Debates of Sept. 16th, 1996

Department Of National Defence

[Jack Frazer, Reform, Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC]

Mr. Speaker, the Minister of National Defence accused my colleague of interfering with the process. I would point out that it was the minister who

drew the conclusions with regard to General Boyle before General Boyle had even finished testifying.

The Prime Minister campaigned on issues of leadership, integrity and accountability. Will the Prime Minister now admit that in continuously defending his hand-picked chief of defence staff by doing nothing, he is failing to give the Canadian forces the leadership, integrity and accountability it needs and deserves?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, that is exactly what I am doing. The Canadian forces need stable leadership. I have appointed a man who has had a great career in the armed forces.

There is an inquiry going on at this time. It is always a difficult period for any organization when facing an inquiry. Let the minister of defence, the chief of staff and the inquiry do their jobs. That is what they are there for and they should be allowed to do it.

Bertrand Court Case

[Pierrette Venne, Bloc, Saint-Hubert, QC]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Justice.

Last spring, the Minister of Justice explained that the federal government was only getting involved in the Bertrand court case because the Quebec government was involved.

Now that Quebec has announced it will not have anything more to do with this case, is the next logical step not for the Minister of Justice to also withdraw from this case?

[Allan Rock, Liberal, Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada]

Mr. Speaker, a decision regarding our involvement in this case will be made in the days to come. One thing is very clear though, we fully intend to fulfil the commitment made a few months ago in the speech from the throne, when we said that, if and when there is another referendum, we will make sure that the question is clear, that the implications are clearly set out and that all Canadians have a say on the future of this country.

[Pierrette Venne, Bloc, Saint-Hubert, QC]

Mr. Speaker, in the days preceding the last referendum, the Minister of Justice stated that sovereignty was above all a political rather than a legal matter.

Could the minister tell us today if the tight vote in the last referendum had anything to do with him changing his mind and now looking to subordinate the will of the people of Quebec to a Constitution that has never been recognized by Quebec?

[Allan Rock, Liberal, Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada]

Mr. Speaker, these two basic principles are connected and each of them is very important in its own right. It is very important first to determine what the people of Quebec want and it is also very important to have a framework within which to operate.

Without a legal framework, one has chaos. The position apparently taken by the Attorney General of Quebec, a surprising position, is that he is going to have a referendum which is consultative. The very next day, if he gets the results that he wants, that is the end of the matter. The country is finished and the province is separate.

That is not the way things are done in Canada. True to say, the will and the decision of the population of Quebec is important. It must be seen in the context of a legal framework, because that is the way we do things in this country, in accordance with the rule of law.

Trade

[Paddy Torsney, Liberal, Burlington, ON]

Mr. Speaker, last spring during the visit to Ottawa of the leaders of the five Central American states, the Government of Canada committed to taking steps to strengthen Canada's ties with that region.

Given the growing importance of Central America to Canada's foreign and trade policy, can the Minister of Foreign Affairs tell us what concrete action the government has taken since last spring to enhance our relations with Central America?

[Lloyd Axworthy, Liberal, Minister of Foreign Affairs]

Mr. Speaker, last spring the Prime Minister and the Central American presidents were able to launch a new set of relationships between our two regions, which are 30 million people each.

Last week we were able to put real, concrete expression to those initiatives by starting negotiations on new sets of air links between Central America and Canada, signing a series of agreements on protection of foreign investment that will give Canadian investors a new incentive to develop in that area and a new series of trade promotions and marketing proposals.

Those economic ties now carry over into a much closer political relationship where we now work with them. Central American governments now agree to a total ban of land mines, which is a high priority for Canadians. They are working very closely with us on matters of human reform.

We can clearly see in a very short period of time that they have been able to launch a brand new generation of relationships in a very important part of the world.

National Defence

[Deborah Grey, Reform, Beaver River, AB]

Mr. Speaker, General Boyle says he enjoys the confidence of his political masters and the Canadian forces personnel.

Major Addy opposes him. So do Major-General Vernon, Major-General Lewis MacKenzie and many others. They think he should go and pack. The only people who think he should stay are the Prime Minister and the minister of defence.

When will the Prime Minister show some leadership and dump Boyle and the minister? They are the Laurel and Hardy of the Canadian military.

[David Collenette, Liberal, Minister of National Defence and Minister of Veterans Affairs]

Mr. Speaker, the government has instituted a lot of change in the Department of National Defence and the armed forces over the last few years.

Some people cannot accept change. We see that every day in the House of Commons by the performance of the hon. member and her colleagues. Those people who cannot accept change in the armed forces also include people at the general officer level. When they cannot accept change, they do the right thing by moving on.

We will continue the change. We will continue the revitalization of the officer corps, of getting better value for the taxpayers' money, of doing more with less. We will continue doing that.

If some members of the armed forces are uncomfortable with the direction we are taking the armed forces, then they are doing the honourable thing by leaving.

[Deborah Grey, Reform, Beaver River, AB]

Mr. Speaker, the minister says I am not willing to accept change.

The fact is that I am demanding change. There are millions of Canadians who are doing exactly the same thing by making sure that he leaves. That is demanding change.

He also talks about money and downsizing changes in the military. We are not talking about money here. We are talking about morals.

I want to ask the Prime Minister one more time today and give him one last chance to think this through fairly and squarely. Will he demand the resignation right now, today, of this minister and General Jean Boyle who have been an embarrassment to the people who serve in our armed forces.

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, I have nothing to add to what I have already said to the House of Commons.

Government Spending

[Gaston Leroux, Bloc, Richmond—Wolfe, QC]

Mr. Speaker, in these days of budget restrictions and high unemployment throughout Canada, the heritage minister is becoming an expert in frivolous and useless spending.

My question is for the heritage minister. How can the minister justify the fact that, starting today, she will spend $20 million on the Information Canada office, a propaganda tool, in addition to the $23 million that she is wasting on flags?

[Sheila Copps, Liberal, Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of Canadian Heritage]

Mr. Speaker, to be sure all Canadians are concerned. It is also true that, according to the daily Le Soleil , the Quebec separatist government spent $82 million to promote separation.

I believe that, instead of spending money to break up Canada, we should spend to keep our country together.

[Gaston Leroux, Bloc, Richmond—Wolfe, QC]

Mr. Speaker, clearly we are referring here to the minister's flags and patronage. If this is not propaganda, how can the minister justify the fact that the usual hiring procedures for the public service were set aside so that she could reward her federalist friends?

[Sheila Copps, Liberal, Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of Canadian Heritage]

Mr. Speaker, the Canadian flag is not my flag, it is the flag of our country. As for the Information Canada office, there is a similar service in Germany, in France, in Belgium and in the Netherlands. It goes without saying that, to keep the history of our country alive, the federal government must make a commitment and meet the request of Canadians wishing to know more about their country, which is still Canada.

Canadian Wheat Board

[David Iftody, Liberal, Provencher, MB]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Agriculture and Agri-Food.

The western grain marketing panel submitted its report to the government on July 2. Since the tabling of that report farmers have stated that they want change in the Canadian Wheat Board but they do not want to scrap the wheat board entirely. Farmers expect that a major policy announcement on this question is imminent.

Will the minister advise the House what changes are anticipated, for example in the governance of the board, and when a decision will be taken by the government on this most important matter?

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Minister of Agriculture and Agri-Food]

Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the very serious question on a very serious subject.

The government has gone through an extensive consultative process involving literally tens of thousands of producers across western Canada. That consultative process is now virtually complete. I hope to have an opportunity to discuss my conclusions and recommendations with my cabinet colleagues in the days immediately ahead.

I hope, all things being equal, to be in a position to indicate the direction we intend to take before Thanksgiving.

National Defence

[Chuck Strahl, Reform, Fraser Valley East, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I wonder if the Prime Minister and Minister of National Defence realize the message they are sending to their armed forces. They are sending a message today by trying to talk about budgets and shutdowns of certain armed forces' facilities that it is okay to have a different code of conduct for a different level of officer.

Why was an officer like General Vernon fired for the actions of his subordinates while another General like Boyle is congratulated and praised by the minister for doing exactly the same thing?

Is there a different standard for a Liberal appointment to the highest level or is the same standard to be expected throughout the entire armed forces?

[David Collenette, Liberal, Minister of National Defence and Minister of Veterans Affairs]

Mr. Speaker, the Prime Minister dealt with those matters concerning the chief of defence staff.

It is very important to underline again at the end of question period that we should allow the inquiry to do its work, to deliberate and decide what constitutes those things which are of concern to it and to the Canadian people.

As I have said before, there are some people who cannot accept change and when they cannot accept change, they do the honourable thing and leave.

[Chuck Strahl, Reform, Fraser Valley East, BC]

Mr. Speaker, members of the armed forces are looking for leadership on this portfolio, and that is not what they are getting here.

They are saying this to the Minister of National Defence and begging him to do something. We will need an inquiry into the inquiry the way this is going. He has set a special standard for the chief of defence staff, special briefings, special help, special treatment by the military police, a special way you treat access to information documents, special treatment for the chosen one, the Mr. Bean of the Canadian Armed Forces.

Why would the minister lower his standards for his chief of defence staff and expect higher standards for other people even among the general staff?

[David Collenette, Liberal, Minister of National Defence and Minister of Veterans Affairs]

Mr. Speaker, the hon. member asked me to do something. Where has he been for the last three years?

We have had a parliamentary debate on defence policy. We have instituted a white paper. We have a procurement policy of new equipment. We have re-equipped the army in a way that gives it the equipment to deal with the peacekeeping challenges of the future. We have delayered, restructured, reduced personnel by 25 per cent. We have closed 50 to 60 installations and bases with hardly a ripple across the country because we have done it fairly. I say that we have done a hell of a lot in the last three years.

The Asbestos Industry

[Jean-Guy Chrétien, Bloc, Frontenac, QC]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Prime Minister.

Following the French decision to ban asbestos in France effective January 1, 1997, the government of Quebec developed an action plan to defend the safe use of this product in consumer countries. This plan is backed up by a budget of close to $3 million from the Quebec treasury.

During his next visit to France, where he is to meet with President Chirac further to the G-7 Summit, will the Prime Minister agree to intervene personally and directly with French authorities so that France will review its positions with respect to the use of asbestos?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, I agree with the hon. member that it is possible to use asbestos safely. Our Minister of Foreign Affairs has already made representations to the French government.

When I again have an opportunity to meet with President Chirac, I will make our concerns known to him. I will be able to assure him that, here in Canada and in many other countries, we are using asbestos products in a completely safe manner, and that he should not ban this product at this time and in any other circumstance, because it has been shown that, in certain circumstances, it can be used satisfactorily and very safely.

Government Appointments

[Bob Mills, Reform, Red Deer, AB]

Mr. Speaker, we have two high profile foreign affairs employees who have now been implicated in the Somali inquiry. Of course everyone knows Mr. Fowler was removed from Canada on December 23, 1994 when the House was not sitting. We know Ms. Campbell was sent to her mansion in L.A. in July of 1996 when the House was not sitting. One now wonders whether General Boyle will receive a Christmas present and become ambassador to NATO.

Why will the Prime Minister not show some leadership and put the Canadian people first above his friends and political appointments?