Debates of Oct. 8th, 1997

Rcmp Investigations

[Peter MacKay, Progressive Conservative, Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough, NS]

Mr. Speaker, we now know for a fact that the RCMP visited the Liberal Party headquarters. We know for a fact that there is an individual currently working in the minister's office under investigation by the RCMP.

My question is for the President of the Treasury Board. Could he confirm for us that Mr. Jacques Roy was under the direct orders of his executive assistance, Mr. Marcel Proulx?

[Marcel Massé, Liberal, President of the Treasury Board and Minister responsible for Infrastructure]

Mr. Speaker, once again we hear innuendoes and accusations from the other side that are not based on fact.

The proper and equitable course to follow is to wait until the RCMP investigation has taken place to see if they will lay charges and what happens if they do. That is the proper way, and not to start affecting the reputations of a number of people who must be held to be innocent until otherwise proven.

Canada Pension Plan

[Diane Ablonczy, Reform, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

Mr. Speaker, what do the letters CPP stand for? The Liberals will say that they stand for Canada pension plan, but young Canadians do not believe they will collect this pension. They say it stands for crazy political promises.

Now the Liberals are cutting off debate after only seven hours. They are shutting down the democratic process.

My question is for the Prime Minister. Does CPP really stand for cowardly parliamentary procedure?

[Paul Martin, Liberal, Minister of Finance]

Mr. Speaker, CPP stands for a basic pension for all working Canadians.

CPP stands for a disability pension for Canadians when they need it, which the Reform Party refuses to offer.

CPP stands for maternity benefits, which the Reform Party refuses to offer.

CPP stands for the Canadian government standing behind the Canadian people, which the Reform Party refuses to do.

[Diane Ablonczy, Reform, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

Mr. Speaker, the Liberals want to cut short the debate because they do not want Canadian employers to find out that their payroll taxes are about to jump sky high.

They do not want employees to know that their take home pay is about to shrink. They do not want self-employed entrepreneurs to know that they will soon be paying a tenth of their earnings straight into the finance minister's slush fund.

The Tories gave us the hated GST. Are the Liberals not just the same, by pushing through a bigger pension tax?

[Paul Martin, Liberal, Minister of Finance]

Mr. Speaker, for over two years consultation on the CPP took place right across the country, not only by the federal government but every provincial government had discussions in their houses.

There will be a legislative committee which will deal with it. Hearings will be held.

The issue is why the Reform Party is trying to crush this debate.

[Some hon. members]

Hear, hear.

[The Speaker]

I am having a difficult time hearing the questions and answers.

Rcmp Investigations

[Michel Gauthier, Bloc, Roberval, QC]

Mr. Speaker, in the light of the very serious allegations in the matter of influence peddling, how does the Prime Minister explain the government's ethics section not ordering an immediate internal inquiry in the offices of ministers who may be involved and the fact that it has taken over seven months, questions from the opposition and from journalists and a report by the CBC pointing the finger at an employee of the minister to discover that the minister still has not found out what was going on in his office?

Is there some rule in the Liberal code of ethics providing that, in the case of this government, “if nobody can see you, nobody can catch you”?

[Marcel Massé, Liberal, President of the Treasury Board and Minister responsible for Infrastructure]

Mr. Speaker, the proof of this government's integrity lies in the fact that the person who requested an investigation by the RCMP was our colleague the Minister of Human Resources Development. He asked for an investigation as soon as he learned of the allegations.

I do not think anyone, especially the Bloc Quebecois, is in a position to point the finger on the subject of taking the appropriate action in such a case.

[Michel Gauthier, Bloc, Roberval, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I think the minister was saved by the bell. He was in the process of telling us something he could never finish.

This minister learned last night on the CBC that one of his assistants may be directly involved in the worst affair to hit the government in three years and here he is saying he did not know, he did not check.

We want to know whether or not he checked with his executive assistant—

[The Speaker]

The President of the Treasury Board and Minister responsible for Infrastructure has the floor.

[Marcel Massé, Liberal, President of the Treasury Board and Minister responsible for Infrastructure]

Mr. Speaker, once again, no charges have been laid in this investigation. An investigation is underway, and the Bloc is busy sullying the reputation of people who have not yet had a chance to defend themselves.

The right thing to do is to ignore the gossip mongers who are tarnishing people's reputations. Right now, we just have to let the investigation take its course.

Canada Pension Plan

[Monte Solberg, Reform, Medicine Hat, AB]

Mr. Speaker, the finance minister's massive CPP rip-off is a little bit like a dead fish. The longer it sits in public the more it stinks. Cutting off debate after one and a half days is a massive insult to Canadians.

Why will the finance minister not admit that he is ramming through this tax to avoid the stink of this bad deal sticking to his own political ambitions?

[Paul Martin, Liberal, Minister of Finance]

Mr. Speaker, it is very clear that debate will be extensive. There will be debate in committee and debate in this House.

The real issue is why is Reform trying to frustrate that debate? Is Reform worried that there will be an examination of its own alternative? Is Reform afraid that the Canadian people will see how the Reform plan will leave the poor and the middle class unattended? Is Reform afraid that we will see how much its plan will gouge the Canadian people? What is Reform afraid of?

[Monte Solberg, Reform, Medicine Hat, AB]

Mr. Speaker, this is the largest single tax grab in Canadian history: $10 billion a year by the time the government is done hiking premiums; a 73% increase.

When is the minister going to change the name from 24 Sussex Drive to 24 Sucks us Dry?

[Paul Martin, Liberal, Minister of Finance]

Mr. Speaker, the hon. member had all night to think about that and if that is the best that he can come up with it is pretty pathetic.

There is only one issue here. We support the Canada pension plan. Reform would destroy it.

Rcmp Investigations

[Gilles Duceppe, Bloc, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Human Resources Development informed us that he forwarded lists of grant applicants to the ministers responsible for the regions, including the President of Treasury Board.

I would like to know whether the President of Treasury Board, as the minister responsible for the Quebec region, receives such lists from other ministers. I am thinking of the Minister of Industry, the Minister of Public Works and Government Services, the Minister of Health and the Minister of Transport. Does he receive such lists from other departments or only from the Minister of Human Resources Development?

[The Speaker]

Dear colleagues, in my opinion, this question is out of order.

Once again, we are not talking about a political responsibility. The question must go to the administrative responsibility of a member of the government or the government. I will permit a second question. The first one is not in order.

[Gilles Duceppe, Bloc, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Human Resources Development is telling us how his department operates and that the minister responsible for the Quebec region is consulted by the Department of Human Resources Development.

It seems to me that it would be natural to want to know whether he is consulted as part of the overall government procedure, not just that for one department. We have been told about the procedure for one department. I would like to know whether it is the same for other departments.

These are not just political, but administrative responsibilities, as part of the administrative procedure.

[The Speaker]

In his question, the hon. member mentioned the Minister of Human Resources Development and what he did. If the Minister of Human Resources Development wishes to reply to this question, he may do so.

[Pierre Pettigrew, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development]

Mr. Speaker, I will avail myself of your kind invitation to clarify what I said a bit earlier. It was not lists but proposals that I forwarded to ministers and individual members. The consultations are about proposals, not lists. They are based on proposals.

Canada Pension Plan

[Jason Kenney, Reform, Calgary Southeast, AB]

Mr. Speaker, the House is now debating the single largest tax increase in Canadian history, a $10 billion tax grab that will take 10% off the paycheques of every Canadian and will forever make the future of young Canadians poorer.

My question is for the Prime Minister. Why is he shutting down debate on the single largest tax increase ever considered by Parliament after only seven hours of debate? Why?

[Paul Martin, Liberal, Minister of Finance]

Mr. Speaker, the hon. member refers, as have his colleagues, to the 9.9%. He says that this is a very large increase and it is. It is however substantially lower than the 13% increase that would arise from the alternative plan.

Since the hon. member will have the opportunity to ask a supplementary question, will he stand in the House now and tell us how much the Reform cost premiums will be? Will they be 13% or will they be higher?

[Jason Kenney, Reform, Calgary Southeast, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I want to do just that, which is why I am furious that this government is trying to gag Parliament on this issue.