Debates of Oct. 2nd, 1996

The Somalia Inquiry

[Pierre Brien, Bloc, Témiscamingue, QC]

Mr. Speaker, my supplementary is also for the Prime Minister.

Does the Prime Minister not think that, from a strictly ethical point of view, such serious accusations against the Chief of Staff justify General Boyle's suspension, at least for the duration of the inquiry? If the Prime Minister will not dismiss General Boyle from his duties, will he at least suspend him?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, the commission of inquiry is currently conducting its proceedings. We hope it will release its findings at the earliest opportunity. The sooner the better for everyone.

In the meantime, we have to respect the rights of each individual to be heard and we must wait for the commission to render its judgment, before taking action.

[Preston Manning, Reform, Calgary Southwest, AB]

Mr. Speaker, this morning I received a very moving letter from a retired armed forces captain, Stephen Ransier in Guelph. What made it moving was that along with it he included his Canadian service decoration for years and years of military service in the Canadian Armed Forces.

This is what he said: "I have concluded that I can no longer wear my Canadian forces decoration-with pride or honour". He lists the reasons why: lack of moral leadership; a minister of defence who appears to have no concept of or interest in the military; and a chief of the defence staff who abrogates his responsibilities.

What does the Prime Minister have to say to Captain Ransier and others like him who are so disappointed in the leadership at the top that they return their Canadian forces decorations?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, I will tell this gentleman that it is exactly because we are very preoccupied with the morale in the armed forces following the incident in Somalia that this government did the very unusual thing of setting up an inquiry into the matter. It is exactly because I want the commission to finish its work that I will not prejudge the conclusions of the commissioners.

I have respect for all the people serving today in the armed forces. All of them are not responsible for what happened in Somalia. When the results are known, we will act. In the meantime we have to respect the commission and let it finish its work. After that we will make our decision based on its recommendations.

[Preston Manning, Reform, Calgary Southwest, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I will give the Prime Minister the letter.

As a young soldier Captain Ransier protected the current Prime Minister during the FLQ crisis. He apparently stood outside the current Prime Minister's door when he came back from Pierre Laporte's funeral. He accompanied Mrs. Chrétien to the grocery store during those unsettled times. Now he is looking to the Prime Minister for protection of the morale and reputation of the Canadian Armed Forces.

What is the Prime Minister's response to soldiers who are looking to him to protect the morale and reputation of the Canadian Armed Forces from mismanagement by the Minister of National Defence and the chief of defence staff?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, there is an inquiry.

I am happy that the gentleman did his job properly when he was there. He was rewarded with a decoration for the work he performed. He should not jeopardize the services rendered because there is an inquiry at this time. He should not try to politicize the issue.

At this moment what is important is to go with the inquiry, let the commissioners ask the questions, get the answers, weigh the pros and cons of every testimony and render a judgment. It is not for anybody in the House of Commons to decide matters which are discussed in front of an inquiry and prejudge the conclusion. That would show a complete lack of respect for the commissioners who are doing a difficult job.

[Preston Manning, Reform, Calgary Southwest, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I know political letters when I see them and this is not a political letter.

I will hold Captain Ransier's decorations in trust and I will return them to him on the day when he can wear them with pride and honour. I will hold them in trust until there is a new defence minister and a new chief of defence staff. How long will Captain Ransier have to wait?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, that is precisely the way to politicize the issue. The leader of the third party cannot find a lot against the government and he is looking for an occasion to have his picture in the press with the soldiers.

We will run the government the way we think it should be run. The proper way to run a government is to show respect to the commission. We must let the commissioners do their job. They have sworn to do their job properly. When the commission completes its work we will act accordingly. That is the way things are done in Canada. We will not find anybody guilty before the case is closed.

Revenue Canada

[Michel Guimond, Bloc, Beauport—Montmorency—Orléans, QC]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the revenue minister.

Over the past five years, Revenue Canada has audited the excise taxes of only one oil company and of no tobacco products manufacturers, thus risking the loss of millions of dollars, because there is a four year limitation on audits. In other words, after four years, you can no longer recover the money. We are not talking about smuggling here, but lax tax controls.

Can the revenue minister explain to us why her department did not do its job properly, letting millions of dollars that it can never recover disappear daily?

[Jane Stewart, Liberal, Minister of National Revenue]

Mr. Speaker, we have been doing our work.

What I want to explain to the House is that even though audits were not completed, we were constantly monitoring the tax revenues from these companies. There was absolutely no indication that there were any changes to the amounts of revenue which the government was receiving.

[Michel Guimond, Bloc, Beauport—Montmorency—Orléans, QC]

Mr. Speaker, might we remind the minister that the number of public servants assigned to audit functions has been plummeting in her department for 20 years and that the auditor general tells us that, since 1991, those left have been doing only GST audits.

I therefore ask the minister what she is waiting for to hire or train new auditors, thus making it possible to carry out the required controls within four years and collect millions owed the federal tax department?

[Jane Stewart, Liberal, Minister of National Revenue]

Mr. Speaker, the hon. member is wrong. In fact we have hired 1,200 new auditors. With the last budget the Minister of Finance gave us $50 million to hire 800 more.

Somalia Inquiry

[Jim Hart, Reform, Okanagan—Similkameen—Merritt, BC]

Mr. Speaker, the answers of the defence minister and the Prime Minister may have been acceptable, except for one small fact.

Troops from the Canadian Armed Forces are deployed around the world. This issue of leadership goes right to the heart of the matter. If they do not do something, they are going to get someone killed in our Canadian Armed Forces.

Today Roberto Gonzales contradicted the general and implicated him in the cover-up. I would like to ask the Prime Minister a very simple question: Will the Prime Minister clearly state to this House whether or not General Boyle still enjoys the confidence of this government?

[David Collenette, Liberal, Minister of National Defence and Minister of Veterans Affairs]

Mr. Speaker, we have been very consistent in our answers. You have heard them again today.

What is very troubling is that at this time people in the armed forces are feeling a lot of pain; people in the House of Commons are feeling a lot of pain; Canadians are feeling a lot of pain about the problems we have had with this particular mission. These are being looked into by the inquiry.

For members to come here to the House of Commons and exploit the pain of an individual soldier, to come here to the House of Commons and basically give the impression that somehow lives are at risk goes beyond any partisan politics I have ever seen in nearly 20 years of being in and out of this Chamber.

I would only hope for decency's sake that the hon. member and his colleagues would let the inquiry do its work and leave the members of the armed forces to continue to do the good job they are doing.

[Jim Hart, Reform, Okanagan—Similkameen—Merritt, BC]

Mr. Speaker, being a former member of the Canadian Armed Forces, I take this to heart.

The worst situation in the Canadian Armed Forces and for personnel in the Canadian Armed Forces was when the chief of defence staff stood up, blamed everything on his subordinates and said that his subordinates lacked moral fibre. That was the worst thing that ever happened.

In a speech on ethics in 1991 the Prime Minister stated in this House: "When we form government, every minister in the cabinet that I will be presiding over will have to take full responsibility for what is going on in his department. If there is any bungling in the department, the minister will have to take the responsibility".

Canadians know there has been a whole lot of bungling going on in the minister's department. I have a simple question for the Prime Minister: Exactly how much does it take before the Prime Minister, before you hold your Minister of National-

[The Speaker]

My colleagues, please. You will address your questions to the Chair and then they will be passed on through. I will permit the right hon. Prime Minister to answer.

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, I have a lot of confidence in the Minister of National Defence.

When I was in the opposition, I knew there were a lot of problems in that department. That is one of the reasons we made a promise to have an inquiry into the Somalia affair. I said at that time that one of the problems which existed in the previous administration was that there were seven defence ministers in nine years.

I said to the Minister of National Defence: "You will take over a very difficult job, but I will keep you in that job. This department needs the respect of the government. We should have a minister who will be there for a long time, who will be responsible and who will take his responsibilities very seriously". That is exactly what the Minister of National Defence has been doing since November 1993.

The Canada Labour Code

[Réal Ménard, Bloc, Hochelaga—Maisonneuve, QC]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Labour.

The Minister of Labour is in the process of reviewing part I of the Canada Labour Code. The task force he set up for that purpose recommended in its report, the Sims report, which was tabled this past January, that the RCMP be given the right to collective bargaining.

Since RCMP officers are the only police officers in Canada who do not have the right to collective bargaining, will the minister undertake to use the current revision of the Canada Labour Code to put an end to this discriminatory and unjustified situation?

[Alfonso Gagliano, Liberal, Minister of Labour and Deputy Leader of the Government in the House of Commons]

Mr. Speaker, I have already given the hon. member an answer on this. Within a few weeks, I hope to be in a position to table amendments to the Labour Code. At that time, people will have a chance to see what the proposed amendments are.

Since the hon. member referred to the Sims report, I would invite him to reread it. I believe there is a difference between what he has just said and what the report states with respect to the RCMP.

[Réal Ménard, Bloc, Hochelaga—Maisonneuve, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I would ask the minister to leave it to the opposition to decide whether or not he has provided an answer, and at this point he has not.

The RCMP Association has proposed a collective bargaining system under which there would be binding arbitration without the right to strike. Does the minister intend to accede to this proposal, which is fair, equitable and respectful of RCMP employees?

[Alfonso Gagliano, Liberal, Minister of Labour and Deputy Leader of the Government in the House of Commons]

Mr. Speaker, I repeat, we are in the process of drafting the amendments to the bill concerning part I of the Labour Code, and I invite the hon. member to wait until the bill is tabled in the House and then to make his comments and pass judgment on the minister's actions.

Immigration

[Val Meredith, Reform, Surrey—White Rock—South Langley, BC]

Mr. Speaker, on Monday when I asked the immigration minister about the case of Dennis Garcia, an escaped American dangerous offender who claimed refugee status in Canada and was released, the minister simply responded by stating that the government has a different view from the Reform Party.

Now we find out just how different the government's view is. She has issued new guidelines to immigration officers that they are to bend over backward to avoid detaining illegal immigrants and bogus refugees.

Can the minister explain why she is issuing guidelines to immigration officers that contradict sections of the Immigration Act?

[Lucienne Robillard, Liberal, Minister of Citizenship and Immigration]

Mr. Speaker, I have not issued any new guidelines on the subject, and the hon. member is saying is just not true.

[Val Meredith, Reform, Surrey—White Rock—South Langley, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I would suggest that the information comes from immigration officers within her department. They are the ones who have received this information from the minister.

The Reform Party believes that an escaped dangerous offender who savagely beat a defenceless woman during a robbery should not even be allowed to claim refugee status in Canada, never mind being released from detention. The Liberals think that not only should he be released but he should be welcomed with opened arms.

Can the minister explain why this government is now adopting a get soft approach concerning illegal immigrants and bogus refugees rather than protecting Canadians?

[Lucienne Robillard, Liberal, Minister of Citizenship and Immigration]

Mr. Speaker, it is not true that we are going to make changes in the Immigration Department's detention policy

so that dangerous criminals may circulate freely in this country. It is not true at all.

The reason this policy is now under review-a policy that was not adopted by the deputy minister or by the current minister-is to conform to existing jurisprudence. We also respect the rule of law in this country.