House of Commons Hansard #16 of the 36th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was taxes.

Topics

PrivilegeOral Question Period

3 p.m.

The Speaker

I know that the matter raised by the member took place during question period but, in my view, it was the member himself who asked the question. Therefore I would ask him to give me notice and we will be able to hear his question of privilege tomorrow rather than today.

A tragedy took place last week in one of our provinces, the Province of Quebec, and I received notices that there would be tributes paid today regarding this tragedy. The first member to whom I am going to give the floor is the hon. member for Beauce, and then we will proceed as usual.

Éboulements TragedyOral Question Period

3 p.m.

Liberal

Claude Drouin Liberal Beauce, QC

Mr. Speaker, as the Liberal member of Parliament for Beauce, I rise today on behalf of the government to extend to the families of the 43 victims of the bus crash in Les Éboulements our deepest condolences on their loss.

What explanation or comfort can we offer? What can we say to help these families understand and accept such a tragedy? If I had the answer to any one of these questions, I would have rushed to share it with my constituents and friends of Saint-Bernard de Beauce.

Neither I nor anyone else has the power to explain that which cannot be explained or to prevent pain and suffering. To all the children, grandchildren, spouses, brothers and sisters, nieces and nephews, uncles, aunts, cousins, friends and neighbours left bereaved by this tragic accident, we offer our friendship. We will stand by them and listen to them.

It is unfortunate that it takes a tragedy like this one to have us realize how strong the ties are between the hearts of all Canadians and how sensitive we all are to the pain of our fellow citizens.

I very closely monitored reports of the accident in Les Éboulements and I spoke to several members of the victims' families. They all mentioned the extraordinary generosity and solidarity they witnessed during this ordeal. Many messages of sympathy were sent from every part of Canada, throughout last week.

All our kind words and our words of encouragement will not bring back those who died last week. However, I persist in believing that the friendship, solidarity and respect displayed so far will, in time, ease the pain and sadness of the people of Saint-Bernard.

Some will say that things will never be the same again in Saint-Bernard de Beauce and that the tragic death of the 42 residents and the serious injuries to five others will finally kill the spirit of this magnificent town. I cannot agree with them because, after visiting the place, after meeting and comforting members of the families of the victims, I have to tell you that the essence of the Beauce spirit was not lost in the accident.

This harmonious mixture of pride, solidarity, generosity and ingenuity mobilized the entire community within a few hours of the accident. It is this strength of spirit that gives us the courage to carry on and that ensures that the people of Saint-Bernard de Beauce will dig in even harder and will together survive the worst highway tragedy in Canada.

I reiterate in closing our most sincere sympathy for the terrible drama they fell victim to and our wishes for a speedy recovery for those still in hospital. I can assure them that both I and my government will always be there to help them lighten ever so slightly the burden of sorrow they carry.

Éboulements TragedyOral Question Period

3:05 p.m.

Calgary Southwest Alberta

Reform

Preston Manning ReformLeader of the Opposition

Mr. Speaker, I rise to join with you and other members in expressing our profound sympathy for the victims of the tragic bus accident in Quebec last Monday and for their grieving families.

On behalf of my colleagues in the official opposition, I offer our deepest sympathies to the families of the people who died and wish those injured a speedy recovery. We will be thinking of the residents of Saint-Bernard de Beauce in the days and weeks to come and we will pray they find the strength and courage they need to bear their terrible losses.

Most of the victims of this terrible tragedy were older people. They were part of a generation of Quebeckers for whom religious faith was real and tangible. Many of them could therefore identify with the words of St. Paul who suffered much himself when he referred his readers to “the God of all comfort, who comforts us in all our tribulations”.

Our prayer for their friends and families is that this God of all comfort would be especially close now and in the days ahead.

Éboulements TragedyOral Question Period

3:10 p.m.

Bloc

Gilles Duceppe Bloc Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC

Mr. Speaker, words can scarcely describe the sorrow felt by everyone in Quebec this past week in the wake of the tragedy at Saint- Joseph-de-la-Rive.

Forty-two members of the golden age club in the small locality of Saint-Bernard de Beauce, along with their bus driver André Desruisseaux, lost their lives in the worst highway accident in the history of Quebec.

The families of the victims and the five injured survivors have been in our thoughts throughout the entire week. We wish the survivors a rapid recovery.

The Government of Quebec acted with a diligence that echoed Quebeckers' sensitivity to this tragic accident, by instituting a public investigation. The exact causes of this tragic event will soon be known to us. Recommendations will be made with a view to preventing another such tragedy from happening.

In closing, I would again like to reiterate, on behalf of the Bloc Quebecois, our sincere condolences to the victims' relatives and to all the people of Saint-Bernard. I would also like to honour the people of Les Éboulements who came to the assistance of the bus passengers.

Éboulements TragedyOral Question Period

3:10 p.m.

NDP

Lorne Nystrom NDP Qu'Appelle, SK

Mr. Speaker, I would like to join with my colleagues in expressing my distress and sorrow at the accident that occurred last week in Les Eboulements in the Charlevoix region, in the province of Quebec.

This accident took the lives of 43 people, 42 of them from Saint-Bernard de Beauce. This is the worst bus accident in Canada's history, and tragically it occurred at almost exactly the same place as another accident, which occurred nearly 20 years ago just beside Les Eboulements.

The Quebec premier called for a public inquiry. We hope that it will provide some answers and that its recommendations will help prevent another similar tragedy in the future.

On behalf of my party, the New Democratic Party of Canada, I would like to offer our deepest sympathy to all of the families and friends of the 43 people who lost their lives last week. I would also like to express our solidarity with the people of Saint-Bernard de Beauce and the member for Beauce and offer them our moral support.

Éboulements TragedyOral Question Period

3:10 p.m.

Progressive Conservative

André Harvey Progressive Conservative Chicoutimi, QC

Mr. Speaker, on Monday, October 13, one of the worst highway accidents of this century took place in Quebec.

I would like to take the opportunity afforded me today to express to the families of the victims on my own behalf and on behalf of my colleagues in the Progressive Conservative Party my deepest sympathies and my support during this very difficult time.

We are hard pressed to find the words when such tragedies occur. Our sorrow is so great that our emotions become inexpressible. We must simply gather our thoughts and pray that our pain, especially that of the families affected, may soon be eased by the many happy memories that these victims leave behind them.

It is very difficult to provide answers to things that are beyond human reason. It is better to speak of the lives of the victims and of what awaits them.

Highway safety is everybody's business. Everyone in this country must be on the watch. I simply hope that, after an accident like this, everyone will pay even closer attention to highway conditions that are often difficult and that require co-operation from all levels of government.

In closing, I would like to say to the sorely tested communities of Charlevoix and Beauce that they are not alone in their suffering and that we are all here to share it with them.

Order In Council AppointmentsRoutine Proceedings

October 20th, 1997 / 3:15 p.m.

Peterborough Ontario

Liberal

Peter Adams LiberalParliamentary Secretary to Leader of the Government in the House of Commons

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to table, in both official languages, a number of order in council appointments made by the government. Pursuant to Standing Order 110(1), these are deemed referred to the appropriate standing committees, a list of which is attached.

Patent ActRoutine Proceedings

3:15 p.m.

NDP

John Solomon NDP Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, SK

moved for leave to introduce Bill C-248, an act to amend the Patent Act.

Mr. Speaker, I would like to extend my appreciate to my colleague, the member for Winnipeg North Centre, for seconding this very important bill.

I am pleased to introduce a bill entitled an act to amend the Patent Act. The bill will limit the life of patents for medicines to 17 years and allow for compulsory licences to be granted to the manufacture and sale of medicines after the original patentee has had the medicine approved for marketing for four years.

It also states that the royalty rate is to take into account the amount of medical research carried out in Canada by the applicant and the patentee. There is a provision for refusal or deferral of a licence if a patentee has been unusually delayed in comercializing the medicine.

In essence, this bill will reduce prescription drug costs to Canadians, create more jobs for Canadians, provide competition from Canadian generic drug manufacturers and reduce the rising cost pressure high drug costs have created in our health care system.

The bill addresses Bill C-91, the Drug Patent Act, which has caused prescription drugs to skyrocket in costs. It has affected our medical care system by driving up the cost of prescription and hospital drugs and other drugs to individual users.

(Motions deemed adopted, bill read the first time and printed)

Income Tax ActRoutine Proceedings

3:15 p.m.

Liberal

Murray Calder Liberal Dufferin—Peel—Wellington—Grey, ON

moved for leave to introduce Bill C-249, an act to amend the Income Tax Act.

Mr. Speaker, I would like to thank the hon. member for Oxford for seconding the bill.

Every day in Canada volunteer firefighters donate their time and risk their lives for the good of their communities. Often they receive an allowance to reimburse them for the expenses they incur in discharging their duties. There is no income tax on the first $500 they receive as part of their expense allowance but they must pay tax on any amount exceeding $500. This bill would double the tax exemption from $500 to $1,000. It would mean that volunteer firefighters would not be taxed on reasonable expenses incurred in their work, work which requires them to risk their lives to protect their fellow citizens.

In our communities today we are relying more and more on volunteer firefighters to perform these services.

(Motions deemed adopted, bill read the first time and printed)

PetitionsRoutine Proceedings

3:20 p.m.

Liberal

Peter Adams Liberal Peterborough, ON

Mr. Speaker, I have a petition from hundreds of citizens of the Peterborough region who are concerned about the proposed increase in the basic telephone rate.

They point out that each incident of increase harms those on fixed incomes whose lifestyle has already been downsized. The phone service is a lifeline, a prerequisite for services such as health care, safety and community.

They point out that the incidence of increases has become more frequent with the advent of technological change. They say the cost of such changes should be borne by the users and should be segregated from the basic rate.

Therefore they call on Parliament to intercede on behalf of seniors and low income families to rescind the decision of the CRTC to raise local telephone service rates.

Questions On The Order PaperRoutine Proceedings

3:20 p.m.

Peterborough Ontario

Liberal

Peter Adams LiberalParliamentary Secretary to Leader of the Government in the House of Commons

I ask, Mr. Speaker, that the all questions be allowed to stand.

Questions On The Order PaperRoutine Proceedings

3:20 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland)

Is that agreed?

Questions On The Order PaperRoutine Proceedings

3:20 p.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

The House resumed consideration of the motion that Bill C-10, an act to implement a convention between Canada and Sweden, a convention between Canada and the Republic of Lithuania, a convention between Canada and the Republic of Kazakhstan, a convention between Canada and the Republic of Iceland and a convention between Canada and the Kingdom of Denmark for the avoidance of double taxation and the prevention of fiscal evasion with respect to taxes on income and to amend the Canada-Netherlands Income Tax Convention Act, 1986 and the Canada-United States Tax Convention Act, 1984, be read the second time.

Income Tax Conventions Implementation Act, 1997Government Orders

3:20 p.m.

Bloc

Yves Rocheleau Bloc Trois-Rivières, QC

Mr. Speaker, it is with great pride that I rise to make my maiden speech in this 36th Parliament.

I would like to take this opportunity to thank the people of the riding of Trois-Rivières for once again placing their trust in me, and in particular the people of the new area in the Trois- Rivières riding that takes in Louiseville, Maskinongé and Saint-Léon-le-Grand, who placed their trust in me for the first time. I intend to keep doing a good job, as Mr. Duplessis once said, and to try to represent my constituents to the best of my ability by taking to heart their hopes and their problems, and by devoting a good part of my energy, for this is also fundamental for me, to promoting, in keeping with the Bloc Quebecois' mandate, the sovereignist proposal, which we feel is the best status for the people of Quebec in the international community.

I am also happy to speak to Bill C-10. If I may, I will read the purpose of this bill, an act to implement a convention between Canada and Sweden, a convention between Canada and the Republic of Lithuania, a convention between Canada and the Republic of Kazakhstan, a convention between Canada and the Republic of Iceland and a convention between Canada and the Kingdom of Denmark for the avoidance of double taxation and the prevention of fiscal evasion with respect to taxes on income and to amend the Canada-Netherlands Income Tax Convention Act, 1986 and the Canada-United States Tax Convention Act, 1984.

The main purpose of this bill is to prevent tax evasion. Its fair and equitable purpose is to prevent double taxation when a company pays taxes in a country with which Canada has signed a treaty. This is, therefore, a measure aimed at ensuring fair and equitable taxation for residents and non-residents, as well as at encouraging trade and investments between countries.

These treaties must not, however, open the door to abusive tax evasion. It must be kept in mind, moreover, that the purpose of tax conventions is to eliminate double taxation; in other words, profits and income earned in one country covered by the convention will be taxed in that country alone. A Canadian company earning 50% of its profits in the United States will be able, under certain conditions, to bring those profits back to Canada without being taxed once again by Revenue Canada.

This is more or less what the bill is all about. It will define financial and trade relations between corporations.

There are some things that bear repeating on the operation of our taxation system, and I will address it by using the May 1996 auditor general report as my main inspiration. First of all, however, I would like to make you aware that in Canada we have a bad example, coming from our No. 2 man in politics, the finance minister who, as a businessman, has a major interest in Canada Steamship Lines.

We were given some valuable information in Le Soleil on April 24, 1997 on the actions of that company, no doubt carried out by the agents of the Minister of Finance. Canada Steamship Line, until 1981, oddly enough, operated exclusively in Canada; since then, it has diversified, with globalization, and now deals, strangely enough, with countries that have very little taxation, countries known as tax havens.

As we saw earlier, tax treaties should be signed by economies which are more or less on a par, with the understanding that some gains and losses will result, thus the consequent dealings on tax issues. However, there are countries in this world where one can make profits, pretend to pay taxes and come back to Canada saying I paid my dues over there«, just like in well-structured countries where people really pay taxes. Such countries are called tax havens.

So, Canada Steamship Lines expanded its operations to three countries that are tax havens and banana republics, namely Bermuda, Liberia and Barbados. In Bermuda, there is no tax on revenues, with a possible exemption until the year 2016. Canada Steamship Lines does business there.

In Liberia, there is no tax on ship operations. There is only an annual tax of $350 U.S., but no tax on ship operations.

In Barbados, a decreasing tax is imposed. Believe it or not, the rate goes from 2.5% down to 1%. Canada Steamship Lines pretends to pay taxes in these countries and then tells Revenue Canada that it indeed paid taxes, but this is against the spirit of the law.

It is very unfortunate. There are probably not too many countries in the world where a finance minister, albeit very honourable, can behave in such fashion. People in certain circles have been saying for quite a while that this situation should be addressed and it has not been addressed. A kind of conflict of interest therefore exists which we have a right to denounce.

I would now like to quote extensively from the auditor general's report of May 1996, an entire chapter of which deals with tax avoidance. The very fact that an entire chapter deals with this issue shows that there is a deep uneasiness with the way revenue collection is managed in the Prime Minister's great big Canada.

On page 11-9 of his report, the auditor general prefaces the chapter by stating that “Amending tax law is crucial”. Paragraph 11.12 reads as follows:

—Problems in the application of the law need to be noted and corrected as soon as possible.

Paragraph 11.13 states, and I quote:

11.13 We noted that Revenue Canada has brought to the attention of the Department of Finance—

Because there are discussions between these people; information flows between them. The finance department we mentioned earlier is at the heart of the whole process.

11.13 We noted that Revenue Canada has brought to the attention of the Department of Finance many situations suggesting that the law needed to be strengthened. When this is the case, it is customary for both departments to exchange views on the best way to modify the tax legislation.

He goes on to give examples of delays. The auditor general criticizes among other things the fact that action is slow in coming despite the urgency of the situation with regard to the tax base, which he himself referred to.

We can see the practical repercussions on the tax base. This is why there were so many cuts and why, on the back of the provinces and the most disadvantaged, the most vulnerable in our society, and I'll get back to this in a few minutes, the deficit was cut.

The auditor general said:

—For example, in 1989, changes to the rules dealing with non-resident corporations were requested by tax avoidance officials. The changes are still under consideration.

That was in 1989: “The changes are still under consideration”.

In 1990, changes to rules dealing with forgiveness of debt were requested; the change was introduced in 1994 and became effective in 1995.

In 1991, changes to the rules dealing with tax shelters were requested. These have not been finalized.

Paragraph 11.15 is very interesting, and I quote:

11.15 Our 1990 report à this was written in 1996—noted that the law enables a private foundation to loan back to a non-arm's-length donor all funds donated. Interest payments on the loan may also be loaned back to the donor. Revenue Canada has reassessed some cases where donations were loaned back, and is pursuing other cases, no legislative action has been taken yet to stop these abusive schemes.

This is tax evasion. It deprives the tax system of funds it is entitled to and obliges the government to penalize those who have no money. Thus the auditor general tried as well to look at the government's political intention to really collect the funds due it to ensure greater fiscal justice. He went to the offices of Revenue Canada in Toronto.

In paragraph 11.25, the report states:

—the Department's large business tax auditors referred only 27 cases to the tax avoidance unit in 1994-95. Only one referral was made by its large business tax auditors in Toronto—

Only one referral was made by the large business tax auditors in Toronto, where many large businesses are located.

Finally, the West is not left out where money is concerned. The Reform Party ought to be thrilled to hear that. The auditor has a kind thought for the westerners in paragraph 11.30 of his document, where he states, this time about Calgary:

11.30 Calgary tax avoidance auditors have identified avoidance schemes in the oil and gas sector involving the inappropriate use of losses totalling $826 million.

This time it is a matter of tax evasion compromising the tax base. This is nothing but talk, at a time when the decision has been made to put our fiscal house in order, a time when the decision has been made that the welfare state is no more, at a time when it is announced that there will be no more money paid out unless we know where it is going, at a time when systematic cuts are being made in services which would, normally, be useful, unemployment insurance primarily.

There was no hesitation here, as in the rest of the western world, to cut unemployment insurance, which they have blithely renamed employment insurance. Now fewer than 50% of unemployed people can get unemployment insurance. This is scandalous in itself, that people pay in and criteria after criteria after criteria are created with the result that, when people do get into the vulnerable position of losing their jobs, they are deprived of something they have paid into for so many years. The result of this is that today fewer, far fewer, than 50% of those who end up unemployed are entitled to unemployment insurance.

We know the shameful cuts that have been made in all provinces, cuts that have put the provinces in difficulty and that have forced them to make cuts to health care throughout Canada. Provincial governments have been forced to make cuts in education and in sectors fundamental to a civilized society. And for what reason? But the tax base is being destroyed, as we have just shown, through evasion.

Yet, we know about the many women who are single parents in Canada right now and about the rampant poverty. We know about the staggering growth in food banks—they are almost doing more business than any of Canada's other banks. We know about the crushing level of individual debt—and if there were a new increase in interest rates, you know what would happen. We know about the terrible situations in which people find themselves, and which drive too many of our fellow citizens to take their own lives. We know about the number of people burning out in our society today. We know that the ranks of the poor have swelled by 300,000 since the Liberals came to power in 1993. We know that 1.5 million people are unemployed in this wonderful country called Canada, and that the Prime Minister makes disgraceful claims here in the House and abroad, as though there were no problems, as though he were uninformed. We know about the record number of personal bankruptcies being declared in our economy right now, which undermines both individuals and their families.

Things are not going well in this country. Why? Because the government is too lax and too soft with those who hold financial power, those who can develop schemes such as the ones condemned by the auditor general because they deprive our tax base of its ability to better redistribute wealth. This scandal is a daily occurrence and, even though it was condemned by the auditor general, it has yet to be corrected.

There is the issue of tax avoidance. There is the issue of family trusts, which is another major scandal. What emerged was probably the tip of the iceberg, once again thanks to the auditor general's work. We know that, on December 23, 1991, a series of discussions secretly took place between Finance and Revenue officials, with Revenue Canada almost refusing to comply with the finance department's order to practically amend its Income Tax Act regarding the transfer of assets from the Canadian economy to the American economy, because this is exactly what happened.

The Canadian tax legislation is very clear. There are two times when each and everyone of us must normally à and I mean normally à pay our dues to the Canadian tax man: when we die or when we leave the country.

Following this undue pressure from the Department of Finance, once again, one very big, or perhaps two à it is all very nebulous à family trusts were able to take assets worth $1 billion Can. each and transfer them to the United States without paying taxes. This is a very serious action, whose implications are unfortunately yet unknown because everything is so nebulous and kept secret at the expense of low income earners.

This has led to the cuts that we know about, depriving the government of hundreds of millions of dollars in tax revenue, anything between $350 million and $700 million depending on the interpretation. That is how, in this great big country, we have come to make cuts at the expense of the less fortunate and at the expense of the provinces, which, in turn, have to make more cuts at the expense of the less fortunate.

What this means is that an in-depth tax reform is required in Canada to ensure that all Canadians pay their fair and equitable share of taxes according to their means, their individual wealth, in a spirit of social justice, this social justice about which we have heard so much rhetoric by the likes of Pierre Elliott Trudeau, as the members across the way know very well. In a fair society, wealth is distributed equitably instead of being increasingly concentrated, because wealth that is not distributed does not evaporate, it is concentrated.

It is safe to say that wealth is increasingly concentrated in Canada, as well as throughout the western hemisphere, where, unfortunately, approximately 200 boards of directors or families are gaining more and more control over the planet, subjugating government more and more everywhere, in the western hemisphere and around the world.

According to a UN report—and I will conclude on this—if I remember correctly, there are 358 billionaires controlling 45% of the global wealth. We have problems in Canada, Quebec and the western hemisphere. It is high time that governments freely generated revenue and communicated more so that we can have, around the world, in this country and in the new state that Quebec will be, a fairer and more equitable society where everyone contributes according to his means.

Income Tax Conventions Implementation Act, 1997Government Orders

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Jerry Pickard Liberal Kent—Essex, ON

Mr. Speaker, it is a pleasure for me to speak to Bill C-10. It is a bill that is wrapped in fairness. There is absolutely no question that when people are treated in an unfair way that the unfairness be corrected.

Quite frankly, when the Canadian government examined what had happened in the tax agreements with the United States—by the way several other countries are involved in this tax agreement—in 1995-96, it realized there was an imbalance in the way Canadians paid taxes.

This is the background history to Bill C-10 and what the benefits will be. I would like to compare Canadians from 1984 onward who worked in the United States. Take for example security guards working in Michigan earning $20,000 and security guards working in the House of Commons. When these people added up their retirement benefits, those who worked in the United States had been given 50% of their benefits tax free, but those people who worked in Canada had to pay tax on 100% of their income.

It is a common thought by every one of us that if there is to be fairness, if each person earns $20,000 and is paid equal benefits, the taxation should be somewhat equal. It is very difficult to justify a 50% reduction for those Canadians who worked in the United States but who claimed their taxes in Canada where every other Canadian had to pay on the full 100% of their income.

Maybe I could explain the reason why that structure existed. The United States had a rule at that time that it would tax only 50% of social security benefits. It was able to say to all those who received benefits such as social security, family benefits or disability benefits it would only charge on 50%.

We have a totally different system in Canada. Our system says “For you folks who need that extra support, we will pay health care. We will pay the benefits that this country gives over and above a tax break in the dollars you receive”. Our structure was designed to make sure that Canadians got the basic services that they wanted. We look at the health care, the drug plans, the benefits that seniors have in this country. That is not the case in the United States.

However, as we go along with this process and as we looked at it we thought that in order to bring fairness we would write a tax treaty with the United States before 1996. In that change to the tax treaty what the finance minister tried to implement was a system where if you drew your benefits from the United States you would pay the normal United States taxation and if you drew your benefits from Canada you would pay the normal Canadian benefits.

The problem that occurred at that point was that the United States, rather than stay with that, charged all Canadians who were receiving social security benefits from the United States 25.5% taxation on those benefits and put a clause in stating that those taxes would be non-refundable. Even if under United States law they were not required to pay that much money, it still taxed them at a rate of 25.5%, which myself, all of the members in the Liberal caucus whom I talked to and the finance minister all agreed that the United States was being very unfair to Canadians.

Here is the scenario that the United States implemented. It was charging its own folks in their own country one rate, but Canadians working in that country were charged a higher rate. That was very unfair. They could not file to get the 25% back. If they were not supposed to be paying more than 10% they could not make a tax filing and get the 15% back. They were just taxed a flat rate of 25.5% which made it that Canadians who worked in the United States and received social security were being treated very badly.

The finance minister then looked at what was transpiring and said he would correct it. This is a result of a lot of negotiations with the United States and a lot of negotiations in Canada to try to come up with a policy which states that all Canadians will be taxed in a fair and just way and Americans who actually earn incomes here in Canada, the U.S. can tax them in a fair and just way. However, we do not want to see Canadians who work in the United States taxed unfairly.

The result was that Bill C-10 was negotiated with the United States over the last many months. We have worked on trying to correct those problems that were there and were being used in a very unfair way for taxation policy.

There are things that we did to try to correct that policy. That hardship of a 25.5% withholding tax in the United States on Canadians is totally eliminated. The unfairness of that system is gone. Canadians who earn social security in the United States will have that social security come back to Canada and here in Canada they will be taxed at the regular Canadian rates. What it really means is that instead of being overtaxed in the United States, all Canadians now will be taxed by the Canadian government and they will be taxed on the basis of fairness to all Canadians.

There is one slight benefit for those people who receive social security benefits in the United States and come back and are taxed in Canada. They will only be taxed on 85% of the income that they receive from the United States. In other words they are still a little bit better off than all other Canadians, but it is certainly a much more fair and just system that has been put in place.

The people who are hurt by this 25.5% rule that the United States put in were mainly those folks who earned less than $30,000. The lower your income in Canada by the time you take your benefits off and look at the portion of your income that you pay in taxes, it reduces. As your income is lower, so is your tax percentage lower. As a result we are trying to get a policy in place by C-10 that gives more fairness to low income Canadians.

The result of that move really makes a big difference with a lot of Canadians. Under the new rules several thousand Canadians will pay less taxes than they did before under the other agreement. In fact there will be several thousand Canadians who will not have to pay any taxes at all on that income. It is a real benefit for low income Canadians, particularly those who have an income of $30,000 or less.

Once this policy is approved by the Canadian Parliament and the U.S. Senate, Canadian authorities will be able to work to ensure that refunds are given to those who were overtaxed in these last two years. In other words Revenue Canada is going to take on the job of checking what they paid to the United States and what they should have paid under Canadian law and make certain that they get refunds. Those refund cheques will go out as soon as this bill becomes law.

The bill will become law when it is passed in Canada and in the United States. The sooner the bill is passed the sooner we will get fair treatment for lower income Canadians. That is why there is an urgency to move the bill ahead quickly now.

There is no question that for most residents of Canada, refunds will be handled by Revenue Canada. As a result they will not have to make application to the United States. We are trying to simplify the process as much as we can. Where those calculations show they receive money back, cheques will be sent to those residents by Revenue Canada as expediently as possible.

I also should point out that in some cases people with very high incomes would probably under the rules which exist have to pay more taxes in the last two years than they actually paid. We have agreed in that convention that no one, no Canadian will pay more than the U.S. government taxed them in the first place. No Canadian will pay more than they have already paid. Many Canadians will get a refund and will be better off. Those will primarily be low income Canadians. Not just seniors as was pointed out earlier, but also the disabled who have benefits coming from the U.S. and spouses who receive benefits from the United States will receive tax refunds as well. There are many avenues by which these benefits will be calculated and paid back.

When we really look at it, we have taken a tax law which in many ways may have been a loophole whereby some people were not paying anywhere near what others were paying in the tax system and with Bill C-10 we are bringing people to a fairness where all Canadians will be paying approximately the same in taxation. All Canadians will be treated fairly rather than unfairly. In the future no Canadians will be allowed to be overtaxed by a government not in this country. That is a really important issue. The Canadian government is taking back control of taxation for Canadians. That is another extremely important point that everyone should realize.

I have received several telephone calls from people about the tax rule. I had friends come to me and say that the tax agreement that has been struck with the United States is unfair. After talking with them about the unfairness of the tax agreement which was put in place in 1996, they all said the reason it was unfair is that it is taxing them in a disproportionate way to everybody else and it had to be corrected. It was mentioned earlier that there are large lobby groups that are very upset that Canadians were being treated unfairly by the U.S. government. Bill C-10 corrects that.

The faster we can get Bill C-10 passed through the House and the Canadian Senate and through the U.S. Senate, the quicker we can get fairness for all Canadians.

Income Tax Conventions Implementation Act, 1997Government Orders

3:50 p.m.

Reform

Rob Anders Reform Calgary West, AB

Mr. Speaker, I noticed that there is a competition going on here in terms of the word fairness and the word equitable.

When we take a reporting of income from 50%, jack it up to 85% and somehow call that fair, I do not see the fairness in that. The Liberals are going after the elderly in this bill. They are taxing people who have the least ability to pay. These people cannot go back into the workforce. They have retired based on the understanding that they are only going to have to report 50% of what they bring in through their social security cheques. This government has gone ahead and jacked it up by 70% and Liberal members sit their with smug smiles on their faces trying to justify this. How can they justify it?

Income Tax Conventions Implementation Act, 1997Government Orders

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

Jerry Pickard Liberal Kent—Essex, ON

Mr. Speaker, I am really surprised that a member of the Reform Party would stand and say that because a person has worked in a factory in Detroit they should pay less money than if they worked in a factory in Windsor. I am astonished at his viewpoint.

Fairness in taxation should be fairness for all Canadians, not a few. When we are talking about fairness in taxation there is absolutely no question that if we only charge taxes on 50% of the income, those folks who are only paying the tax on 50% of their income are being taxed less than every other Canadian. There is no logical reason for that to happen here in this country. When we talk about fairness it is not that we have changed the rate. Fairness is that all Canadians whether they earn their income in the United States, Great Britain, Canada or Germany, should pay their Canadian taxes in some equal and fair fashion.

The Reform Party is suggesting because we are putting up somebody's taxes a slight amount that it is not fair. That is incorrect. They did have a tremendous extra benefit that made no sense in Canada. We gave all of those folks who earned their income in the United States and came back to Canada their health care, medical care, the social benefits that they receive in Canada and at the same time we are asking them to pay approximately the same amount of taxes as all other Canadians.

I do not understand why the Reform Party would suggest that some Canadians pay less taxes than others on the same income. That is unfair.

Income Tax Conventions Implementation Act, 1997Government Orders

3:55 p.m.

Reform

Rob Anders Reform Calgary West, AB

Mr. Speaker, somehow I knew the Liberals would justify a tax increase because that is the Liberal way of doing business in this country. They bellyache about how they think this is fair. They think that charging people or having them declare 85% of this is fair.

Is it fair that these people are going to lose thousands of dollars of their income when they do not earn very much yet members across the way collect millions of dollars in their gold plated MP pension plans? Brian Tobin alone, the current premier of Newfoundland and a former minister of fisheries, is collecting $3.4 million as we speak. The premier of Newfoundland along with the actions of the highest pay for a premier in any province in this country is making over $200,000 a year in aggregate. How can they possibly justify this, all of them smug with their MP pensions? Why should these people be suffering the blows to the tune of thousands of dollars while they all collect their super rich pensions?

Income Tax Conventions Implementation Act, 1997Government Orders

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

Jerry Pickard Liberal Kent—Essex, ON

Mr. Speaker, it is interesting how the Reform Party member turns away from the real point when the issue gets a little straightforward and a little tough to deal with.

Does the member feel it is important that some Canadians get taxed at lower rates than other Canadians? Does he feel that it is fair that somebody, and we are talking of low income Canadians, works and receives social benefits in Canada at $10,000? The Liberal Party believes that one should be taxed the same as somebody who worked outside Canada and comes into Canada.

I believe that taxation should be fair and equal for equal incomes. I believe that we should make certain that this issue is not an issue of inappropriate change. It is an issue of bringing fairness to the system where some folks are taxed at very close to the same rate as other Canadians.

We are not talking about low income or high income. Low income Canadians under this bill will be the ones who pay no tax. Middle income Canadians will pay less than they paid before. The point is that all Canadians should pay approximately the same tax rate. There is no question but that Reform members missed that.

I wonder if they go back to their constituents and say “I argued the point that if John had a job in the United States he pays less tax than you, my neighbour next door”. Are you telling your neighbours next door that? If you are, listen to their answers.

The Reform Party is saying it wishes to tax Canadians who work outside Canada at a lower rate than those who work in Canada. I think that is wrong.

Income Tax Conventions Implementation Act, 1997Government Orders

4 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland)

I remind everyone we should address each other through the Chair and that we should not refer to other members in the House by their names.

Income Tax Conventions Implementation Act, 1997Government Orders

4 p.m.

Reform

Rob Anders Reform Calgary West, AB

Mr. Speaker, it is interesting to hear the Liberals talk about fair taxation. They bellyache over the idea of people paying different levels of tax in order to justify raising taxes. By that same logic would the Liberals take people who pay 17% and 22% in federal taxes and raise it to 29% to match those who pay the highest level of progressive income tax because that is fair, because there are different levels of taxation?

If they bellyache about differing levels of taxation will they come clean and support a flat tax for income taxes like the Reform party has been advocating for everybody?

Income Tax Conventions Implementation Act, 1997Government Orders

4 p.m.

Liberal

Jerry Pickard Liberal Kent—Essex, ON

A fair tax is our policy. There are good reasons to believe that we have a system in place that has been very productive and has provided Canadians with a pretty good standard of living.

We move away from the point of looking at how taxes work. Taxes are paid but Canadians benefit greatly from the taxes we pay. Look at the seniors benefit, at the OAS benefits, at all the benefits we provide. We make certain that those tax dollars are spent wisely.

After seeing what it is like in other countries, I know in Canada we have the highest standard of living in the world. We have a good record of defending the weak, helping the sick, defending the poor, helping the seniors, helping the disabled. We have been world leaders in social policy. You cannot deny that, nor can anyone else.

Year after year the United Nations has pointed to Canada as being the best country in the world. All that comes about because of the policies that are put in place by governments in this country. We have run the country extremely well. When you can tell me any country that is better off than Canada, then you can preach the way you are. But until you can tell me a country that is better off than this country, I do not buy your argument.

Income Tax Conventions Implementation Act, 1997Government Orders

4 p.m.

Liberal

Brent St. Denis Liberal Algoma—Manitoulin, ON

Mr. Speaker, it is a privilege for me to join the debate, especially after listening to the comments of my colleague, the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Public Works. As usual he is correct in what he says. He makes it easier for me to pursue this subject.

Bill C-10 is another example of the government's caring about Canadians, not only for our young people and future generations but for Canadian taxpayers who are out working every day, paying taxes and supporting a country that is unquestionably the best country in the world. According to recent new reports, Canada is also the best country in the world in which to invest.

A government which puts people first is a government that will ultimately provide Canadians with the services they deserve in exchange for the payment of taxes, which at all times taxpayers begrudge. However, when the services are good and when government leadership is good they will accept paying taxes in the knowledge that they are contributing to ensuring the safety of our social safety net for the future, our pension system, our employment insurance system and our health system.

Bill C-10 is an example of the government continuing to be a caring government. When the amendment to the treaty was passed a couple of years ago it is acknowledged that there was an oversight or a mistake. I had a number of constituents who were adversely affected by the measure which allowed their U.S. pension income to be taxed at source, but did not provide them with any means to get a deduction through the tax system because they could not file in the U.S.

One of my colleagues from Windsor said earlier that the Liberal MPs in the Windsor area got together and talked to the finance minister. I applaud their efforts in bringing this issue to his attention. For my part, I also brought the matter to the attention of the finance minister, as I expect did many Liberal members. Being the kind of finance minister he is, being the kind of government that we have, the response was “Let us acknowledge that we have a difficulty here. Let us do something about it”. This is an example of a government which listens. This government cares about the people it serves.

Even though, in terms of numbers, there may only be a few thousand Canadians who are adversely affected, it does not matter that there are only a few thousand. There could be a million or there could be ten. The problem is that these seniors have been adversely affected and if as a government we can do something about it, that is what we have set out to do.

I applaud the efforts of the finance minister in responding to the appeals from his colleagues on this side of the House to do something about the oversight. Canadians can expect that the government will listen to them in future sessions of this Parliament and hopefully beyond.

In recognition of the oversight, the new rules provide for the change to be retroactive to January 1996, so that no one who found themselves caught in this unfortunate trap will at the end of the day pay a penalty. In fact, I understand that Revenue Canada will make every effort to automatically correct this problem for Canadians who have been adversely affected.

Let me use this opportunity to say a bit more about why the government is caring and why it has taken the measure which it has in Bill C-10.

Not so long ago we had the Speech from the Throne. It contained numerous initiatives which, as we head into the next millennium, indicate nothing else but that we want all citizens to benefit from the turning tide, from the growing economy and from the social safety net which past governments and all Canadians have worked so hard over the decades to create. It is in getting the financial matters on a strong footing that we can most effectively take measures to protect valuable programs, such as the health care system, the pension system and the employment insurance system.

Let me speak for a moment about the health care system because it is the very client group, the very citizens who have been helped through this protocol in Bill C-10. In most cases this group has been worried about the health care system. I believe they can find in the leadership of the government, the health minister and the Prime Minister the very best of intentions, the very best of plans to ensure that the health care system continues to be the finest in the world.

I had the chance to visit an Asian country a couple of years ago. While there I discovered that as its economy was growing, its citizens came to a point where they wanted to institute a national health plan. They looked to Canada's plan and implemented a health care system for their country that is modelled after Canada's.

Even though we have our detractors, mostly those from south of the border who do not want to see the U.S. move into a national universal health care system, when they really get down to it these detractors have to admit that the system in Canada costs less per capita on the basis of a percentage of GDP than the U.S. system and covers everybody from coast to coast.

It is a system that Canadians have come to value. They may even take it for granted. It is wonderful that you can take for granted a system that will take care of you and a system that does not require that you pull out your Visa card or chequebook when you go to the doctor or to the hospital. The very citizens who were adversely affected initially by this protocol will now be favourably impacted by Bill C-10. We want to get the message to them that they should not be worried about the health care system.

Yes, changes are taking place at the provincial level. Provinces are for their own and different reasons taking measures to rationalize the health care system and its delivery in their provinces. I believe there is a universal commitment from coast to coast to maintain the five principles even though there may be some debate between the federal government and certain provinces from time to time on the interpretation of those principles. Very few Canadians would want us to step back to decades past with one system for the rich and another for everybody else.

As an extension of the concept of a caring government taking this initiative with Bill C-10, I take as an example the pharmacare system we talked about in the campaign. I grant this is not something that will happen overnight. Maybe it will take five or ten years, maybe longer, to implement a national pharmacare system. If we do not start talking about it now we will never get there. A national drug plan, a plan which would provide all Canadians with equal access to medically necessary drugs is a plan that is typically Canadian, a plan that reflects the values of sharing our wealth and of sharing our vision for a country that cares about its individual citizens.

Along with the pharmacare plan I know there have been some discussions about a universal home care plan. I see it as simply a mechanism to allow our health care system to extend into our neighbourhoods and into the homes of Canadians. That too is a logical extension of the kind of thinking we see from this government consistently.

In my riding of Algoma—Manitoulin in northern Ontario, which is quite a large, beautiful Great Lakes riding, I have about 18 First Nations communities. Very few Canadians would disagree that our First Nations add so much to the culture of our society. At the same time there needs to be a change in the relationship between the federal government and our First Nations which would allow our First Nations to more readily achieve their full potential.

What we heard in the throne speech and what is exemplified by Bill C-10 is the willingness to work with first nations so they can benefit, using their own leadership and their own resources in partnership with the federal government and with the province where appropriate, as can all Canadian communities from the vast riches of the nation.

As we approach the next millennium no Canadian will be left totally behind. We want a society where perhaps there are some who are richer than others but the gap is not a widening gap but a narrowing one. No Canadian will ever complain about being left behind due to illiteracy, health problems or the fact that they live in one area of the country or another.

Even though some critics have said that we have been too focused on deficit reduction, those critics are few and far between. Last Friday a constituent, a leader of a community on Manitoulin Island with its own challenges that is doing very well, who might have had reason to say otherwise told me very sincerely that the government and finance minister were doing a terrific job with the deficit.

They started with fundamentals such as managing their own books the way they would want their own family books to be kept. That starts a domino effect that can do nothing but favourably impact on all other segments of society.

In getting our deficit under control and balancing the books as we will in the next year or so, the government is not out there competing for borrowings with the private sector, which helps keep interest rates down. If there is any better economic development tool than low interest rates, I challenge my colleagues opposite to tell me.

Most of us remember the days of high inflation and high interest rates not only in our country but around the world. Nobody would ever choose to go back to those times. The combination of low interest rates and low inflation has provided an environment of confidence that I have not felt for a long time. I appreciate the opportunity to be part of a government that has a vision, a plan and the will to carry out its agenda.

In 20 minutes it is difficult to say all the things we want to say, but I will pick out the most important ones as I go along. As I listened to some of my opposition colleagues, particularly those in the Reform Party, I heard them use Bill C-10 as a vehicle to talk about their alleged grief over the CPP and Bill C-2. They are rolling that issue under the umbrella of Bill C-10. They have had ample opportunity to say their piece about very necessary changes to the CPP Canadians want us to make but they repeatedly talk about a tax grab.

As I have said earlier, when workers put money toward their CPP and the employer does likewise, it is an investment in a plan that is the envy of industrialized nations around the world. We are one of the few industrialized nations that has taken hold of the pension problem and has taken steps to correct it.

We heard much particularly from the official opposition, the Reform Party, about this 9% plus rate. It will not acknowledge that a private super RRSP plan may require 13% to 15% contributions by Canadian workers without the necessary protection we need for workers who become disabled.

Many constituents have come to see me because they look toward the Canada pension disability program to assist them at a time of great need because of a heart attack or some other medical condition that has rendered them unable to work.

When we put all this together it states that the government cares about the people who have worked so hard to build the country: seniors and the people of my generation and the generations after who will take the baton and continue to build the country. No country anywhere should stop its effort to build. This country is no different. We must continue to contribute in whatever fashion we can to make the country stronger and stronger.

The actions of the government clearly are actions that will make the country stronger. If we have to put up with a bit of criticism along the way, it comes with the territory. It comes with being responsible for governing the country. If it were not for our willingness to take up that challenge and make some tough decisions from time to time, the country would be in a very sorry state.

As I attempt to wind up, let me reiterate the people we are attempting to assist through Bill C-10 are our neighbours, our grandparents and our parents. These people got caught inadvertently in a trap. Our colleagues across the way can look to the government and honestly admit that it has listened.

It is not the first time and it certainly will not be the last time. It is incumbent upon us as a government to continue to listen to the people. My colleagues are regularly in their ridings listening to their constituents either in travelling office hours like I do or at town hall meetings. By that process we know what people are saying. I know my colleagues' doors are always open to their constituents as are the doors to my riding office and to the travelling office I maintain on a regular basis.

The citizens of the Algoma—Manitoulin riding are looking to the government to continue its leadership. I certainly get complaints from time to time which are justified. No government is perfect. I would be the last one ever to say that. I can say with honesty that there is no alternative for the country at this time than the kind of government we are capable of offering to the people. I am proud to be part of the government.

Income Tax Conventions Implementation Act, 1997Government Orders

4:20 p.m.

Reform

Rob Anders Reform Calgary West, AB

Mr. Speaker, we are talking today about increasing the taxes to be paid by people who receive social security from the United States. The government is perfectly willing, as it pointed out today, to tax people who have worked outside the country at some point in their lives.

I just want to see if I can get a commitment from the government. Is it willing to commit that it will never increase taxes on those people who solely collect the CPP or other programs in Canada?

I would like to get that in Hansard today. In that way, if the government does it in the future, we can point to the record and say that it did not tell the whole truth on that one too.