House of Commons Hansard #16 of the 36th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was taxes.

Topics

Income Tax Conventions Implementation Act, 1997Government Orders

5:10 p.m.

Reform

Rob Anders Reform Calgary West, AB

Mr. Speaker, I wonder how much longer the not so Conservatives think they can both suck and blow on the issue of taxes.

On one hand, they sometimes say that they are not in favour of a tax hike. On the other hand they want to get the money. I have heard this continually, whether it was a meeting of their leader along with other Progressive Conservatives leaders in Atlantic Canada talking about how they wanted more money as well.

I think we have to come to a firm determination that they are either opposed to taxes or they are in favour of taxes. They cannot suck and blow at the same time. You cannot ask for programs but then say you do not like taxes. Where do they stand on this?

Income Tax Conventions Implementation Act, 1997Government Orders

October 20th, 1997 / 5:10 p.m.

Progressive Conservative

Rick Borotsik Progressive Conservative Brandon—Souris, MB

Mr. Speaker, the Conservative Party has always been a conservative party and will always be a conservative party. Certainly it is recognized by a great number of people in this country as being a national alternative as opposed to a regional party.

The Conservative Party realizes that there are inefficiencies within government. Those inefficiencies could be cut and save dollars in certain areas. Perhaps things like fences around Stornoway need not be developed. Those dollars could go into areas such as health care and education.

Bill C-10 speaks to an inordinate amount of taxation to the wrong sector of our society. We will continue to oppose any types of tax increases of this nature. In fact, we have suggested quite frequently that tax decreases are the way the government should be heading. We should be giving dollars back into the pockets of those people who pay.

We are in favour of decreases in taxes. We believe in efficiencies. I am sure there are other parties in the House who do not believe in the same efficiencies as is proven by some extravagant expenditures in the past. I am sure that some of those dollars could be put into the programs that Canadians really want: health care and education.

Income Tax Conventions Implementation Act, 1997Government Orders

5:10 p.m.

Liberal

Roy Cullen Liberal Etobicoke North, ON

Mr. Speaker, I am very pleased to join the debate of Bill C-10.

This bill will benefit all Canadians by amending double taxation treaties between Canada and a number of countries. These nations are the United States, Sweden, Lithuania, Kazakhstan, Iceland, Denmark and the Netherlands.

I am particularly pleased to see the amendments to the tax treaty with the United States. We often hear, sometimes in a not very complimentary way, about the role of backbenchers in the government caucus. This agreement responds to the concerns of many members of Parliament who were concerned that many of their residents were paying double taxation on U.S. social security benefits.

Many people in Canada live near the border with the United States and many of these individuals have lived and worked in the United States and then retired in Canada. Many of them are in my riding of Etobicoke North. Over the last while I have had a number of constituents complain that they were being taxed doubly on their social security benefits.

A number of my colleagues and I went to the Minister of Finance. We stated, in a very strong way, that this was not fair. People should not be taxed doubly, particularly low income seniors who were being jeopardized as a result. The finance minister listened. It is because of that we have the amendments to the taxation agreement with the United States.

This area can be a very dry topic. I would like, for the record, to present what the bill does from the government's side. It is important for Canadians who are watching this debate to appreciate what the legislation does and what it does not do. Paying taxes twice on the same income or gain is not very fair. That is why these initiatives will avoid double taxation.

The treaties essentially reduce the rates of withholding taxes applicable to dividends, interest and royalties, and eliminate double taxation by allocating taxation rights between the country in which a taxpayer is resident and the source country of the income or gain. For example, where income or gains remain taxable in both states a convention would normally provide that the state of residence will give credit for the tax paid in the other country.

Other ways to eliminate double taxation would consist of ensuring that the income or gain is taxed only in the source country or the country of residence. This serves to promote trade and investment which, in the absence of a treaty, could be discouraged by the possibility that returns would be taxed twice.

As well the conventions generally include provisions for the exchange of information between revenue authorities to prevent tax avoidance or tax evasion.

Canada now has double taxation conventions in force with 61 countries. While the provisions of each treaty necessarily vary from one country to another, their common denominator is that they benefit Canadian taxpayers.

The Canada-United States double taxation agreement is a case in point. This is the fourth protocol to the convention between Canada and the U.S. with respect to taxes on income and on capital, commonly known as the Canada-U.S. tax treaty.

With the approval of parliament and the ratification of the United States senate the protocol to the convention will deliver significant tax relief to thousands of lower income Canadians who receive U.S. social security benefits which are subject to U.S. tax rates.

Most Canadians and many Americans reside within 80 miles of the 49th parallel. Many have worked in one country and as I said retired in the other. Consequently both Canada and the United States pay social security benefits to large numbers of people in the other country.

To avoid double taxation the Canada-United States tax treaty sets out which country can tax these benefits. Currently the country that pays the benefit can tax all of it while a country where the recipient lives can tax none of it. This results in hardship for many lower income Canadians who receive U.S. social security benefits because the United States taxes outbound social security benefits at a flat withholding rate of 25.5%. This is what constituents came to me and spoke about, this withholding tax of 25.5% which was very high and very unjust.

Conversely outbound Canada and Quebec pension plans and old age security benefits are taxed at a rate of 25%. While the old age security recovery rate applies, any non-resident pensioner can file a Canadian tax return at ordinary Canadian tax. As a result many low income U.S. recipients pay little or no Canadian tax on their Canadian benefits. I would add that other than U.S. citizens and resident aliens the U.S. does not allow non-resident pensioners to file tax returns.

The protocol proposes that the country of residence have the exclusive right to tax social security benefits. That means several thousand low income Canadians will no longer pay any income tax at all. Thousands more will pay less tax than they do now, particularly in light of special rules exempting from tax 15% of U.S. benefits paid to residents of Canada. For U.S. recipients of Canadian benefits, Canadian benefits that are exempt from tax in Canada will also be exempt in the United States.

Prior to 1996 the country that paid a benefit to a resident of the other country could not tax the benefits at all. The country where the recipient lived could include only one-half the benefit in the recipient's taxable income. That meant that one-half of the benefits were tax free. It also meant that those rules did not stand the test of tax equity with neighbours receiving similar levels of benefits but paying vastly different levels of taxes on those benefits.

Under this agreement with the United States the new rule would apply as of January 1, 1996, the date the current rule came into effect. Excess tax collected since then would be refunded to social security recipients in both countries. However there will be no retroactive tax increases for that period.

The government will limit applicable 1996 and 1997 taxes for Canadian residents to ensure that they do not exceed the tax the U.S. collected. For 1998 and beyond the Canadian tax that recipients pay will reflect their total incomes. After ratification both nations will work together to ensure that refunds can be paid out as quickly and efficiently as possible.

A second proposed amendment to the Canada-U.S. tax treaty pertains to the taxation of capital gains. In 1995 Canada proposed to amend the Income Tax Act to tax the gains of non-residents on shares of non-resident corporations and interest in non-resident trusts where most of the value of the shares or interest is attributable to Canadian real estate or resource property. Although it has not yet done so, the United States could under current tax treaty rules impose a comparable tax on residents of Canada.

In a classic quid pro quo the protocol will apply the proposed tax change to United States residents in exchange for United States agreement that its real property interest laws will not for residents of Canada include shares of corporations that are not resident in the United States.

This change which will apply as of April 26, 1995 means that Canadians who invest in U.S. real estate through Canadian companies will continue to pay Canadian tax rather than any possible future U.S. tax when they sell their shares. U.S. investors and U.S. companies that hold property in Canada will still pay U.S. tax when they sell their shares rather than Canadian tax.

Turning to the Canada-Sweden tax treaty, in the bill we propose a small number of amendments to the double taxation and the convention that has existed between Canada and that country since 1984. However while the number of amendments is small the benefits are very real. Taxpayers will pay less taxes as a result of reduced tax rates, which will also result in increased trade and investment between our two countries. The revised convention will enter into force when both Canada and Sweden have approved the amendments and exchanged instruments of ratification. The provisions would then apply on the first day of January subsequent to the exchange.

With respect to Lithuania, Bill C-10 seeks parliament's approval to enter into a tax treaty with that country. As there is currently no double taxation convention in force between Canada and Lithuania, there are a number of double taxation problems for which the proposed convention provides needed and equitable solutions.

The proposed convention does not reinvent the wheel. Rather it generally follows the language and the pattern of other tax treaties Canada has concluded. It also largely reflects the format and language of the model convention prepared by the OECD.

Of more interest than structure are results. In that regard the provisions of the convention will produce results, reduced tax rates leading to increased trade and investment that will mirror those of other concluded conventions and will help to promote economic development in both nations, in particular in Lithuania.

Concerning Kazakhstan, tax relations between Canada and that nation had been governed by the 1986 tax treaty between Canada and the U.S.S.R. However, as of January 1, 1996 Kazakhstan ceased to apply that treaty. Accordingly Bill C-10 seeks parliamentary approval to enter into a tax treaty with Kazakhstan. Again the proposed treaty generally follows the language and pattern of tax treaties already concluded by Canada.

Trade and investment between Canada and Kazakhstan are expected to increase upon the conclusion of the convention which will enter into force on the date of the exchange of the instruments of ratification. Its provisions will apply on or after the first day of January 1996.

The proposed double taxation convention between Canada and Iceland is also a new tax treaty but contains somewhat similar provisions to those I have addressed. For example, it provides for a reduced withholding tax of 5% applicable to dividends paid to a company that controls at least 10% of the voting power in the company paying the dividends and a rate of 15% in all other cases. The rate of the branch tax will also be reduced to 5%.

Entry into force will entail each country first notifying the other that the procedure required to bring the convention into force, the attainment of royal assent in Canada, has been completed. The convention will then enter into force 30 days after the date of the latter of these notifications. The provisions will apply on or after the first day of January subsequent to the entry into force.

The penultimate country included in the legislation is Denmark. A double taxation convention is currently in force between Canada and Denmark. First signed in 1955 and amended in 1964, it is now appropriate the convention referred to as the 1955 convention be amended further to increase trade and investment opportunities between Canada and Denmark. To those ends the current withholding tax rate of 15% on dividends, interest and royalties will be reduced to 5% on direct dividends and to 10% on interest and on royalties. The rate of the branch tax will also be reduced from the existing 15% to 5%. The revised convention also provides for a number of exemptions at source, which I will not go into today.

With respect to pensions, currently all pensions are taxable only in the country of residence of the recipient. The revised convention provides for the opposite. Specifically all pensions including social security pensions will be taxable only in the source country. Moreover, the two year exemption provided under the existing convention for visiting teachers will be eliminated.

The 1955 convention also does not contain any rules for the taxation of capital gains. As a result they are taxable in accordance with each country's respective legislation. Accordingly and in line with rules found in other tax treaties concluded by Canada, the revised convention includes rules for the taxation of capital gains.

With respect to Canada and the Netherlands, which is the last country but certainly not the least that I will be speaking on today, the legislation proposes amendments to the existing convention between Canada and the Netherlands.

The 1993 budget announced Canada's willingness to eliminate on a bilateral basis its withholding tax on royalties on computer software and patent and information concerning industrial, commercial or scientific experience.

Consistent with that statement, the protocol provides that the rate of 10% withholding tax on such royalties in the country of source will be eliminated or remain at zero in the case of computer software, which was already covered in the protocol signed in 1993.

The protocol also introduces a new article in the convention providing for mutual assistance in the collection of taxes in each country. Patterned on the corresponding article found in the Canada-United States tax treaty, it differs only in that it applies regardless of the nationality of the person concerned.

There are other modifications to the convention as well. This protocol will enter into force 30 days after the date on which the governments notify each other that ratification has been completed. Its provisions will then apply in Canada from the date of entry into force of the protocol.

As I have spoken for some time I will keep my concluding remarks brief. I appreciate that for some the matter of international tax treaties may seem arcane, complex and dry. However, that being said, they are extremely important and they have real and direct financial impacts on Canadian taxpayers. I know the legislation will positively affect the taxpayers of my riding.

Clearly my address articulated that in the instance of Bill C-10 its impact on Canadian taxpayers will be overwhelmingly beneficial. As such, I very much urge members of the House to accord speedy passage of the legislation so that those benefits may be realized sooner rather than later.

Income Tax Conventions Implementation Act, 1997Government Orders

5:25 p.m.

Reform

Jim Abbott Reform Kootenay—Columbia, BC

Mr. Speaker, I will surprise the hon. member for Etobicoke North by telling him that I agree with him in the area of people coming into our constituency offices.

I recall very vividly a couple of years ago very low income people coming into our offices, many of whom for whatever reason were deriving a major portion of their income, meagre as it was, from the United States. All of a sudden, unannounced, out of the clear blue sky, their income was decreased in some instances by a few dollars and in other instances by $100. When a person is in as low income bracket as many of these people were, $100 is an awful lot of money.

I also agree with him that amendments to the regulations in 1996 created a situation where the taxes relative to the income were very high and very unjust. I ask the member if this is not an indictment of the finance minister. Is this not an indictment of his government?

He stands and says that the Liberal backbenchers went to work and made something happen here. Indeed the finance and revenue departments will have letters on file not only from my office but from members from all over this House about this issue. The movement under the finance minister was a bad move.

Is the member not really saying with his speech that yes they were very high and they were very unjust and the people were being treated unfairly, but the Liberal government of the 35th Parliament that brought this in did a very bone-headed move and actually created a serious problem for many low income seniors in our country?

Income Tax Conventions Implementation Act, 1997Government Orders

5:30 p.m.

Liberal

Roy Cullen Liberal Etobicoke North, ON

Mr. Speaker, I thank the member for two out of three of his comments and for his remarks.

The Minister of Finance is like any other individual or government and from time to time it takes some courage for a person to say that maybe we need to move in a slightly different direction. Rather than being an indictment of the Minister of Finance, I think this is a clear statement that our Minister of Finance in fairness listens not only to members of his caucus but to members opposite. I am sure he received a number of representations from members opposite.

As a result of some work within our own caucus and other representations, the minister has made some adjustments. As the member noted, they will be very beneficial to the vast majority of Canadians who are in this position, particularly low income Canadians. I see it as a very positive step where we can move forward. I applaud the Minister of Finance for having the courage to move in this direction.

Income Tax Conventions Implementation Act, 1997Government Orders

5:30 p.m.

Reform

Rob Anders Reform Calgary West, AB

Mr. Speaker, I would like the Liberal member opposite to turn his frame of mind if he would to those people who are being affected by this.

Imagine that in a sense he had retired based on the 50% rate of inclusion, that he had planned his retirement based on that understanding and then all of a sudden, watch out, here comes the Liberal government with a tax hike that is going to move that up to 85%, a 70% increase. Would he feel somewhat similar to all those taxpayers who were surprised by the breaking of the GST election promise? Would he feel wronged in the same way as the people who felt wronged about the GST and in the same way that retired people who are receiving social security from the United States feel wronged about it jumping to 85% from 50%?

Income Tax Conventions Implementation Act, 1997Government Orders

5:30 p.m.

Liberal

Roy Cullen Liberal Etobicoke North, ON

Mr. Speaker, I thank the member opposite for the question.

The 50% inclusion rate is an issue that has been raised a number of times in this House. What we need to look at in tax policy are movements that result in the greatest tax equity. We cannot have everybody coming out in a net-net-plus position.

The difficulty with this change is that if we had not made these changes in concert with the changes in the tax treaty, some people would have received a huge windfall gain. That would not have been equitable to those Canadians who are not subject to the same rules who are receiving Canada pension funds. We would have created an uneven playing field so we had to make the adjustment at the same time.

I am pleased to say that this tax treaty and the moves that are made within it will benefit the vast majority of Canadians. In particular, low income seniors will benefit.

While I agree with the member's comment that we need to provide some kind of stability in terms of tax planning, unfortunately the world is not perfect and we have to deal with the world as it is. The minister has made some very positive changes here that we should all be thankful for.

Income Tax Conventions Implementation Act, 1997Government Orders

5:30 p.m.

Bloc

Pierre De Savoye Bloc Portneuf, QC

Mr. Speaker, it will be recalled that, some 20 months ago, our colleague François Langlois, the Bloc Quebecois member for Bellechasse at the time, raised the problem of pensioners in receipt of pensions from the United States who were being taxed disproportionately by the Americans.

These people were therefore seeing their meager pension incomes being made even more meager. Mr. Langlois made vigorous representations in this House at the time to have the situation remedied.

I would like to see our colleague from across the way explain to us if, indeed, this legislation before us now will ensure these people, particularly those living just on our side of the U.S. border—so we are speaking of the southern portions of Bellechasse, of Beauce and of the Eastern Townships—of pensions that will be taxed reasonably rather than unreasonably.

I await the answer of our colleague across the way.

Income Tax Conventions Implementation Act, 1997Government Orders

5:35 p.m.

Liberal

Roy Cullen Liberal Etobicoke North, ON

Mr. Speaker, I must thank my Bloc Quebecois colleague for his comment.

This tax treaty and the amendments to the tax treaty really deal very specifically with the concern many members in this House have had, including members from parties opposite. It will allow Canadians a withholding tax of 25.5% on their social security benefits because they had lived and worked in the United States but who are now retired in Canada. Perhaps they are from the member's riding of Bellechasse or from places close to the U.S. border in the province of Quebec. I am sure people there are affected as well.

This will be extremely beneficial. I would not want to leave the impression that other members opposite did not have similar concerns. It is one advantage in being the government of the day. If people elect members who are part of the government, they have a chance to speak very directly to members of our own caucus. In that sense, I suppose all members had a role to play but I think the Minister of Finance is to be commended on a very progressive move.

Income Tax Conventions Implementation Act, 1997Government Orders

5:35 p.m.

Reform

Jim Abbott Reform Kootenay—Columbia, BC

Mr. Speaker, is the member saying that we should be thankful that the finance minister having seen the error of his ways has decided to make a revision? Bearing in mind that the very low income people we are talking about did not know this was going to be happening, are we supposed to be thankful? Or should we not be critical of the finance minister by virtue of the fact that he is doing the legislation retroactively? Why in 1997 when the 35th Parliament was sitting, did the finance minister not come forward and give these people a little relief?

Income Tax Conventions Implementation Act, 1997Government Orders

5:35 p.m.

Liberal

Roy Cullen Liberal Etobicoke North, ON

Mr. Speaker, having been elected in 1996 I was only a member of the last Parliament for a very short period but I certainly would not use that as a cop-out.

I see it the opposite way. Perhaps this is what differentiates Reform members from Liberal members. I see the glass as half full not half empty. I see some courage in members of our caucus saying that we have to make changes so that we can move forward to the benefit of all Canadians.

Income Tax Conventions Implementation Act, 1997Government Orders

5:35 p.m.

Reform

Rob Anders Reform Calgary West, AB

Mr. Speaker, once again we continue on the saga of Bill C-10, the Liberal tax hike on those people who receive social security benefits from the United States.

I would like to read portions of a letter from Olive E. Smith, one of those seniors who will be particularly hard done by in terms of the changes with Bill C-10 and all the others who are involved with Canadians asking for social security equality. She says that because of the raise in inclusion the Liberals are hoisting upon her, it will result in a whopping 70% increase from what she was paying previously. She begs me here. She says “Stand up to this Liberal tax grab and persuade the finance minister that this is neither fair nor moral”. On her behalf and on behalf of others who are involved with Canadians asking for social security equality, I am going to do that.

First, these are people who cannot go back to work. They cannot make up this shortfall any other way. These are people who planned for their retirement at a 50% rate of inclusion and the government wants to jack it up to 85% so it can get its precious tax dollars to spend on its precious programs and it is doing it on the backs of these people. The government should be ashamed.

I would also like to talk about how many people this affects. Eight five thousand Canadian residents receive U.S. social security. It actually affects about 100,000 people when we take into account those across the border and all the intricacies of the plan. This affects a lot of people. It is not even a question of numbers. If it affected 10,000 people or a million people, the thing is that it is just plain wrong to go ahead and hike the taxes of these people who can little afford it.

Imagine losing 25.5% of your total income when you have already barely been surviving and have been forced to move if you are old, sick or handicapped. These Liberals gloat about how they have been able to cut down the deficit but they have done it with 36 tax increases. Bill C-2, the CPP tax hike which will bring in $10 billion, was their 37th tax increase. This is their 38th tax increase and it is being done on the backs of seniors.

What are they going to do about those people who will choose to leave this country rather than live under conditions like that? What about the job spin-off as a result? They do not express any concern about that.

I would also like to look at their initial reaction when this whole issue first reared its ugly head, when they passed a bad law. And now they are coming before the House to try and rectify it. Indeed it is not a rectification. Two wrongs do not make a right. If there is a screw up in the first place and the Liberals then come back to the House to beg for a tax increase, they are not improving the situation at all. That is exactly what the Liberals across the way are doing.

The Liberals' first reaction when seniors told them how this would impact on them was they said that the seniors did not understand the changes. This from local MPs in the ridings particularly affected, those surrounding Windsor. They said they did not understand.

The second knee-jerk reaction on behalf of the Liberals was to blame the Americans. The third was to blame the previous government and say that it was Brian Mulroney and the Conservatives who had done them harm. Fourth, we hear today that they are blaming the seniors and how these people are getting some sort of unequal treatment and they have to be taxed the same as everyone else and pay more.

That is the way it went. First the Liberals did not know what they had done. Then they blamed the Americans. Then they blamed the previous government. And now they are blaming the seniors.

I would also like to quote the Minister of Finance. In his letter he says, “I can understand that some recipients are not in favour of the new arrangement since it means that after 1997 they may have to pay more tax than they have in the past. I believe that it will ensure that the tax system treats everyone fairly.” He admits that it is a tax increase and then he has the gall to go on and say that it is fair.

By that logic the Liberals would say that the people who are paying 17% or 22% federal income tax should all be paying the top progressive rate of 29% because that is fair, there cannot be different rates of taxation. That is Liberal fairness, Liberal tax equity. That is a joke but unfortunately the seniors who are being hurt the most by this are not the ones who are laughing. It is the Liberal MPs across the way who are collecting their gold plated pensions. It is a back door tax grab.

The Liberals talked about how in 1995 they had to make changes and now in 1997 because they did not think it through very well the first time, they are coming back begging the indulgence of the House to give this an easy passage the second time around. I reiterate, two wrongs do not make a right. If they messed it up the first time and have the gall to come back the second time to the House and say they have something better but they are sneaking in a tax hike through the back door, that does not make it right.

What about those who fall through the cracks? What about those people? The Liberals talk about refunds because they recognize they have really gouged these people heavily. What about those people who have died? What about those people who have moved? As a result of those two incidents, either death or moving, those people will fall through the cracks and those rebates that are owed them, their families and their estates will not be paid. The government will keep that. We can bet our bottom dollar on that and the finance minister will gloat in this House over the results on something like that.

When the government first brought through its changes it resulted in roughly $2,000 in increases and now this time around it is probably average out around $1,000 in increases and it calls that revenue neutral.

Local MPs in Windsor refer to this whole plan as revenue neutral. How does $2,000 out of your pocket and then another $1,000 out of your pocket for a total of $3,000 out of your pocket make it revenue neutral? That is a joke.

I want to reiterate that this is the 38th tax increase that this government has brought forward since it took power in 1993. It is not the first time it has attacked pensions. It has done it on numerous occasions before.

The government has attacked people in terms of their withdrawal time from RRSPs, moving it down to the age of 69. It is going to bring in at the top in any given year $45 million just off that. That is another one of its attacks on pensions and seniors in this country.

Then when it reduced the $8,000 RRSP overcontribution for those who were hoping to collect and use their RRSPs to bolster their retirement income, that was another $10 million tax on pensions.

When we add all these things up, with Bill C-2 to increase the Canada pension plan contributions to nearly 10%, and with what the Liberals are doing now to try to sneak this through in Bill C-10, they do not like old people, they do not like young people and I do not know who they like. They like the Minister of Finance but not much else.

I am going to go through a few questions that I think the Liberals should have asked when they were putting this bill forward and when they were considering it. First, who wants it? Do the seniors who are having a tax increase off this want to see this bill come forward? No. It is the finance minister who does but certainly not the seniors.

How much is it going to cost? That is another question that we have to level at the Liberals today. If it affects only 10,000 people with $1,000 each, that is at the bare minimum $10 million. If it affects 85,000 people at $2,000 each, that is $170 million.

Once again we have had no production here in the House today in terms of how much money this is going to cost, but nickels and dimes, millions and billions and when we add it up, pretty soon it is real money and it is on the backs of the seniors.

Does it solve the problem? The problem was that the Liberals put through a bad bill in 1995. Once again they are putting through a bad bill as a tax hike. They complained about double taxation. Instead they have replaced it with higher taxation. Does that in any way solve that problem, the problem being seniors who are having a tough time meeting ends meet and who are having a tax foisted on them when they are prepared for only a 50% rate of inclusion?

Would it pass a referendum? Would it pass popular consent? Would it carry the consent or the will of the people? Would it pass the judgment of fellow citizens? Does it have democratic consent? If the Liberals put this to a referendum of seniors who are affected by it, it would lose overwhelmingly. Indeed most Canadians would not vote for a tax increase.

The Liberals have often talked today about how taxes are investments. How wrong can they be? Taxes are not investments. Whether it is a tax to hoist up $10 billion out of the Canada pension plan or whether it is a tax that brings in tens if not hundreds of millions of dollars in terms of those seniors who are collecting social security benefits from the United States, taxes are not investments. The gall of this government to do all these things in the name of tax fairness; there is no fairness in a tax hike or a tax increase.

It might be more principled for the government to lower some other seniors taxes. It would be principled if it came out and talked about the tax decreases that it promised in the election. Is it going to renege on that in the same way it reneged on its promise to scrap, kill and abolish the GST? Who can trust the Liberals? The seniors can't. The young people can't. We cannot buy their election promises because they break them right, left and centre.

Income Tax Conventions Implementation Act, 1997Government Orders

5:50 p.m.

Reform

Jim Abbott Reform Kootenay—Columbia, BC

Mr. Speaker, I have a very tough question for my colleague. Before I pose it I wonder if we are not really talking about some kind of sense of security for Canadians. The movement of this bill is as quickly through the House as the Liberals can do it. We are not about to let that happen because we want Canadians to see the duplicity of this government and the way it tries to sneak these things through.

We are doing this because we are concerned that Canadians at all income levels should have the ability to be able to plan for their futures. I will touch back on this bill in a second but I cite by way of example the way the government went about changing the time rules. It rolled age 71 back to age 69 under the RRSPs, thereby effecting a $40 million or $50 million tax grab from unsuspecting seniors.

Typically, not always, seniors who would have RRSPs might be in the middle to the upper end income bracket. Those people are now faced with the situation of having to make major changes to the way their incomes as retirees will be coming to them. They have had to do a complete revision. The net result of this supposedly no tax government is the fact that the government will incidentally end up with another $30 million to $50 million.

Those are the middle income people. The concern I have in this instance is with the people at the bottom end. Those are the people who were approaching me in my office. I believe the member for Etobicoke North also admitted that these were the people who were approaching him. They are the people at the bottom end of the scale who suddenly had the rug yanked out from under them.

The very tricky question I have for my colleague is does he have any idea at all why in the world the finance minister, having realized that he had completely goofed and made a major mistake, would not have immediately changed this legislation? Why now after virtually two years is he finally getting around to doing this, restoring a small semblance of order to the lives of these very low income people? Why in the world would he have waited so long?

Income Tax Conventions Implementation Act, 1997Government Orders

5:50 p.m.

Reform

Rob Anders Reform Calgary West, AB

Mr. Speaker, sitting on this side of the House it is often difficult to get into a Liberal's mind and understand why they do what they do. One thing I do know about Liberals is that they are very shortsighted. They see only as far as the next election. It is funny to note that Bill C-2 to raise the CPP tax and Bill C-10 to take money off the backs and to break the backs of seniors receiving social security benefits from the United States both happened right after the election.

It makes me think. Other governments in the past have had a certain practice of bringing through their most draconian tax increasing legislation right after an election in the hopes that taxpayers will forget the wrongs done them. But it will not happen because these things have long tails, very long coattails indeed.

When you raise the CPP tax from 5.85% to 9.9% over a period of a few years, taxpayers will not forget it because it is still coming off their paycheques. Mark my words, those pensioners who have felt a 70% tax bite increase by this government will not forget that come election day.

Income Tax Conventions Implementation Act, 1997Government Orders

5:55 p.m.

Progressive Conservative

Rick Borotsik Progressive Conservative Brandon—Souris, MB

Mr. Speaker, I am duly impressed with the member's foresight, with his all encompassing knowledge and with his understanding of the situation.

His party was in the House during 1995 when the original legislation was passed. With such foresight, with such vision, with such crystal ball gazing, where was the hon. member when the original legislation was put through the House?

Income Tax Conventions Implementation Act, 1997Government Orders

5:55 p.m.

Reform

Rob Anders Reform Calgary West, AB

Mr. Speaker, when there is bad legislation a party should oppose it. Unfortunately in this case we did not see all the flaws in the bill.

There is a direct relationship with what is happening today. The government approached the opposition parties and said “It is a minor technical amendment. Other people want it. The seniors want it. The Americans want it. Everybody wants it. Trust us”. We made the mistake of trusting the Liberal government. However, I am not going to make it again.

That is why today the Reform Party stands opposed to this bill. No, we are not going to go along with kid gloves with the Liberal government with respect to a tax increase on the backs of seniors, unlike the Tories who just this morning were fawning over what a great bill this was, over how it had so many arrangements with other governments and how it ended tax duplication so that the Liberals could raise taxes. Liberal, Tory, same old story.

We are opposed to it. They were a little confused about it this morning, we are not.

Income Tax Conventions Implementation Act, 1997Government Orders

5:55 p.m.

Reform

Darrel Stinson Reform Okanagan—Shuswap, BC

Mr. Speaker, I was in here a little earlier and I heard a government member say that the government has never raised personal taxes. I know the government has raised taxes 38 times, including this time.

When I go to a gas station and I pay extra tax on gas, I find it very personal. I do not know about government members. I guess they do not. Government members, and we can all read it in Hansard , have stood in the House and said that the government has never increased personal taxes.

The hon. member mentioned taking away the $100,000 capital gains tax exemption. I think that $100,000 capital gains tax exemption was put in place for average workers. It gives them the hope of saving something. The government said no, it is for the rich. I guess maybe Liberals do not understand that the rich with $100,000 buy cars for their sons and daughters. The incentive for the average worker to hope to save $100,000 so the government cannot get its claws on it was taken away.

I look at all tax as legalized theft. If the mafia had this government as an example—

Income Tax Conventions Implementation Act, 1997Government Orders

5:55 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland)

With respect, the Chair does give a certain amount of leeway, but not that much. I would ask you to withdraw that comment.

Income Tax Conventions Implementation Act, 1997Government Orders

5:55 p.m.

Reform

Darrel Stinson Reform Okanagan—Shuswap, BC

Yes, Mr. Speaker. I withdraw it. You are quite correct. They could not have learned anything from this government.

Does the hon. member see this as a tax grab or as a benefit to society?

Income Tax Conventions Implementation Act, 1997Government Orders

5:55 p.m.

Reform

Rob Anders Reform Calgary West, AB

Mr. Speaker, the Liberals have touched on this and I am going to touch on it again, and I thank the hon. member for touching on it one more time, the idea of whether something is an investment or a tax hike.

When the government raises gasoline taxes I do not consider that an investment, in respect to the hon. member. When it cuts back the age at which somebody can contribute to an RRSP before it converts over to a registered retirement income fund from 71 to 69, that is not an investment either. When it cuts back the over-contribution rate of $8,000 or the amount one can over-contribute, that is not an investment either. When it taxes the worldwide pension income of people, which has now been three times, aside from C-2 and C-10, that is not an investment either. No, I do not think any of these things are investments. They are tax hikes.

The question comes up: What does the government use it for? Where is all the money going from these tax hikes? I look across the way and I see a whole field of members who have taken the MP pension plan and do not allow others to opt out. I look around on this side of the bench and I see people who stood on principle and have given up the trough. The government has people over there who will be collecting millions of dollars in MP pensions.

Income Tax Conventions Implementation Act, 1997Government Orders

6 p.m.

Liberal

Bob Kilger Liberal Stormont—Dundas, ON

Mr. Speaker, I will be splitting my time with the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Industry.

Bill C-10 will help a large number of low income Canadians who need this quickly. Therefore, pursuant to Standing Order 26, I move:

That the House continue beyond the ordinary hour of daily adjournment for the purpose of considering Bill C-10.

Income Tax Conventions Implementation Act, 1997Government Orders

6 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland)

The House has heard the terms of the motion. Will those members who object to the motion please rise in their place?

And fewer than 15 members having risen:

Income Tax Conventions Implementation Act, 1997Government Orders

6 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland)

The motion is deemed to be adopted.

(Motion agreed to)

Income Tax Conventions Implementation Act, 1997Government Orders

6:05 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland)

On a point of order, the hon. Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Industry.

Income Tax Conventions Implementation Act, 1997Government Orders

6:05 p.m.

Liberal

Walt Lastewka Liberal St. Catharines, ON

Mr. Speaker, I move:

That the question now be put.