Debates of Sept. 28th, 1995

Quebec Referendum

[Sheila Copps, Liberal, Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of the Environment]

Mr. Speaker, I would like to table for the record the 12 agreements we have signed. I would also like to inform the hon. member there are 12 other agreements we are working on presently.

I was elected to the House of Commons to speak for Canada. There are many environmental issues which touch all Canadians in the same way. If I drop something in Hamilton harbour it ends up in the water of la fleuve St-Laurent.

If there is any area where there are national needs for a national vision, it is in the area of the environment. Surely the leader of the third party should recognize that.

[Preston Manning, Reform, Calgary Southwest, AB]

Mr. Speaker, the government's unwillingness to recognize public and provincial demand for decentralization in social services, in health care financing and in natural resources management is bad for federal-provincial relations and bad for national unity.

Why does the Prime Minister not remove the centralizers from his cabinet and send a strong signal to Quebec and indeed to all Canadians that federalism can work better by accepting and practising the principle of decentralization?

[Sheila Copps, Liberal, Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of the Environment]

Mr. Speaker, I remind the hon. member who may have forgotten that in his own response to the prebudget speech in the House of Commons on February 1, 1994 he took the position that we should maintain and increase federal support for the environment.

I also underline that even the leader of the Bloc Quebecois has stated in the House that the federal government has very clear jurisdiction in the area of environmental impact assessment. That jurisdiction is not challenged.

Our job here is to develop environmental standards which can work for the whole country. That is what I was elected to do. I would hope that the member would stop being a mouthpiece for one province and would start working for all Canadians.

Old Age Pensions

[Maurice Dumas, Bloc, Argenteuil—Papineau, QC]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Prime Minister.

While the Minister of Foreign Affairs is visiting seniors' centres saying that his government will never touch old age pensions, the Minister of Labour said yesterday that the federal government was going to reform the Canada Pension Plan. What is more, the latest budget also announced a reform of the old age pension, a different program from the Canada Pension Plan.

Since his ministers are all mixed up, would the Prime Minister confirm once and for all that old age pensions will indeed be reformed, as the budget provided, and that this reform has nothing to do with the five-year review of the Canada Pension Plan?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, in the budget, the Minister of Finance said that a periodic review of the CPP, as I said earlier, was necessary at least every five years in cooperation with the Government of Quebec, which has its own pension plan, but which works with the federal government to harmonize both systems.

I have said it and I will repeat it, we will never compromise the security of seniors who depend on the government pension. However, there are problems with this system as with all the others, and we want to ensure the system is adjusted, but not simply for this year and next, because good management requires us to be able to predict what the situation will be for people reaching retirement age in 2005 and 2010. We are doing studies right now, because, if we are not careful, people reaching retirement at that point might perhaps not enjoy the same services as people today do.

Those who have reached that point today, those who are receiving pensions from the Canadian government and need them in order to survive, may rest assured that we do not intend to change them, because we know it is vital to allow them to keep their current standard of living.

[Maurice Dumas, Bloc, Argenteuil—Papineau, QC]

Mr. Speaker, in describing old age pension reform, the latest budget talked about affordability, controlling financially sustainable costs and staying within our means.

Does the Prime Minister have the courage to say to us seniors today that the aim of his reform is to cut costs in the old age pension program and thus reduce the size of seniors' cheques?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, I have just said that we do not intend to cut the old age pensions of people who are currently retired. This is very clear; we have said this. We said so. The only thing is that some work has to be done to make sure that, in 2005 or 2010, we still have an old age pension system in Canada.

I can understand the hon. member and the Bloc members. They see no further than October 30. We are thinking about the future of all Canadians and about the pensions of Quebecers and Canadians not only for 1996, but for 2005 and for 2010 as well.

Irving Whale

[Paul Forseth, Reform, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of the Environment.

In 1992 a study of the Irving Whale said that PCBs were on board the barge at the time of sinking. The minister claims she had no knowledge of this until July 6 of this year. She has stated in this House that it was the transport ministry that overlooked this report and not her ministry, Environment Canada.

Will the minister put Canada first and tell the House in just a word who is responsible for the mistakes that led to a prohibitive court injunction, transport or environment?

[Sheila Copps, Liberal, Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of the Environment]

Mr. Speaker, I informed the House last week that the investigation into the PCB presence is continuing. In fact, the Irving company is being interviewed this week on the issue. As I said a couple of weeks ago, when we determine who is responsible for not formally informing the government about PCBs, there will be action taken.

[Paul Forseth, Reform, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Mr. Speaker, the Minister of the Environment has been politically grandstanding on this from the very beginning. It was her call to raise the Whale and now Canada is further in debt by $12 million and everything is still at the bottom of the sea with no hope to rise again as the Mary Ellen Carter .

Will the minister get a grip on her ministerial accountability and will she admit that it was the fault of her department for ignoring the 1992 Marex study?

[Sheila Copps, Liberal, Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of the Environment]

Mr. Speaker, I am prepared to take responsibility for a lot of things but as Minister of the Environment even I cannot dictate the weather.

The member will know the reason the Irving Whale was not able to be lifted this year was specifically because of the small window of opportunity for raising the Whale . We needed two very calm days and those days were not forthcoming because of the delays occasioned by the court case.

Everything is in place for the Irving Whale to be lifted next year. It seems to me that the presence of PCBs which if laid out would cover a football field three feet deep makes it even that much more urgent to lift the Irving Whale . We intend to do that as soon as the weather and the courts permit.

Old Age Pensions

[Michel Gauthier, Bloc, Roberval, QC]

Mr. Speaker, yesterday, the leader of the No side, Daniel Johnson, who was clearly uncomfortable and unable to answer seniors properly, invited people to direct their questions at the Prime Minister of Canada.

On behalf of these people, therefore, I will question him myself in order to reassure seniors. Mr. Johnson said: "Since I am not the Prime Minister of Canada, a member of Parliament, a federal minister or Lloyd Axworthy, I cannot make promises as to what is going to happen". But the Prime Minister can do so. We will therefore ask him to make some promises.

Instead of trying to confuse all seniors by talking sometimes about the Canada pension plan and sometimes about the old age security system, can the Prime Minister promise today, in order to reassure seniors, that he will reject out of hand, right away and

clearly, any reform of old age pensions for seniors, as they now fear?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, at the rate of one scare a day and with 32 days left, they still have to come up with 32 new scares. I think that the opposition is starting to feel scared that they will run out of scare stories. As I clearly stated earlier in response to his colleague who is already receiving his old age pension, we will never compromise the security of seniors who depend on government pensions.

That is clear. I cannot be any clearer than this. I am not saying that there will be no reforms because there will be reforms. I know that opposition members will not be here at that time, but we on this side hope to be here for a few more years. We must now ensure that there will still be an old age pension plan for those who will retire in the coming millennium.

These are our responsibilities, and we are not about to say that we are not looking at these problems when we are. But to those who are afraid today because PQ members are trying to scare them, I say: "Do not be afraid". There will be no statements on cutting their old age pensions either in November or in the February budget. I cannot be any clearer than this.

[Michel Gauthier, Bloc, Roberval, QC]

Mr. Speaker, we finally heard the admission that the Prime Minister will reform the old age security system. Given the direction in which the Minister of Finance is heading, this reform will certainly involve cuts. I would be surprised if old age pensions were increased, in the light of what they have done in the past two years. I imagine that he may will not think that representing seniors in this place is trying to scare people; we are simply trying to protect their security.

Given the extremely disturbing information for seniors that come from government back rooms, could the Prime Minister assure us beyond any doubt that his government is not planning to defer beyond 65 the age of eligibility to the old age pension? Can he deny today this piece of bad news for seniors?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, in our concept of society, people aged 65 and over already receive pensions. They therefore have no reason to worry. I am saying that we will have to look at the problems in the years to come. We will see; studies will be done.

[Some hon. members]

Ah, ah.

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Saint-Maurice, QC]

Yes, we will see.

But if we really want to reassure retired people in Quebec, the best way to do so is to tell them that they will continue to receive their old age pensions from the government of Canada after October 30, while the Parti Quebecois is creating extreme uncertainty with its separation plans. The best way to reassure Quebec seniors is to tell them: "The government of Canada will still be there after October 30 to pay your old age pensions". There will be no doubt about that.

Bosnia

[Jim Hart, Reform, Okanagan—Similkameen—Merritt, BC]

Mr. Speaker, there is confusion in the government about when our troop commitment in Bosnia expires. Officials from foreign affairs told me that our mandate in Bosnia is up at the end of November. The Department of National Defence tells me that troops will be deployed November 9 through 17. The Minister of Foreign Affairs says that our commitment is up on October 30.

Will the Prime Minister end the confusion and tell us when our mandate in Bosnia is over?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, we should all rejoice because the peace process taking place at this moment in Bosnia is making a lot of progress. I am very proud of our Canadian soldiers who have proudly represented Canada during very tough times in order to save thousands and thousands of lives.

While the Reform Party changed its mind during the process, the government kept faith in the process of peace. Progress is being made at this moment. We will decide if we are still needed there. Even if there is a peace agreement signed in the weeks to come, there will still be a need for Canadian soldiers.

This morning I discussed the situation with the President of France and the Prime Minister of England. We keep in touch with them because we want to participate. We have participated and contributed to a situation where everybody thinks there will soon be peace. It is not the time to quit when we can still make a contribution.

[Jim Hart, Reform, Okanagan—Similkameen—Merritt, BC]

Mr. Speaker, the Prime Minister has been sidetracked from the Canadian agenda for so long he has forgotten his own words. On March 30, 1995 the Prime Minister said: "Canada's presence in the former Yugoslavia will be maintained for the next six months". That means midnight September 30, 1995.

I will ask my question again to the Prime Minister. When will our troops be pulled out of Bosnia?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, not before Sunday.

Unemployment Insurance Reform

[Antoine Dubé, Bloc, Lévis, QC]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Human Resources Development.

The document on the human resources investment fund recently submitted by the minister to the program review committee mentions a federal strategy for selling the UI reform in Quebec. It states in part that a tenable position should be identified with regard to Quebec in the referendum context, however unacceptable this position may be to the current government.

Does the minister recognize that this excerpt confirms that he was prepared to table his UI reform during the referendum campaign or even earlier, but that the Prime Minister decided to postpone its tabling till after the referendum in order to hide his intentions from the people of Quebec?

[Lloyd Axworthy, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development and Minister of Western Economic Diversification]

Mr. Speaker, I have never presented any such document to the program review committee of cabinet.

[Antoine Dubé, Bloc, Lévis, QC]

Yet, Mr. Speaker, that is what this document says, which was leaked to the press and brought up by the NDP this week.

Does the minister realize that his UI reform, which introduces five new federal manpower training programs, flies in the face of the repeatedly expressed Quebec consensus on the need to transfer to Quebec all responsibilities in that area?

[Lloyd Axworthy, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development and Minister of Western Economic Diversification]

Mr. Speaker, as the hon. member rightly knows, we have been developing a series of projects in co-operation with the provinces over the past year to test out new methods and new measures by which we can help people get back to work most actively. One of the most interesting projects is in co-operation with the Government of Quebec in dealing with young people and helping them to get back in the job market.

If the hon. member is telling me he rejects any of those measures that are more effectively designed to get people in the job market, there is something substantially wrong with the hon. member. I have a letter he wrote to me asking for my support in a youth project sponsored by the federal government in his riding. I am very pleased to say I would certainly like to give him the assurance of supporting that project if he can give me the assurance of supporting the no vote on October 30.