Debates of Nov. 4th, 1996

The Divorce Act

[Some hon. members]

Yea.

[The Deputy Speaker]

All those opposed will please say nay.

[Some hon. members]

Nay.

[The Deputy Speaker]

In my opinion the nays have it.

And more than five members having risen:

[The Deputy Speaker]

The recorded division on the motion stands deferred.

[Jay Hill, Reform, Prince George—Peace River, BC]

moved:

Motion No. 15

That Bill C-41, in Clause 22, be amended by replacing line 6 on page 21 with the following:

"deemed to have been received by a debtor twenty"

Mr. Speaker, it has been a long day. It is a pleasure to rise to speak to the last amendment we put forward to endeavour to improve Bill C-41.

This amendment, like Motion No. 14, or Group No. 4, serves to extend the period of time. The existing clause found on page 21 of the bill states:

(5) A notice referred to in subsection (3) is deemed to have been received by a debtor ten days after it is sent to the debtor.

What we would like to see done with Motion No. 15 is to extend that period from 10 days to 20. It is a relatively simple amendment that would allow for sufficient time to be reasonably assured that the individual in question has time to respond. That is the point of trying to extend that period of time.

Earlier the hon. parliamentary secretary said that a number of our amendments were put forward in the interest of delaying the passage of the bill or to delay the implementation of the guidelines or to delay certain sections of the bill.

I can assure members that is not the case, as I have stated on numerous occasions today. The thrust of why we are bringing forward this number of amendments to this piece of legislation is in the honest hope of improving it and making it work better. I do not see how any of these amendments that the Reform has proposed today will delay the bill or delay certain sections of it or indeed delay the guidelines.

With regard to the Reform amendment that would have the guidelines come back to the House, perhaps it would delay that portion for a certain period of time. I think it is in the best interests of Canadians to ensure that the House or the standing committee have the chance to view the guidelines rather than simply have it shuffled through cabinet and foisted on the Canadian people as a done deal. It is always a concern of opposition parties.

When the Liberals were in opposition in the previous Parliament they spoke out against this type of manoeuvring by a majority government. It did not allow the opposition parties the option or the chance to truly represent their constituents both in the House of Commons and in committee where they would be allowed to put forward some suggestions or at least voice the concerns of certain groups, individuals and constituents who would approach the opposition parties with concerns about the guidelines in question.

If these amendments pass when we vote there may be a minor delay with that process being put in place. It is in the best interests of Canadians to ensure their views can be heard and are represented by their duly elected members of Parliament. After all, that is the whole point of why we are here, to represent their views.

If we are not given an opportunity to view the guidelines and raise concerns, then why do we have Parliament existing as it does today? Is the whole thrust the government seems intent to operate with orders in council and just have the cabinet make those types of decisions as it has on a number of bills? Over the past three years Reform has consistently spoken out against that because we do not believe that is the way a truly democratic government should be operating.

When those people over there were on this side of the House in the 34th Parliament we saw some terrific indignation that the Tories were ramming through legislation, guidelines and regulations with orders in council. Now that the Liberals are ensconced-temporarily I might add-on the other side of the House, they are doing exactly the same thing that they criticised the Conservatives for.

It is no wonder as we travel across the country and throughout our ridings we hear "Liberal-Tory, same old story". That chant has been picked up from coast to coast because people are seeing the reality that there is no difference between not only the policies of those two old parties but the way in which they operate as governments as well.

[Christiane Gagnon, Bloc, Québec, QC]

Mr. Speaker, in short, we are against this amendment because the presumption is that if the debtor says he did not receive the provincial notice, the 30 days the province must wait before submitting the licence denial application to the federal government will start 10 days after the date the notice was actually sent. This just gives the debtor more time. There is really no reason to extend this period by another 10 days.

Mail is no longer delivered on horseback. That is why we oppose this motion.

[Michel Bellehumeur, Bloc, Berthier—Montcalm, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I will be very brief since this supports what I said earlier. I gave the example of Reform Motion No. 14, which adds 30 days to the period proposed by the government. This would give a defaulting debtor up to 11 months, plus Reform's 30 days, for a total of 12 months. I am somewhat taken aback by the fact that even this is not enough for the Reform Party.

I do not know what Reform's goal is in favouring defaulting debtors, but it gives 10 days more than the period specified in the notice. According to the legislator, the purpose of the 10-day period provided in Bill C-41 after the notice is sent to the debtor is to prove it has been received. The Reform motion provides for a 20-day period. It gives another 10 days.

Given the reasons I mentioned earlier, I personally would not give a defaulting debtor a single day. After nine months, he must know he owes at least $3,000 in unpaid child support. In any case, his wife and children probably called to remind him to send his cheque for $500, so there is no reason to give him more time. For all these reasons, all members of the Bloc Quebecois will vote against this motion.

[Gordon Kirkby, Liberal, Prince Albert—Churchill River, SK]

Mr. Speaker, I believe you will find unanimous consent-

[The Deputy Speaker]

The hon. member and I discussed this matter and I think we agreed that we would wait until we have finished dealing with Group No. 5 and then he will make his point of order then.

Does the hon. parliamentary secretary wish to speak to Motion No. 15?

[Gordon Kirkby, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada]

Briefly, Mr. Speaker, with respect to Motion No. 15, again this amendment is brought forward for the purpose of extending a time period. As I have indicated on previous occasion with respect to a number of amendments that have been brought forward by the Reform Party, it seems that many of these amendments are designed to delay or put off the remedies which are contained in the bill.

It is our view that we must put in timeframes that are consistent with other provisions within other acts, that is to say, to have time periods which reflect the norm for service, for notice and the like rather than extending them and simply inordinately delaying the remedies that are available to the custodial spouse and children.

We should not support this motion because we need to ensure that delays are not inordinate.

[The Deputy Speaker]

Is the House ready for the question?

[Some hon. members]

Question.

[The Deputy Speaker]

The question is on Motion No. 15. Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[Some hon. members]

No.

[The Deputy Speaker]

All those in favour of the motion will please say yea.

[Some hon. members]

Yea.

[The Deputy Speaker]

All those opposed will please say nay.

[Some hon. members]

Nay.

[The Deputy Speaker]

In my opinion the nays have it.

And more than five members having risen:

[The Deputy Speaker]

The recorded division on the motion stands deferred.

[Gordon Kirkby, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada]

Mr. Speaker, I believe you will find unanimous consent, after having consulted with the other parties, to introduce the following motion.

I move:

That Bill C-41, in clause 5(2), be amended by replacing lines 13 to 15 on page 8 with "judgment or a written agreement respecting the financial obligations of".

[Christiane Gagnon, Bloc, Québec, QC]

Mr. Speaker, we will give our consent to this motion, while deploring the fact that the hon. member introduced it at the very last minute, claiming this was an oversight, that it should have been presented in committee.

While we would have liked to subject the proposal made by the hon. member to a comprehensive analysis, among other things, we will nonetheless give our consent.

[Jay Hill, Reform, Prince George—Peace River, BC]

Mr. Speaker, we will give unanimous consent to allow the government this procedure as well. However, like my hon. colleague from the Bloc Quebecois, I do not see the need for this type of shenanigans from the government. If this is how seriously it takes its own legislation, it only points to the reason why Canada is in the shape that it is today.