my previous life.

This is no different from the private sector and would make the voters and politicians happy. It is an honest, clean, simple, visible, understandable and, most important, above board recommendation. The rookies in the House have to understand it is not so much politicians' basic pay that angers Canadians, it is the gold plated pensions, the tax free allowance, the junkets, the things unavailable and in some cases illegal for those in the private sector.

The days of pomp and pageantry are over and it is time to start paying politicians what they are worth, no more and no less; no golden handshakes, no fancy accounting and no more double talk. Rookies of the House, it is up to you, it is up to us.

[Sarkis Assadourian, Liberal, Don Valley North, ON]

Mr. Speaker, can the member identify a member in the House who receives a $60,012 annual pension from Alberta, who receives $64,400 MP pension and donates 15 per cent of it? Last year, he received $21,300 in an expense account for a grand total of $151,052. Can he identify this MP for the audience in the House and for the viewers in Canadian living rooms?

[Jim Silye, Reform, Calgary Centre, AB]

Madam Speaker, the member's own President of the Treasury Board this morning stood up in the House and gave the first intervention on this bill. He introduced the bill.

In the bill the President of the Treasury Board defined double dipping. Double dipping was defined by the government-in his own words clearly and specifically, and he did not use the legalese language-as a former member of the federal government receiving remuneration for a job after they are finished serving the Canadian public.

The member the Liberal MP asked me about is not guilty of double dipping. It is not double dipping. This individual served in the provincial legislature. This individual resigned from the provincial legislature. This individual offered his services to the Canadian public on a federal basis.

He made it quite clear he was receiving a pension from the provincial government. He made it quite clear how much the amount was. He was totally above board and open. He did not run from this topic. He did not hide from this topic. He asked the voters in his riding and constituency. He said: "You know my circumstances, you know where I have been, you know where I want to go. If you want to send me there, I will be getting this from the provincial government and I will be getting that from the federal government". And they elected him.

We came here and we said that the MP pension plan is too extravagant, too generous, too gold plated. We are making some sense. We are getting to the government, because it agreed with us. The Liberals have changed it; they have improved it. But it is like everything else: they just go a little in our direction and claim they have gone all the way. It is like bragging. They are bragging they have done what the Canadians need.

Yes, I commend them for reducing the cost of the pensions and making it a little fairer. They are saving $3 million a year. Nobody's denying that. But if you have something wrong with the plumbing or the electrical in your house, fix it right while you are there. When you are doing renovations it is expensive. This whole process is costing a lot of money. Why waste all of that money? Why not do it right? Why not fix it all?

[An hon. member]

We will have to do it again.

[Jim Silye, Reform, Calgary Centre, AB]

Now it will all have to be done again.

My point is that now that we have a clear definition of double dipping and we know what double dipping is, maybe the members of the government themselves had better find out what that definition is and stop giving the cheap shots to the hon. member for Lethbridge.

[Sarkis Assadourian, Liberal, Don Valley North, ON]

Madam Speaker, it seems to me the hon. member agrees that if someone serves this House for six years and gets his pension then he can go to the provincial government, serve there, and get another pension and it will be okay.

I cannot follow the logic. A pension is a pension is a pension. They always make the point that there is only one taxpayer in this country. In this case, the taxpayers of this country are paying $151,052 for a member of Parliament who is not even here to defend himself.

[Jim Silye, Reform, Calgary Centre, AB]

Madam Speaker, I gather the member opposite said he did not understand my logic. I do not understand how that could happen. Let me try to be really clear.

I talked about a double standard. I talked about a method of politicians paying themselves remuneration that is excessive and that is different from what is available in the private sector.

We are no better than the people we serve. We are only one among them who has been asked to serve because we offered to serve. That does not then put us at a higher, loftier level where we deserve twice or three times the benefits, protecting ourselves from the rules of the workplace they have to live with. That is what is wrong with this system.

Nobody deserves a pension for life after six years of service. The government corrected that. That is a heck of a step for this government, and I give it a strong thank you and a strong compliment for doing that. That is recognizing one of the things that is wrong with it. The Liberals deserve credit for listening and I applaud them for it.

However, they introduced 55 as the qualifying age, fully indexed with full payment, when in the private sector it is 65 years of age. If you want to get it prior to 65, you would get a lesser amount. None of that is comparable.

Why is it this way for us in the House? It is all from the old-line politicians; it is not from us rookies. It is not from the Reformers. We came here to clean it up. I am asking the 205 rookies, why the heck are we not standing up instead of letting these cabinet ministers that have been here before push their weight around? We know what is right. Let us do that.

We are ordinary Canadians serving the public. We should get fair compensation, fair remuneration. It is at a senior executive level. Pay us $150,000 a year. We will look after our own pensions. We will have it matched by government. People will accept that. But these two or three triple standards, this trough regular, trough light stuff is getting ridiculous. This is all we are saying.

I am frustrated. I should not have become frustrated, but I am frustrated when I try to make sense, I try to give reason and I want to work with the government so the integrity of all politicians will rise, and they insist on saying: "No, no, no; we deserve it".

It is just like the mileage. Why does an MP deserve 37 cents and the private sector businesses with salesmen get 31 cents for their travel allowance on gasoline? That is ridiculous. It is another example of a double standard.

Why can this government not get it through its head that the Reform Party is only trying to bring some sanity and integrity back into this House? We are on their side, but they will not listen.

[Ian McClelland, Reform, Edmonton Southwest, AB]

Madam Speaker, as I listen to this debate unfold today, and I recognize there are good people on all sides of the House, I wonder what it is about the pension that leads to good governance. That is really what this debate is all about.

Does this pension in any way help Canada have good governance? Has it over the past 30 years had good governance? By any rational score card the answer would have to be no. We happen to be $550 billion in the hole and we are increasing our debt to the tune of $120 million a day, so that we are in debt now, every single Canadian taxpayer, $40,000. That is just the federal part of the national debt.

Then the question is: What is it about a pension that leads to good governance? Does that pension then attract and retain good people in the Parliament of Canada? My submission is no, it does not. In my view, after being here for a year and a half, I think the governance of our country would be immeasurably improved in three simple steps. The first is to get rid of the MP pension plan. We should be here doing what is right, without having this become a lifelong job and then return to the private sector.

I ask the member for Calgary West if he would respond to this question.

[The Acting Speaker (Mrs. Maheu)]

I am sorry, there are about 30 seconds left. If you would like an answer to your question, which will have to be 30 seconds, will you please put it now?