Debates of Sept. 22nd, 1995

Petitions

[Margaret Bridgman, Reform, Surrey North, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to present three petitions to the House today from the residents of Surrey North and other residents of Canada.

The first two petitions draw to the attention of the House the inadequacy of Bill C-68, the proposed gun legislation, toward the solving of violent crime. These petitioners are requesting that Parliament call on the attorney general to bring in a bill that would address violent crime.

[Margaret Bridgman, Reform, Surrey North, BC]

The third petition, Mr. Speaker, raises concern regarding the standards of training and education of aircraft maintenance engineers. These petitioners are praying that the minister would leave the existing legislation alone for the licensing of aircraft maintenance engineers.

[Anna Terrana, Liberal, Vancouver East, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I have the pleasure of submitting a petition on behalf of the residents of Vancouver.

The petition concerns the issue of sexual orientation. The petitioners state that discrimination based on one's sexual orientation is real and hurtful and contravenes the Canadian charter, and further that all forms of families based on financial and emotional interdependency are meaningful and important to the social well-being of this country.

The petitioners therefore call on Parliament to amend all legislation that discriminates against homosexuals and to recognize all relationships of mutual love, support, and dependency.

Questions On The Order Paper

[Peter Milliken, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to Leader of the Government in the House of Commons]

Mr. Speaker, I would ask that all questions on the Order Paper be allowed to stand.

[The Deputy Speaker]

Shall all questions stand?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

The House resumed consideration of the motion that Bill C-94, an act to regulate interprovincial trade in and the importation for commercial purposes of certain manganese based substances, be read the second time and referred to a committee; and of the amendment.

Manganese Based Fuel Additives Act

[The Deputy Speaker]

Is the House ready for the question?

[Some hon. members]

Question.

[The Deputy Speaker]

The question is on the amendment. Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the amendment?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[Some hon. members]

No.

[The Deputy Speaker]

All those in favour of the amendment will please say yea.

[Some hon. members]

Yea.

[The Deputy Speaker]

All those opposed will please say nay.

[Some hon. members]

Nay.

[The Deputy Speaker]

In my opinion the nays have it.

And more than five members having risen:

[The Deputy Speaker]

Pursuant to Standing Order 45(6), the recorded division stands deferred until Monday, September 25, at the ordinary hour of adjournment.

[Peter Milliken, Liberal, Kingston and the Islands, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I think you would find the consent of the House to call it 1.30 p.m.

[The Deputy Speaker]

Is there unanimous consent to call it 1.30 p.m.?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[The Deputy Speaker]

The House will now proceed to the consideration of Private Members' Business as listed on today's Order Paper.

Canada Post Corporation

[Paul Crête, Bloc, Kamouraska—Rivière-Du-Loup, QC]

moved:

That, in the opinion of this House, the government should ask Canada Post Corporation to integrate into its development plan a strategy promoting the local development of regions and municipalities in Quebec and Canada.

Mr. Speaker, I find it very interesting to rise today in this House on this motion, especially as the minister responsible for Canada Post Corporation announced, a few weeks ago, that a committee would carry out an in depth review of the corporation.

A while ago, I presented the motion which is on today's Order Paper and through which I want the House to convey to this committee that, from now on, Canada Post Corporation should integrate into its development plan a strategy promoting the local development of regions and municipalities in Quebec and Canada.

We must say that, in this area, things were not too great in the past.

Under the previous federal government, the reform of Canada Post Corporation was entirely and exclusively focused on cutting costs, regardless of the impact on the rural and urban communities affected by post office closures. I would even venture to say that this strategy was part of what brought down upon the government the wrath of the public and caused its demise in the fall of 1993.

I also believe that it resulted in the moratorium banning post office closures which has been in effect since the fall of 1993. However, to this day, the government has made no effort to correct past mistakes. Take, for instance, the village of Saint-Clément, in my riding, where the post office was closed against the will of 100 per cent of the population who clearly proved that it wanted and needed a post office. The previous government turned a deaf ear and so did the current one, arguing that the moratorium did not cover the previous government's mistakes, and that the case was closed.

Now it seems the review committee, which will examine the mandate of Canada Post Corporation, will be open to public complaints concerning postal services so it is important that we give that committee the opportunity to hear the opinion of Quebecers and Canadians on the operations of the corporation and on its contribution to the local development in every region of the country.

Today, we can ask ourselves, as did the committee on rural development in Canada after a thorough examination of the post office issue: Is it possible to modernize Canada Post Corporation and prepare it for the twenty first century? Could we not adopt a new approach, a new form of marketing for postal services and not a defensive attitude like the one which led to the closing of many post offices, not because the clientele was decreasing, but because the post master was retiring? Such measures were totally absurd and it was written quite clearly in the mandate of Canada Post Corporation. It caused some ludicrous situations. Today there are post masters in post offices where clients are few while certain very busy post offices have been closed.

So we really must seize this opportunity given us by the review committee soon to be created. I sincerely hope this committee will be in place very soon. It is important because we should be announcing next week that the review committee will be operational and will review all the issues concerning Canada Post Corporation.

Rural development is not the only issue, there are many other aspects but my motion deals precisely with the local development of rural regions.

I would like to give a very concrete example of that. In the riding of Rimouski-Témiscouata, the village of Saint-Honoré played the game and agreed, four or five years ago, to have its post office closed and the mandate given to a corner store owner.

This owner has now realized that this activity was not profitable at all and he wants to give up that responsibility. That village is now facing the situation where, in February 1996, it will not have any postal service, because the post office will have been closed and sold. With a short term vision, it was thought that giving the mandate to a corner store for a minimal amount was a good idea, but we now find ourselves in a very serious situation because, according to its current act, Canada Post Corporation is responsible for ensuring mail delivery all across Canada, which will not be done in that area.

There is no real solution on the table. In rural areas, there is often one corner store or one grocery store for every village or municipality, and there may not be much choice but to move the post office many kilometres away. It is not a very interesting prospect at all.

So I think it would be important to look at the postal service not only from a humane perspective-what the moratorium has achieved is very important and I think we must recognize the effect it has had-but also in terms of its future. Would it not be possible to compel Post Canada Corporation to say in its development plan what it intends to do in terms of the information highway, for instance, in our villages? Would it not be a good idea to have, in each of our municipalities, an information highway service point which could be used by the local population?

For example, I can see that in a farming area, where farmers need to know about the latest technology, programs, trade opportunities and information in the field. We may not have yet reached the stage where every farmer has access to the information highway. Canada Post could maybe run some pilot projects to ensure that our municipalities are cut off from the rest of society as little as possible.

Post offices could also provide a fax service. Not everyone can afford to pay $100 or $200 for a fax machine, least of all the people who do not use them very often. Let us take, for example, a senior citizen who suddenly runs into trouble with a department, because a technical document went missing. We cannot expect that citizen to have a fax machine at home, but we could provide such a service through the post offices. This could prove interesting.

Another interesting service the post offices could provide is access to the terminals of Human Resources Development Canada. We are not saying that we are against the current centralization of employment centres, but that is not the issue I want to address because we do think that the centralization process is worthwhile. I think that when people are looking for jobs, they must be able to deal with persons.

However, if the workforce is maintained at its current level, we could add several service points to give access to a program the Department of Human Resources Development is already offering. In order to do so, Canada Post would have to say: "Because of our corporate image and because of the benefits this would entail for individual citizens, we would be ready, as a department, to sell you this equipment". Like they are doing actually. Right now, the installation of these terminals costs about $5000. Canada Post could buy quite a few of these terminals, even though it would mean that it would have to inject several million dollars in this project, but it would give all our citizens access to this information.

You have to remember that Human Resources Development Canada does not provide only job search programs. It also deals with our senior citizens and the pension systems. There is a lot of room for improvement in this area and I think Canada Post should be forced by this House, and by the committee considering this issue, to see that its business plan look at ways not only to provide postal services for less money, but also to do something to improve things at the information level.

Let me give you an example, Sweden has decided to decentralize the processing of income tax returns. Instead of having large processing centres clustered in a single region like we do in Canada, they can have income tax returns from one area processed at the other end of the country in a decentralized way, thanks to computer technology, so that, in every town, people can have a job and work without leaving their community. Thus, the nation's territory can be better used, and a fairer distribution of income is fostered.

I think it is much better to keep regions alive through job transfers than through transfer payments, and people could stay in their own communities. That kind of development is possible with a network like that of Canada Post.

Something else must be taken into account. We should avoid any unwarranted competition. Let me give an example. In my own riding, at the time of the year when income tax returns are processed, Canada Post came up with a pilot project that allowed a bank to sell RRSPs in a given town to residents of the area. That kind of competition was unwarranted because there was a caisse populaire in the town, and it had made investments in capital and salaries so that it could to be located right on the spot year-round.

But the bank, thanks to a profitable contract, did not have to pay back the whole investment and did not have to contribute to rental costs of the place, at least not at 100 per cent. That was unfair

competition. This, in my opinion, should be looked into thoroughly.

I think we should also emphasize the need for public debate and hearings on this issue. Right now, a coalition of private couriers is making representations to have the Canada Post's mandate revised so that they can market their own services in densely populated areas like Montreal, Quebec City, Vancouver, Toronto and all cities with a large enough population. A private company might be able to provide services at a lower cost than the Canada Post Corporation.

The provision of these services must not result in a reduction of services in other regions. If Canada Post suddenly becomes responsible for providing postal services in sparsely populated areas and the private company gets to serve all the profitable areas, we will have an unacceptable situation which, in the medium term, will lead to the disappearance of postal services in many places.

I think that there is a need for public debate, for public hearings, and maybe that is what the Conservatives should have done first before carrying out their reform. They should have asked people what kind of postal services they wanted. It would help everybody understand what the real issues are. Closing a single post office may not look so tragic, but in our rural communities, given the way development is going, it is often a sign that other services are about to disappear, like the school and even the church.

We must find a way to ensure the development of those communities. There may have been some mistakes but, in general, people who founded parishes and helped them grow invested a lot of time and energy in those communities. We should ensure that, in the future, services will be maintained to promote the development, and not the disappearance, of local communities.

This seems important to me; it will be a golden opportunity to see how important the development of local communities is to the government. Is the government really willing to do something interesting in this area?

As a final argument, I will broach another aspect of this issue. In the partnership proposed to Quebecers in the referendum campaign, four or five priority areas are clearly mentioned, such as the monetary union, the movement of people as well as various areas in which there could be an agreement between governments, and Canada Post is one of those areas.

I think the committee that will be given responsibility for these studies, which will not be sitting tomorrow morning but probably after October 30, should plan to study this sort of situation so that, in the future as part of the cooperation to be established between Quebec and Canada after a Yes, it is clear that there are advantages for both sides in agreeing and ensuring the service functions properly.

The entire network of post offices in Quebec and Canada has been paid for by all taxpayers, and will therefore form part of the debt allocation. This may be one of the issues we consider important, one that is included within the agreement, which makes provision very properly for a set of issues to be covered under the partnership, and this one strikes me as important.

In conclusion, the letter carrier unions, postmasters, rural communities and private messenger services are asking that this study be as public as possible, so we are sure we do not end up with a monopoly or making decisions that have an impact over a number of years in the future without the community being consulted. I think the public should be informed on this.

When Canada Post will be forced by Parliament to integrate into its development plan a strategy promoting the local development of regions and municipalities in Quebec and Canada, it will know that it is part of its mandate and it will be able to take it into account in its decisions and to avoid the mess of three or four years ago in this sector.

This will make it possible to correct at last significant errors that are still with us today, symbolic mistakes such as the decision concerning the Saint-Clément post office and the one concerning Saint-Honoré and other such examples throughout Quebec and Canada that I gave today. Canada Post must become a corporation that is as modern all over Quebec and Canada as it is in Ottawa where it gave itself great facilities. It is a corporation whose clients want to know what services they will get and how good these services will be. I believe that is part of the challenges Quebec and Canada will be facing in the 21th century. Let us seize this opportunity.

[Réginald Bélair, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of Public Works and Government Services]

Mr. Speaker, the motion proposed by the member for Kamouraska-Rivière-du-Loup is rather strange. It reads:

That, in the opinion of this House, the government should ask Canada Post Corporation to integrate into its development plan a strategy promoting the local development of regions and municipalities in Quebec and Canada.

I say strange because Canada Post Corporation is already promoting the local development of regions and municipalities in Quebec and Canada. Canada Post is everywhere. For instance, there are now over 18,370 retail outlets where one can buy stamps and other products as well as postal services. In Quebec, there are 3,451 outlets. Over 75 per cent of these are presently owned by the private sector. Many of them are found in drugstores, convenience stores, etc. In fact, over 2,000 of these retail postal outlets are managed by small and medium businesses who gain not only from

the revenues generated, but also from the increased flow of clients in their stores.

For the information of the members, I want to briefly recall the historical background of Canada Post Corporation. Organized postal services in Canada began in 1693, when the government of New France paid Pedro da Silva to take some letters from Montreal to Quebec. In 1755, the government opened the first post office in Halifax. The development of postal services followed that of the transportation network. Postal communications are closely linked with the history of Canada. For 300 years, postal communications helped Canadians keep in touch with each other, reduced distances and thus promoted the exchange of information and distribution of goods.

Today Canada Post Corporation delivers 46 million pieces of mail each business day, which are processed through 23 major mail plants and several other facilities, to nearly 12.3 million addresses in Canada and forwards mail to virtually every country in the world. Clearly what we see is Canada Post contributing to a fundamental part of Canadian life.

In June of 1994 the Canada Post Corporation declared that the new corporation is in business to serve. This is no mere slogan. Canada Post has established it as a new way of life. It is a philosophy the corporation wants to permeate every decision it makes at every level. CPC is transforming itself from an operations based organization asking the customers to meet its requirements to one that will go the extra mile to satisfy customers and meet their needs.

This motion addresses development. The Canada Post Corporation knows a good deal about development. This past year CPC has focussed particular attention on improving and expanding its services to small business. It is aware of just how important small and medium size businesses are to the economic growth of the country. The central focus of its new approach is a program of services to business. It now has two business centres, one in Calgary and one in London. These are one stop resource centres, where customers can obtain a variety of information on postal products and services, and Canada Post staff can help businesses to expand by providing owners with a full range of communications and distribution solutions.

Another example of Canada Post Corporation's commitment to small and medium size business is the fact that it has made preferential rates available to small volume mailers-some members may be aware that special rates were, until very recently, reserved in theory for those with a heavy volume of mail. That is what I call development.

Canada Post is a dynamic commercial crown corporation which competes with the open market throughout Canada. Due to this dynamism, Canada Post's competitors, for example the Canadian Courier Association, have frequently charged Canada Post with unfair business practices. Why? It is simple: they cannot compete.

The allegations of cross subsidization are not true, and some recent media reports have even supported the association's proposal that a federal regulatory body be established to oversee the operations of Canada Post. However, hon. members should know that independent quasi-judicial bodies have examined the charges, and the charges of cross subsidization cannot be sustained, whether they are aimed at Canada Post's priority courier service or at the corporation's purchase of a controlling interest in Purolator courier.

The CCA has never produced any evidence to support its cross subsidization allegations. The Standing Committee on Government Operations, the Bureau of Competition Policy, and the National Transportation Agency have all examined the issue. They have never been substantiated. For example, with regard to Canada Post's purchase of Purolator courier, in which no public funding was involved, the director of the competition bureau concluded in November 1993 that "there are no grounds at this time to believe that cross subsidization has occurred or would occur post-merger with Purolator, which would likely result in a substantial lessening or prevention of competition in the marketplace".

The CCA claims Canada Post Corporation is in unfair competition with CCA members, through a monopoly on what it calls a considerable portion of its business. But it is more than one hundred years since Parliament enacted legislation assigning this exclusive privilege in order to guarantee all Canadians will pay the same prices to have a letter delivered within the country. Canada Post is in business to serve all Canadians and exclusive privilege is the only way Parliament could guarantee all citizens access to universal postal service from coast to coast.

The independent review concluded that Canada Post is not abusing that exclusive privilege. Is the CCA implying that Parliament erred when it gave a monopoly to this fundamental element of Canadian life?

Some may question Canada Post's ability to survive in the age of the information highway. The corporation is quite aware that the evolution of new communications technologies such as E-mail,

facsimile, data transmissions, and electronic funds transfers will impact the outlook of Canada Post's traditional mail services.

The postal service recognizes the move toward electronic transmission of information and it has developed a number of value added electronic services, which combined with an unmatched infrastructure will allow the corporation to provide all Canadians with the services they will need as Canada heads into the 21st century.

The corporation is no stranger to technological developments in the communications industry. Canada Post has been involved for years in electronic messaging and it continues to develop new services for the future.

The motion before the House today asks Canada Post Corporation to promote local development. I know of no better way to do this than through the literacy campaign. Canada Post works closely with literacy groups throughout Canada. It launched a reading game to encourage reading among school children. This game is now part of the curriculum in Newfoundland and New Brunswick, and in Winnipeg. It developed a series of videos to raise motivation and awareness.

The Canada Post Corporation does not need to further, through more regulations, a strategy promoting the local development of regions and municipalities in Quebec and Canada. Why not? It is is simple: it has already done so.

Canada Post recognizes that it plays an important role in the social and economic fabric of Canadian life. Although the member for Kamouraska-Rivière-du-Loup is well intentioned, I cannot support the motion that is before the House.

[Bill Gilmour, Reform, Comox—Alberni, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to address the motion put forward by the member from the Bloc regarding Canada Post.

Motion 403 proposes the government ask Canada Post Corporation to integrate into its development plan a strategy promoting the local development of regions and municipalities in Quebec and in Canada. I have several concerns regarding this motion.

The first issue that needs to be addressed is the wording of the motion, as I find it quite confusing. This motion addresses Quebec and Canada separately, which does not make sense when Quebec is a province within Canada. I fully recognize that we are facing a referendum in Quebec regarding separation. However, the last time I checked Quebec was still a part of Canada. Perhaps legislative counsel could iron out this obvious oversight and clarify the wording so that it simply refers to Canada. Then all provinces will be included using that definition.

Besides the wording of the motion, it is somewhat confusing as to why this motion is being proposed by a separatist in the first place. Canada Post is a Canadian corporation set up to serve Canadians. If the member is so keen on pushing the separatist agenda, why the interest in a Canadian crown corporation? The member simply cannot have it both ways. Surely he does not expect to separate from Canada and then take the crown corporation with him. A separate Quebec will obviously run its own postal system, not one subsidized by the rest of Canada. Canada Post serves Canada, and that includes all the provinces within its borders, nothing more and nothing less.

I also have problems with the fundamental intent of this motion, which suggests that Canada Post be used to prop up declining regions and municipalities. Given that Canada Post is a money losing venture, how does the member propose that it be used to build municipalities and regions? It does not make any sense.

Canada Post's mandate is to best serve the postal needs of Canadians. Getting a letter quickly and as inexpensively as possible from one area of the country to the other should be the primary concern.

Canada Post is a basic service and must fulfil its role as independently as possible, without reliance on government subsidies or unwanted interference.

In 1981 Canada Post Corporation was created and given a mandate that included achieving self-sufficiency while acting at arm's length from the government. At that time Canada Post faced economic uncertainty and was losing $600 million a year. Canada Post has turned its business around in the last 12 years, but there is still plenty of work to be done.

This past year Canada Post lost $70 million, the third loss in five years. Canada Post was forced to increase its stamp price by two cents this year because it claimed to be in such financial trouble. Given that Canada Post is running a deficit, the corporation needs to focus its energy as much as possible on its basic mandate: delivering mail quickly and at the lowest cost.

If Canada Post cannot run its own business, how can we expect it to promote regional development? This smacks of old style, pork barrel politics: full speed ahead and to heck with the costs.

It is fundamental that post offices must be established on a basis of need for service. Location should be selected on the basis of where they will best meet the needs of the local residents, not for buying votes from a town or rewarding political supporters.

Regional development ideas went down with the Titanic , so why are we trying to refloat them here? With any crown corporation, taxpayers need to know that they are getting their money's worth. They want good service and fair prices, not another bloated bureaucracy with a fuzzy mandate incorporating regional development.

We know we have problems with our crown corporations. Canadians need to be assured that their tax dollars are being spent wisely. They want an open, efficient postal system, because Canadians are frustrated with poorly run corporations that ignore their primary role.

A point that particularly frustrates me with current legislation is that I cannot go back to my constituents with any assurances because crown corporations like Canada Post are exempt from access to information inquiries. Why is it that when crown corporations are supported by taxpayers they are at the same time protected by a cloak of secrecy that cannot be accessed under freedom of information? Canada Post has a monopoly on mail delivery, but it refuses to open its books to the public for fear of competition.

Questions have been raised again and again regarding Canada Post competition against other courier services. The Canadian Courier Association has accused Canada Post of using its exclusive mail revenues to subsidize its courier services, yet we cannot find out the answer because the corporation is protected from access to information. Business is complaining that Canada Post has an unfair advantage with its courier services and that they are forcing private enterprise out of business. However, the real story never sees the light of day because the answers are hidden behind this shield of secrecy.

Canada Post claims to have had an independent study done by KPMG to review the matter. Where is the study? We have not seen it. Canada Post refuses to release it. Canada Post protection from public scrutiny only raises more questions.

Questions have been raised about Canada Post's granting of contracts. Bidding for advertising mail services, for example, is obscured and potential bid players are raising questions about the procedures for bidding for services. For example, if a bidder has tendered the lowest bid he or she may not get the contract. The reasons for choosing one bidder over another are completely obscured and there is no way for an individual to find out where their bid sat compared to the others. Exemption from access to information prevents individuals from reviewing the results of any particular contract.

Given that the post office monopoly is under the umbrella of the patronage king himself, the public works minister, it is high time that Canadians were allowed to look into the books and practices of Canada Post. Already we have caught the minister responsible for this crown corporation with his hands in the cookie jar, handing out post office leases to his political supporters in Nova Scotia.

How many other instances of political patronage are there wrapped up in this corporation? Canadians want to know. It is high time the government came clean and put an end to the old style practices within our crown corporations.

Canada Post, like all crown corporations and government agencies, must be accountable. That is first and foremost. Services need to protected and functions run as cost effectively as possible with the least likelihood of incurring public debt.

The government should move Canada Post out of the subsidized role of courier service and ad mail delivery and limit it to what it was designed to do in the first place, pick up and deliver mail.

I cannot support the motion to allow Canada Post to become involved in regional development because it would be a poor business decision and is simply contrary to the primary role of Canada Post.