Debates of Oct. 20th, 1997

Income Tax Conventions Implementation Act, 1997

[Brent St. Denis, Liberal, Algoma—Manitoulin, ON]

Mr. Speaker, it would be presumptuous of me or any member to try to speak for the entire government.

If we look at the performance of the government since first being elected in the fall of 1993 we would have to conclude the taxpayers are in very good hands. It has not increased personal income taxes one iota since being elected. If we project that into the future I would say to my colleague across the way that his bets are best with us.

The fact that persons work outside the country and we have been able to repatriate them into the domestic tax system so that they will be better off is a sign that the government cares.

We had an alternative method in the previous system. The U.S. government was the taxer and our citizens were inadvertently the victims. We have corrected that. In most cases the citizens affected by the bill will pay less taxes.

If my colleague across the way looks carefully at the record, he can presume the taxpayers are in very good hands and will be for a long time.

[Rob Anders, Reform, Calgary West, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I would like to make a comment about the government since it was elected in 1993, about how it claims to have done such a good job with taxes and about how taxes have not gone up.

Government members seem to forget that the tax on life insurance premiums were extended. At the low end it brought in an extra $120 million a year and at the high end $210 million. They seem to forget that the lifetime capital gains exemption was eliminated, which at its high point brought in $415 million in a given year.

They seem to forget deductions for business meals were reduced, which resulted at its high in $275 million more to the government. They forget the changes to the tax treatment of securities which resulted in $60 million more per year. They forgot about the air transportation tax which resulted in $41 million in its highest year. They forgot about the accelerated capital cost allowances and the $45 million it brought in, in its highest year. The excise tax on gasoline brought in $500 million. The excise tax on tobacco increased by $65 million per year.

They forgot about the reduction on the RRSP overcontribution which brought in $10 million per year. They forgot about the world income tax of non-resident pensions that brought in $10 million per year. They forgot about the RRSP withdrawal age dropping down to 69, which brought in $45 million. They forgot about another increase on tobacco that brought in $100 million.

They forgot about the overseas employment credit which brought in $10 million. They forgot about the EI premiums for part-time workers which brought in $1 billion. They forgot about EI premiums going from 3% to 3.07%, which brought in $400 million, and the bracket creep which resulted in them redefining income and bringing in $3.6 billion more. That was just the last time.

When the increase to the CPP was brought in it was the 37th tax increase. This one is the 38th. How can they possibly say they have reduced or kept taxes decent?

[Brent St. Denis, Liberal, Algoma—Manitoulin, ON]

Mr. Speaker, as I listened to my colleague across the way the first thought that came to mind was whether he agreed with closing tax loopholes.

[Jim Abbott, Reform, Kootenay—Columbia, BC]

Is the excise tax on gas a tax loophole? Give me a break.

[Brent St. Denis, Liberal, Algoma—Manitoulin, ON]

The litany of tax measures he talked about were things his own party called for. They go on and on about the CPP increase being a tax. If we throw enough mud at the wall some of it will stick.

By way of a reminder, it is an investment. We still do not know what the super RRSP rate of the Reform Party will be. Some say it will be 13% to 15%. How can they unfavourably compare that to 9% plus is beyond my comprehension.

I think they only have to look at their own program to understand that the government, in a very responsible, very people oriented and caring way, has implemented changes to the tax system which will lead to more fairness and the closing of loopholes.

At the end of the day it will lead to greater confidence by investors outside the country and investors domestically on what they should do to invest in the country. At the same time it will create more confidence among workers, seniors and everyone else in society who believes this is the best country in the world and it will remain so.

[Randy White, Reform, Langley—Abbotsford, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I think I am beginning to understand what this is all about.

I think we said that a tax is an investment. I do not know, I am only an accountant but the last time I looked we never classified a tax as an investment. I do not think that the average tax paying citizen who has to pay out of their pocket, take their wallet out and pay taxes, is looking at this as an investment.

I ask the member opposite, from the Liberal Party for those who are listening, if he could reconfirm that the Liberal government sees taxes as investments.

[Brent St. Denis, Liberal, Algoma—Manitoulin, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I think I am getting through. I appreciate this exchange for no other reason than now some members opposite are asking themselves what is the difference between an investment and a tax.

When they talk about the super RRSP, they talk about people investing. They do not talk about the rate. I will tell members what the rate will be. The rate will be something like 13% to 15% and they use the word investment in their private super RRSP of the individual Canadian.

If it is an investment for their super RRSP, it must also be an investment, at a much lower and reasonable rate, in the Canada pension plan. Clearly my colleague across the way, and I believe he is or was an accountant, should know that an investment is something which gives you a payback in the future. I expect he, along with other Canadians, will be able to get Canada pension payments back when he retires.

I am really glad that my colleagues across the way are getting a little anxious about this. I have a sense that some understanding is coming into their minds on the issue. It is nice to be holding a flashlight for them.

An investment, for the benefit of my colleagues across the way, is something that provides a repayment in the future. They along with their colleagues in other parties will understand the very big difference between a tax and an investment. Payments to CPP are an investment.

[Peter Mancini, NDP, Sydney—Victoria, NS]

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to address this bill in the House. Before I do I feel I have to make some comments with regard to the statements made by the previous two speakers, the members of the government.

I take the hon. members at their word when they talk about things like fairness and a caring government. I feel it incumbent on me to point out that if they do believe benefits should be distributed fairly and the government is actively pursuing this I can point out numerous examples where benefits have not been distributed fairly.

I could begin with the people in Atlantic Canada who are seasonal workers. I could go on to the members of the merchant marines who are seeking the same kind of benefits as other veterans from the second world war. I could go on to talk about the First Nations people who are seeking the same kind of employment opportunities that those in central Canada benefit from. I believe them when they say their government is committed to those things and I look forward to their introducing some legislation that might move us in that direction.

That being said, I feel incumbent to talk a bit about the importance of this bill to the people in my riding. It is an important bill because I represent a large number of seniors in Sydney—Victoria. There is a disproportionate amount of seniors if we look at the demographics in terms of population. We have a large number of seniors living in my riding, some of whom receive social security from the United States.

The reason that many of the seniors in my riding receive that income is telling. Many of them are seniors who went away 30 or 40 years ago to find employment in what we used to call the Boston states, to find employment in New York. The adage or the picture of the maritimer going down the road is as old as I can remember and indeed many of the seniors who would benefit from U.S. social security do so because there were no employment opportunities for them back in the 1940s and 1950s in Atlantic Canada, and unfortunately they have come home to retire to see many of their nephews and nieces and grandchildren going down the road again.

It is with some interest that the seniors in my riding who do receive this type of income will review this legislation. I cannot help wonder as we move to amend this legislation if what we are really doing is preparing the next generation of Atlantic Canadians for their U.S. social security benefits that they might collect in the event that they were fortunate enough to retire back to the land that they did not want to leave in the first place but had to because of the policies of the government that were referred to by the previous speakers as caring and fair.

That being said, it is also interesting to see the beginning of what I would call a harmonization tax system between us and the Americans. In light of recent free trade agreements, in light of recent developments it is not surprising that we are beginning to see a harmonization of tax systems between the two countries.

The previous speaker went to great lengths to talk about the health care system, how important it was to Canadians and how there may be some opposition and some concern about American giant corporations moving into that health care system. As we look at the harmonization that has taken place in terms of economic policy and the integration of the North American economic factions that this government is so proud of it is no surprise that we see today the beginnings of some type of tax harmonization.

I will now move directly to the bill. I am interested and pleased to say that in the New Democratic Party we have always fought to prevent fiscal tax evasion and we have always fought for fairer taxes. Unfortunately the same cannot be said of government. In the province I come from, if the government is concerned about fair taxes, I believe that we can begin this debate.

I believe the government has finally given us a bit of a beachhead to begin the debate that we took to the Canadian public in the last election on fair taxes. If the government is truly interested in that it should look at some things like the GST and, in the province I come from, the harmonized sales tax, which is an unfair tax. If the government were committed to fair taxation it would begin implementation of fair taxation by scrapping those taxes.

Government members may think this is rhetoric from the NDP and from the opposition benches, but I cannot help but notice that in the last provincial election in my home province of Nova Scotia the hon. premier, Russell MacLellan, who was a government member who voted in favour of the GST, during his leadership campaign thought better of it. I cannot help but notice that the former provincial finance minister, the hon. Bernie Boudreau, who negotiated the harmonized sales tax with this government, began his leadership campaign to be the Liberal premier of Nova Scotia by saying that he had thought better of it. The conversions on the road to Damascus were amazing for the people of Nova Scotia to behold. They will have their say on it before too long.

If we want to talk about the beginnings of fair taxation, we could look at some of those policies.

With respect to the bill, parts I through V which attempt to avoid double taxation we have no problem with. We can support those parts in principle.

Part VI amends the Canada-Netherlands Income Tax Convention Act, 1986 and adds provisions concerning mutual assistance in the collection of taxes and the elimination of withholding tax on patent and knowhow royalties, which are technical amendments. We may be able to find our way to support those.

Part VII, however, contains superficial revisions to the legislation from the previous Parliament and I think that we would find it difficult to support that section of the bill.

The group Canadians asking for social security equality lobbied the government to take the legislation back to pre-1996. People made their retirement plans based on the structure as it was at that time. There was one set of conditions that these seniors planned their retirement on and it has now all changed. I am concerned about the consequences to the ordinary taxpayer who cannot now change their retirement plans the way the government can change legislation.

Those people who planned for their retirement under the rules of the pre-1996 legislation will not be returned to their same situation but will find themselves taxed at 85% of their income. They are justifiably concerned and justifiably outraged.

My colleague has indicated that there should be a grandfathering clause for those individuals and I would support that. The NDP will always support legitimate tax reform and has always been the first advocate of real tax reform.

Again I note that the hon. member for Essex, who spoke in the House prior to question period, talked about how this legislation came into being. She said that her constituents lobbied her, phoned her, and then the MPs got together and persuaded the Minister of Finance to listen to their concerns. I only wish that the fairness talked about by government members and the method of introducing change could be so easily accomplished by those of us from outside the Ontario region.

My constituents have called me to lobby me concerning changes to the employment act, changes to fisheries and the TAGS program. Every time we attempt to have the Minister of Finance so graciously change his legislation, or the Minister of Human Resources Development, we are not met with quite the same friendly hand.

I admire the hon. member for Essex for her tenacity. I remind the government that we are all in this House elected members and I would hope that we would receive the same consideration from the Minister of Finance.

[Rob Anders, Reform, Calgary West, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I congratulate the member for his speech in opposition to the government legislation. I will also ask a question. The socialist to my far left talked about his opposition to the harmonized sales tax. I wonder if he could muse out loud for Canadians his thoughts on wealth taxes.

[Peter Mancini, NDP, Sydney—Victoria, NS]

Mr. Speaker, I have given my views on the harmonized tax. The hon. member is correct. I welcome his question because in terms of a tax on wealth, some of the government members used terms like every Canadian should pay exactly the same amount of taxes and at the same rate and at the same percentage. Of course I do not share that view, and that is why I oppose the harmonized sales tax.

If an individual is buying children's clothing or if a senior is paying for oil or electricity on a fixed income at the same rate as an individual who is wealthy, it is not a fair tax system. In terms of taxing the wealthy, I think they should pay their fair share which would be considerably more than many of the people in my constituency who are on fixed incomes.

[Jim Abbott, Reform, Kootenay—Columbia, BC]

Mr. Speaker, the question my colleague asked the NDP member is very important. Unfortunately it seems as though the member did not quite hear it, so I will spell it out specifically for him.

We are talking about what the NDP government has done in the province of British Columbia. Businesses come to the province of British Columbia. By virtue of the fact that they put an investment into machinery or equipment or into inventory, the NDP provincial government goes ahead and charges them a tax for the privilege of actually having that inventory there. Believe it or not, this tax is applied to inventory and assets that the business does not necessarily even own. In other words there may be mortgages, there may be liens, there may be any number of things.

Take the example of an automobile inventory for a car dealership. Believe it or not, that NDP government turns around and actually charges a 1% charge on the value of the inventory. The inventory has not been sold. If the inventory is sold, the business actually reduces its tax rate by virtue of that amount being taken off.

What is this member's position as he sees it relative to a tax on wealth, a tax on assets? Let me make the specifics of what we are talking about crystal clear for him. Let us say that an individual had a home in greater Vancouver. It is not unusual for a home in greater Vancouver to run in the $200,000 to $300,000 range. Another individual may have an equivalent home in Winnipeg that is in the $100,000 range. These are the assets, the wealth we are talking about. Would he and the NDP at the federal level see going after taxing wealth in the hands of Canadians?

[Peter Mancini, NDP, Sydney—Victoria, NS]

Mr. Speaker, given that the province of British Columbia probably has the most robust economy of any province in Canada, and given that is a direct result of the NDP government in that province, far be it for me to second guess the minister of finance for British Columbia and his policies.

The hon. member should know as to taxing property in Vancouver versus property in Winnipeg versus property in Sydney—Victoria, these are property matters that are left to another authority other than those in this House.

I welcome a real question. I would suggest that the hon. members discuss the policies of the minister of finance in British Columbia with him. They might find it in their hearts to adopt some of them.

[Randy White, Reform, Langley—Abbotsford, BC]

Mr. Speaker, some days we really get enlightened in this place. Coming from British Columbia I find it really difficult to accept the premise that British Columbia is doing well at all under the NDP government. I think the member should know that this is very likely the last term for those folks for a long, long time to come. It is maybe even the last term for this young group here for a long, long time to come.

I know the NDP is interested in putting more money into education, culture, health and other social programs. I would like to ask him whether it is the NDP's philosophy and proposal that we raise the money for these extras which they are expecting by way of additional taxes.

[Peter Mancini, NDP, Sydney—Victoria, NS]

Mr. Speaker, I will be pleased to answer the hon. clairvoyant member who seems to have a crystal ball with which he determines who will and who will not be elected.

With regard to his question, the NDP has always been concerned about education, culture, health care and social programs, the things that have always made this country great, the things that this government tried to take credit for in a prior comment.

Regarding where the money would come from, it would come from a fair taxation policy for the hundreds of corporations and wealthy individuals who pay no tax to this country for those programs now. It is a simple answer to a simple question.

[Jim Abbott, Reform, Kootenay—Columbia, BC]

Mr. Speaker, indeed it was a simple answer which belies the fact that perhaps he did not understand the question.

I will ask the question again and I am looking for a very specific answer. There have been proposals floated by the NDP government and their advisers in British Columbia that they could turn around and start to take a percentage applied to the wealth that people have in their possession.

We recognize that in Canada there are many people who are barely making ends meet. There are many people who have minimum income salaries. We recognize that, but on the other hand there are people who are in what we would call the middle income bracket which would be in the range of $35,000 to $60,000 a year. Over the lifetime of those people by virtue of property appreciation particularly in centres like Toronto and Vancouver, they have seen their wealth accumulate by virtue of capital gains on their principal residence.

It is not unusual for people who are currently making $50,000 or $60,000 a year to have RRSPs in the values of $300,000 to $400,000. They are the backbone of our community in terms of being the people who are working for their wages but who have accumulated a certain amount of wealth. We are talking about wealth.

I ask the member the question again very specifically. Would he see an NDP government going ahead and applying a percentage tax on the wealth of Canadians in the same way that the NDP provincial government has done in the province of B.C. on the capital in the possession of various companies?

[Peter Mancini, NDP, Sydney—Victoria, NS]

Mr. Speaker, there was a great deal of preface to the simple question dealing with middle income Canadians who earn between $50,000 and $60,000 a year. I guess they are middle income Canadians in the province of Alberta. They may be considered wealthy Canadians in other parts of this country.

[Jim Abbott, Reform, Kootenay—Columbia, BC]

You earn $64,000.

[Peter Mancini, NDP, Sydney—Victoria, NS]

I do not for one minute indicate that I am not in many ways better off than many of the people I represent. I understand that. These members ought to understand that as well. Like the people I represent, I have no problem paying a fair share of taxes because of the many benefits that I think this country can give me and the people I represent.

I do not think the people in these members' ridings who earn $50,000 or $60,000 or $70,000 a year mind paying their fair share of taxes because they know it derives health benefits and transportation for them and education for their children. I think those people would not be opposed to a fair taxation system.

[Rick Borotsik, Progressive Conservative, Brandon—Souris, MB]

Mr. Speaker, perhaps I am in the wrong debate in this House. I thought that C-10 was going to be discussed. However I heard a lot of comments about CPP and Bill C-2 over the last couple of speakers; harmonized sales tax, which I thought was a rather interesting comment; RRSPs; and capital tax, which was really quite interesting but does not have a lot of bearing on Bill C-10.

I particularly enjoyed the comment about housing prices in the city of Winnipeg. I do not know how it relates to C-10 but I can tell the hon. member who brought it up that in fact in Brandon our housing prices are 15% higher than those in the city of Winnipeg. They are perhaps not quite to the level of those in Vancouver but that is okay.

I would like to bring this back to C-10. The issue quite frankly is very relevant to me. My constituency has a very large seniors population as do a number of constituencies throughout this country of ours, but my riding in particular through demographics has identified a very large seniors population.

It never ceases to amaze me that when the government tries to fix a wrong it does it for the right reasons but unfortunately when the legislation is brought forward the wrong seems to be exacerbated in some areas which it has been with Bill C-10.

In an attempt to respond to the protests of CASSE and CARP, which is the Canadian Association of Retired Persons, on the non-refundable 25.5% U.S. withholding tax imposed on social security payments to Canadian residents under the 1995 tax protocol which was brought in by the existing government, the finance minister announced on April 9, 1997 the signing of a new tax protocol with the U.S. Following ratification this protocol will be effective retroactive to January 1, 1996, the implementation date of the contentious 1995 protocol. Under the new protocol, the taxation power in respect of social security payments to Canadians will be returned to Canada while the U.S. will again assume power to tax CPP and OAS receipts of their residents.

Initially the finance minister's announcement brought great joy locally as it appeared we were returning to the 50% inclusion rate that prevailed prior to January 1, 1996. Further, the finance minister announced that upon ratification of the new protocol, refunds would be available to those Canadians whose tax in 1996-97 social security payments would be reduced under the new protocol. Apparently the two governments are working together in this regard.

CASSE's joy however turned to bitter disappointment when it was learned that under the finance minister's new system the income inclusion rate for the social security would now be 85%. This represents a 70% increase in the rate of taxation of social security jumping from a 50% inclusion rate to an 85% inclusion rate for everybody but those retirees who are not taxable having under $11,000 in income.

This new inclusion rate will also be retroactive to January 1, 1996 for the purposes of determining refunds, although no one will be required to pay more tax for 1996 and 1997 than the U.S. withheld. Low income Canadians who have been hit by the 25.5% U.S. withholding tax should not have to wait for both the ratification of the new protocol and then until the summer of 1998 for the processing of their return seeking a refund for tax withheld in 1996 and 1997. Retired people in this income bracket need the money now. Our government should undertake to do that forthwith through the GIS system.

The finance minister told CASSE that the first change to a withholding tax system was revenue neutral. No numbers however have been released as to the revenue earned by the Canadian government in the old system or what revenue was realized in imposing withholding tax on OAS and CPP to U.S. residents or what revenue will be realized under the new system in the 1997 protocol. These numbers are necessary for any policy debate in this area and we should be pressing the Minister of Finance to reveal these numbers immediately.

Not having the numbers means that we do not know whether the 70% increase in tax on social security first effectively occurred with the imposition of the withholding tax system in the 1995 protocol or with the changes announced with the 1997 protocol or a combination of both.

However, if the finance minister's budget is not based on the 1997 protocol just signed which affects 1998 and subsequent years, our party should be prepared to roll back in taxes immediately that portion of the revenue increase caused by the 1997 protocol.

Finally, after the year fiscal year 2000 when our budget moves into a surplus, which I believe very strongly should be this fiscal year, we should undertake to return to the old system of the 50% inclusion rate which reflects the fact that contributions to the U.S. system are made out of after tax dollars and that under the finance minister's protocol, cross border workers are being doubly taxed on their retirement income.

I would like to commend the government for recognizing the mistake that was made in 1995. I would further like to state that it is a sight for sore eyes that while it recognizes the mistake it made, it actually decided to do something about it. I wish I could commend the government further, however a few important items seem to be missing from this discussion.

The Progressive Conservative Party will not support this bill with the pittance of information that we seem to have here and without a much more significant, in depth discussion to determine the real effects of this bill on retired people.

The finance minister stated previously that this is a revenue neutral bill. The minister has further entered into a tax treaty increasing the income inclusion from a 50% inclusive rate to an 85% inclusion rate. The remove of the withholding tax is a step in the right direction.

The PC Party understands that some income earners, especially the lower income earners, may actually see a decrease in their level of taxation. This is another step in the right direction. The Progressive Conservative Party further notes that some income earners will see a huge increase in their levels of taxation. We in this House do not condone that action.

It is unfortunate today that after seeing the government recognize and correct the mistake in a positive and progressive manner, it must dig further into the pockets and raise tax levels like this. I hope this bill is in fact revenue neutral as the finance minister would have us believe.

It is with dismay that the PC Party must rise against this bill. However, I hope that through more in depth discussion and some changes we will be able to see a corrected mistake that will actually reduce taxation levels rather than raise them.

[Rob Anders, Reform, Calgary West, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I would like to address the speech just made by the not so Conservatives.

This morning their member for West Nova stood before the House and talked about how Bill C-10 was something good and that they were supporting the technical amendment that the government was putting on seniors. Later this afternoon the member for Brandon—Souris stood and said that they are in favour of it. Indeed, at the beginning of the day it was supposed to be the finance critic for the Conservative Party who was to stand and say they were opposed to it.

Now we have had one speech in favour of Bill C-10 and one speech against it. Where do they stand on this? Are Conservatives in favour of a tax hike or not?

[Rick Borotsik, Progressive Conservative, Brandon—Souris, MB]

Mr. Speaker, the hon. member was obviously not listening to the full body of my presentation. There are some good things within the proposed legislation. I am sure even the hon. member would agree with that. Unfortunately there are inconsistencies in the bill, particularly the one with respect to the inclusion.

My colleague from West Nova indicated that very thing, that we could accept some of the proposed changes, good changes which the Liberals have put forward but that we could not accept them based on the facts, figures and numbers we have at this time with respect to the taxation rates which will be attached to this bill.

I spoke previously and I rise again as my colleague from West Nova did. We will speak and vote against this legislation until we are assured by the government there will not be any additional taxes raised on the backs of retired people.

[John Bryden, Liberal, Wentworth—Burlington, ON]

Mr. Speaker, we on this side of the House are able to express our opinions freely in debate and look for the pros and cons of legislation. We do not commit ourselves to restricting what we say simply because of the party line. A healthy debate on all sides of the House is a sign of an active Parliament.

I address my comment and question to the member who just spoke. In my riding office I received a number of elderly constituents who are receiving U.S. benefits and they spoke of hardship because their benefits were being taxed in the United States. I felt powerless to help them and told them this was a matter of U.S. administration and could only be resolved by a treaty between Canada and the United States.

A treaty is in the process of occurring. We have a bill before the House. I accept that some members may feel it has some inadequacies.

Does the member agree that in addressing the concerns of low income seniors receiving benefits from the United States the bill is a good thing?

[Rick Borotsik, Progressive Conservative, Brandon—Souris, MB]

Mr. Speaker, my answer is unequivocally yes. I said in my preamble that it is nice to see a positive attempt to change an injustice. In saying that, the injustice was put in place by that very government in 1996 and it is trying to correct it now.

When you accept the fact that a mistake was made, trying to fix that mistake is very positive. We thank you for that. The unfortunate part is that there are still unknowns.

I am sure a number of these issues will be dealt with in committee and some fine tuning will be done to the bill at that point. I am sure the government would agree that if there are some inequities in the legislation they should be changed prior to the passage of the bill. That is democracy and I do appreciate that.

In saying that, as part of the body of my talk I also suggested that the timing for a lot of those very people that you talk about is still extended. Instead of a solution today we are looking to the summer of 1998 when a lot of these people who have already paid 1996 and 1997 taxation levels will not be able to get that refund. We are suggesting that perhaps the government should consider refunding those dollars to the people who need them. They are at the lower level income areas and perhaps we should refund those now rather than wait until the summer or fall of 1998.

[Rob Anders, Reform, Calgary West, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I address my question to the member from the not so Conservatives.

It turns out that the party has in its later thoughts this afternoon decided that they are now opposed to the bill. I congratulate them on that.

Since they are not voting in favour of this tax increase, how is the member from Brandon—Souris going to get the money to pay for some of the money he was begging from the government in question period for his constituency in Manitoba? He was bellyaching about not enough money being given to them. How is he going to pay for that?

[Rick Borotsik, Progressive Conservative, Brandon—Souris, MB]

Mr. Speaker, the hon. member confuses a lot of issues. The question during question period was with respect to transfer payments to provinces. Even though the transfer payments have been decreased and the budget is balanced we still do not have sufficient funding to go into the health care system. If we wish to talk about health care, I can do that. But this is Bill C-10.

Quite frankly, the revenues that are generated by this legislation are not sufficient to cover off the $250 million that has been a shortfall in Manitoba since 1994 for health care services as well as for shortfalls in other jurisdictions. Seven out of ten provinces have had shortfalls in their transfer payments from the 1994-95 budget period up until today. There are ways of coming up with efficiencies and finding other revenues which can be forwarded to the health care system. It does not speak to Bill C-10. I believe that this legislation must stand on its own.