House of Commons Hansard #52 of the 35th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was kempling.

Topics

Questions On The Order PaperRoutine Proceedings

4:10 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Kilger)

Shall all questions stand?

Questions On The Order PaperRoutine Proceedings

4:10 p.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

Motions For PapersRoutine Proceedings

May 29th, 1996 / 4:10 p.m.

Fundy Royal New Brunswick

Liberal

Paul Zed LiberalParliamentary Secretary to Leader of the Government in the House of Commons

Mr. Speaker, I ask that all Notices of Motions for the Production of Papers be allowed to stand.

Motions For PapersRoutine Proceedings

4:10 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Kilger)

Is that agreed?

Motions For PapersRoutine Proceedings

4:10 p.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

Motions For PapersRoutine Proceedings

4:10 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Kilger)

I wish to inform the House that because of the ministerial statement Government Orders will be extended by 18 minutes.

Civil Air Navigation Services Commercialization ActGovernment Orders

4:10 p.m.

Victoria B.C.

Liberal

David Anderson LiberalMinister of Transport

moved that Bill C-20, an act respecting the commercialization of civil air navigation services, be read the third time and passed.

Civil Air Navigation Services Commercialization ActGovernment Orders

4:10 p.m.

Hamilton West Ontario

Liberal

Stan Keyes LiberalParliamentary Secretary to Minister of Transport

Mr. Speaker, I consider it a privilege to rise today to speak at third reading of Bill C-20, the act which will provide the legal means to transfer the air navigation system currently operated by Transport Canada to a private not for profit corporation, Nav Canada.

As members know, the bill carries out the decision which was taken by this government to commercialize the air navigation system announced back in February 1995 in the federal budget. In December 1995 an agreement in principle was reached for the sale of ANS to Nav Canada for the purchase price of $1.5 billion. Now that is a very significant contribution to the government's deficit reduction efforts.

I am pleased to highlight that on April 1, 1996 the Minister of Transport along with Nav Canada representatives signed the agreement to transfer which will allow this transaction to proceed to closing, subject to a number of conditions of course. Key among them are the approval of this legislation by Parliament and Nav Canada's ability to raise the required $1.5 billion purchase price for this not for profit entity.

Bill C-20 has received the benefit of thoughtful consideration by the members of the Standing Committee on Transport who, in addition to carrying out their own review and analysis of the legislation, also heard from a number of important national and regional witnesses representing, among others, industry, labour, government and community groups. A number of written briefs were also submitted. For all of these efforts we want to extend our appreciation.

A number of the witnesses demonstrated strong, unconditional support of the bill, recognizing the desirability and necessity of commercialization. Some of these were the Air Transport Association of Canada, the Aerospace Industries Association and Air Canada, the Nav Canada Bargaining Agents Association, including the Canadian Air Traffic Control Association and the Canadian Airline Pilots Association.

Other witnesses expressed a range of concerns, some of which were outside the scope of the legislation. However, I believe the government was well able to address many of these concerns.

There was a concern that Nav Canada might not continue to operate the ANS in a bilingual environment. In fact, the bill is very clear that the Official Languages Act will apply to Nav Canada as if it were a federal institution. It ensures the use of both official languages in communications with the public and the language of work. This is entirely consistent with established practice and is reflective of the national nature of Nav Canada activities. In the same context, Nav Canada has already enacted bilingual bylaws.

Another concern involved what some believed was an absence of regional representation. I want to reassure the House that this is simply an unfounded concern. In fact, the make-up of Nav Canada's board of directors and its newly appointed advisory committee, about which I will speak in a minute, have been

designed to bring a wide range of regional and other perspectives to the Nav Canada decision making process.

What is more, the two national trade associations, the Air Transport Association of Canada and the Canadian Business Aviation Association, have member groups of all sizes appointing directors to the Nav Canada board. They are drawn from all provinces and territories. These members are likely to account for more than 90 per cent of the current ANS revenues to be generated by Canadian operators.

The testimony of all the witnesses who appeared before the Standing Committee on Transport provided a very useful and timely perspective on their diverse interests. This has been helpful in setting the broadest possible context, moving the legislation forward in support of the further streamlining and modernizing of Canada's transportation industry.

Before going further, I would like to take the opportunity to commend the members of the Standing Committee on Transport, of which I am also a member, for their judicious handling of the legislation and the whole legislative review process to date, and for enabling this precedent setting bill to progress to this stage in the parliamentary process.

Let us look at the legislation for what it is. The bill represents a careful balancing of the commercial interests of the new ANS entity and the interests of the Canadian public. The bill will give Nav Canada the commercial freedoms it needs to develop and maintain a safe, efficient, cost effective and technologically advanced air navigation system while at the same time looking after the public interest by imposing certain operating conditions on Nav Canada and establishing a regulatory framework. For example, the bill ensures a continued high level of system safety by clearly establishing the supremacy of the Aeronautics Act and regulations made pursuant to the act.

Canada, perhaps more than any other country in the world, with its geographical uniqueness is dependent on air transportation that must be reliable, safe and competitive. The network of air traffic control services, flight information services, aviation weather services and navigational aids which comprise the ANS provide for this necessary safe and expeditious movement of aircraft in Canada.

For over 50 years Transport Canada has managed the safe provision of these air navigation services to the industry and to meet the needs of the travelling public. However, government realized that it does not need to own or operate the air navigation service to ensure that the public interest is met. Legislation, regulation and other means can accomplish this.

ANS commercialization is therefore a very visible demonstration of this commitment. It is yet another example, along with a host of others such as the commercialization of federal airports, ports and harbours and Canadian National, of initiatives that will move Canadian transportation into the 21st century. It will also move Transport Canada away from being the operator of the system toward a more policy and regulatory role, but I stress with a continued priority on safety. This government remains committed to streamlining and moving away from activities that can be operated more efficiently by the private sector unfettered by government processes.

Although internationally, commercialization of aviation facilities and services is progressing steadily, Canada is the first country to establish a commercial air navigation system entity without government ownership. This is an important precedent setting milestone.

A few words about Nav Canada's not for profit organization model are in order at this point to provide another context for understanding the uniqueness of this particular transaction. This model was the choice of an advisory committee of users, unions and other stakeholders who, over the course of several months, studied various commercialization options.

Since the time of its incorporation in May 1995, Nav Canada has carried out the necessary extensive due diligence process associated with purchasing the entity, and which contemplated the overall negotiation process leading to the $1.5 billion agreement in principle with Transport Canada in December 1995, and the signing of the larger agreement to transfer on April 1, 1996.

Nav Canada is also proceeding to establish itself as a responsible corporate citizen such as with the appointment of a board of directors, the naming of a president and chief executive officer and in other tangible ways that will ensure prudent corporate governance, including the articulation of a code of conduct and conflict of interest guidelines. Its unique structure with board members appointed by user associations, unions, government, as well as independents, will ensure that the corporation receives the benefit of a wide range of stakeholder views to guide its operations.

At its first annual meeting held in Ottawa in April 1996, which was open to and very well attended by the public, it announced the appointment of an advisory committee of 15 members from a broad range of groups, including Quebec, B.C. and Saskatchewan regional associations. This, along with the broad representation of the board of directors, should provide a further measure of reassurance regarding the opportunity for the inclusion of Canadians regionally and nationally in Nav Canada decision making.

Nav Canada through its annual report has highlighted four corporate priorities it will pursue as the operator of the ANS: people, safety, technology and service. Of particular importance to the government and public interest of course is Nav Canada's commitment to safety as the core of every operating policy, procedure and activity performed by Nav Canada. Nav Canada also recognizes the role which Transport Canada will continue to play in the establishment and monitoring of safety regulations and standards.

The point here is that Nav Canada is demonstrating that it understands only too well the critical mandate it will have as the operator of the system and the priority it is placing on successfully meeting these challenges.

I will now very briefly reiterate some of the key provisions of Bill C-20 which continue to be the cornerstones of this legislation.

Safety will continue to have the highest priority for Transport Canada. Safety regulations will be in place before ANS is transferred. Transport Canada will monitor and enforce compliance with these regulations as it does now in the case of airlines. The Aeronautics Act which sets out the regulatory framework to maintain the safety and integrity of the aviation industry will prevail. I point out to members of the Bloc that it will prevail over the ANS Act.

The transfer will see approximately 6,400 public servants being offered positions with Nav Canada with equivalent working conditions and benefits. During the transition period until Nav Canada reaches its own agreements with the employees, the current collective agreements will continue to apply and bargaining agents will be granted successor rights. This tripartite employment agreement reached in support of this transfer was a major accomplishment in that Nav Canada, Transport Canada and the bargaining agents worked together very successfully. We are pleased that the bargaining agents and the employees themselves continue to be strong supporters of Bill C-20.

All of the assets used by Transport Canada in the provision of air navigation services will form part of the transfer, including land, equipment and other items required to ensure its continued effective and safe operation.

The act grants certain powers to Nav Canada as well as imposes certain operating obligations on the corporation. For example, it obliges Nav Canada to provide public notice of any contemplated changes in services or facilities that are likely to affect a significant group of users in a material way. In addition, a process has also been established in the legislation to ensure public input to decisions by Nav Canada in respect of the introduction, increase, termination or even reduction of services and of course the closure of facilities.

The government must also monitor the performance of Nav Canada as a monopolist. There are many safeguards against

possible use of arbitrary power. These start with the nature of Nav Canada itself which, as a not for profit entity without share capital, does not have a financial incentive to abuse its monopoly position.

The act establishes an economic regulatory framework in respect of user charges based on requirements for public notice and consultation. A set of charging principles is established in the legislation and there is an opportunity for users to appeal new or revised charges.

The charging principles address issues such as transparency, safety, impact, equity and international obligations. The act also provides an opportunity for users to appeal new or revised charges to the National Transportation Agency. The legislation prohibits Nav Canada from generating revenues reasonably and prudently projected from exceeding Nav Canada's current and future financial requirements for the provision of civil air navigation services.

Through the board of directors and advisory committee, users of the system will now have more opportunity to determine their future in the way the corporation and the system will operate. For example, stakeholders in the industry will have meaningful input into the use of ANS revenues, setting of fees, long term expenditures and service standards.

The government also ensured that the special transportation needs of isolated communities would continue to be recognized in a commercial environment. This act preserves air navigation services to northern and remote communities, including a process which will involve provincial and territorial governments should possible service reductions be proposed by Nav Canada at any time in the future.

In summary, here are the highlights of Bill C-20, which will allow the air navigation systems transaction, one of the largest and most precedent setting commercialization initiatives which the federal government has undertaken to proceed for the benefit of all Canadians.

For taxpayers, it will make a $1.5 billion contribution to reducing the federal deficit.

For the industry, it will maintain safety while increasing the system's ability to respond to changing demands and new technologies.

For the users, it will provide more efficient and cost effective operations.

For the air navigation service employees, it offers the opportunity to continue to contribute in a new and challenging work environment.

For Nav Canada, it sets the stage for it to operate one of the best run and safest air navigation systems in the world.

Bill C-20 is yet another initiative by the government to ensure that the Canadian transportation industry meets the demands of our ever changing economy. This legislation, once passed, will be a milestone not only for Canadians but internationally, and something in which we should all take enormous pride.

Civil Air Navigation Services Commercialization ActGovernment Orders

4:30 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Kilger)

It is my duty, pursuant to Standing Order 38, to inform the House that the question to be raised tonight at the time of adjournment is as follows: the hon. member for Lévis-Quebec bridge.

Civil Air Navigation Services Commercialization ActGovernment Orders

4:30 p.m.

Bloc

Paul Crête Bloc Kamouraska—Rivière-Du-Loup, QC

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to have the opportunity to speak on this bill at the third reading stage.

I became a member of the Standing Committee on Transport when we were at the final stages of the bill. We looked at the bill as a whole, and the amendments moved. I could see that the committee members had put a lot of work into it, and that there was a desire to correct a situation that had existed in the past, namely the problem of controlling the costs of air navigation.

The Bloc Quebecois also saw, however, that the situation was a bit like a pendulum, having gone from one extreme to the other with no stop in the middle. The bill could, in our opinion, have turned into something worthwhile and acceptable. Its purpose was to create a not-for-profit organization in an attempt to involve representatives of the entire industry, with everyone having the opportunity to sit on the board. It seems, however, that the small carriers will not have a say, despite their expectations.

This is one of the negative aspects of the bill, and one which has not been corrected along the way since it was introduced. No amendment in this connection has been made, despite the numerous representations made about it.

Today, however, at the third reading stage, what I would like to tell the government is that, if it were to agree to modify the bill to give precedence to air safety instead of the financial stability of Nav Canada, this bill would have the potential of becoming an acceptable one, in our opinion.

That is what is missing from the bill at present, and our concerns have grown because of the government's refusal at other points, for example, to add a preamble to the bill which would satisfy the need for giving precedence to air safety. This is a very important aspect because of its considerable human impact. We have just had an example of this with the recent U.S. crash, with the loss of many lives, and all of the personal and economic aspects of it.

Canada has, in the past, acquired a reputation for air safety, since we have not had an undue number of accidents. From that point of view we have had a good reputation; our problem lay more, as I have said, with controlling costs.

By trying to settle the problem of controlling costs, we are leaving the door open to the creation of a new air navigation problem: safety. In its present form, the bill does not address that aspect satisfactorily.

This is why we want to ask the government once again to consider the question and, if possible, accept an amendment from us that would make the bill acceptable to the official opposition.

Why does so much importance need to be given to safety? Well, this is an area where mistakes are fatal. Newspapers regularly carry reports of events that have taken place. In this area, for both equipment and people, the most important thing in getting the job done is safety.

We were told in committee, particularly by the spokespersons for the Air Canada pilots' association, by those who came to talk about the use of French in the air and by representatives of the general population, the users of air services, that this was an important consideration and that the government's responsibility should be carried out by Transport Canada.

This distinction is not in the bill. Why is the government not agreeing to include this request on safety in Nav Canada's mandate? The question arises when we look at the make-up of the board of directors. All the representatives of the industry are there, people who are obviously in an industry aimed at making money. The major carriers, like Air Canada and Canadian International and others, are in the air transport business to make money, obviously, and this is perfectly normal.

These people are on the board of Nav Canada and will have to ensure the services they receive from Nav Canada are charged at an acceptable level and that they, after calculating their own costs, will be able to declare a profit.

So when they arrive on the board of directors, their first concern will be to look at the effect of the decisions on their own companies. As for public protection, as it appears in the legislation establishing Nav Canada and in the mandate defined there, we will see whether the members of the board of directors in fact do abide by acceptable standards of safety.

Except that the mandate establishes no such requirement. There is no provision for anyone in Canada to refer to, in the event of an accident or for prevention purposes, saying: "In a certain airport, in a certain situation, Nav Canada decided not to provide a certain sort of equipment or service, and we would like it to do so for safety reasons".

The legislation as it stands contains no provision for appeal or consultation and certainly no legal clout making such arguments possible. So, as far as safety is concerned, there is some anxiety.

The method of financing Nav Canada is also worrisome. Let us take a brief look at how it will work. There are some very large carriers who will bring in a significant amount, who will provide a lot of money to finance Nav Canada, because of the frequency of use of equipment and of Canadian air space, while use by others will be considerably less.

Accordingly, when the time comes for the board of directors to make budgetary choices, when decisions have to be made about what equipment to invest in, certain individuals will have a greater say than others. I am speaking of those who control air transportation.

What, however, will happen to small carriers, as well as people living in remote areas, for instance? I do not necessarily mean the Far North, which the bill covers quite adequately by making provision for special rules, but regional airports. I could mention the Mont-Joli airport, in my region, or the one in Sept-Îles, or any other regional airport in Canada. If Nav Canada decides not to add a particular piece of equipment to their airport so that a particular plane can land, that would have an important regional economic impact. This is a reality communities will have to live with. We have a very telling example, the situation now being experienced in the area of Montreal and Mirabel, with ADM.

You will recall that this was an organization created by the former Conservative government to manage Montreal's airports. We have here the same financial objective as Nav Canada's. There is a decision to turn the management of the airports over to the private sector, just as the question of air navigation services is being turned over to the private sector, through Nav Canada. In both cases, the organization created will have a phenomenal amount of leeway and will not necessarily have to be truly accountable for its actions.

In the case of ADM, we now see what this leads to. Without in any way saying whether the choice of Dorval or of Mirabel is right, what can be said with certainty is that the public is not now in a position to judge the best possible decision. They must pretty much rely on ADM, which is not accountable for its actions to either the Government of Quebec or the federal government.

Even if the federal government owns these airport facilities, even if there is a lease between the federal government and ADM for the management of the Dorval and Mirabel airports, the government has not left itself any position from which it could say to ADM that the decisions it takes will have a major impact, a direct economic impact on air navigation, as well as on the tourist industry, the industrial sector, and all sorts of other impacts. Again today, during question period, the federal government, through the responsible minister, could not tell us anything other than that ADM is autonomous and can do what it wants.

I give this example because, in the case of Nav Canada, it seems to me that there is a risk that we will find ourselves in exactly the same sort of situation in the years to come. There will be quite a heated battle in certain regions for safety equipment accommodating particular types of planes and people will practically be begging Nav Canada for this equipment.

No appeal mechanism is provided by which a community, citizens, organizations or users can be heard and can obtain rulings reflecting the economic impact of these decisions.

At the same time, I would also like to make a comparison with what happened with Canada Post Corporation. This is a Crown corporation with considerable leeway, which was given a mandate of becoming cost effective. Because this corporation was showing deficits, the only criterion was to require it to be cost effective. This led to a policy of brutally closing down post offices, with the determining factor being quite simply the age of the postmaster. It had nothing to do with the number of clients served.

It took a political decision, a moratorium by the present government to stop this operation. The same mistakes are being made, as though we were in some sort of neo-Liberal model, where, when we see the pendulum swinging back, we say: "Before, we interfered in everything and it was costing too much, because we were doing it badly. Now, we will not interfere in anything and we will give people free rein". But between these two extremes, a balance must be sought, and in the case at hand, it is the issue of safety.

This raises another problem as well, and that is the question of transparency. Even if Nav Canada makes the best decisions in the world, for them to be accepted by the regional communities involved, public debate must be possible. Certainly public debate brings about delays on occasion, but the time spent in public debate is often shorter and more profitable than that spent in legal wrangling.

We need only think of what is happening with the ADM, in the case of the Montreal airports, Dorval and Mirabel. Since we are not allowed access to all of the studies on this, we are now faced with citizens who want to institute legal proceedings, and unacceptable delays may result. The bill we have before us now will not solve this problem of transparency.

Let us just look at the question of the small carriers. In Canada, there are carriers that can be identified as major carriers with high volume and a heavy influence on air travel markets. There are,

however, also many small carriers. These are found just about everywhere in Canada.

There are, for example, tourist carriers which take southern hunters or biologists to the north. There are many of these in the west, and many also in northern Quebec. There are also small charter companies. These are not companies that do a lot of business, but they will be considerably hindered by the fee scales set by Nav Canada.

Setting fees in this way will not impact only on the economic survival of the small carriers. The rates set could well have only a minimal effect on the major carriers, but a considerable one on the smaller ones.

The way the board is set up, small carriers will not have enough representation to make themselves heard. I believe that Nav Canada could, in good faith, take decisions that are not intended to hurt the small carriers but will in fact do so. There will be a negative impact, and that is the first consequence of the fee scale.

There is another. Obviously, because there is more air traffic between major centres, the small ones, the small airports will find it harder to defend their arguments for obtaining relevant equipment.

As small carriers are the ones using small airports, a sort of vicious circle is created. We have people who are not represented on the board of directors-small carriers-and small airports with limited traffic, providing essential services to the smaller centres. In the end, this could even lead to lessening economic activity in certain regions. The effects of the choices made will be felt in two, five, ten or twenty years with the small carriers being shifted to the larger airports or simply eliminated. These are some of the effects of Bill C-20.

Despite the government's best intentions, despite the work in committee, the finishing touches are lacking. There is one element that was not given sufficient consideration. Accordingly, if there are no amendments, the official opposition will be unable to vote in favour of this bill, because some things need to be changed.

Let us consider for a few minutes the various decisions that will have to be made by Nav Canada and that may have negative effects because of this lack of concern for safety.

For example, Nav Canada could decide to set up new navigational equipment in an airport. As the bill now stands, the cost of the aircraft will be reviewed, as well as all the charges for the whole country, but not the issue of whether this equipment is really needed in this or that airport to ensure adequate safety. There will be no advisory committee to warn us of an inadequate level of safety in a given sector.

This is not an area in which things can be fixed afterwards. In air navigation services, any mistake that causes the death of people or that has a major economic impact is very harmful to all of society. You may appoint as many inquiries as you like, but all it takes is one or two major accidents to have bitter regrets about not making safety a top priority right from the start.

Another decision that can be made by Nav Canada is to redistribute the equipment. For example, if air traffic in eastern Quebec was down, it could be decided that the facilities in Mont-Joli are no longer be needed and some of the equipment could be transferred to the national capital region, for instance. There is no control, no requirement to inform the regions concerned that part of their equipment will be transferred to another airport or to tell them about the possible consequences. This bill does not provide any mechanism for appealing decisions or consulting the communities affected.

Several amendments to that effect were put forward during consideration of the bill at report stage. Those amendments were rejected.

Now that we are at third reading, we would like the government to at least pay attention and realize that making safety a priority would have a direct impact on such decisions. Through this bill, the government could prompt Nav Canada to take into consideration the security of any given airport when moving equipment. We do not feel this was emphasized enough in the bill.

Generally speaking, this bill will no doubt make the whole cost control issue easier. I hope we will see a marked improvement. At the same time, it seems to us that it has deficiencies in terms of safety, by not making safety the first consideration. This is something we feel the government should reconsider before giving this bill the force of law.

In the coming years, we will live through the situation I described earlier and already experienced by other organizations, where the federal government has relinquished so much responsibility that it does not even have the nub to pull the door shut with. One, two or three years from now, it will not be able to tell Nav Canada that its decisions do not meet an acceptable minimum level of safety.

It is all interconnected. It does not allow citizens or users to request information about Nav Canada under the federal government's Access to Information Act because it has been decided that this act would not apply to this particular organization.

All the more proof that this bill is only about economic and cost effectiveness considerations. But what we are dealing with is not a cannery or some private sector enterprise where safety is not that important. This is an area where the federal government must always have some responsibility over safety, air safety and related regulations. It must give the organization it is establishing and

which will be in operation for many years to come the mandate to give top priority to safety. The bill does not contain anything to this effect.

That is why I move the following amendment:

That the motion be amended by deleting all the words after the word "That" and substituting the following:

"this House declines to give third reading to Bill C-20, an act respecting the commercialization of civil air navigation services, because the bill does not give the safety of passengers, airline personnel and the public priority over all other considerations in business decisions made by Nav Canada."

I move this amendment, which I have signed, seconded by the hon. member for Blainville-Deux-Montagnes, hoping that the House will debate it and see that it can help ensure that the final product meets all public requirements in that respect, so that the bill is acceptable to all members of this House.

Civil Air Navigation Services Commercialization ActGovernment Orders

4:55 p.m.

Reform

Jim Gouk Reform Kootenay West—Revelstoke, BC

Mr. Speaker, I am in favour of this bill. I think it is the best of all possible outcomes. That is not to say there are not some weaknesses and flaws in it. In honesty, what bill does not have something in it that could be improved?

I begin by making a few comments on the speeches by the Bloc members. I am sure these things were said with great sincerity. I noticed they member focused on various parts of Quebec. That is not unreasonable for a single province or regional party to do.

However, because I have a much broader spectrum, being the national transport critic, I have looked at the potential problems and concerns of the bill from a more national perspective.

Any time a change or something new is introduced it is only natural that it would make some people who are affected by it nervous. The member for the Bloc talked about no representation for airlines, even small airlines. He was speaking from Quebec's perspective, as he should.

Mr. Jenner is the head of a large airline organization in Quebec, representing mostly small airlines, the very people the member was concerned about. I am sure the member knows Mr. Jenner was offered a seat on the board of directors of Nav Canada and turned it down. Also, the head of the Canadian Owners and Pilots Association, small aircraft operators, was offered a seat on the board of directors of Nav Canada and turned it down.

I would not want him to leave the impression that Nav Canada is trying to bully these small companies and have a little clique of selected people. That is not the case.

The member also mentioned there would be no public consultation if Nav Canada decided it wanted to take a particular piece of equipment out of an airport and move it elsewhere. I do not know of any procedure that requires Transport Canada to have public consultation if it wishes to move a particular piece of equipment from one airport to another.

I have seen some of the old equipment that Transport Canada operated a decade or two ago. If there were public consultation to finally move this rather decrepit equipment it would be cause for celebration and rejoicing.

When the bill was first introduced there were a number of possible ways of divesting Transport Canada of its air navigation system. A variety of things were looked at, including profit companies, a mixture of private sector businesses working together. Some sounded a little wild but were considered because, wild or not, they should at least be looked at because maybe there was a portion merit.

However it was very quickly narrowed down to just two particular aspects, one being a crown corporation and the other being the not for profit corporation which is what we have ended up with. As near as I can see, the government to its credit did not appear to be pushing any one scenario. The same thing cannot be said for the bureaucrats who were falling all over themselves trying to make sure it was a crown corporation while they were busy jockeying for position to ensure they got all the key positions in this new crown entity.

Fortunately, industry got its act together and the users and the various employee groups got together. They quickly recognized what was happening and that what was good for industry and the travelling public was the not for profit concept. They did an excellent job of not saying one at a time: "I want it and I can work with him". Rather they said: "We the industry, we the users, we the operators, we the employee groups, we the bargaining agents are all sitting together and we have agreed how to do this jointly". Thus was born Nav Canada. It was a very good collaboration by industry. People put together the best possible outcome for the divestment of the air navigation system.

The price was mentioned by the parliamentary secretary to the minister. Nav Canada was ripped off. I must make that comment because Nav Canada will not make it. Nav Canada negotiated with a gun at its head. They were the only obvious buyers and it was in their own best interests to ensure that they were the ones to take over this operation. They did not want somebody from outside with no expertise, with no concern about the users, the bargaining agents and all the internal people that make up Nav Canada to come in and take over. And they certainly did not want it to remain with the government because it was hardly an efficient or effective system.

They were the only buyers but they were also in need of getting the system and it had to come from the government. Therefore they had to pay whatever the government asked. I think they paid too much, in part to bail the government out of a problem contract it got into and perhaps also to pay off some other bad investments. One example is the microwave landing system. It was not that this concept was bad but government inertia makes it difficult to let go

of something when its time has passed. The government continued with the MLS long after it should have been abandoned, when other industrialized countries had dropped it.

We heard concerns and fears from some of the northern operators, even some remote regional operators, as the Bloc mentioned. I am a commercial pilot and I was an air traffic controller for 22 years. I have a lot of background in the specific issues people were concerned about. I have looked closely at what this bill contains and the risks. It is not a perfect bill, but what bill is? I am satisfied it contains the necessary protections and has the right intent with Nav Canada moving forward.

It is only natural that some operators should have some fears. That is to be expected. If there is any fault here it is that the government and perhaps even the committee, of which I am a member, did not do a good enough job of selling the idea and convincing the people that they were protected.

There is one area which came to the fore and troubled me a bit: general aviation and recreational aircraft fees. It is only natural for people to object to fees when they have been getting something essentially for free and which will now have a cost. Instead of a regular user fee for this category of aircraft there has been talk about a general flat annual fee. The amount that has been discussed is in the range of $500 but there is nothing in the bill. It is a Nav Canada charge.

I have heard a lot of objections from different operators and owners of aircraft along with their representatives such as the Canadian Owners and Pilots Association. They proposed an alternative, not that they do not want to pay and I am sure they do not want to pay. Who does?

However, it is reasonable that a system is there. They will have to call flight service to get weather briefings and flight information and to file flight plans. Maybe they are not flying on instruments but many people who have the equipment-and many do-still tune in and use the airway as a navigation aid for themselves. They talk to air traffic control whenever they go into a controlled airport. Some of them fly on instruments and make use of the area control centres. It is not unreasonable that they pay something for the service.

One of the suggestions they brought forward was the idea of paying for the service through an excise gas tax. I hasten to point out that they pay a significant gas tax already. It could be some portion of the amount that is already paid dedicated to go to Nav Canada instead of the fee, or even possibly a bit of that combined with a very nominal, and I stress very nominal, increase in the gasoline component of the aviation fuel tax. A pilot who flies 50 hours a year, which many private aircraft owners do, would pay based on his 50 hours. An operator or an owner who flies 500 hours would pay that much more in a similar type of aircraft because he potentially is making 10 times the use of the service.

I am not proposing that at this time. However this is enabling legislation, and is not a finely detailed, carved in stone type of legislation. I will continue to look at that proposal. I will continue to consult with the various groups and individuals this is going to impact on to see if that would have real favour. I will confirm with Nav Canada that it is something it would look on favourably if that were to be the type of system that was put in.

I move next to labour disputes. This is something that has not been overlooked by the committee. I brought it up. Again, it was something that came up. It is a very overwhelming issue. The bill moved through far too quickly. It would be a long delay to try to address this issue and would hold up a bill that should move ahead.

A lot of the bargaining agents are critical of the operation of the entire air transport system of this country, the total transportation system. The work of the air traffic controllers, flight service people, the licensing people has to continue. When it stops, the entire system stops. The government has introduced something and it is jury-rigged and a poor way of doing it.

I am not talking about this government, I might add, before I get its dander up for no reason. I do it often enough for reason so I certainly do not want to do it for no reason. I hear kind comments coming from the hon. member for Kingston and the Islands. Of course, those are the only comments I get from him.

What happened is a right to strike was given. I will use the air traffic controllers as an example. They are not the only group, but they are the ones I am most familiar with.

In the late 1960s they got the right to strike. In a contract dispute in the early 1970s when a settlement could not be reached between the Air Traffic Controllers Association and Treasury Board, the air traffic control system was shut down. The controllers went on strike and air transportation in this country stopped. After a week and a half in the dead of winter, the government legislated the controllers back to work. Mandatory arbitration was the settlement dispute.

Some time later, a contract dispute came up again. Once again it looked as if we were headed toward a strike. This time the government in advance of a strike taking place legislated the controllers so that they could not go out on strike and legislated the

settlement. In other words, it completely revoked not only their right to strike but even their right to bargain.

During the time when the strikes took place, the controllers had agreed and worked with the government. There would be a number of designated employees who would go in to ensure that safety was still maintained.

If there was an aircraft still up and in distress the controllers would handle it. If there was a medical emergency, the controllers would handle it. They would handle flights that reprovisioned remote communities in the north and air defence flights. All these types of things were still handled. It amounted to about 15 per cent of the control staff. The controllers did this willingly and the system was fine.

Sometime after the second piece of legislation, the government came out with a new list of designated employees. It pertained to everybody who controls aircraft. It came out with a list of designated duties which contained everything the controllers did. This was appealed and taken to court all the way to the top and the government prevailed.

From that day forward and for approximately the past 20 years air traffic controllers have had the right to go on strike, but when they go on strike every one of them has to report to work and they have to do all the duties they normally do. No other dispute settlement was put in place. The only dispute settlement is to strike when in fact they cannot strike. It has been a very unsatisfactory system for the past 20 years.

Now controllers and other bargaining agents in similar situations are once again getting back the right to strike. They are no longer covered by this legislation because they are no longer in the public service. They are now private sector employees covered by the Canada Labour Code.

I say in all sincerity that air traffic controllers are very conscientious and sincere people. They are interested in flight safety and in doing a good job. In fact, if controllers as a whole did not do a little more than the system even expects them to do or expects them to be able to do, the system probably would not work very well at all. They are very conscientious people but they are also people who have had a bad deal for 20 years. If there ever was a problem in negotiations between any of these bargaining agents and the new Nav Canada employer, we would have a major problem in this country.

The government had to legislate back to work the dock workers in Vancouver. I agreed in doing that. It causes severe economic problems in this country when the port of Vancouver goes down. The government legislated back to work the national rail system when it went on strike and I supported that as well. I believe it had to be done. But those two things pale in comparison to the economic impact of the air transport system of this country being shut down.

I say to the government that it should have a heads up on this problem. I want to make sure it understands that the problem exists, that we rely certainly on good faith bargaining between the various bargaining agents and Nav Canada, but at the same time the government should be aware that this potential problem is there. It may be necessary at some point in time for the government to do something about it and it should start putting some thought into it.

I will now move on to committee practices particularly with respect to this bill. I begin with the Canadian Transportation Act, specifically section 27.2.

When legislation starts in the House and goes to committee, I have to assume it goes to committee for a reason and not just because a piece of paper says that is the procedure. There has to be a reason for it to go to committee. I am told by the government that legislation goes to committee so we can discuss it openly, so we can hear witnesses, hear what problems might exist with the legislation, and address the concerns the majority of witnesses bring forward and find ways to deal with these problems.

There were many witnesses on that piece of legislation. Most of the people who came forward said: "Get rid of 27.2. It is a disaster for us". They quoted chapter and verse where all the problems were. On the other side were representatives of the National Transportation Agency, the government body. I asked them about section 27.2, which started as a significant prejudice and later became substantial commercial harm. What did it mean? They gave us a spectrum. Maybe it was a small loss or profit or, to the other extreme, maybe bankruptcy and anything in between. Lawyers will argue this for ages and precedents will eventually be set.

The government ignored that completely. It refused to do anything significant about section 27.2 or, more appropriately, remove it. Why were there all these hearings? Why was the bill sent to committee if the government was going to ignore what the public said? It then came back to this House.

A new minister is now responsible for this bill. A lot of the shippers began last minute consultations because there was a new minister and a new chair of the committee. They said they were really concerned about section 27.2. The minister said that he was also concerned, that he had just read it and had a lot of concerns about it. He asked for some time to look at it because he felt something would have to be done about it. This was nothing more than a ruse.

I offered the minister every opportunity to do something about section 27.2 without involving politics. I told him that if he wanted some co-operation to take it back to committee and do it in an all-party, relatively non-partisan way, no feet to the coals and no saying "I told you so, I'm right you're wrong". I told him it should be done because it was the right thing to do and that he had my total co-operation.

As soon as it was time for the vote they said they did not want to do anything. It passed and section 27.2 is still in the bill.

We then moved to another transport area involving the Department of Fisheries and Oceans or, more appropriately I guess, the department of oceans because in order to have a department of fisheries there has to be fish. The user pay concept is commencing, the coast guard recovery fees.

I attended the committee meetings of that department and listened to the witnesses talking about user pay. They recognized that they needed to pay and they were willing to pay. However, they thought the government was being a bit premature. There had been no cost rationalization of the coast guard and no impact study to see how this was going to affect them and the whole marine shipping strategy.

The minister was sure that the fees were going to have an impact and maybe cause some traffic to be diverted to the United States, but he felt that after the bill was implemented an impact study would be done to see how much damage it had caused. That is a pretty bizarre way of doing it. Again, it ignores everything that happened in the committee.

We now get to Bill C-20. At committee the government's privacy commissioner told us that he had a serious concern about the bill. At the present time the Privacy Act covers all the activities of Transport Canada in the operation of the air navigation system and when it is transferred to Nav Canada, a private corporation, that will not be the case.

There is also employee privacy which may possibly be dealt with in other ways. Almost everybody who takes to the air, except for some local flights, and who has to file a flight plan with particular information, is covered by the Privacy Act now. However, they will not be covered under Nav Canada as it is a private corporation.

The privacy commissioner said that it would not cost a dime and that the bill should include that the Privacy Act continue to apply to Nav Canada as if it were a crown corporation. This is the exact same wording that the parliamentary secretary bragged about tonight for the official languages. It was stated that Nav Canada, as a private company, still has to operate for the purposes of the Official Languages Act as if it were still a crown corporation.

I put in an amendment stating exactly that. I just extended what it said for the Official Languages Act. I wanted NavCan to be covered under the Privacy Act is if it were still a crown corporation. It passed. That is what a committee is supposed to do. It is supposed to consider these matters, listen to the witnesses and vote. Matters that are defeated are defeated and the matters that are passed are passed. My amendment passed and became part of the bill.

Democracy does not live well in committees. Certain parts of the committee, not sitting on this side of the House, did not like that. Democracy be damned, so they waited until the bill came to the House and put forward a motion to remove the amendment that the committee passed in response to the witnesses that came forward. That is not a very good system. It does not speak well of what the government does in committees.

I would like to turn now to what the Bloc said it its amendment. The amendment is that the bill not be read the third time because the air navigation system will not be safe with Nav Canada.

I worked in the navigation system for 22 years. For all those years we wanted to get out of government control because it would be far more efficient and more technologically advanced. We could respond quicker to changing needs through the use of technology and changing conditions.

Contrary to what the Bloc says, I believe that the system will be at least as safe as it is now. I do not wish to suggest for a moment that it is not a safe system now. However, it is not in any kind of danger with regard to safety whatsoever. It will be a much more efficient and safe system once Nav Canada takes over. Therefore I will not be supporting the Bloc motion.

It will also enhance the air industry's viability. The air transport industry in this country is in trouble. Everyone knows about the clash between Air Canada and Canadian Airlines and how both of them are writing a lot of red ink. Perhaps that is why the government relates so well to them with its red ink book. They are in trouble. With open skies they get a lot of pressure from American competitors. They need to find ways to operate more efficiently.

If Nav Canada can operate the system, which is made up of users and operators, and operate it more effectively and more efficiently than the government does, then that is going to save money for all the people involved in the industry and it will enhance that industry's viability.

It will also give enhanced service and value to the travelling public. If NavCan can keep its costs down, better compete against foreign competitors, offer better fees and better opportunities to travellers and travel to more places, the travelling public has to benefit.

Finally, it is good for the general public. The government has been running this system for years at a significant loss. Most recently with some new initiatives added toward the end of the system being under government control, the government was

losing something in the range of $200 million a year. This adds to the deficit and all the associated costs that go with that.

This is a good bill. There are some bumps in the road which the government could have handled a little better. If I had been in the government's place handling it, some things could have been done better. We have to move ahead. We have to recognize that the government needs to get out of business. The government's sole responsibility is regulation. It has retained all the regulatory controls. It will still monitor safety. It will still set standards. It will still ensure that those standards are kept up.

The government has brought forward several bills in the transportation sector. With one exception, the Pearson airport, they have been relatively good bills. It is only the implementation that has suffered.

I hope the government will continue to learn. I hope it will continue to listen, as the member for Kingston and the Islands is mostly doing, which is rather gratifying. When the government does I will be pleased to support it.

Civil Air Navigation Services Commercialization ActGovernment Orders

5:20 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Kilger)

We will now move to the next stage of debate where members will be able to speak for 20 minutes subject to 10 minutes of questions or comments.

Civil Air Navigation Services Commercialization ActGovernment Orders

5:20 p.m.

Bloc

Paul Mercier Bloc Blainville—Deux-Montagnes, QC

Mr. Speaker, my speech will be quite similar to the one I made at second reading, since the bill before us is more or less the same, considering that all our amendments were defeated.

Again, we agree with the principle of privatization. However, we will oppose the bill because the government did not take into account certain principles which we felt were important and rejected our amendments.

One of these amendments had miraculously been accepted by the Standing Committee on Transport and we thought it would go through. It was an important amendment, since it provided that Nav Canada should, like the government did before, agree to comply with the Privacy Act.

The amendment had been adopted by the committee, but the government tabled another amendment to counteract ours. Therefore, the minister rejected the recommendation of the transport committee, even though his party has a majority in that committee.

Even so, we submitted other amendments that were all defeated. Let me quickly explain again what the issue was, to show the importance of the principle involved, and to explain why, in spite of our agreement in principle regarding privatization, we will have no choice but to vote against the bill.

First, there is the issue of privacy which we felt very important and regarding which our amendment was rejected. We also asked that further information be provided regarding the media and other means of communications that Nav Canada would use to inform the public about its intention to change, restrict or cancel its services, so that interested parties can react.

We felt it was important to specify which media should be used and how widespread the information should be, to ensure that everyone would be well informed. It would have been only natural to support this principle, but such was not the case. We also felt it was improper to have private users of Nav Canada's services pay for national defence, which is exempt from having to pay the fees involved. This situation is not reasonable. We tabled an amendment, but it was rejected.

More importantly, we wanted to emphasize the spirit of this legislation in a preamble. This is a private organization providing a public service, and we wanted the preamble to say that service to the public should always take precedence over financial interests. Even this principle, which would have been stated in the bill to ensure better service to the public, was rejected.

My colleague, the member for Kamouraska-Rivière-du-Loup, drew a parallel between Nav Canada and ADM. We did not get together on this, but I am going to do the same thing, because the similarities and analogies are striking. ADM and Nav Canada were created by the government, more specifically the Minister of Transport. They are private organizations, both providing public services. What is now happening with ADM does not augur well for what may happen with Nav Canada.

I remind members that ADM recently took a decision, the principle of which I will not comment on here, but I protest against the fact that ADM, because of the status the government has given it, has no obligation to release to the public the information on which it based its decision.

Just a while ago, in response to a question, the minister said: "Yes, but there is SOPRAM". SOPRAM has 21 members. Of these, seven are on the board of directors that took the decision. Even this organization, which is, in short, the only avenue by which the public may examine ADM's decisions, even the members of this organization are not entitled to take out the studies that ADM says it used in reaching its decision. They must consult them on the premises. So much for the public's right to information.

So the parallel is obvious. The ability to make decisions in both these organizations is enormous, and the obligation to be accountable to the public, and to explain those decisions, is nil. It is therefore fairly easy to predict what might happen with Nav Canada. Just think about what has just happened with ADM. I would imagine that Nav Canada, with the enormous powers it

possesses, will make the decision to do away with this service or that service, when it does not seem sufficiently profitable.

As the law requires, it will publish its intention to do so in certain newspapers of its own choosing, according to criteria that are far too broad. Then, if there is no reaction, or even if there is one, since what is required is only to give notice, the situation will be judged and Nav Canada will take the decision it wanted in the first place, making its intentions as little known as possible and possibly without releasing the studies and other documents on which the decision was based.

In both cases, then, we are dealing with organizations that do not provide the public with the services it would have received when the government was providing them. Privatization, in one case as much as the other, has the effect of cutting back on services to the user, a lesser view of what service is, in one case as much as the other. That is what we cannot accept. Needless to say, I shall be supporting my colleague's amendment.

That, then, is what I had to say. Unfortunately, we cannot support this bill because it contains too many serious shortcomings to be acceptable.

Civil Air Navigation Services Commercialization ActGovernment Orders

5:30 p.m.

Bloc

Stéphan Tremblay Bloc Lac-Saint-Jean, QC

Mr. Speaker, I rise in the debate on this bill because it concerns the representation of small carriers, the subject I have given greatest consideration to. We were told that the small carriers were represented.

I have here a series of facts. I have letters here. Those who are not familiar with the bill must understand that the government said it was going to privatize air services. No problem so far. For those who are not really familiar with air services, here is what that means. When a plane takes off from an airport, it must communicate with a control tower. Then there are the instrument flight rules and the pilot is in contact with other controllers whose job it is to direct aircraft according to the various weather conditions.

The government decides to privatize these services. So far so good. With the state of public finances at the moment, there is reason to think this is very appropriate. Then the government said it would appoint a competent board. Given that the government does not necessarily know everything in this area, it appointed a board to look after privatizing services and then set the charges for air services to users. When the time came to decide who would sit on the board of Nav Canada, discussions were held. My remarks will concern the persons on this board.

The people deciding the type of charges are probably experts in the area of aviation. The real problem is that, if these experts-as I said-are major carriers, the charges will probably favour major carriers over small ones. This is my fear.

Coming from a remote region, I can confirm that small carriers in such regions encounter major difficulties. Travel by air is important if you want to go from the Lac-Saint-Jean region to Montreal. Air transportation is vital for business and economic development in remote areas; it also creates jobs. Given the need to provide a high level of service despite the fairly low number of passengers, costs are prohibitive. Ask most of the people in my riding and in all the regions from Vancouver to Newfoundland and they will tell you that plane tickets are very expensive.

This was the subject of a study. Every time the cost of tickets goes up by $1, there is a corresponding $1 drop in annual sales for the airline. Other modes of transportation are slower, but those who cannot afford to fly take the bus or the train even if it takes longer. But in business, time is important, time is money.

One chamber of commerce-I think it is in Matane but I am not sure-asked the Quebec government whether it could give remote areas a subsidy allowing them to reduce their costs. As I was saying, air service is a key factor of economic development.

This brings me to the squabble that surrounded the creation of the Nav Canada committee. As you know, sometimes it does not take much to provoke an outcry, but there may be cases in which such an outcry is justified. There are cases in which questions should be raised, but the issues are too complicated. That is one of the problems in this case; what happened is extremely complicated. People find it quite confusing.

I will try to explain the situation as best I can. The people in the Quebec air transport industry got together. As you know, I worked in that sector for three years so I am quite familiar with the difficulties faced by small airlines. Quebec set up an association of small airlines called AQTA or Association québécoise des transporteurs aériens.

We would have liked AQTA to sit on this committee for two reasons. First of all, because AQTA represents mostly small airlines and, second, because it represents the French fact in Quebec and Canada and also because it represents Quebec. I think it would have been important. There was a debate. They told us they invited us but we did not come.

I will quote from a few articles, including a letter of opinion published in Le Soleil . This letter, from Mr. Jenner of the Association québécoise des transporteurs aériens or AQTA, read as follows: ``The privatization of Canadian air navigation services is turning sour. The Air Transport Association of Canada or ATAC has taken control of the new corporation''.

It is important to understand that the current president of Nav Canada is also the president of ATAC. The acronyms are confusing,

but the thing to remember is that ATAC stands for the Air Transport Association of Canada.

So this association is bragging, saying: "Look, do not say that small carriers are not represented. Not only does ATAC have a representative on Nav Canada's committee, but he is the chairman". The problem is, and I will come back on this later on, that ATAC and the AQTA are quite different in terms of representation.

The article reads on: "Ottawa has set out to privatize the entire Canadian air navigation system, which employs nearly 7,000 Canadians. A non-profit organization called Nav Canada has been created to eventually take over the administration of this operation on behalf of the industry. When the users committee responsible for incorporating the new company was formed, AQTA stepped aside to let the president of ATAC represent all users. This was too good to be true. As soon as the incorporation committee submitted the first draft of the letters patent, the fighting started", Mr. Jenner told the members of his association, who were gathered in Quebec City yesterday for their 20th annual congress.

The article reads on: "ATAC's president was holding the pen on our behalf but the fact of the matter is that he just wrote whatever he wanted to. He has betrayed us", Mr. Jenner told Le Soleil , adding: ``Consequently, regional carriers are complaining about being completely excluded from the decision making process. Thus, any recommendation they may have made concerning the selection of board members came to naught. The president of AQTA had asked that Nav Canada's statutes and letters patent be bilingual, so as to recognize both official languages as equal, arguing that this was the practice in all legislation in Quebec and Canada. It was requested that the mission statement include a commitment to promote the use of the French language in air operations. The committee came back a week later, having settled the language issue. Only the company's name and corporate logo are bilingual''.

So much for Canada being this great bilingual country. But this is another story, that I may get to debate in my future career.

According to Mr. Jenner, "such an attitude jeopardizes the headway made over the past 20 years in the fight for the use of the French language in the air transportation industry. What kind of quality of life and quality of service can we expect from Nav Canada's French speaking employees if management has a total aversion to our language?"

Sure, it is a bilingual service, except that only the logo is. But that is another issue.

Brian Jenner is concerned that small carriers are not represented on Nav Canada's board, particularly since the decisions that will be made will directly impact on the already exorbitant transportation costs in the regions.

The article goes on: "The costs of privatization are going up. Originally, there was talk of selling the service for an amount somewhere between $800 million and $1.3 billion. Now, the figure mentioned is $1.7 billion, possibly more. The budget of the whole operation was also scaled up, as well as the anticipated deficit. In the end, the expected savings will give way to increased operating costs".

According to Mr. Jenner, "if regional airports are asked to be financially self-sufficient, it could really hurt air transport outside large centres. It is obvious that the Sept-Îles airport cannot self-finance itself; however, closing its control tower is not an obvious solution. There is a limit to the ability of small and medium size businesses to pay".

One problem is that if authorities find out that little use is made of a control tower in Sept-Îles or in northern Saskatchewan-because I am not merely talking about the interests of Quebecers but those of all small carriers in every remote area-if they find out you are not using your on-board equipment-I will spare hon. members the aviation jargon-they will decide to close it down because of the high costs involved. This is what privatization is about. If you want to keep your services you have to pay. How do you expect a small carrier to do that?

This was a letter published in Le Soleil , but I have another article, this one from the magazine Circul-Air , which is a Quebec publication on air transportation-

Civil Air Navigation Services Commercialization ActGovernment Orders

5:40 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Kilger)

Order, please. I would like to take this opportunity to remind the member for Lac-Saint-Jean that members may not use catalogues or other props. I would ask the member, if he wishes to quote from texts, to do so without a lot of fanfare, if I may put it that way.

Civil Air Navigation Services Commercialization ActGovernment Orders

5:40 p.m.

Bloc

Stéphan Tremblay Bloc Lac-Saint-Jean, QC

My apologies, Mr. Speaker. I will see that it does not happen again.

In the editorial in Circul-Air , Édith Fournier, the general manager of Air Satellite and president of the council of the Association québécoise des transporteurs aériens, or AQTA, said the following: ``In the course of the negotiations leading up to the privatization of air navigation services, we have heard some pretty strong language. John Crichton, the president of ATAC, the Air Transport Association of Canada-which I mentioned earlier-on the op-ed page of the January 4, 1996 issue of Le Soleil , took the contempt of regional bodies to new heights''.

First of all, Mr. Crichton, from his lofty new perch as president of Nav Canada, took it upon himself to cast doubt on the accuracy of remarks made by Mr. Jenner, the president and CEO of AQTA at the association's 20th annual conference. In his article in Le Soleil , he said: ``Let us be very clear: the bitter words of Mr. Jenner concerning the privatization of air navigation services say it all. Furthermore, they are an accurate reflection of the opinion of AQTA, which feels that ATAC stole control of Nav Canada away from small and medium size businesses in the air transportation sector.''

As for Mr. Crichton's remarks about breaking solidarity, of greater importance to members of AQTA, there is a preoccupation with the almighty buck, a value completely foreign to AQTA. No one member is more important than another in our association. I will explain. Furthermore, it is because of scrupulous respect for this principle that AQTA rallied over 50 per cent of all Quebec air carriers, an unheard of level of support. ATAC cannot teach us anything about representativity, then, with its meagre 10 per cent of Canadian air carriers.

And here is where the problem lies. ATQA has more than 50 per cent of all carriers, whereas ATAC, which boasts that it is representative of all carriers, in fact represents only 10 per cent of them. They say ATAC is far larger. When one has on one's board members such as Air Canada and Canadian, which generate big bucks, one is capable of financing associations such as ATAC. The little guys are not necessary.

That is not the case with AQTA. In AQTA, whether you are a big or a small carrier, it is not the amount of your dues that counts. What counts is that you will be defended, and your membership is wanted.

Still quoting Mr. Chrichton, it appears that Mr. Jenner was the only one opposed to ATAC's highjacking of Nav Canada. In reality, there was generalized opposition by the commercial airline associations, so much so that they formed the council of air carrier associations, or CATA, another four letter acronym to add to the confusion. There were some air carriers in Canada who did not agree and who formed an association called the council of air carrier associations to defend themselves against the privatization which had been decided upon with the greatest of insensitivity to the opinion of small and medium size businesses.

Through AQTA and other regional associations, the majority of small and medium size businesses chose to be represented by this CATA. Let there be no confusion. Democracy and fairness require that choice to be respected and not denigrated. Mr. Chrichton still has a long way to go in that respect.

So that is about where the situation stands. I would have liked to talk of other things, including the letter from ATAC to Mr. Jenner inviting him to sit on the Nav Canada committee. I also have a letter from the AQTA, from Édith Fournier, the editorialist I have just referred to, expressing great pleasure, saying: "Yes, Mr. Jenner is in agreement, despite our not always agreeing on the

principle of Nav Canada, but since there was no other choice left, yes, we will get involved in the Nav Canada committee". A letter of acceptance.

I also have a third letter from ATAC, where the Nav Canada representative writes: "unfortunately, your candidature could not be accepted. Thank you for your offer, but unfortunately we cannot take you". And that is the end of that.

Civil Air Navigation Services Commercialization ActGovernment Orders

5:45 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Kilger)

I apologize for interrupting the hon. member. He can go on when the subject comes back to the House. If he wishes to complete his remarks, he will have two or three minutes at most. This is at his discretion.

In the meantime, it being 5.49 p.m., the House will now proceed to the consideration of Private Members' Business as listed on today's Order Paper.

Income Tax ActPrivate Members' Business

5:45 p.m.

Liberal

Paul Szabo Liberal Mississauga South, ON

moved:

That, in the opinion of this House, the government should consider amending the Income Tax Act to provide a caregiver tax credit for those who provide care in the home for preschool children, the disabled, the chronically ill or the aged.

Mr. Speaker, over the past two years I have presented a petition to the House of Commons which basically states that managing the family home and caring for preschool children is an honourable profession which has not been recognized for its value to our society. The petition also states the Income Tax Act discriminates against families that choose to provide care in the home to preschool children, the chronically ill, the disabled or the aged. The petition therefore calls on Parliament pursue tax initiatives which would do just that.

Motion No. 30 is a votable motion of the House of Commons which asks the House of Commons and the government to consider the advisability of this motion and to provide a caregiver tax credit to those who choose to provide care in the home to preschool children, the chronically ill, the disabled or the aged.

I will give a bit of background. Last weekend I had the opportunity of attending a wedding of my cousin. As they exchanged vows I began to consider what family really meant to me.

This is a young couple starting their lives together. I wondered when they exchanged their vows did they automatically become a family. I looked around the church and I found there were many children there and I realized even more that family means children.

As I looked at my family members and relatives I saw an aunt whose husband had been disabled, chronically ill, and she had to leave her work to care for him. Tragically he passed away.

I saw a sister who is married but who decided not to have children. I saw my brother who has daughters, but both he and his wife decided to continue their careers because a parent lived next door to them who could care for their daughters during their formative years.

I saw my grandmother who is now 95 years old, who after my grandfather passed away had to leave her home because she was no longer able to care for it. Then she stayed with my mother. After some time as she needed more and more care it was evident she needed institutionalized care. I also saw a cousin who presently lives common law and who has no children.

Then I looked at my own family. My dear wife and I will celebrate our 25th wedding anniversary this year. We have three lovely children. My wife took 13 years off from her career to help raise those children to be fine young people.

The issue surrounding Motion No. 30 is family responsibilities. They are lifelong responsibilities, from cradle to grave. They reflect family values and social norms and values and choices related to children and other family members who may be chronically ill, aged or disabled

I quote Dr. Benjamin Spock: "Children are made to love. Parents love children because they remember being loved so much by their own parents. Despite all the hard work, taking care of children and seeing them grow up to develop to be fine young people gives most parents their greatest satisfaction in life. To reflect on children we se that this is creation, this is our visible immortality".

Dr. Penelope Leach is the author of Children First , a wonderful book which states that if couples are contemplating having children, one thing they must understand is they must be prepared to put the interests of their child ahead of their own. This is very difficult and in many cases not possible in today's society.

What is the current situation in Canada with regard to families and children? I come across many cases in which people have said: "Both of us are working. We have our children in child care spaces but after child care expenses, after income taxes, after the cost of employment, my net take home pay is so small I really do not know why we are doing this".

We have a situation now in which the drop-out rate in high school is around 32 per cent. We have growing concern about young offenders and crime in general. We have concern about the literacy rate in Canada, which is presently at about the grade six level.

In 1968, 68 per cent of families with preschool children had one parent staying in the home and caring for those children. Twenty-five years later in 1993 that reduced to only 12 per cent.

We have social agencies everywhere for behavioural, learning and social skills. Schools even have full time psychologists now. Families are having increasing difficulty parenting their children.

The Standing Committee on Health is presently studying preventive strategies for the good health of children. We heard a number of witnesses. I refer to a couple of the points raised.

There was the point that quality day care cannot be provided or delivered without government subsidy, the reason being the salaries paid to qualified caregivers averages somewhere around only $21,000. That was presented to us by Martha Friendly of the U of T child resource centre. She confirmed that the demand for subsidized child care is much greater than the availability.

Families are different. Choice and options are essential and desirable. Dr. Fraser Mustard of the Canadian Institute for Advanced Research also came before the committee. He told us about research that clearly shows there are factors occurring during the first three years of life that have a significant impact on the likelihood of positive outcomes of children, cognitive skills, social skills, behavioural skills, coping skills, mental and physical health.

We also had Dr. Marc Genuis of the National Foundation for Family Research and Education. He told us about a meta-analysis, a analysis of all the studies done on this subject matter.

He told the committee that if a child had more than 20 hours per week disruption of the secure attachment with the caregiver, there was evidence of increased likelihood of negative impact on socio-emotional development, behavioural bonding, consistent, secure attachment to an adult.

The Globe and Mail April 22, 1996 reported on a U.S. study, the most far reaching and comprehensive dealing with the first 15 months of infancy. It said the likelihood of a troubled mother-child bond can be increased by child care that is of poor quality, that changes several times or that extends to more than 10 hours per week. It also said that after the mother as primary caregiver, child care centres were ranked lowest in quality whereas fathers, relatives or other caregivers in the family home were ranked the highest.

This is not a situation of black and white. This is a situation of probabilities. We can have many situations turning out different ways but we are talking about the likelihood of outcomes. It is important for us to ensure there are high likelihoods of positive outcomes for the development of our children.

As legislators our job is to provide optimum flexibility to families to choose options suited to their situation and to their values.

What if more families to could afford to provide direct parental care? In the short term, it would free jobs possibly for those on welfare or for those who really need the jobs. It would free the demand on child care spaces and institutionalized care spaces. It would reduce stress on the family and, most important, it would recognize the value of work in the home.

In the recent census we included a question to get information about the amount of unpaid work. In the long term health, social and criminal costs to Canada would decrease significantly because of the more positive outcomes of our children.

It would create healthier, happier families. It would allow families to better discharge their lifelong duties. It would be an investment in the healthy outcomes of our children and it would constitute a significant saving to the Canadian taxpayer.

The viability of M-30 needs to be assessed not from a financial perspective, but from a balanced perspective, taking into account both social and fiscal realities. The finance minister said to the House in his very first speech: "Good fiscal policy makes good social policy and good social policy makes good fiscal policy".

Now is the time to recognize that reality. Now is the time to stop defending the status quo based on soft mathematics. Now is the time to have tax reform which restores fairness and equity to all Canadians. Now is the time to reflect social priorities in our tax policy.

The recent bill on the employment insurance program showed some movement on behalf of legislators in Canada to recognize the value of work in the home and the importance of caregiving in the home. That reform showed this by recognizing and offering for the first time training assistance and wage subsidies to parents who have taken parental leaves to provide that parental care.

In October 1994 I had a private member's Bill C-256, which proposed income splitting between couples so that one could stay at home and care for preschool children. During the debate on the bill the finance department spokesman came before the House and dismissed it on the basis that the idea was too costly and because we had already provided many tax breaks to the family. In my view, no assessment of the social realities was given, no recognition to long term benefits and no mention of anything other than it being simply too costly.

Parents know intuitively that direct parental care is optimal. In a recent Angus Reid survey 70 per cent of parents, where both were working and had preschool children, said that if they could they would choose to have one stay at home to provide direct parental care for their child.

I am not naive on this issue. The pie is not getting bigger. We do not have more money to spend. That means that we have to work smarter with what we have. Therefore, we need to reassess the propriety for existing deductions, tax credits and other tax benefits incorporated into the Income Tax Act. We need to establish whether tax breaks will be given on the basis of need and family income, such as is done with the old age security, the age credit and the new seniors' benefit which was announced in the last budget. We need to consolidate existing resources and allocate them to where we get the optimum benefit for all Canadians.

These changes will result in stronger, healthier families. I believe that if the family is strong the deficit would be gone.

The financial arguments against M-30, to provide a caregiver tax credit, take the narrow view of fiscal expediency and dwell on why we cannot rather than on how we can. I would like to give some examples to the House.

The child care expense deduction in the Income Tax Act provides for preschool children a deduction of $5,000 per child. That is not available to a stay at home parent. It is only available to someone who actually incurs the cost and pays someone else to care for their child.

What is worse is that a deduction is worth more to a high income earner than to a low income earner. As an example, someone who makes $60,000 a year and pays $5,000 for child care space receives a refund cheque from the government of $2,600. However, if someone makes only $30,000 and incurs the same $5,000 cost, their refund is only $1,800. That is an $800 difference when both taxpayers incurred the same expense for child care costs.

I have Bill C-240 before the House which proposes to convert that deduction to a tax credit so that it will be equitable and fair for all Canadian taxpayers.

Another example would be the supplement to the child tax benefit, which is $213 per year, or a working income supplement, which could be up to $500 a year. However, these are quite insignificant. They would represent something like about $12 to $13 a week. That kind of additional assistance to couples who want to choose to provide direct parental care simply does not facilitate that choice.

Also there is the disability tax credit, which can accumulate savings of some $720 to the taxpayer who is caring for a disabled relative or dependant. The reason that they get the savings is that the disability credit is transferable to the relative that is taking care of them. Again, this represents a very small amount of money, some $20 a week.

If Canadians were forced to provide care because they could not afford the cost of institutionalized care, this modicum, this very minuscule amount of dollars certainly is not going to deal with a situation that is imposed on a family. The family has that responsibility. Canadians want to be able to provide that kind of care in those situations for their family members.

The medical expenses credit provides a 17 per cent credit for expenses in excess of the lesser of 3 per cent of net income or $1,614. This is available to all Canadians. What is not available to all Canadians is that those who are employed, who have employer paid plans, have all of their expenses covered subject to possibly certain deductions and there are some uninsured costs. Those uninsured costs then can be covered when they file their income tax return to claim the additional amount of the credit. Therefore, those who have insured plans have a better opportunity to recoup a greater proportion of medical expenses. That is not available to families who make the choice to provide care in the home to a family member.

We should have a special benefit. I proposed to the finance minister that there should be at a point special rules for uninsured Canadians so they do not have to have a deductible of the first 3 per cent of their net income and that every dollar of medical expenses incurred by families that are uninsured be covered in the Income Tax Act.

There is also an infirm dependant credit which could generate savings for a family of up to $400; again, some $8 per week.

The finance department in the past, and I suspect today, will characterize the existing benefits as significant assistance to the family. I characterize these benefits as inadequate in the extreme.

By investing in families through meaningful tax breaks which facilitate care in the home to preschool children, the chronically ill, the disabled or the aged, the savings to Canada in the long term would far outweigh the costs.

Motion M-30 is not a simple solution to a complex problem but rather an opportunity for all hon. members to ask themselves whether we can do better. I believe that we can.

Tax reform is an issue which I have talked about substantially in the House on a number of private members' bills and motions. I have also prepared a report which I sent to the finance minister before preparation of the last budget. I believe that the finance minister is open to suggestions on tax reform. A blue ribbon committee has been established to deal with the corporate taxation issue. I know the minister was very receptive to a number of the changes proposed. I am sure that the kinds of things that we are talking about are progressive and should be looked at very carefully.

Tax reform is not an option, it is an imperative. Therefore on behalf of the traditional family I ask the finance minister to heed his own words when he said that "good social policy makes good fiscal policy and good fiscal policy makes good social policy".

Now is the time for tax policy to reflect good social policy and the best interests of the Canadian family.

Income Tax ActPrivate Members' Business

6:05 p.m.

Liberal

Don Boudria Liberal Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON

Mr. Speaker, if you were to seek it I believe you would find unanimous consent for the following motion. I move:

That should any vote by recorded division be requested on this bill today that it be deferred until next Monday, June 3 at 9.30 p.m.

Income Tax ActPrivate Members' Business

6:05 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Kilger)

Is there unanimous consent?

Income Tax ActPrivate Members' Business

6:05 p.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

(Motion agreed to.)

Income Tax ActPrivate Members' Business

6:05 p.m.

Bloc

René Laurin Bloc Joliette, QC

Mr. Speaker, on first reading of this private member's motion, there seems no reason to oppose it. If I may, I will read it again, simply for those who did not hear it the first time.

It reads as follows:

That, in the opinion of this House, the government should consider amending the Income Tax Act to provide a caregiver tax credit for those who provide care in the home for preschool children, the disabled, the chronically ill or the aged.

The initial reaction to this motion is to think, yes, but, if we support this motion, do we not run the risk of having the government use it as an opportunity to limit or change the benefits this group of persons already enjoys to ensure their quality of life?

There is the risk that, with this measure, by granting a tax credit, the government will reduce old age pensions or cut certain family allowances currently paid for small children.

In granting the tax credit, the government might also take away certain benefits accorded dependent individuals considered disabled.

Our first reaction was to say that we do not want the government to use this as a pretext to change the situation. After due consideration, however, we decided it was better to support this motion, which has the best of intentions, by proposing an amendment, which I will present to you in a few minutes at the end of my speech.

The purpose of this motion is not to improve the economy indirectly. We are not looking for ways to improve the lot of the unemployed or to reduce the deficit, although it would be nice to kill two birds with one stone.

The main purpose of this motion is really to find other ways to assist those who have been in dire need of such help for several years. We are thinking in particular of preschool age children, of those in early childhood, as the teachers and child psychiatrists who deal with them like to say.

According to the experts, it is before the age of three that children acquire almost all the psychological baggage they need for their own development.

Some experts say that the baggage received by children during the first three years will reflect on the rest of their lives and influence all other behaviours.

That being the case, it is important for children in that age group to have beside them people they can trust. These people are usually the mother or the father. But, when there is no mother or father available, there should be another adult in whom the children can confide, on whom they can rely every day to help in their development.

The government should have recognized this a long time ago and taken steps so that these children can get the help and support they need. Unfortunately, nowadays, financially strapped couples often have to place their children in institutions, which, as well-meaning as they may be, can never replace the love of a father, mother, big brother, big sister, uncle, aunt or grandparents who would be willing to raise these children but cannot do so for lack of financial resources.

A cure-all it is not but, in such cases, the tax credit could probably ensure that a larger number of can afford the time to do so. It could be that a person is looking to work outside the home to increase his or her self-esteem. Money is not always the only motivation.

But when people want to work outside the home but are penalized, either because their spouse will end up paying more taxes as a result or because they cannot find a job they like in a given field, there are instances where-as the hon. member who spoke before me pointed out-a cousin, uncle, aunt or other family member, provided they are not penalized, would take on this task, all the more readily if a tax measure were put in place to help them out.

Given a equivalent tax credit, some people may give up looking for a job outside the home paying $5,000, $6,000 or $10,000 a year to look after children.

The same could be done for seniors. How many families are currently forced, again for economic reasons, to send a grandfather, a grandmother, a father or a mother to a seniors residence or a nursing home, because they do not have the time to look after them? Why do they not have the time? Because they must spend all their time earning a living to make ends meet, to provide for their family's needs.

If a tax credit could be applied to the family income, that is to the income of the working spouse, it would enable the other spouse to spend some time with an older person who, instead of being sent to a seniors residence, would live with the family.

The older person would not only be better off in terms of health care, but also in terms of his or her quality of life and psychological needs. Indeed, the emotional needs of seniors are met when they live with those they love and raised, and to whom they gave the greater part of their life. I am convinced that many seniors would then live longer because they would be in a better environment in terms of their emotional needs.

For these reasons, I feel it is important to support the motion of the hon. member for Mississauga South. However, I would like to propose an amendment to ensure that, after making such a change, the government would not be tempted to cut other benefits already enjoyed by these people. As you know, a government always means well. However, sometimes, when faced with difficult conditions, it tries to make up for what it gives by taking the necessary money elsewhere.

I move:

That the motion be amended by adding after the word "aged" the following:

"without curtailing the assistance already provided to those individuals and to those groups affected by the aforesaid motion".

This amendment is seconded by the hon. member for Abitibi. I submit this amendment to the House, in the hope that it will support it, to improve the motion brought forward by the member. The proposed amendment takes nothing away from the motion, quite the contrary. It simply allows the House to have a guarantee that all those we want to help will be helped without curtailing benefits they already enjoy.

Income Tax ActPrivate Members' Business

6:20 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Kilger)

The amendment by the hon. member for Joliette is in order.

Income Tax ActPrivate Members' Business

6:20 p.m.

Reform

Jim Silye Reform Calgary Centre, AB

Mr. Speaker, I rise today to address the motion put forward by the member for Mississauga South.

He points out this would contemplate changes to the Income Tax Act which would refocus available resources to those in need. Additional savings would be realized by reducing demand on child care spaces or institutionalized services. Cutbacks at both the federal and provincial levels necessitate that we look for creative ways to provide options or more choice to families.

Although the intentions are honourable, I feel the motion as it stands is vague. I missed the first part of his speech because of standing committee work. Unless it was pointed out earlier, it does not outline the amount of the tax credit he refers to so one can compare it to the existing redistribution of tax dollars that we now

apply to families in need, the disabled and all the people he wishes to assist in a greater fashion.

From his comments, I feel there is not enough of a cost benefit analysis. The motion talks of the need for people to have more money, to have more access to funds and it is a feel good motion. We all want to do the things this motion puts forward.

On a caregiver tax credit, I thought long and hard about what is a caregiver. A caregiver is somebody who earns money and who pays the bills. That is a caregiver. Whether they give the care to themselves as a single person, whether they give the care to a family of whatever size, a caregiver is someone who pays the bills. The existing system takes care of caregivers now because we do have a lot of exemptions, deductions, incentives and loopholes within the current system.

However, with the vagueness in the motion it seems the member for Mississauga South wants to give a bigger tax credit. He lists all the things this bigger credit would do, if it is a bigger credit or just a reshuffling. It would recognize the value of work in the home. It would free up jobs. It would free up child care spaces, spaces in long term care facilities for the handicapped and the aged, provide the option for direct parental child care, promote financial independence of the spouse in the home and enhance the quality of life for families.

It seems to do an awful lot of things but we do not know how much more we have to spend to achieve all those things. It sounds like the speeches I give when I talk about the flat tax and how that is the cure all and the end all for all our problems in this confusing complicated taxation system. It seems a caregiver tax credit will solve all our problems.

There is no question there are some issues the member is seriously trying to address, and I respect his efforts to do so. We both had private member's bills before the House in which we were concerned about the discrimination against stay at home parents. There is no question our system encourages, forces, begs, pleads and wants families to have both spouses working outside the home.

There is incentive to work outside the home. If parents each earn $30,000 with two children at home versus a family that chooses to have one spouse work outside the home making $60,000 and the other looking after the children and providing the care in the home, the difference in the family situation, same family size, same salary, is about $6,000 or $7,000 in taxes.

There is discrimination against stay at home parents. In order to solve the problem I presented a private member's bill which would provide a $5,000 child care deduction for children up to age 7 and $3,000 between the ages of 8 and 13. The finance department quickly calculated that number and the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Finance gave a nice speech and said "although the suggestion of the member for Calgary Centre is honourable and great, it will cost the taxpayers another $6 billion more and therefore we cannot do it". So much for helping to eliminate discrimination against stay at home parents.

The member for Mississauga South also put forward a bill in which he looked at income splitting. I believe that suffered the same fate.

Income Tax ActPrivate Members' Business

6:25 p.m.

Liberal

Paul Szabo Liberal Mississauga South, ON

It was not votable.