House of Commons Hansard #99 of the 35th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was throne.

Topics

Speech From The ThroneRoutine Proceedings

11:15 a.m.

The Deputy Speaker

Would the hon. member please pretend the remarks are going through the Chair?

Speech From The ThroneRoutine Proceedings

11:15 a.m.

Reform

Diane Ablonczy Reform Calgary North, AB

I apologize, Mr. Speaker. I do not know how I could have left you out of this equation, it was most improper. Please accept my apologizes.

Mr. Speaker, I did touch in my intervention on the whole matter of prevention. I agree with my colleague that it is most important. I had a discussion with some police officers in Calgary a few months ago and they told me they can tell as early as five years of age if an individual may be predisposed to a life of crime and law breaking. I found that very interesting. When my colleague suggests there can be early detection and prevention of a tendency toward criminal activity, that is borne out by some of the things I have heard and read.

Reform members believe there should be support for the introduction of programs for the early detection and prevention of youth crime. There needs to be more effective rehabilitation programs, not just to put people away or put them in a closed facility for a period of time, but to have that time spent in activities that emphasize education, literacy and skills training. These people would then have a better opportunity to become productive members of society rather than otherwise. There should be an emphasis on discipline and community service.

Reform believes that the key to crime prevention is to strengthen families and communities rather just relying exclusively on the judicial parole and prison systems.

I would say two things in reply to my colleague's concern with regard to the decreased funding for the support of these kinds of activities. The Reform Party opposes such measures as a universal registry of every law-abiding citizen's firearms. This is a very ineffective deployment of scarce resources when every dollar is

needed for the kinds of programs that will help to give us safety. However, those dollars are going to activities that simply cause problems for law-abiding citizens and take away law prevention and enforcement time. Reform opposes that.

Second, this is why the Reform Party has kept saying that governments cannot continue to borrow. The government's interest bill when it took office three years ago was only $38 billion-I should not say only, that is a lot of money-and today it is $48 billion. In three short years we have lost $10 billion to interest to lenders. That could have gone toward the kinds of programs that my colleague and I have been speaking about: to prevent crime, to detect crime early and to seriously assist people to become law-abiding citizens rather than lawbreakers. We have to get government spending under control so we do not continually have the resources that we need for these important programs eroded.

Speech From The ThroneRoutine Proceedings

11:15 a.m.

Bloc

Pierre De Savoye Bloc Portneuf, QC

Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the enlightened words of my colleague on helping get young people off on the right track and on prevention. This is a topic dear to my own heart as well.

For every dollar we invest, the government invests, in prevention, scores of dollars would not have to be invested in the administration of justice, and in incarceration, further down the road.

It costs about $100,000 a year to keep someone in a federal penitentiary--an astronomical sum. Helping a young person in difficulty, however, costs only a few thousand. What extraordinary savings could be realized, then, by putting our money in the right place.

I would like to know whether my colleague from the Reform Party shares my point of view.

Speech From The ThroneRoutine Proceedings

11:20 a.m.

Reform

Diane Ablonczy Reform Calgary North, AB

Mr. Speaker, the member makes a very important point, a point to which we need to listen. We talk a lot about dealing with crime after the fact. We do not talk enough about prevention and assistance to our young people especially. I am in complete agreement with the hon. member.

We need to more seriously focus on that area of the justice system. I thank him for bringing forward those points.

Speech From The ThroneRoutine Proceedings

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

Derek Lee Liberal Scarborough—Rouge River, ON

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to continue the debate today on the subject of the government's throne speech some months ago. I can tell from the enthusiasm in the House today that it is still a topic of interest and that members are looking at lots of issues.

I would like to touch on four separate elements of the throne speech and the government's current program that arose from or were referred to in the throne speech.

The first area is that of economic opportunity and jobs. This has been a theme of governments for many years and it will probably always be so. The government had mapped out a game plan on being elected in 1993 and the economic opportunity program continued with this throne speech.

Everyone in the House will agree that the issue of jobs is a function of economics. Governments simply cannot go out with a bucket of money, pour it into a particular city or region and hope that jobs will accrue. That is not what happens. The creation of jobs is something that happens when the rubber hits the road, when the business person decides to hire, decides to invest in a new production facility and sells more product. Where all of those business functions are positive that is when jobs are created.

What is the government doing to foster the economic conditions that give rise to those jobs? There are several indicators. In fact there are hundreds of indicators. Of the most important ones I have selected four where the indicators are showing very positive economic progress, the kind that gives rise to job creation. They are not in any particular order.

Canada's current account, the balance of moneys moving in and out of the country, has entered positive territory for the first time in many years. That was tough to turn around. When the government was elected in 1993 there were many who thought the circumstance was desperate. I am very pleased to see that we now have current account surpluses in existence. In the most recent quarter and in future economic quarters and years we project a continuing current account surplus.

This of course has a very positive effect on the Canadian dollar which has moved recently over the 75 cent U.S. mark and which economists predict is going to continue to appreciate. While that sounds great, I know there are exporters in Canada who are not always comfortable as the dollar appreciates because that means their Canadian goods and services are more expensive for outside Canadian purchasers.

The second area is a prominent one. It is the battle to eliminate the deficit. I do not think there is anyone in the House who could deny the substantial progress that the government under the leadership of the finance minister has made toward the elimination of the deficit. We are now in 2 per cent of GDP territory. The objective for the following fiscal period is now targeted at 1 per cent of GDP.

In approximately the second quarter of 1998 the government will have zero cash borrowing requirements. We simply will not have any new borrowing needs for current operations. We will have to continue to recycle the government debt, but that is a very significant point. Perhaps I should not be projecting, but the economic models are showing no new borrowing in approximately the second quarter of 1998.

If we were in one of the other G7 countries, France, U.S.A., Germany and Great Britain, the government accounts are measured differently from the way we do it in Canada. If we measured our public accounts the way they measure theirs I could stand here and say we would have no deficit in the second quarter of 1998. However, we measure our government finances differently.

We cannot change it now because we will all get the sense that we are cooking the books and changing the rules. Therefore, we will keep our unique Canadian way and aim for the elimination of the deficit based on the Canadian measuring sticks. I think we are headed toward approximately 1999 or 2000. These issues are up to Canadians who spend money, Canadians who pay taxes and the finance minister who has his hands on the purse strings.

The last indicator of economic prosperity has to be interest rates. It was only yesterday that I noted that mortgage interest rates were publicly advertised now at 5.4 per cent. We have not seen interest rates like that since roughly the end of the last war.

I can recall in my previous incarnation, prior to being an elected member of the House, meeting people who had one of these old 30-year, CMHC mortgages with interest rates of around 5 per cent, 6 per cent and 7 per cent. Those mortgages would have been amortized and maturing approximately at the end of the 1970s and beginning of the 1980s. I remember people saying: "We will never see those kinds of interest rates again, never. Those are part of history". Here we are in 1996 looking at those kinds of interest rates again.

The point I would make is that, as Canadians, we can be seen to actually be in control of interest rates. We are able to do things in government that directly affect interest rates. Maybe we never believed we could to that before but now we see that we can do it because we did it. I think we can take credit for all that we have done. It was not just a decision of the finance minister. It was not just a decision of a bank. It was a whole constellation of political decisions and acceptance by Canadians of a fiscal program that would enable these interest rates to reduce.

I want to leave economics now and go into the area of trust of government. I served in the 34th Parliament and I know that my first two weeks in this place the House had to deal with a matter involving trust. It was my first intervention in this place in 1989. I think it is fair to say that in the last two, three or four years there has been a lot fewer incidents where material issues of public trust have been taken up in this House. I do not want to suggest that there are never any. There are always some.

However, in terms of material issues of public trust, I am very confident that the Prime Minister has shown us a standard which we can comfortably follow, hopefully for many years. I know I am proud to follow that standard and I think Canadians believe that.

I think public polls, where various types of questions are asked, indicate that Canadians are beginning to have a sense of trust in government, not in the sense that government can do everything, it never could and just cannot, but in their sense of confidence in the integrity at least of this Prime Minister and this government's high standards. I know, the cabinet knows and I think members opposite know what those standards are. I think we are doing a much better job of meeting those standards.

One way which we show that we are meeting the standards falls under the rubric of accountability. Journalists write about, politicians speak about, Canadians ask about it. This government has made a very real attempt to be directly accountable. It is a very big manifestation.

When I sought election to the House as a Liberal member I ran on the policies in the red book. I used it in my campaign and in much of what I do and what I vote on here and sometimes what I speak about. The Prime Minister and the cabinet are following what is in the red book and proof of that was the decision of the Prime Minister a couple of week ago to publish what he and his cabinet and the government have accomplished in delivering on the red book promises.

Some people viewed that as political grandstanding. To be sure, it was political. However, it was an attempt to account to Canadians for what the government had accomplished vis-a-vis the red book. Individuals may disagree with the score card and may say we have done 8 out of the 10 things but there are still two remaining. That is fair. This was intended to say that by our account we have fulfilled 78 per cent of the commitments of the red book and we still have approximately another year left in our mandate. Every week, every month there are announcements and decisions by the government which continue to improve the record of accountability. I am proud of that.

I realize that at some time I will have to account to my electors in Scarborough-Rouge River for only scoring 86 per cent of 87 per cent. In this modern complex world I challenge any institution, any government or corporation, whether it be a hospital, a school or a commercial entity, to deliver 100 per cent on anything as the years unfold. Do not forget, we are dealing with government which is very complex and very broad. I am very comfortable with the process of accounting.

Another little element of this, one little snapshot of where I believe the Prime Minister and the government have shown they are more accountable is in the innovation of the government's decision to put in place a commissioner to oversee the activities of the Communications Security Establishment, a signals intelligence agency with a high degree of capability of eavesdropping. This agencies has carried on since the second world war with out any

legislative mandate and without any accountability mechanism, as far as I have been able to determine. There certainly was a minister in the House, but rarely if ever were there any question put in the House on this subject. Even more rarely were answers given.

Now a former judge has been appointed, and the accountability mechanism there to assist Parliament, sharing accountability, was an innovation which was not there before. I am very proud to be part of a government that was bold enough to address that issue.

Third, what has happened in the region I represent in terms of the throne speech? What has the government delivered? What has the throne speech done? My riding of Scarborough-Rouge River is part of the greater Toronto area. It is difficult to look at a particular riding in that area in isolation.

However, I know that the financial community on Bay Street likes what this government has done, what it has delivered. I know that for the second year in a row, Canada's exports are hitting record highs. Never before have we exported as much as we have recently, which means jobs for Canadians.

Never before have I as a Canadian felt so plugged into the world. From my riding and from the GTA I see goods and services being exported from Canada to all parts of the world. Now there is no part of the world in which Canadians are not marketing, selling, building, advising. It is really a treat to see this happening. We have a lot of Canadians with a lot of abilities who are working in that area.

Rouge Valley Park is a unique 5,000 acre green preserve within metropolitan Toronto. The federal government has done its part. It has delivered on its funding commitment. We are very proud that the Rouge Valley Park alliance is moving ahead with the co-operation of all the other levels of government, provincial, municipal, metro and the regional conservation authority, to accomplish its objectives.

The Prime Minister, the Minister of National Defence and the GTA caucus are dedicated to taking a piece of the Downsview air base and turning it into green space and other positive infrastructure for the GTA.

The commercialization of the Toronto airport is now proceeding. The carpet has been ripped up; the doors at the entrance to terminal II, which never worked, have finally been replaced; a new tower is being constructed; a new runway is being constructed; the other runways have been repaired. Millions of dollars in investment are going into the Pearson airport which is a huge economic entity. It is the gateway to central Canada and for many people around the world it is the gateway to Canada.

One of the things visitors to Toronto will see is the new trade centre which is being constructed on the Canadian National Exhibition grounds. The centre is a product of the federal-provincial infrastructure program, a federal program contained in the red book. This huge attractive trade centre will be open shortly. Canadians will market our goods and services to the entire world through this trade centre. We will compete with trade centres globally. There are some great centres out there, just as the GTA trade centre will be.

I cannot talk about the throne speech without mentioning national unity. The government has a program which has been debated in the House. We want to modernize the federation in little bites because we have found the big bite is too much for Canadians, too much for this House. We have not been able to do it in big chunks. We are working on that in many areas, co-operation federally and provincially, avoiding duplication, job training, environmental protection, a national securities commission, which I think is an excellent objective, and dealing with partitionists in Quebec who would partition Canada. Some are called separatists, some are called secessionists.

This is a matter that has to be addressed and will continue to be addressed maybe for another 100 years. However, I believe that Canadians and Quebecers are going to be able to deal with this issue, as tough as it is. We have to give a lot of elbow room to all the provinces, including Quebec, so that each of the groupings across the country can achieve their goals as a region or as a province. I am confident that this government, under this Prime Minister, will be able to accomplish this objective and all others.

Speech From The ThroneRoutine Proceedings

11:40 a.m.

Reform

Jim Silye Reform Calgary Centre, AB

Mr. Speaker, I do not know where to begin. We are having a lively debate on the throne speech which was presented nine months ago. The government must have pretty thin legislation to offer this up for debate today. It should be an embarrassment to the government.

The hon. member painted a rosy picture about all the great and wonderful things that are happening in this country. He tied them into trust. I would like to talk about trust a bit. I believe that looking at some of the truths is also important.

It is true that when the Liberals were in opposition they opposed the NAFTA and free trade itself. In fact they had a leader who ran on a platform against free trade. There was a red book promise that the NAFTA would not be approved until the dispute settlement mechanism was revisited. That would have avoided the unneces-

sary nasty deal that was recently negotiated on softwood lumber. That is not good news.

In opposition the Liberals complained incessantly about the philosophy of the governor of the Bank of Canada, Crow, and his anti-inflation policy. When the Liberals were in opposition they were against that. Now they are taking the credit. It was that policy of the Bank of Canada which toed the tough line when it was necessary and it was the right thing to do. Canadians knew it, but the Liberals did not know it in opposition. They were against it.

Now they are taking credit for low interest rates. Now they are taking credit for the expansion of exports. That is what is expanding the economy. Domestic growth is nil. When interest rates are really low, that is a sign of failure. That means that the economy has stalled. They should not be patting themselves on their backs.

The banks and all lenders want to lower their rates to induce people to borrow. Why? Because they are not borrowing. We should talk about the other side of the story.

The Liberals are saying that in two years from now, when our deficit is only $9 billion, there will be no new borrowing. We will have a balanced budget because of the way in which the countries which belong to the Organization for Economic Co-operation and Development measure their deficits.

Consider this logic. We will have a $9 billion deficit. The hon. member said that when we hit that single digit level we will have a balanced budget. There will be no new borrowing. Where are they going to get $9 billion? They are going to borrow it from the civil service pension fund. That is a loan. That is a debt. They should not be telling Canadians that there will no longer be deficit financing or borrowing. That is a distortion of the truth. I am embarrassed that the finance minister is talking that way and letting the Prime Minister get away with things like that. It is cooking the books. It is saying that they broke the back of the deficit when they are not coming clean with the Canadian public.

Let us do that. Let us say that we have a $9 billion deficit. We are going to borrow it from the civil service pension fund, but we will have a balanced budget. That is not true.

This government brags about the steps it took and the spending cuts it made. It will be sad when the member goes back to his riding to seek re-election. I am going to submit that it is his government which is responsible for the nurses who are losing their jobs and for the teachers who are losing their jobs. Who reduced spending for education and health care by $7 billion? The government. Who has to live with it? The provincial governments, and these guys are patting themselves on the back and blaming the provinces for doing a poor job. Excuse me. That is a sorry way to run a country. It is a poor excuse for taking responsibility and telling the truth to Canadians.

Spending to the provinces by this government has been reduced by 42 per cent. Spending on its own federal administrative costs is only about 1.3 per cent. Tell me how all these spending reductions were made. On the backs of the provinces and the government is bragging about it.

I just wanted to comment for about five minutes. I will allow an equal five minutes for the hon. member to comment. But that is the other side of the story. It is the complete picture. That is what we have to look at here: both sides of the story. The hon. member can comment.

Speech From The ThroneRoutine Proceedings

11:45 a.m.

Liberal

Derek Lee Liberal Scarborough—Rouge River, ON

Mr. Speaker, I am disappointed to hear all the doom and gloom from the other side. Things are not nearly as bad as the hon. member makes them out to be.

His comment that low interest rates signal a collapsed economy is laughable. Perhaps the member would have visited Japan a couple of years ago and said: "My goodness, you only have a 6 per cent interest rate. Your economy must be collapsed". This is a joke. The member does not understand what a low interest rate means. But let us leave that and move on.

The member has suggested that the Liberals did not agree with the Bank of Canada monetary policy in the last decade. There were times when we did not, that is very true. The Bank of Canada policy in targeting an excessively low inflation rate in the range of 1 to 2 per cent, which it was, underbid what the economy was capable of doing. Consequently it caused a prolonged recession.

People are not going to be told that, but that is what happened. The policy chosen by the bank and adopted by the government prolonged and exacerbated the recession of 1991-92. Liberals would have done it another way, just like we found other ways to make cuts in government spending. There is more than one way to skin a cat.

The member thinks that because we thought we could have done a better job with the free trade agreement with the United States of America and with Mexico, that it is a reason for giving up on trading. Canada does not trade just with the United States or just with Mexico; we trade with the world. Our trade with the rest of the world is expanding.

It is simply inappropriate and silly for the member to focus on the free trade agreement as being the function, the common denominator of the current government policy to foster trade with the rest of the world. The free trade agreement simply does not apply to that type of trade. The World Trade Organization rules do and that is where we are putting our money.

The member suggested that it has been a long time since the throne speech, that we must not have very much going on now that is important if we have started discussing a speech that happened nine months ago. I am sure the hon. member will agree with me

that we have been so darn busy dealing with important legislation that we have not had the time or ability to get back to the throne speech, which was a very good throne speech.

Some day the hon. member and his party will thank the Prime Minister and his government for delivering us through, no matter how they count the deficit, to a stable economy.

Speech From The ThroneRoutine Proceedings

11:45 a.m.

Bloc

Paul Crête Bloc Kamouraska—Rivière-Du-Loup, QC

Mr. Speaker, I want to commend the Liberal member who happens to be the only Liberal who dared to speak in the House this morning to defend the speech from the throne. None of the others did. He is the first one we have heard from. We have not heard from any members from Quebec.

I would like to ask him whether we, members of the official opposition, are not clear proof that this government has done absolutely nothing about the main problem it is facing. It was elected, and now it has across the way, as the official opposition, a sovereignist party that wants to make Quebec a sovereign state. In the past three and one half years, the government has done absolutely nothing to deal with this question.

When you say that you will be glad to go back to your constituents and tell them you got a score of 86 per cent, what are you going to tell them when they say you have done nothing to diminish the impact in Parliament of opposition members who want to completely transform the Canadian entity by turning it into two distinct countries? Do you think Canadians will be proud of the Liberal government's score?

Here is the other question I wanted to ask, very briefly. It is true that interest rates have gone down, but to buy a house today, you need a job. What have you done to ensure that Canadians have jobs?

Speech From The ThroneRoutine Proceedings

11:50 a.m.

The Deputy Speaker

Hon. members will please direct their comments to the Chair.

Speech From The ThroneRoutine Proceedings

11:50 a.m.

Liberal

Derek Lee Liberal Scarborough—Rouge River, ON

Mr. Speaker, I know where the hon. member is coming from and we all do. He has a role to play in opposition. He is critical of the government because it has not been able to help the opposition in its objectives.

There is no way in the world that this government is going to assist the official opposition in its number one goal of partitioning Canada. I am sorry, I regret that we cannot do that. I am not even sure we could do it legally if we wanted to. I hope he will forgive the government for that.

In terms of modernizing the federation, we have gone some distance. After the referendum last year, the government committed to three separate things and we have delivered or gone down the road to delivering on all three. I know the member opposite will agree that the government has done it. It may not accomplish his list. It may not get Canada dissolved. It may not partition Canada but it does deal with the issue of modernizing the federation.

This government is going to continue to work on that agenda using small bites. If the province of British Columbia has a problem with item X and the province of Quebec has a problem with item Y, the federal government is going to work on it. The federal government always has, provided the provinces communicate and the federal government communicates back. We have seen a lot of progress and I think we will see more.

Speech From The ThroneRoutine Proceedings

11:50 a.m.

Bloc

Paul Crête Bloc Kamouraska—Rivière-Du-Loup, QC

Mr. Speaker, I welcome this opportunity today to speak in this debate on the address in reply to the speech from the throne-although this particular speech from the throne goes back to last February-because we now have a better perspective on what the federal government has done in the past six months since it made those promises in the speech from the throne. Today, we are in a better position to evaluate the results.

Last week in committee, I had before me the President of the Treasury Board, who said more or less that the role of government was to meet the expectations of its citizens.

I suggest we evaluate on those terms the government's record on what it promised in the speech from the throne. Did it meet the expectations of its citizens during the past year? Did it meet its objectives, deal with political situations and take corrective action when necessary?

The first item is fighting the deficit. One could say that yes, on the whole they managed to reduce the deficit, at least on the face of it, but in fact, and the hon. member for the Reform Party hit the nail on the head earlier, 42 per cent of the cuts were made in transfer payments to the provinces. This means that today, when we see 50,000 or 60,000 people demonstrating against the provincial government in Ontario, it is largely as a result of these cuts.

Twenty CEGEPs in Quebec are on strike as a result of these federal cuts. The federal government decided to reduce funding in this area because it was easier to cut at the expense of the provinces than to cut closer to home. The most obvious example of this is that this week, the Liberal majority voted against a motion to abolish the Senate.

We spend $43 million a year on the unelected Senate, whose members are appointed for purely partisan reasons. The govern-

ment decided to turn a blind eye to this and continue paying this $43 million but, at the same time, it did not hesitate to cut $1.2 billion from transfer payments to the provinces. Let the provinces deal with their own problems.

That is what the government has done to fight the deficit. So it did not get a passing mark. Clearly, the people of Quebec and Canada are not happy with the results, especially in ridings like mine, where people realize how they hid the fight against the deficit behind UI benefits.

They changed the law, and we will see the results in the coming months. The federal government's day of reckoning has yet to come. It will come when people receive their last UI cheques in February, March or April 1997. They will realize that the reform cut 10, 12, 15 weeks and that they will have to go on social assistance while the UI fund boasts a $5 billion surplus.

This is unacceptable. I almost feel like saying it is practically immoral to let people starve while the UI fund is growing. That is the result of the deficit-fighting measures planned in the Liberal government's throne speech.

As for employment, did this government deliver the goods? Two and a half years ago, it campaigned on the following theme: we will create jobs, we will put people back to work. It did create some jobs, but there are still 800,000 fewer jobs than before the 1990 recession.

Above all, the government did not solve the problem of finding jobs for those who are now unemployed. We can put in place every possible measure to improve Canada's competitiveness in technology, and ensure that engineers and technicians have jobs. Fine, that is great. That is the way to go. But the problem today is that, while technologies are being developed, we have all these people with no technical training who are systematically being put out of work, people whom we are unable to retrain so that they can find another job to support themselves and be proud of it. That is the challenge the Liberal government has failed to take on in any way, shape or form. It is riding the wave of economic recovery. The interest rates have gone down. Great, but that does little to improve the situation of those who cannot afford to invest in the economy. When you are 25 years old and jobless, you do not start a family, buy a house and contribute to society, and that does not make you happy.

The federal government should take a lesson from the Quebec economic summit, where, in a show of solidarity, unions, employers, the government and community organizations all agreed on one thing: there must be a clear and precise job creation target. When did this government agree to set a job creation target like the deficit reduction it had set for itself? It would be a good objective for this government to tell us what it is prepared to do, so that in one, two or three years, the unemployment rate in the country would go down by 2, 3 or 4 per cent, and so that we could see the impacts on quality of life and social expenditures. It would be interesting for Canadians to see their Prime Minister rise in this House and say: "Our challenge will be to ensure that Canada's unemployment rate goes down by 2 per cent over the next two years". This is in fact what labour federations are asking of the Prime Minister. To then see the whole government administration work toward this objective would be of significance.

This is the type of concrete measure that is required, not a speech from the throne in which there is nothing to really change the situation, and in which the government relies on market forces. The result is that those who are solid enough manage to survive, which is fine, but those who are less gifted and who had less opportunities through their education do not. This government evaluates its performance on how it provides an opportunity to the strongest ones. However, a society or a government should assess its record based on the opportunities it provides to each and everyone to make a contribution.

Society should be evaluated on how it uses its human potential. There are people who have not managed to complete their high school, who do not have a job and who have not been retrained. This government will be a good government the day it will make sure everyone is used to his or her full potential and is given an opportunity to make a proper contribution to society.

The speech from the throne alluded to this issue, but these were only words. There is no concrete action or result, and this is very unsatisfactory. As autumn ends and winter begins, a tour through our ridings will bring home the insecurity people feel about jobs and the problems experienced by seasonal workers in particular when they think of what they are facing next February and March with the unemployment insurance reform.

They called it employment insurance. What a terrible piece of marketing. Employment insurance should mean a system that makes it possible to guarantee employment to somebody who has potential and can achieve it. They change the name and the packaging, but the product is even worse than before. It is unacceptable, and the government will certainly be judged on it by the people. I urge the government, if it dares, to go before the public today on this issue. You can count on a very clear and very direct message from Quebecers.

There is another point I wish to raise, which involves something even more basic. It is the issue of this government's leadership. This is a government whose management style is short-sighted. Three years ago, the public elected 54 members of the Bloc Quebecois, a secessionist party, a sovereignist party that wants to create two countries within Canada. The message was not clear enough.

The Prime Minister said that Quebec's problem was an economic one, that the government was going to create jobs and reduce the deficit and the problem would go away. Except that there was the surprise of October 30, 1995, when they realized that, despite everything, 49.4 per cent of Quebecers had voted for sovereignty. That shook them to their short-sighted roots. For almost a month, they had been saying: "This time it is really serious. We had better make promises, something must be done".

The morning after the results were in, they started to say that the only thing the federal government could do was to table a little resolution in the House about distinct society, thinking that then the effort would have been made.

I was never an admirer of Mr. Mulroney, but compare the effort he made in the past to unite Canada with this lack of response to the emergency situation created by the referendum. There is a world of difference. The present government lacks leadership with respect to the situation in Quebec. It is not surprising that Quebecers are the only ones in Canada seriously dissatisfied with the federal government at this time: 68 per cent of them are dissatisfied with the performance of the federal government.

Despite a period of economic growth, despite the fact that there has been at least some progress in the battle against the deficit, is there not a message here which the federal government ought to receive, to which it ought to adjust, on which it ought to make some proposals? Yet nothing is forthcoming. There are no proposals, and they are saying that they will react only once they have come up against a wall. This strikes me as a truly aberrant situation. People are waiting for concrete actions from this government, proof that it is going to react.

To give another example, in the throne speech, reference was made to the pertinence of reforming the way shipping is managed in Canada. The diagnosis is fairly obvious, in my opinion. The federal government has been letting its facilities deteriorate for the past 30 years. The proof of this is that, today, 80 per cent of facilities are more or less useless, because they have never been properly developed. They have just been patched up here and there, over and over.

We are in a problematical situation. The government says that changes must be made, and the first statement made, one which we agree with, is that the job of management was done by people who were too far away from the action, who could not possibly know what the concerns were in each region, who could not do any separate marketing, who could not allow facilities to compete with each other. Solutions had to be sought across Canada before the government could finally grasp that some latitude must be given to these facilities, but there are still many aspects that have not been settled.

The address in response to the throne speech offers me the opportunity to tell the government that there will still be much to be done when the transportation bill is examined in the report or third reading stage. Since Confederation, this field has been characterized by a great deal of political partisanship. Every riding has its own story of someone who was port master because he was a Tory, another who was port master at another time because he was a Grit. These situations have never been settled.

Yesterday in committee I proposed an amendment to ensure that the people appointed are qualified, and it was turned down by the Liberal majority. I was not calling for the minister to stop making appointments, not calling for him to no longer be able to choose between candidates, but only for assurance that they were qualified. Once again, the system took too long for adjustments to be made, and for actions to be taken accordingly. This is a specific problem relating to partisan politics, and one that is important to the public. It is important for the government to show evidence of acting justly.

There is something even more fundamental involved as well. In this reform, there is a provision for the regional ports, the ones that are doing business, but not necessarily on an international scale, to be able to be turned over to local interests.

We have tried, and we must keep on trying to add components to the legislation that will remove the arbitrary, political element and ensure that decisions to invest in Baie-Comeau, Cacouna, New Brunswick or western Canada are not made on the basis of the political colour of their representatives but on the basis of economic interest. The government should use the economic profiles and statistics compiled by officials with the Department of Transport and interpret them intelligently.

Another important aspect is to ensure that ports without any commercial economic activity except a ferry service like Rivière-du-Loup to Saint-Siméon or Trois-Pistoles to Les Escoumins on the North Shore-can be sold at a good price without any interruption of service. This is a good example of the imperfections in our system and the need for reform. Ignoring the need for reform reflects a major lack of leadership on the part of the Canadian government.

If no guarantees are given, we may get some outlandish situations. For instance, the federal government may decide it will no longer maintain a harbour facility, it may decide to get rid of the port of Rivière-du-Loup, for instance, even if the ferry offers an essential service recognized by the Government of Quebec and there is a subsidy for this service.

The federal government, which is responsible for wharves, might decide it no longer has the money and no longer wants to

maintain the facility. The region would then be in a totally unacceptable situation. The government has to move, to react, to implement concrete solutions.

I admit that in this particular case, Bill C-44, there was a lot of consultation. Suggestions were made which were adopted, but many aspects remain to be settled. I hope the government will find a way to do that.

To sum up, should Canadians be satisfied with what they heard in the speech from the throne and the way it has been implemented?

My answer is what people on the street, at the barbershop or the cornerstore are telling me. They ask where are the jobs all these government projects were supposed to provide. They ask me what is happening. Why do they not see any results? People no longer believe that millions of dollars have been cut and millions invested. They want to know if their neighbour will get a job, if any positive result will be achieved anywhere.

In a riding like mine, Kamouraska-Rivière-du-Loup, it will be a few more months before we can see if the government action was successful in any real way. We will have to wait and see if the transactions which are supposed to allow the local community take charge of the port facilities in Cacouna and to ensure the future of the ferries between Rivière-du-Loup and Saint-Siméon, and between Trois-Pistoles and Les Escoumins will come through. That is what matters.

Regarding the employment insurance reform, a bill providing for the conversion of seasonal workers' contribution to the economy will have to be tabled. Seasonal workers must be able to find work during the winter. The government has increased the number of weeks required to qualify for benefits while reducing the benefit period. If only the negative aspects of the UI reform make it, we are headed for a major social crisis. I urge the federal government to find solutions and listen to those organizations that make suggestions.

In my riding, there is a coalition of forest management companies. They are developing a plan, not to artificially create employment or to pay seasonal workers to do nothing, but to provide them with an extra three or four weeks of work, either in the spring or in the fall, through solutions involving forestry, processing forestry products and developing new products in order to achieve interesting results. This is my heartfelt cry to the government in this respect.

We have fought long and hard against employment insurance reform. If the government wants to send a clear message to the regions, where there are many seasonal workers, telling them that there is not only bad news in this reform, time is running out. Act quickly, this is your last chance. The people in my riding will judge you by your actions.

In reply to the speech from the throne, I think we can say, and I will conclude on this, the federal government has shown a blatant lack of leadership in terms of reducing the deficit for instance, by failing to cut back where it should have. In the area of employment, the proposed solutions are not the right ones and, on the constitutional issue, Quebec is being ignored and, to some extent, insulted. If the federal government's attitude does not change, the best solution will be to go our own way, because Quebecers are very patient.

Twice already they asked Canada to change course and come up with proposals and twice Canada declined. The third time will be the right one. The Canadian economy will be completely reorganized and the Canadian territory will be divided in two countries, so that Quebecers can finally make decisions on what is important to them and for their future.

Speech From The ThroneRoutine Proceedings

12:10 p.m.

Reform

Jim Silye Reform Calgary Centre, AB

Mr. Speaker, I would like to compliment the hon. member from the Bloc for a very constructive critique of the government's throne speech. I would like to dwell on one item that was in that throne speech which is of particular importance to his party and his party's objectives.

There was a vague promise made by the Prime Minister months ago when the speech was given and I cannot remember the exact details, that all Canadians would have a say in the next referendum on separation. It is an issue that is very important and I would like to have the member enlighten me and clarify a few things because I am confused about two or three things that happened in the last referendum.

The hon. member indicated in his speech that 49.5 per cent of Quebecers voted yes-it was very close-and that should send a signal to Ottawa. I agree with him. The government is not listening. It is not listening to westerners or to Quebecers and I agree.

I disagree on what the solution is. I do not think it is separation. I am concerned about that. I would like to see Quebec stay in Canada. I would like to see Quebecers and the Bloc Quebecois argue for Quebec in the best interests of Quebec like an opposition party can using those tools to help it.

I found the question in the last referendum to be ambiguous and convoluted. It was not a simple, straight, direct question of the citizens of the province of Quebec. I can verify that with the surveys, the information that came to me from the people who write stories in Le Devoir , which said that 39 per cent, or a high percentage of Quebecers did not really understand what they were

voting on. They thought Quebec could separate and still stay in Canada and have some sort of economic association.

I do not know why there has to be another referendum. Quebecers have voted twice on this issue and twice Quebecers have said to stay in Canada. Should the people of Quebec want another referendum and the member does get another referendum, would he agree that a straight, simple, direct question would be better and clearer for everybody? There would be fewer arguments, fewer flare ups. The question would be in French and English along the lines of: Do you want to separate from Canada, yes or no?

If the answer to that simple and direct question were to be yes-which I hope it would not be-would the member explain to me what the plan is of the Bloc Quebecois? How and when does it plan to negotiate the separation agreement and terms? If there is no mechanism in place, which there is not now and it is not legal now as nothing in the Constitution allows for a province to secede, when do the negotiations start? Who does the negotiations? How does the Bloc Quebecois propose to settle issues, for example the size of the debt, the type of currency, access for Canadians through the province to the east coast. Issues such as those are extremely important.

Those are the questions I would like to be enlightened upon by the hon. member.

Speech From The ThroneRoutine Proceedings

12:15 p.m.

Bloc

Paul Crête Bloc Kamouraska—Rivière-Du-Loup, QC

Mr. Speaker, I thank the Reform member for his question. I find it very significant that this question was asked by a member of the Reform Party. In fact, the Liberals are not asking questions this morning. I wonder what is happening; they seem to be ashamed of the throne speech.

It is the kind of question Canadians should ask themselves. Such questions must be raised outside Quebec so we can search for a solution and decide how the matter should be settled.

They are asking if Canadians will have a role to play in Quebec's next referendum. I myself think Canadians have a role to play now. If you want to show the people of Quebec that this country has a future, it is up to you. It is up to the Canadians to put their proposals on the table. But without any proposals, we cannot give you any answers, or even make suggestions. There is no leadership in this government. No one has made any significant proposal. What is clearer and more shocking to Quebecers is that this government's reforms are all superficial.

Back in October 1995, things were heating up as minor proposals were being made left and right. One month later, they started to forget. And then last month, the Prime Minister repeated what he was saying in the fall of 1993: that Canada's problem is an economic one; that once the economy recovers, Quebecers will understand that Canada is the greatest country in the world and they will stay.

Even if Quebec and Canada's economic situation were the best in the world, the fact is that a process is taking place in Quebec. A people is moving forward. A people is slowly learning. The numbers went from 40 per cent in 1980 to 49.4 per cent last year, and if the federal government does not meet their expectations, this people will choose to become a sovereign state.

It will do so following a question whose wording will have been decided by Quebec's National Assembly, the only parliament in which Quebecers form a majority. This view is shared not only by the current premier, Mr. Bouchard, but also by the leader of the opposition, Daniel Johnson, and by the leader of Action démocratique, Mario Dumont.

All Quebecers agree as regards the question. We are mature people. We do not live in a banana republic. We put a question twice. The first time, in 1980, we asked Quebecers for a mandate to negotiate. Forty per cent of the voters were prepared to merely let us negotiate. Last year, 49 per cent of them wanted us to build a country and to offer partnership to the rest of Canada. This is a very significant progress, because had we asked the same question last year as we did in 1980, the result may have been 55 or 60 per cent. This is an assumption, but one that could well reflect reality. In any case, Quebecers are making progress and sending a clear message to the current Liberal government.

So, the question will be decided by the elected members of the Quebec Parliament. Until then, Canadians should tell us what they want. They have time to make proposals to us.

The Canadian confederation is not unchanging. Since francophones and anglophones have been present in North America, we have had three or four different forms of government: Upper and Lower Canada, the Canadian Union and the Confederation. We must find formulae that are right for this economic entity. With the new rules of the game, such as the free trade agreement, this is very obvious.

When I travelled through western Canada with the transport committee, this was brought home to me very strongly. Now, all trade runs in a North-South direction. Everyone is asking us for railway lines and highways that go south. This will bring about a fundamental transformation of Canada, independently of the options offered by politicians. This is therefore something that must be looked at. Quebecers and Canadians must behave like mature adults and tell one another that, in future, they wish to function in a different manner, work differently together.

Therefore the question "Are we going to separate or not?" does not strike me as the right question to ask. The question Quebecers should be asked should be: "Is there a formula that you would like to see, because the present one does not suit you?" Basically, what they have always wanted is a sovereign state, with all decision-making powers in Quebec.

It must be recalled that what Quebecers agreed to in 1867 was cultural and educational security, but we continued to grow and mature and now we are prepared to take over all responsibilities. Since I have been transport critic, I realize just how much the fact that Quebecers do not have jurisdiction over transportation has created major problems for them. Not because Canadians systematically have it in for Quebec, but because decisions have been taken that favoured east-west development rather than north-south development, for example, which was devastating for Quebec's economy.

This is where it starts to get interesting again. Our challenge, on the eve of the twenty-first century, whatever form Canada takes, will be to develop this north-south link, but we must adapt our political institutions to this new reality.

I will conclude by saying that our greatest criticism of the present Liberal government is that it lacks the basic leadership to resolve the problems of the year 2000. Sorting out this year's problems is not too bad, but a government's responsibility extends further. It must also have a vision of the future, and this is where the Liberals do not make the grade.

Speech From The ThroneRoutine Proceedings

12:20 p.m.

Liberal

Eugène Bellemare Liberal Carleton—Gloucester, ON

Mr. Speaker, I appreciate this opportunity to say a few words on the government's throne speech, which I find most appropriate at this time.

When the Liberal Party formed the government in 1993, the country was, in my opinion, headed toward disaster. We were dreadfully in debt. Before our time, the whole idea had been to spend, spend, spend. The mortgage on the country, in other words the national debt, was increasing madly. Every year we had a deficit which was getting up near $50 billion.

Suddenly, in 1993, the new Liberal government was faced with a situation calling for an economic program that held out some hope for Canadians, some hope for young people, some hope for their future and for the future of Canadian workers, and in particular some reassurance for seniors about government programs.

Yes, the government did want to make cuts.

The bond market had a very negative outlook for Canada in 1993. The interest rates were going up and one wondered if the international bond markets would keep on giving us a triple A rating. We were near collapse, going in the other direction, and not even getting requests for the purchase of bonds.

A program had to be instituted to put our house in order. That is exactly what has happened. The deficit has kept going down, down, down.

The government does not create jobs. It did that in the past and it is only short term when it occurs. What we have to do is establish a climate for jobs and that climate has to be the proper economic climate.

Our program was disciplined in cutting some programs. We are downsizing government, not shutting down government. That is the difference between us and some members of the opposition. We do not want to shut down government.

We have to stop giving to everyone who thinks that all they have to do is write to the government requesting a grant. We have to do this in a reasonable fashion.

This morning the interest rates decreased again. We have not seen interest rates like these in 40 years. People can now borrow to buy a home or to invest in some other fashion. That will create jobs. That is good. People can now spend money. It is affordable to borrow money in order to invest it. It is not to borrow money to have fun, to be wasteful. It is for investment, for example, in a home. Equity will build in that home and when it is sold in the future the owner will be able to live on that equity or they will be able to leave it to their children. We have to think of leaving something to our children.

We had to downsize government. Government programs had to be cut. I had some concerns about that because my constituency is comprised of many public servants and people who have contracts with the federal government. As vice-chair of the government operations committee I was very diligent in ensuring there would be no abuse on anyone's part.

The program review was to cut programs in an effort to downsize the federal government. There was a question of a lump sum of money that was to be cut. Obviously some jobs had to be annihilated. We had to let go and make way for a better system. We had to improve the way in which we were working. This meant we had to abandon those activities that did not need to keep going.

We privatized in areas where the private sector could do better. For example, we privatized many activities that were once under Transport Canada. We developed Nav Canada and a great number of public servants who once worked for Transport Canada were transferred to this new private sector organization.

The media interpretation was that 45,000 jobs would be lost. I did not appreciate the fact that 45,000 employees would be laid off. Lately one newspaper reported that with the new calculations the

number could be more like 55,000. Obviously this has a very negative impact on the community. This made people in the national capital region business community very insecure and the economy slowed down quite a bit.

However, in the downsizing process the government made sure it did not maltreat its employees. We had programs like early retirement. The early retirement program was oversubscribed to. Many public servants, those who were getting close to retirement age, thought this was a wonderful opportunity to retire.

Others accepted the early departure incentive. They were mostly public servants, managers or middle managers who were interested in going into private business. They are now the people in the national capital region who are working for the government, doing some projects, working on contracts. They are now the private contractors in the region.

We have saved a great deal of money but I do have concerns. I want to make sure the government does not save money by downsizing on the one hand while on the other hand increasing by a phenomenal amount the money spent on contracting out. This is something I am watching for very diligently at the committee on government operations.

In September 1995 the unemployment rate in the national capital region was 10.1 per cent. That percentage has now gone down to 7.4 per cent, an improvement. People in the national capital region are starting to feel secure again.

They are at ease, can see that there is some future, and the Canadian government decided that the National Capital Region would not be a "one horse town", that it would have a mixture of private industry and public industry.

As well, organizations such as Systemhouse have sprung up, where former public servants have started up in high tech, and now the National Capital Region has a burgeoning high tech industry.

The National Capital Region has, in fact, now become the major North American centre for high technology.

There is a balance between the private sector and the public sector now. I am happy to report that the public service is improving constantly in its effectiveness and efficiency. I am asking the government to make sure, though, that there is a renewal, that there is an opportunity for the young to be able to enter our reputable public service.

We have to make sure that there is an entry situation where young graduates can come to work with the federal government and, if not the federal government, work on contracts for the federal government. That is very essential. I appreciate the opportunity to address the House on the question of the throne speech.

Speech From The ThroneRoutine Proceedings

12:30 p.m.

Liberal

Maurizio Bevilacqua Liberal York North, ON

Mr. Speaker, I paid attention to the hon. member's speech. I can vouch for the excellent representation he gives to the people of Gloucester. He has been an excellent representative.

I would like to give him an opportunity. In the nation's capital, in the House of Commons, we often speak of billion dollar budgets. We speak about deficits in a very macro way.

We speak of the lowering of the deficit, the fact that we have not increased personal income tax, the fact that the crime rate has declined, as have interest rates. I would like the hon. member to give us a feel of what has happened in his community as a result of the policy directions that this government has undertaken in the areas I cited.

Speech From The ThroneRoutine Proceedings

12:30 p.m.

Liberal

Eugène Bellemare Liberal Carleton—Gloucester, ON

Mr. Speaker, I thank the member from Toronto for his kind words.

In my riding, business is doing well. The private sector is getting contracts. There is a movement in high technology in my community. This afternoon, I will go to the opening of AMITA, a high technology group of about 50 employees that are starting a business in my community.

Almost every second week, a new business is starting, always in high tech. Because of globalization, we have to do things very differently. It is time for high technology.

We are very lucky that the national capital region a few years ago started in high tech. Now we are becoming the high tech capital above the American border. There is high tech in the United States and the other place is right here in the national capital region.

Private industry is developing. Both universities and the two colleges are producing specialists in high tech. Jobs are being developed to the point where, at this moment, we are told that thousands of jobs are available in high tech in the national capital region that have not been filled yet.

The universities and colleges are trying to produce as quickly as possible graduates to fill these jobs. This is a very big plus for our community. Things are going better and better all the time.

People feel secure. People feel a sense of hope. People feel that there is growth. By gosh, the national capital region is a heck of a nice place to grow and to have a family.

Speech From The ThroneRoutine Proceedings

12:30 p.m.

Reform

Jim Silye Reform Calgary Centre, AB

Mr. Speaker, I would like to comment on the speech of the hon. member where he talked about the advantages of lower interest rates. There is no question that low interest rates mean significant savings for consumers and businesses. It puts more money into the marketplace.

However, to only zero in on that aspect and to only point out its benefits, is wrong. That is only one sector of the population, only the borrowers of the nation. It is only people who can borrow money, qualify for loans or who already have loans in place. It is not all Canadians. It is not all good news for all Canadians. It is good news for those who have debts. It is also good news for this government because it is lowering the cost of its huge debt which does help all Canadians.

However, because it only benefits the borrowers, what message is the government giving to those who do not have loans and who do not borrow? What are in the policies of the Liberal Party for the pensioners who have had been reduced and have lost their senior age exemption? What about the students who do not have loans and cannot borrow money? What is the government-

Speech From The ThroneRoutine Proceedings

12:35 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Milliken)

Order. The hon. member has asked a question. I said it had to be very brief. This is five minutes questions and comments. Five are gone. I call on the hon. member for Carleton-Gloucester for a very short reply.

Speech From The ThroneRoutine Proceedings

12:35 p.m.

Liberal

Eugène Bellemare Liberal Carleton—Gloucester, ON

Mr. Speaker, what we are hearing is the point of view of the Reform Party, a party that wants to shut down government and government operations altogether. It does not care about people who want to invest. In order to invest they need to borrow money. They have to roll money around. For these same people for whom Reformers say they want to protect the interest rates, they seem to suggest that the interest rate should go high.

The Reform members are looking at their buddies who have lots of money and they do not care about anybody else. Perhaps on Sunday morning they give a donation to the odd person. They only care about people with money. They do not care about promoting the economy and those who want it developed.

Speech From The ThroneRoutine Proceedings

November 7th, 1996 / 12:35 p.m.

Liberal

Tony Valeri Liberal Lincoln, ON

Mr. Speaker, I am very pleased to have the opportunity to speak this afternoon on the throne speech, a speech which reflects the real needs and concerns of Canadians.

The Liberal government's jobs and growth agenda has provided Canadians with renewed hope for the future and its agenda is focused on creating opportunity for Canadians, through a fiscal climate which encourages investment, through ensuring that our youth have the tools they require in order to fully contribute to Canada's growth and competitiveness and through strengthening our small businesses, a primary source for job creation and innovation.

Today we are faced with a markedly different fiscal situation than the one we faced when we took office. Interest rates are at the lowest point in 38 years and that means Canadians have new opportunities for investment and growth. All Canadians benefit from lower interest rates; from home owners to small businesses in my riding of Lincoln.

Inflationary rates are also at 38-year lows. Lower inflationary rates mean that Canadians can operate in a stable economic environment. They can more confidently plan for their futures.

Nowhere has the government's success in creating a stronger fiscal environment been more evident than in its efforts to reduce the huge deficit inherited when we took office. Indeed, getting the government finances under control has been the most effective way of getting interest rates down.

After program review and rationalization, we have brought government spending under control. Today, we have not only projected that the deficit target of 3 per cent of GDP will be met but this target will be surpassed and in 1998-99 the deficit target of about 1 per cent of GDP will be met.

Clearly the approach to restoring fiscal health has been measured, deliberate and responsible. It has involved carefully reducing spending, restructuring government and strengthening the economy. This approach continues to reflect the desire of Canadians to have their government develop a more sophisticated approach to deficit reduction. It has not imposed greater costs on the greater taxpayer by raising their personal income taxes. Nor has the approach been a slash and burn attempt to get government spending under control.

Borrowing on the backs of our children and grandchildren will soon be in the past. Speaking of our youth, they have been identified as being a vital resource in the continuing effort to stay competitive. Today many young people remain unemployed. Our youth are worried that the future will not hold jobs for them. Employers are saying that there are jobs but that they are having difficulty in finding the skilled labour they need in order to grow and compete. Experts are telling us that the pursuit of education is still important to success in the job market. Far sighted Canadians everywhere argue that the country cannot afford to squander the talents and creativity of our youth. I know that all government members are aware of these concerns and are actively seeking solutions. Clearly, young people need more help in making the transition into the working world. They need more help in getting that crucial first job.

The government has doubled its summer employment programs. It has also made a commitment to work with the provinces and with the private sector. This type of co-operation is being encouraged at all levels. Canadians want to know that all their elected officials are working together, no matter what jurisdiction they represent.

In this process, partnerships are essential. Many Canadians have expressed that only partnerships can solve the short and long term challenges of youth unemployment. More needs to be done for our

youth and they can be assured that progress will be made because on this side of the House it has been made a priority.

Let me also address the role of small businesses in our economy and in our country. Small businesses are the backbone of the economic community of my riding of Lincoln. This fact is not unusual given that the small business sector is very important to the entire Canadian economy. Indeed, hope for our youth and for the future competitiveness of our country rests with a strong small business sector. Small businesses, including the self-employed, now account for almost two-thirds of all private sector employment and approximately 60 per cent of Canada's economic output.

As a small business owner, I know that the entrepreneurial spirit that drives the small and medium sized business sector needs to be encouraged and fostered because our economic well-being depends on it.

What is the small business community saying? It is saying that access to capital in the start-up and expansion phase is still very important. The banks have done some work in this area and they can point to areas of success where they have increased their access for small business. But the demand is still there.

Small businesses are asking for higher risk debt capital. It is a paradox that there are a number of small businesses in the community which require more funds for start up or for expansion, yet do not have the collateral to support the actual capital requirements. At the same time they have good export ideas. If the capital was available they would be able to expand their business and create employment, adding to the GDP of the country. We need more of what I will call high risk debt capital. We would look at the credit rating of a particular small business person and based on that rating the banks would provide the required capital.

As a government we need to continue to fight and to work toward eliminating the regulatory barriers and the paper burdens. We have made some progress in that area. It is still a concern of small business and the government will continue to work toward the elimination of regulatory barriers and paper burden.

As I mentioned earlier with respect to our youth, there is a need to access skilled workers. There is still a mismatch out there. The small business community requires skilled individuals. It has positions to fill and is crying out, telling us that Canada does not have the skilled workers to fill those jobs. We need to address that, in partnership with the provinces, with the educational and post-secondary institutions. Those are the partnerships that need to be forged to deal with the question of providing skilled workers.

There is also a call from the small business community for a reduction in payroll taxes, for some help in that area because they claim they will be able to create employment if payroll taxes are reduced. There has also been a cry for some direct incentives to hire new employees and for some type of program that would help the micro businesses that may need some assistance and some type of relief. This would allow them to hire the one or two people they need in order to continue to grow, expand and contribute to the GDP of this country, to their local communities and to their local economies.

Those are a number of the issues and concerns brought forward by the small business community not only in my community but I am sure right across the country. This government will continue to work hand in hand with the private sector, with representatives of the small business sector to meet the needs of the small business community.

This government believes that the small business community is the engine and the backbone of the economy. We look to the small business community to assist Canada, to assist this government and to assist all Canadians in working, in being competitive, in being efficient and creating those employment opportunities and jobs. This government will continue to improve the climate for small businesses and certainly will allow them to continue to compete globally. This particular sector of our economy is crucially important.

In terms of what this government has recently done to assist in access to capital for the small business community, the Canada community investment program was announced some weeks ago. Communities from across the country are now participating in pilot projects. We in the Lincoln area were very fortunate to have had the opportunity to partner with the Hamilton, Brantford, Burlington, Haldimand-Norfolk area, along with the Six Nations in submitting an application for the Canada community investment program.

The government will go forward to provide infrastructure dollars to assist local communities in coming together to provide that increased access to capital for small business. Those in small business are the employers and they are the medium size and multinational companies of the future.

Speech From The ThroneRoutine Proceedings

12:45 p.m.

Liberal

Harold Culbert Liberal Carleton—Charlotte, NB

Mr. Speaker, I listened with great interest to my hon. colleague's excellent presentation. I note his tremendous interest and enthusiasm for small business and industry in his riding, but more so right across this country of ours.

Having had the opportunity to speak with many of the small business people in my constituency, they are telling me as their member of Parliament to stay the course and to encourage the Minister of Finance to stay the course, to continue to bring our financial house in order, to continue with those low interest rates,

to continue with a low inflation under control. That is what complements small business and the jobs that will go with it.

My question is based on the projections many economists and the OECD are making that among the G-7 nations, in 1997 Canada will actually exceed all of them in economic advancement and growth. Perhaps the hon. member for Lincoln would like to comment on this and on all the actions that have been taken, but is it enough? Are there other things we should be doing to encourage small business knowing that indeed those in small business are the ones that will produce additional jobs in this country?

Speech From The ThroneRoutine Proceedings

12:45 p.m.

Liberal

Tony Valeri Liberal Lincoln, ON

Mr. Speaker, certainly small businesses in the constituency of Lincoln and in speaking with small businesses across the country, they want us to stay the course. They want us to continue to fight the deficit, move to a zero deficit and continue to maintain those low interest rates and the low inflationary course we are on. Certainly they are very much in support of the government's macro approach to our economy.

As mentioned by the hon. member, Canada will lead the G-7 in terms of economic growth in the coming years. In fact, yesterday in Toronto the Bank of Canada indicated that it expects in 1997 there will be growth in our economy because of the approach which has been taken, because of low interest rates and because of low inflationary measures.

What else needs to be done? Certainly we need to focus on the continued access to capital that small businesses need. We need to continue to focus on providing small businesses with the necessary skills and manpower which they need in order to continue to compete.

In order for small businesses to compete globally we need to assist them with the tools to export. We need to get small business into the export market in a much bigger way. This country does not have as many small businesses exporting as it should have. We will work to ensure that the small business sector has the tools which are required to penetrate those markets. We are doing some of that by using the team Canada approach. There is also information which we need to provide to the small business sector. We need to identify global markets for the small business sector. We have to do more of that at the micro level.

Those are a couple of things we need to do in support of the macro approach. We also need to take micro approaches for the small business sector.

Speech From The ThroneRoutine Proceedings

12:50 p.m.

Reform

Jake Hoeppner Reform Lisgar—Marquette, MB

Mr. Speaker, I listened with great interest to the comments of the hon. member.

The previous Liberal government tried to control inflation with 24 per cent interest rates. That now seems to have been the wrong approach. Has the Prime Minister drastically changed his definition of what is right and what is wrong?

I heard this morning that our gross domestic product has only increased by 1.1 per cent in the last year. With the low interest rates, how can he make the comment that the government is on the right track? To me it seems that the gross domestic product has to increase by more than 1.1 per cent.

Speech From The ThroneRoutine Proceedings

12:50 p.m.

Liberal

Tony Valeri Liberal Lincoln, ON

Mr. Speaker, what the hon. member fails to understand is that the approach we have taken and the reason interest rates and inflation rates are low today is that we looked at government structure, we looked at government spending, we went through the program review, we went through the restructuring of government and we reduced spending in government. We have said that we cannot be all things to all people. We have taken a targeted approach with respect to what government can do and does best. In doing so we have put in place the structural changes which have brought the lower interest rates and the lower inflation rates.

When this approach was being taken by the government a number of years ago, members opposite cried out and said that it would never work, that we needed to cut, slash and burn. That is their approach: Do it tomorrow; do it soon. They said that if we continued on the same track we would hit the wall.

We did not hit the wall. Interest rates are low. Inflation is low. We are being heralded around the world as one country which has taken the direct approach and ensured that our economic fundamentals are in place. We will continue to prosper.

Speech From The ThroneRoutine Proceedings

12:50 p.m.

Reform

Cliff Breitkreuz Reform Yellowhead, AB

Mr. Speaker, I will be splitting my time with the member for Kootenay East.

I am pleased to rise in the House to speak on the speech from the throne, even though it has been nine months since the throne speech was first read. Instead of calling it the speech from the throne, maybe we should call it the old speech. We are here today talking about an old speech, with an old vision and old tired ideas that have not worked in the past and certainly will not work in the future. Ideas such as distinct society for Quebec. That was clearly and decisively rejected by Canadians across the country in the Charlottetown accord.

In the throne speech the government mentioned changing the law and making amendments to the Criminal Code. It seems that all we really got was some tinkering and not the major changes people talked about. All we got was some pretty thin soup. Canadians are asking, in fact they are demanding that government get tough on crime. For example, did we get from this government a victims bill

of rights? No we did not. Not until my colleague from Fraser Valley West introduced his private member's bill.

Our criminal justice system is in a state of disarray. It is out of touch. It is insensitive to the victims and their families. It is bureaucratic and moves slowly. We are all familiar with the phrase "justice delayed is justice denied". I have a fistful of examples from right across the country of how inefficient and soft our criminal justice system is on criminals.

I would like to zero in on one example from my riding of Yellowhead of how our criminal justice system works. It is with regard to the experiences of Judy and Don Thwaites who live in the town of Whitecourt, Alberta. It is a story I would rather not tell but it is very explicit of how our system works, or conversely, how our system does not work; hence my relating this letter in the House.

Judy and Don had a couple of children, including daughter Norma who on January 25, 1981 was 17 years old. On the mentioned date Norma, who was doing post-secondary studies in Edmonton, was home for a visit. On the night of January 25 Norma was strangled to death. Then her lifeless body was raped by Larry Read. Norma was left in a vehicle and her frozen body was discovered by the RCMP the next morning. These are the basic facts of the case. It is not necessary for me to describe in greater detail the utterly despicable action against this young woman, a 17-year old teenager.

The letter from Mrs. Thwaites does not go into detail with respect to the murder of her daughter but rather she describes the system and her dealings with the system. Her letter is addressed to me dated March 29, 1995, re Larry Gene Read: "I am writing to you about the above person, Larry Read, and his actions against my daughter, Norma, on January 25, 1981. I would at this time like to give you a point by point account of what happened after Read was arrested for the murder of my daughter, Norma.

"Read was arrested within 24 hours of the murder of Norma in the city of Grand Prairie, Alberta approximately 170 miles northwest of Whitecourt or about 300 miles northwest of the city of Edmonton". A common thread in Judy's letter is that she has great praise for the RCMP: "We commend the RCMP for their prompt arrest and for the concern and caring they showed to our family not only at the time but in the years of agony and sorrow we suffered from that day until the present time. We were always showed consideration in every way through the arrest, preliminary hearing, two trials over a four year period and the sentencing. I would like the people concerned with the judicial system of Canada to know that about the RCMP.

"My husband and I were present at the preliminary hearing held in Whitecourt in May in 1981. It lasted approximately two and a half weeks. We were never called by any member of the court system to brief us on what would take place at this hearing". My colleague's private member's bill remedies this complete omission of the victim.

"We are never called by any member of the court system to brief us on what would take place at this hearing. Once again, we were told what they were able to let us know, legally, by the RCMP". Then she asks a question: "How come there is no provision made for the victims' families to enable them to handle this agonizing and tortuous procedure? After the preliminary hearing it was determined that the courts had enough evidence to proceed to trial. The trial was held in Edmonton and started exactly one year to the date that Norma was murdered".

She goes on to say how despicable that was: "I realize that the courts are very full, but that is gross injustice to the family members. Once again, we were never informed of what would take place. Indeed, we were never informed about the trial date. This information was provided by the RCMP investigations officer who was our sole moral support through all of this affair".

Then she asks another question: "Why is there no provision by the government to provide a person who would let the family know what has taken place over the past year, while waiting for the trial, and a run down on what to expect? I can appreciate that they cannot take the time for every detail but they could surely write a letter to let the date of the trial be known a few weeks ahead". This is also a provision in the private member's bill, which is supposed to be in committee but I fear that is where it will rest for a long long time.

"During the trial we were never approached by anyone from the crown prosecutor's office to inform us what tactic it would be using to establish the guilt of the murderer. We did seek to speak to the crown prosecutor and he did reluctantly divulge a little of what he planned to use against the murderer. After the trial was over and the judge addressed the jury to let it know what constituted first degree, second degree and manslaughter he made a mistake in his address to the jury which confused it and resulted in the charge being reduced to second degree murder.

"Read was found guilty of second degree murder by the jury and it recommended that he be given the maximum sentence of 15 years in prison with no chance of early parole. The judge reduced this sentence to 13 years and we do not know why". The Thwaites do not know why.

"Because the judge confused the jury when he was explaining what constituted what for the three classifications, Read was given a hearing for a new trial and he won that. The second trial was held four years after the first trial. It started in January of 1985 and once again was a nightmare for us.

"Some of the witnesses from the first trial could not be located. It was, to say the least, a catastrophe for us. The witnesses could no longer remember things that had happened five years before, and who could fault them?

"Once again, we were informed by the RCMP that there was a new trial. Not once were we written or phoned by any justice system official to tell us that we had to go to hell and back again. This lack of consideration by the so-called system is about as cruel as it can get".

She asks another question: "When are they going to quit mollycoddling these murderers? My daughter suffered amounts which I cannot bear to think about. Read has suffered nothing and is indeed protected from any pain by being placed in protective custody. When are they going to wake up to the fact that these pyschopaths are of little value to society?

"After the second trial was over and the jury found Read guilty of manslaughter, he was sentenced to seven years in prison with no chance of parole. That was a very hard blow to us, as you can well imagine. I was by this time in a terrible rage over the lack of justice by our so-called system which I had, like all other Canadians, believed in. I must admit I am a much wiser person now. There is no justice system in our country and people are beginning to conclude that what we have rather than a justice system in this country is a legal industry.

"Six years after Norma was murdered and raped by Larry Read, I finally found-my local doctor referred me because he could not help me to handle the rage I felt over all of the injustices I had suffered, and the terrible grief I felt over my girl not dying by an accident or by sickness, but because a human being had deliberately killed her for his own pleasure".

A Reform government would put the rights of the victim ahead of the rights of the criminal.

Here is what she has to say about getting some assistance: "There is no one in Canada who anyone knew about at the time who had any training to help victims of this type of crime. I was indeed fortunate that I was referred to a Dr. Watson in Edmonton who was very knowledgeable about psychopaths. He told me that he was familiar with my case from discussions with his colleagues and by reading the newspaper accounts of the case. He was the first person to tell me that Read was a psychopath and that there was no cure whatsoever for these people.

"He also told me that he had never counselled anyone or had any training in counselling anyone who had suffered having a person murdered in their family. He did not know of anyone in Canada who had ever received any training, either gone to the U.S.A. or any place-".