Debates of Oct. 8th, 1997

Rcmp Investigations

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, I hope the hon. member will start to use the truth once in a while.

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh.

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Saint-Maurice, QC]

Yesterday she accused somebody who made a statement that money had been given on a project being built in my riding. The person who was dealing with the department of manpower, a Mr. Thibault, has never given a cent to the Liberal Party.

The hon. member mixed up a company from Winnipeg with a company from Montreal. She should have her facts before getting up in the House of Commons.

[Deborah Grey, Reform, Edmonton North, AB]

Mr. Speaker, it would be funny if it were not so sad that the Liberal Party initiated the investigation a long time before the campaign started in late April. This was only made public five days after the election campaign was over.

We have a real problem with that, even if the minister and prime minister do not happen to have a problem with that.

Who was it over on that side? I want them to stand and say “We told the RCMP to hold off until after the election” because it would be an embarrassment.

[Andy Scott, Liberal, Solicitor General of Canada]

Mr. Speaker, I sincerely hope the hon. member realizes it would be absolutely inappropriate to suggest that anybody would tell the RCMP to hold off on an investigation.

[Gilles Duceppe, Bloc, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

Mr. Speaker, yesterday the Minister of Human Resources Development said not only that the Société québécoise du développement de la main-d'oeuvre had lists of people waiting for grants, but that the political minister responsible for the region was aware of the contents of this list.

Under what pretext is the Minister of Human Resources Development providing confidential lists of people waiting for grants to the political ministers responsible for the regions, and who instructed him to do so?

[Pierre Pettigrew, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development]

Mr. Speaker, I am extremely pleased to remind the House that the very strength of this system of consultations in connection with the transitional job creation fund is that my department checks with Ms. Harel, based on our government's spending commitments to the Société québécoise de la main-d'oeuvre, the regional minister and socio-economic organizations. Opposition members are consulted in their own ridings about each of the proposals.

I think that this kind of checking is what makes our system so strong.

[Gilles Duceppe, Bloc, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

Mr. Speaker, the minister is well aware that opposition members are consulted only after his department has made its recommendation, not before.

Given his code of conduct, how can the Prime Minister allow confidential information about people waiting for grants to be released to political ministers responsible for the regions, and what is his motive?

[Pierre Pettigrew, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development]

Mr. Speaker, we check with people well informed about their ridings. I assume members know their ridings, and the businesses in them, well.

We check out the reliability of businesses. We want to find out whether they are businesses that will create jobs meeting the riding's socio-economic needs. If I consult the Government of Quebec, I can certainly consult the Government of Canada's minister responsible for the region.

[Michel Gauthier, Bloc, Roberval, QC]

Mr. Speaker, yesterday, Guy Gendron reported on CBC radio that Jacques Roy, who works in the office of the President of the Treasury Board, is allegedly under investigation in this matter of influence peddling.

My question is for the Prime Minister. Under the government's code of ethics, should an employee working in a minister's office, who is under investigation by the RCMP for influence peddling, not be immediately suspended until the matter he or she is involved in has been resolved?

[Marcel Massé, Liberal, President of the Treasury Board and Minister responsible for Infrastructure]

Mr. Speaker, I think we have to be very careful here, because I myself am not aware that someone in my office may be under investigation.

Questions put by the opposition parties may sully the reputation of innocent people. I think it would be advisable for my hon. colleagues to wait for an investigation to be completed, for charges to be laid and for guilt to be established before taking general information—

[The Speaker]

The hon. member for Roberval.

[Michel Gauthier, Bloc, Roberval, QC]

Mr. Speaker, there are very serious allegations of influence peddling currently sullying the government.

Is the President of the Treasury Board telling us that, after the revelations made yesterday on CBC radio, he did not bother to check with his employee, a member of his political staff, if indeed he was implicated in this matter?

[Marcel Massé, Liberal, President of the Treasury Board and Minister responsible for Infrastructure]

Again, Mr. Speaker, this is an investigation in which no charges have been laid so far.

The investigation is under way. I think the opposition should be very careful not to create a situation of injustice where it could drag in the mud someone who may end up not being charged with anything. Let the investigation take its course.

Canada Pension Plan

[Alexa McDonough, NDP, Halifax, NS]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the prime minister.

Millions and millions of Canadians under the age of 60 will be affected by the government changes to the Canada pension plan and yet, after only a few hours in second reading, the government is choking off parliamentary debate, shutting down on democracy.

Is it the prime minister's intention to govern parliament by closure? What is it he is trying to hide?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, it is the reference of legislation to a committee. There were two motions by the opposition refusing to send the legislation to committee to be studied by members of Parliament. They were just trying to delay debate rather than having a real debate.

It is in committee where members and people will be able to appear and make representations, but your members do not want to have a debate on it.

[Alexa McDonough, NDP, Halifax, NS]

Mr. Speaker, when did the government become afraid of the 301 members elected to represent—

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh.

[Alexa McDonough, NDP, Halifax, NS]

The government has provided no information on the adequacy of retirement incomes for Canadians as a result of these changes. Yet it is determined to ram the legislation through.

Why will the prime minister not permit more debate before he makes mistakes that Canadians will have to live with for the rest of their lives?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, it is opposition members who are refusing to have a real debate. They want to postpone. They want to have a vote, to have no debate.

The government is absolutely committed—

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh.

[The Speaker]

I am sure we are interested in both the questions and the answers. I know all hon. members would want to hear the answer. I know I would.

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Saint-Maurice, QC]

Mr. Speaker, if they want to have a debate they should withdraw their tactics not to have a debate.

There will be a debate but we want to refer it to a committee so that it will be studied. It is an agreement that the Minister of Finance made with all provincial governments. All provincial governments agreed to the legislation and this government is committed, along with the provincial governments, to having the legislation passed by Christmas.

Rcmp Investigations

[André Bachand, Progressive Conservative, Richmond—Arthabaska, QC]

Mr. Speaker, on Monday I asked the President of the Treasury Board whether one or more employees in his office had given confidential information to Pierre Gobeil, who is currently under investigation by the RCMP. The minister's response was no.

Can the minister reaffirm in this House that Jacques Roy, an employee in his Montreal office who is paid by Treasury Board and who receives his orders directly from the minister, never had any contact with Pierre Gobeil or shared with him confidential information connecting the government with influence peddling?

[Marcel Massé, Liberal, President of the Treasury Board and Minister responsible for Infrastructure]

Mr. Speaker, once again, the opposition party is naming people who, so far as I know, have not been charged with anything. An investigation is under way to determine just what happened and whether charges should be laid.

The opposition should refrain from tarnishing the reputation of people who may be innocent and should wait for the investigation to be completed.