House of Commons Hansard #48 of the 36th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was debt.

Topics

Motions For PapersRoutine Proceedings

3:20 p.m.

Progressive Conservative

Greg Thompson Progressive Conservative Charlotte, NB

Mr. Speaker, this is in relation to a Notice of Motion for the Production of Papers. The notice was given on September 23.

I just want to remind the government of documentation relating to the recent provincial ministers of health meetings, the health care transition fund and the Council of Deputy Ministers of Health and Ministers of Health. Specifically it is documentation pertaining to discussions on the national blood agency, discussions on a new national pharmacare program and discussions on the proposed new national home care program. I am extremely interested in having those papers produced.

Motions For PapersRoutine Proceedings

3:25 p.m.

Liberal

Paul Devillers Liberal Simcoe North, ON

Mr. Speaker, similarly, I would be happy to take it under advisement and review it with the leadership of the House and respond to the hon. member.

Motions For PapersRoutine Proceedings

3:25 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

Shall all Notices of Motions for the Production of Papers stand?

Motions For PapersRoutine Proceedings

3:25 p.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

FinanceGovernment Orders

3:25 p.m.

Edmonton Southeast Alberta

Liberal

David Kilgour Liberalfor the Leader of the Government in the House of Commons

moved:

That this House take note of the second report of the Standing Committee on Finance presented on Monday, December 1, 1997.

FinanceGovernment Orders

3:25 p.m.

Liberal

Maurizio Bevilacqua Liberal Vaughan—King—Aurora, ON

Mr. Speaker, it is a pleasure to participate in this very important debate, a debate which speaks to the issues of Canadian values and priorities for today and for the future.

Canadians have spoken. Their message was quite clear. Canadians want balance, balance between the security offered through debt reduction and tax relief and the benefits of investing in people and indeed our future. They quite frankly told us that health care, education and pensions are not only line items on a budget sheet, but rather they represent our core values as a people. Indeed they are an expression of our values.

This fall as part of its annual prebudget consultation, the House of Commons Standing Committee on Finance travelled from coast to coast to coast engaging Canadians in a national dialogue about building a strong economy and a strong society. We asked our fellow citizens about their values, about their priorities and how the federal budget should reflect them.

I am pleased to announce that this year's consultation was the most extensive ever. In addition to regional consultations and round table discussions in which members of the committee participated, we called upon members of Parliament to hold town hall meetings to ensure that the people in their ridings were involved in the policy process. That is very important.

It is important because as the Standing Committee on Finance travelled to the major cities of this country, members of Parliament were reaching to the rural areas of this country, to the small towns. Many of the discussions took place not necessarily in hotel ballrooms but around the kitchen table, where many important decisions in this country take place.

People everywhere throughout this great nation accepted our challenge with a great deal of enthusiasm and a determination to make a difference. It was quite clear to me that they approached this consultation with an understanding that economic growth and fiscal success are not ends in themselves, but rather they are means to improving the quality of life of all Canadians.

In total, including round table discussions, witnesses, town hall participants, letters and e-mails, our committees received over 4,900 submissions. This national conversation was both rewarding and enlightening. Not only did we as members of Parliament come away with a sense of what individual Canadians want in the next budget, but we learned a great deal about the new outlook that is shared by many Canadians.

It is one that is filled with a great deal of optimism and hope. People told us that change is not something they feared. Change is something that we embrace.

Throughout our meetings it became quite clear that the challenges we faced as a nation in the 1980s and 1990s have made us a more confident people. This in large part is possible because of our Canadian character which allows us to adapt to change and triumph in the face of adversity.

Adversity is the right word to describe the situation our country faced in the early 1990s. We were confronted with a vicious circle of high deficits, high interest rates, slow economic growth and high unemployment. This vicious circle wreaked havoc on our standard of living, on our position on the world stage and on our future.

Thanks to the hard work, the foresight and much sacrifice, Canada is about to enter a new era, one in which the government's bottom line will be written in black ink rather than red and one in which the Government of Canada will be able to tackle the challenges facing our nation more effectively than it could in the past.

We are moving forward, replacing the excesses of the past with the successes of today. Interest rates are at their lowest levels in three decades. Inflation remains firmly under control. Consumer and business confidence are up and continue to rise. The virtuous circle of lower deficit, lower interest rates, stronger economic growth and job creation is perpetuating a culture of success.

On October 15, 1997 the finance minister unveiled the results of four long years of sacrifice by the Canadian public. Clearly that sacrifice has paid off. The deficit four years ago stood at $42 billion. We all remember that when the Liberal government took office after the Conservative government the deficit was at $42 billion. Now it is at $8.9 billion. Every target has been bettered. The $8.9 billion is almost $15.5 billion below the original target for this year and almost $20 billion below the deficit of the previous year.

The minister went further, promising a balanced budget no later than the year 1998-99. Today Canadians face a brighter future. Let us for a second take a minute or so to look at some of the headlines that appeared in newspapers. In the Globe and Mail , October 1, 1993, “Economic outlook dim”. In the Globe and Mail , July 1, 1997, “Economy Rockets Ahead”. In the Financial Post , September 18, 1993, “Falling jobs, sales, exports turn 1993 into a disappointment”. In the Financial Post , November 12, 1997, “Economy gets upbeat appraisal”.

The next headline speaks to another very important issue about Canada's position on the world stage. How sad it was back in the early 1990s when editorials, newspaper articles and opinions around the globe were stating that Canada was a basket case in economic and financial terms.

In the Wall Street Journal , March 24, “Canadian government disappointed with down grade”. In the Wall Street Journal , February 20, 1997, “Canada's budget wins applause because of its restraint”. In the Ottawa Citizen , July 23, 1993, “Recovery sputters through spring”. In the Toronto Star , December 2, 1997, “Economy grows at 4.2%”.

This must mean something. It means that through the hard work and sacrifice of Canadians, through the entrepreneurial spirit of the private sector in Canada and through the responsible management of the Canadian economy by the federal government, Canadians are now looking to the future with a great deal of optimism.

There is a great deal of pride in me and I am sure in Canadians from coast to coast to coast when we see that economic conditions have bettered to the point where now Canada is not being laughed at by other countries. Because of what we have been able to do in the House of Commons and throughout the country, Canada is referred to as the Canadian miracle.

Gone is the burden of the $42 billion deficit. Gone are the crippling interest rates and rising inflation. Gone is double digit unemployment. Over one million jobs have been created since the government took office. Unemployment has been below 10% for 12 consecutive months.

I understand the pain the member for Markham is going through. He remembers as clearly as I do when the former prime minister stated that the unemployment rate could never fall below 10% until the next millennium. I understand and I feel his pain.

This enhanced confidence in our prospects and abilities will prove to be truly a valuable asset as we face new challenges in the future. Not only do we as Canadians believe that tomorrow will be better than today. We also have the capacity to make it so.

Canadians feel empowered in today's society. They have seen the impact they have on government policy. They are determined now more than ever to continue to steer our country in the right direction.

Throughout our consultations Canadians spoke clearly and decisively on many issues. They expressed serious concern about the national debt. Canadians want us to finish the fight with the deficit and to turn our attention to the debt.

At 73.1% our debt to GDP ratio continues to curb our economic potential. This is why the committee called for the government to establish an interim debt to GDP ratio range between 50% to 60%, and we went further. We also said that it should be done within the life of this mandate.

There is no question about the fact that Canadians want to leave future generations a legacy of expanding opportunities rather than one of high taxes and escalating debt. Let me leave no doubt in the minds of my hon. friends across the way. Canadians recognize that across the board tax cuts are not affordable at this time. To implement them would be irresponsible and short sighted. I also want my friends in the House to know Canadians want targeted tax relief.

That is the reason the committee felt it was important to address a number of issues including raising the basic personal non-refundable tax credit amount, reviewing the impact deindexation has had on our tax system, addressing the issue when the fiscal situation permits, and reducing or eliminating surtax on personal income. These are all issues we heard about. As a responsible committee we brought them to the attention of the House of Commons and the Minister of Finance.

A message that was very clear from the people of Canada was that once tax cuts are feasible, the focus should be on the personal income tax. The committee continued to call for immediate measures that would help those in greatest need.

There has been a lot of talk about spending and investment, call it what we may. The reality is that Canadians are against old fashioned spending sprees. They want continued fiscal responsibility. They want continued prudent budgeting and prudent assumptions. They want the $3 billion contingency fund to be used toward the debt, a very important point to be made.

They do not want to see the economic stability of the country undermined by an oppressive deficit ever again. They want to ensure that those who need it most receive support from our social safety net. They want to build an economy that is prepared for the challenges that lay ahead in the next century. They want responsible government. They want wise investments. They want results.

The spending patterns of previous governments demonstrated a lack of respect for Canadian taxpayers. As elected representatives we owe it to the families we represent to invest their resources wisely. New resources, whether invested through new programs or significant changes to existing programs, should be allocated within a framework of accountability like that introduced in the government's program review.

That means determining whether the program addresses an evident problem, whether it could be resolved more efficiently by the federal government, other levels of government or the private sector, whether the proposed program is the most effective way to approach the problem, whether the program is being delivered efficiently and whether we can afford it.

It makes sense to put checks and balances in place to ensure Canadian taxpayers are getting the best value for their tax dollars. Let me quite blunt. Having the money to spend is no justification for spending the money. Respect is a theme that runs throughout our report: respect for Canadians, taxpayers, those in need, innovators, respect for their right to a responsible government and a better tomorrow.

RRSPs are one of the three pillars of our retirement income system. The committee in its wisdom recommends that the schedule for contribution limits set out in the 1996 budget should be revised so as to allow contributions to increase before 2002. The committee also recommends that the 20% foreign property rule be increased in 2% increments to 30% over a five-year period. This diversification will allow Canadians to achieve higher returns on their retirement and reduce their exposure to risk, which will benefit all Canadians when they retire.

Canadians also told us that small and medium size businesses create roughly 85% of all new jobs and account for 45% of Canada's GDP. Their importance in our economy cannot be overstated. It is in everyone's interest to ensure our economic environment is one in which they can thrive. It is for this reason that the committee supported the government's move to lower EI premium rates. This measure, the latest measure taken by the government, will result in a $1.4 billion saving for both employers and employees.

However, we went further than that. We also said when the fiscal situation permits, EI premiums should be further reduced. We call on the government to ensure that EI premiums not be increased during an economic downturn.

The committee also recommended that the government take steps to address imbalances in the way different sectors of our economy are treated by the tax system and to examine the appropriateness of the $200,000 threshold of the small business deduction.

As we build a strong economy, the government should do its part as a partner and facilitator to modernize the economy and to do its part. That is the reason we supported programs such as Technology Partnership Canada, the industrial research assistance program, because it goes a long way in helping Canadian businesses compete in a global economy.

Our report also respects Canadian priorities when it comes to the social safety net. Both on the road and throughout the public hearings in Ottawa, Canadians told us that they are ready to reinvest in the social and economic needs of our society. That means improvements to Canada's health care system, which includes an increase in the CHST cash floor to $12.4 billion, a recommendation that was acted upon earlier this week.

It also means continuing support for the youth employment strategy. If I can speak on this particular issue for a few minutes, Mr. Speaker. I had the privilege to chair the Ministerial Task Force on Youth. From that Ministerial Task Force on Youth the government responded with the Youth Employment Strategy. Today, as a result of those measures, hundreds of thousands of young Canadians have benefited.

Youth Internship Canada, Youth Service Canada, the Summer Job Action Plan, these speak to a very important issue providing opportunities for young people to give them that very important first chance at a job, to get that very important first line on their resumé.

As a member who has dedicated the greater part of his political life to addressing the issue of youth unemployment and concerns related to young people, I can say that the most important barrier they face is the experience paradox: no job, no experience; no experience, no job. That is why the government as a partner in the development of the Canadian economy should play its role in making sure that that very first important chance is given to young people.

We live in changing times, more challenging times for our young people. Many of the new economy's jobs require a higher level of education which means that one of the roles of the government should be to provide opportunity and accessibility to post-secondary education so that young people, students, can be given the opportunity to acquire the educational level required to get those new economy jobs.

Investment in these areas are means to making the new—

FinanceGovernment Orders

3:50 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

Order please. I hesitate to interrupt the hon member but I have some messages to communicate to the House.

FinanceThe Royal Assent

3:50 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

I have the honour to inform the House that a communication has been received as follows:

December 10, 1997

Mr. Speaker:

I have the honour to inform you that the Right Honourable Antonio Lamer, Chief Justice of the Supreme Court of Canada, in his capacity as Deputy Governor General, will proceed to the Senate Chamber today, the 10th day of December, 1997, at 4:00 p.m. for the purpose of giving royal assent to certain bills.

Yours sincerely,

Message From The SenateThe Royal Assent

3:50 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

I have the honour to inform the House that a message has been received from the Senate informing the House that the Senate has passed the following bills, without amendments: Bill C-7, an act to establish the Saguenay-St. Lawrence Marine Park and to make a consequential amendment to another Act; Bill C-10, an act to implement a convention between Canada and Sweden, a convention between Canada and the Republic of Lithuania, a convention between Canada and the Republic of Kazakhstan, a convention between Canada and the Republic of Iceland and a convention between Canada and the Kingdom of Denmark for the avoidance of double taxation and the prevention of fiscal evasion with respect to taxes on income and the amend the Canada-Netherlands Income Tax Convention Act, 1986 and the Canada-United States Tax Convention Act, 1984.

The House resumed consideration of the motion.

FinanceGovernment Orders

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Maurizio Bevilacqua Liberal Vaughan—King—Aurora, ON

Mr. Speaker, at the conclusion of my remarks I spoke about the issue of post-secondary education and also that the committee recognizes the initiatives of the federal government to date and recommends that additional resources be dedicated toward helping children living in poverty as the fiscal dividend grows.

Investments in these areas are means to making the new economy work for Canadians. By taking such steps we can ensure security and opportunity now and in the future.

On behalf of all committee members, I want to thank Canadians from coast to coast to coast for participating in our pre-budget consultation. It has instilled a profound respect for our country, its citizens and their ideas in all members of the committee.

“In Keeping the Balance”, which is the title of the report, we have tried to respond with the substance our fellow citizens demand, as well as a budget plan they deserve. I am proud of what we have accomplished together.

FinanceGovernment Orders

3:55 p.m.

Calgary Southwest Alberta

Reform

Preston Manning ReformLeader of the Opposition

Mr. Speaker, I rise to participate with enthusiasm in this pre-budget take note debate mainly because it deals with matters that touch on the lives and the livelihood of all Canadians.

Because it is the Christmas season, I thought I might begin by reading from the New Testament what is reputed to be the Minister of Finance's favourite part of the Christmas story, from Luke's gospel: “And it came to pass in those days that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus that all the world should be taxed. All went to be taxed, everyone into his own city”, the classic case of a rich and powerful government imposing onerous taxes on the poor, a theme to which I would like to return in a moment.

The real issue before us is this. What should be the financial priorities of the federal government once the budget is balanced?

In response to that question, we have two fundamentally different views in this House. We have the government's position that once the budget is balanced, 50% of any surplus will be directed toward new spending. The remaining 50% is to be divided between debt reduction and tax relief. In other words, the highest priority of the government once the budget is balanced is increased spending.

In the government's Speech from the Throne, we saw this 50-50 promise. In the pages that followed there was not a single concrete proposal for debt reduction or tax relief, but there were 29 proposals for additional spending. In the Minister of Finance's economic statement made in Vancouver earlier this year, we saw the same thing, a repeat of the 50-50 promise, followed by 10 pages of spending proposals.

We see virtually the same pattern repeated in the report of the Standing Committee on Finance, entitled “In Keeping the Balance”. On page 32 we have a simplistic restatement of the 50-50 promise without any intellectual justification at all. This is then followed by 22 pages containing at least 17 specific proposals for increased spending, as well as the defence of a dozen more spending increases already provided for in the 1997-98 budget.

We then have another 30 pages of the report, and what do they contain or fail to contain? Not one word on how to achieve debt reduction targets, and we did not hear a single word on this from the chairman of the committee today. Not one word on either short-term or long-term debt management strategy. A recommendation opposing broad-based tax relief. A recommendation that certain payroll taxes not be increased. Now, there is a public relations device. Half a dozen big unqualified recommendations that certain tax relief measures be examined or studied or considered, but only when circumstances allow or when the fiscal situation permits. Half a dozen very specific measures which amount to little more than administrative tinkering on such high priority items as a tax treatment of earthquake reserves. In fact, the only tax relief measures of any substance are the recommendations on pages 59 to 60 for increasing personal and spousal income tax exemptions and developing a schedule for removing the 3% and 5% surtaxes.

Lo and behold, these proposals are lifted virtually word for word from Reform's fresh start platform in the 1997 federal election.

We appreciate the inclusion of three of our tax reform measures in the committee's report, imitation being the sincerest form of flattery, but we find it ironic that when we proposed these measures during the election they were denounced by the Liberals as tax cuts for the rich. Now that they have been resuscitated by the Liberals, they are described in this report as measures essential to building a fair tax system.

The bottom line of all this is that when it comes to spending propositions, the government's plans and the committee's recommendations are specific and urgent, but when it comes to debt reduction and tax relief, the government's proposals are non-existent, stolen, vague or distant. This is what happens when you make increased spending your number one priority, which is this government's position.

The position of the official opposition is that debt reduction and tax relief should be the highest priority of the government. I had expected that the federal debt situation would be spelled out in detail in this report. However, since the government does not appear to take the debt seriously, the official opposition must fill the vacuum.

The net federal debt stood at $583 billion at the end of the 1996-97 fiscal year. This amounts to $19,400 per person or $77,600 per family of four. If that debt were converted to $5 bills and laid end to end, it would circle the earth 1,448 times.

I do not mind saying that this debt has even changed the way doctors deliver babies. I have this on good advice from the member for Macleod as well as the member for Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, both of whom are physicians. In the old days when they delivered a baby they would hold the baby up and give it a pat on the bottom to get it to cry and fill its lungs. Today all they do is hold the baby up and whisper in its ear “you owe us $19,400” and the baby starts to cry right away.

The federal debt currently stands at over 60% of the gross domestic product. The total public debt in Canada is almost 100% of GDP. In other words, if the total value of all the goods and services produced in the entire year by every economic enterprise and government in the entire country were converted into cash that would hardly be enough to retire our public debt.

Canadians ask once we raise this subject to whom do we owe this money. About $120 billion of this debt, or 25% of the government's market debt, is owed to non-residents, so that the interest payments flow out of the country. About one-third of the foreign held debt rests with U.S. investors, with the remainder divided mainly between European and Japanese investors.

The domestically held debt was held in roughly these proportions: by the Bank of Canada, 7%; by non-financial corporations, 4%; by all levels of government, 7%; by public and other financial institutions, 17%; by quasi-banks, 3%; by the chartered banks, 23%; by life insurance and pension funds, 26%; and by persons and unincorporated businesses, 14%.

The government also owes $3.7 billion to the Canada pension plan and $114 billion to public sector pension plans. Of total debt owed to outside parties 7% is in the form of Canada savings bonds, 28.4% is in the form of treasury bills, and 64.1% is in the form of marketable Canadian government bonds.

The annual interest payments on this massive pile of federal debt amounts to $45 billion a year or $3,210 a year for every working Canadian.

Need I say more or provide any more information as to why the official opposition wants to make debt reduction, not spending, a higher priority?

Let me turn to the tax situation. The Liberal government has increased taxes 37 times since 1993. Net personal income tax revenues were $51 billion in 1993-94. They are now on track to increase to $70 billion in 1998-99. Since 1961 the tax bill of the average Canadian family has increased by over 1,168%. After adjusting for inflation, the tax bill of the average family has still jumped by 125%.

The average Canadian family now spends more on taxes than on food, shelter and clothing combined. The personal income tax levels, both as a percentage of our gross domestic product and as a percentage of total taxation, are higher now than those of all our G-7 trading partners.

Canadian taxpayers have a heavier personal income tax burden than our taxpaying brethren in the U.S., in the United Kingdom, in Japan, in Germany, in France and in Italy.

The average Canadian family has therefore suffered a $3,000 per year drop in real inflation adjusted income since 1993, the year the Liberals took office.

Need I say more or provide any more information?

A message was delivered by the Usher of the Black Rod as follows:

Mr. Speaker, it is the desire of the Honourable Deputy to His Excellency the Governor General that this honourable House attend him immediately in the Senate chamber.

Accordingly the Speaker with the House went up to the Senate chamber.

And being returned:

FinanceThe Royal Assent

4:15 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland)

I have the honour to inform the House that when the House did attend the Right Hon. the Deputy to His Excellency the Governor General in the Senate chamber, the Right Hon. the Deputy to His Excellency was pleased to give in Her Majesty's name, the royal assent to the following bills:

Bill C-7, an act to establish the Saguenay-St. Lawrence Marine Park and to make a consequential amendment to another act—Chapter No. 37.

Bill C-10, an act to implement a convention between Canada and Sweden, a convention between Canada and the Republic of Lithuania, a convention between Canada and the Republic of Kazakhstan, a convention between Canada and the Republic of Iceland and a convention between Canada and the Kingdon of Denmark for the avoidance of double taxation and the prevention of fiscal evasion with respect to taxes on income and to amend the Canada-Netherlands Income Tax Convention Act, 1986 and the Canada-United States Tax Convention Act, 1984—Chapter No. 38.

The House resumed consideration of the motion.

FinanceGovernment Orders

4:15 p.m.

Calgary Southwest Alberta

Reform

Preston Manning ReformLeader of the Opposition

Mr. Speaker, to conclude on the issue of taxation, the average Canadian family has suffered a $3,000 drop in real income since 1993, the year the Liberals took office. I do not think I have to say anything more or provide any more information on why the official opposition wants to make tax relief a higher priority than increased government spending. Canadians are taxed to death.

The position of the official opposition is that governments in Canada in aggregate should not consume more than 30% of the GDP. Governments today consume about 43%. Our position is that Canada's intermediate debt reduction target should be to reduce the debt to GDP to 50% by the year 2004, and that our long range target should be to reduce debt to GDP to 20% of GDP by the year 2015.

With respect to fiscal priorities our position is to limit federal spending to a fixed percentage of gross national product and allocate any surplus roughly 50:50 between debt reduction and tax relief. While we acknowledge a need for greater investment in some areas, such as health, research, post-secondary education and research and development, it is our belief that these needs should be met through a reallocation of budgets within the existing envelopes rather than through increased spending.

With respect to tax relief, our tax relief proposals include a $3 billion reduction in EI premiums paid by Canada's employers, and a $12 billion reduction in personal income taxes through raising personal exemptions, adjusting the child care expense deduction and a 50% reduction in capital gains tax. The net effect of these tax relief measures is to remove about 1.3 million lower and middle income Canadians from the federal income tax rolls altogether, including about 300,000 seniors.

On any issue Reformers always want to look at what the people themselves think. In challenging the government's desire to make increased spending its number one priority and in advocating that the highest priority be given to debt reduction and tax relief, Reform is supported by larger and larger numbers of Canadians, as indicated by the recent Compas poll commissioned by the Ottawa Citizen .

The Compas poll found that 89% of Canadians want the largest proportion of the surplus to be used for debt reduction. On average Canadians want the government to put at least 40% of the surplus toward the debt; 72% want the government to hold more discussion before it spends any surplus. Almost half of all Canadians feel the government's status quo pace of debt reduction is too slow. Only 38% of Canadians believe the government has explained its position on debt and taxes well, while almost 60% believe Reform has done a good job.

Eighty-two per cent of Canadians say that taxes are just too high, with 52% of Canadians holding this position intensely. Fifty-nine per cent of Quebeckers agree a lot that taxes are too high compared with 53% nationally. Perhaps the best thing the government could do to persuade Quebeckers to remain in Canada is to simply stop taxing them to death. Eighty per cent of Canadians believe that the basic personal exemption should be raised and 82% of Canadians agree that tax cuts will create jobs.

When Reform advocates that debt retirement and tax relief be made the highest fiscal priorities of this government, we are not arguing some peripheral right wing extreme position. We are advancing a proposition that has massive and growing support from people of all persuasions and types across the entire country.

I have referred to the principal deficiencies of the finance committee report, namely its inadequate attention to debt reduction and higher taxes. But there is one other serious flaw to which I would like to draw the attention of the House.

The cover of the finance committee report, as well as the structure of its table of contents, reflects what logicians refer to as a false dichotomy. A false dichotomy arises when one sets up categories for organizing data that lead to false or misleading conclusions, for example, when one treats as opposites things that are not opposites, or when one treats as complementary things that are not complementary.

The cover of the finance committee report shows a balance scale. On the balance scale pictured on the cover of that report, all the fiscal factors, debt and taxes, are shown on one side of the scale and all the social factors, like social security, education, health and the well-being of youth are shown on the other side, as if a greater increase in fiscal responsibility would result in a decrease in social security or vice versa.

Apparently this government thinks that helping people and cutting debt and taxes are opposites, when in fact the two measures are complementary. They ought to be on the same side of the scale, not on opposite sides of the scale. In a moment I hope to demonstrate this beyond any reasonable doubt to members of the House.

In the remainder of this take note debate, the official opposition will make the case for debt retirement and tax relief more strongly than it has ever been made in this House. My colleagues, such as the official opposition finance critic, the member for Medicine Hat, the official opposition critic for revenue, the member for Calgary Southeast, and other members will present as strongly as possible the facts, the arguments and the reasons for debt reduction and tax relief.

We will argue that high taxes hurt our trade competitiveness, that they kill jobs and reduce disposable income. We will argue that high debt is costly and renders us extremely vulnerable to interest rate and exchange rate fluctuations.

But members of the House will know that arguments based on fiscal rationality do not move this government. If they did, the government would have committed itself to balancing the budget through genuine spending reduction rather than tax increases and it would already be committed to debt reduction and tax relief.

I am going to take another tack. This government never ceases to tell us that it has a great and enlightened social conscience, that its real priority is helping people and caring for the disadvantaged. Therefore for the purposes of this debate at least, I am going to take that profession at face value. I will therefore present the argument for debt retirement and tax relief from an entirely social perspective.

I want to present the House with the argument that high debt and high taxes are socially irresponsible, that they hurt millions of people, that they carry a heavy social cost. I want to argue that debt relief and tax relief are not only fiscally beneficial but they are socially beneficial, that they help millions of people, including the most vulnerable members of society. Then let the Canadian people see if the government is really as committed to social responsibility as it claims to be. Let us see if it can be moved by social arguments to give the highest priority to debt reduction and tax relief.

Let me start with the negative social impacts of pyramiding debt and interest payments. The pyramiding of the debt of the federal government to $583 billion has led as I said to annual interest payments of $45 billion or $3,200 per year per person, for every working Canadian.

This annual debt service bill is enough to run the governments of Newfoundland, P.E.I., Nova Scotia, New Brunswick, Manitoba, Saskatchewan and Alberta for an entire year with enough left over to pay the entire public debts of Newfoundland, New Brunswick and P.E.I. This annual debt service bill is enough to pay the tuition for four million Canadian young people to finish a four year university course. Just the annual debt service bill is enough to pay for federal transfers to the provinces for health, education, welfare, equalization and old age security for a year. It is enough to pay for all Canadian hospitals, physicians and drug costs for an entire year. It is enough to provide every poor child in Canada with a $30,000 a year endowment.

It is the interest on the federal debt that is eating the heart out of the social transfers. It is no accident that since 1993 debt service charges have increased by $7.5 billion a year and that since 1994 government has reduced health and social transfers to the provinces by $7 billion.

The excessive federal debt, like private debt, limits freedom. It limits the freedom of governments to pursue social as well as economic goals. The federal government would have at least the option of committing more resources to health, education, and pensions if this huge percentage of its annual budget was not consumed by interest payments.

If the federal debt were reduced and stabilized, funding for essential services would be stabilized and assured. The government and people of Canada would have more social and economic freedom and we would stop mortgaging the future of young Canadians.

Lower debt is the key to social security for both the current and future generations of Canadians. I would suggest to those members of this House who profess to have enlightened social consciences, who profess to be moved by social arguments, that if they care for the poor, the sick, the old and the young, then they should be the most committed members in this House to the reduction of the federal debt.

Let me look at the negative social impacts of excessive taxation. We have made arguments in this House before that excessive taxes reduce disposable incomes of business and are the greatest factor in killing jobs. There is a connection between the fact that we have higher taxation levels than our principal trading partners and the fact that we have 1.4 million people unemployed, two to three million underemployed and one of the highest youth unemployment rates in the world. If a good job with a good income is the best guarantee of economic and social security, then it is excessive taxation in this country which is undermining the economic and social security for millions of Canadians.

I want to discuss a further dimension of excessive taxation. It has a particularly onerous and insidious impact on the most vulnerable among us, the young, the old and the poor. Under this federal government's tax policies a single mother with one child and an income of $15,000 pays $1,364 in income tax. I ask, what is the government doing taking one paycheque out of 12 from a single mother with one child making $15,000 a year?

The federal government starts taxing people at lower income levels, $6,500 a year, than either Britain where it starts at $9,000 a year, or the United States where it starts at $9,500 a year. Canada has one of the lowest first bite levels, the level at which personal income tax kicks in, in the industrial world. It is far lower than those in Hong Kong, Sweden, France, Switzerland, Japan, the U.S., Germany, Belgium, Italy and Spain. In fact taxpayers in most countries are permitted to earn upward of $15,000 before they begin paying taxes. Not in Canada and we ask, why not?

This government rips $1.8 billion out of the pockets of people making less than $15,000 a year. The government takes $11.2 billion out of the pockets of almost eight million taxpayers making less than $30,000 a year.

The government, and we have heard this from the ministers, accepts Statistics Canada's low income cutoff figures as measures of the number of Canadians living in poverty. But here is the amount of revenue the federal government collects from these very people whom it claims to recognize as living in poverty or near poverty.

According to Statistics Canada, the low income cutoff for a single individual was around $17,000 a year. Taxation statistics show us that in 1995, which is the year for the latest data, there were almost 3.4 million taxpayers earning less than $17,000 a year, or that were in this low income position. What did the federal government do for them? It taxed them to the tune of $2.3 billion. These are people the government itself says are living in poverty.

The low income cutoff for a family of four in the same city was about $32,000. There were over 8.2 million taxpayers earning less than $32,000. What did the federal government do? It taxed those people to the tune of $12.5 billion. It took $12.5 billion in taxes from people its own statistics define as living in poverty or near poverty.

My point is that the tax policies and practices of the federal government hurt lower income people as well as middle and higher income people. The greatest single thing this government can do to help the poor is not to develop another program for poverty and not to develop another program on child poverty but simply to get its hands out of the pockets of lower income people and leave them more money.

Enough statistics. To illustrate this point more effectively, I want to read to the House a letter I received from a New Brunswick mother of four in February 1997. Her name is Kim Hicks. She lives near Sackville, New Brunswick and she and her family are with us today in the gallery.

I receive some 2,000 letters a month on average, but her letter was one of the best I have ever received. I want to share it with the House. It is dated February 27, 1997:

Dear Mr. Manning:

Hello, first of all my name is Kim Hicks. I am married and we have four children aged 2-8 years. My husband is the breadwinner in our family and our income is $29,000 to $30,000 a year approximately. Last year, 1996, our income was a little over $33,000 because we withdrew our RRSPs, my husband worked a lot of overtime and took his vacation pay without a vacation, which means that we now owe $900 in income tax, and lose money on our GST and child tax benefit which we depend on to get by.

My concern is this. We feel as though we are drowning with no sign of relief in sight. I have talked to other families in the same situation and they feel the same way. It seems as though people like us are forgotten. We are not considered working poor, but we sure don't feel middle class.

I know you are probably thinking that I am a whining lazy stay at home mom, who was irresponsible in having four children, but we love them dearly and we want to do what we feel is best for them and that is why I stay at home. Truthfully sometimes we do feel that we were irresponsible but my husband works hard. Also we live in an area outside Sackville, New Brunswick and it would not be easy to get child care or transportation. I have no special skills and cannot afford to upgrade my working skills and quite frankly I feel that at this point in time my kids need me at home, not that by any means I look down on working women. I don't, I sometimes envy them. I'm sorry there is so much that I want to say but don't quite know how.

We feel resentment toward the politicians and afraid to be Canadians.

My husband says maybe we should go on welfare, at least then we would have health care and dental benefits. We do manage to buy some health care, but for how long we don't know. It seems as though only people with incomes under $26,000 a year and those on welfare need help, and that is not true. There are other families who need help. We want our kids to grow up feeling proud of their country and to feel secure, but it's not going to happen. For us who fall just above the $26,000 mark less seems better, then maybe we wouldn't have to worry that because we make $29,000 or $30,000 we might lost our child tax benefit.

We need that benefit or else we would lose our home. Our kids won't be going to the dentist this year, but the child down the road, whose mom is on welfare, will. We have refinanced and refinanced and we just can't do it any more. We live on credit because we do not have enough clear money to use money. Pay the needed payment and then borrow it over. We are sick of it. People with four kids who make $30,000 a year are poor too, but our kids don't count. By the time we pay our taxes our $29,000 to $30,000 is a joke. We are afraid that we are going down and there is nothing we can do.

Promises and empty talk—we are sick of it. We are trying to be a family in a time when family means squat. Also now with this new HST we will pay more for our kids' clothing, heat, power, telephone. We don't buy big ticket items. We pray our washer will wash one more load, and that it will be nice out so that we can put our clothes on the line to save on electricity and so that the squeaky drier will be there when we need it. We, again, are going to lose and so will our kids.

I'm sorry for this long letter. I really don't know what I expect. I wrote to Mr. Axworthy when he was human resources minister. I got an I'm sorry and an I understand and a lot of statistics that I don't care about. It won't help us feed or clothe our kids.

Please don't send me one of those short form letters saying that you're sorry. Also please don't tell me to contact my MLA or premier—they don't care.

Thank you for your time. Sincerely,

Kim Hicks

Are members moved by that letter? What do we say to Kim Hicks and others like her? What does the government have to say? What does the finance minister have to say? What does the finance committee report have to say? Would this create a great impression in that home if it were sent in a paper envelope to that family? Here is the answer to your problems. We know what kind of reaction it would get.

When I first read this I was at a loss for words. That is quite an admission from a politician. Let me tell the House what I finally did.

I wrote Kim back, thanking her, assuring her she was not alone. I wondered whether anything I could say would help. My letter was almost apologetic.

I then shared with her, briefly, the tax relief section of our fresh start election platform. We were working on it at that time. I pointed out that under those tax relief measures she and her husband would receive $2,500 to $3,000 in tax relief. In effect, a family like this would have been removed from the federal income tax rolls altogether.

I did not hear back from Kim, but I carried her letter around with me through the 1997 federal election campaign. I read it to public audiences in a number of places.

After it was over I wrote her again and I told Kim that we were not the government but we were now the official opposition. I asked her if she and her family would do a little research project for us. I would send her a research contract and a cheque from party funds for $3,000 plus. What I asked her to do was to pretend that the cheque came from Revenue Canada as a tax refund. I asked her to pretend it was a $3,000 tax refund from Revenue Canada, as if our tax relief measures had been implemented and applied to the 1996 tax year.

Incidentally, we had to send her $3,000 plus. Why? To cover the income tax she would have to pay on the $3,000 so that her net refund would be $3,000.

Then I asked Kim to do two things. I asked her to write two more letters, one telling us how she and her husband Wayne spent the $3,000. What would she do with it if she got it from Revenue Canada? I also asked her to tell me frankly what impact, if any, this had on her feelings of entrapment and despair.

I now want to read into the record the first of those two letters received from Kim. Before I do, let me give members a little quiz. If they have a pad in front of them they might just jot down a few notes.

How do they think a mother of four would spend that refund of $3,000? Do they believe she would spend it all? Do they think she would save a portion? What do they think she would spend it on? What would be the allocation? Do they think she would spend it wisely or foolishly? Do they think she would spend it more wisely than the federal government could spend it on her behalf? We will let the members be the judge.

This is her first letter, dated July 23, 1997:

Dear Mr. Manning:

The following letter describes how my family spent the $3,000 in tax relief that we received “from Revenue Canada”.

She was willing to play the game.

My husband and I carefully looked at how to best use the money and we decided that the best plan for us was to divide the money into a spend category and a savings category. We divided the money $2,000 and $1,000.

The $2,000 we spent as follows:

  1. The first thing this money enabled us to do was to pay our two older boys' dentist bill and gave us the amount needed for our two younger sons' trip to the dentist.

  2. The next thing we did was to set aside $200 for one of our son's visits to the optometrist in October, and to have a new pair of glasses which are badly needed.

  3. We bought the extra wood that we will need for the winter.

  4. We paid off one of our credit card balances thereby easing our monthly payment load, which in turn gives us a bit more money to use toward other bills.

  5. The boys and I went shopping for back to school clothing and I set aside money for their school books.

  6. I took a trip to the grocery store and bought the items that we needed but could not afford to buy with our weekly grocery money.

  7. I paid my mother back the money that she has loaned us over the past few months when we have found ourselves in a bind owing over $800 in income taxes.

  8. Lastly we decided to take $200 of the money and to spend it any way we wished. We bought Kentucky Fried Chicken and we went to see the movie “George of the Jungle”. My husband, along with his regular hours, has had to start working Saturday mornings and also two to three evenings a week to help make ends meet. He only takes one week of his vacation and we use the other week's vacation pay to buy wood. What this means is that we have never taken a vacation trip with our children, but this year we are taking the $125 left from the $2000 and we are driving to Pictou, taking the ferry to P.E.I. and driving back across the bridge to N.B. It feels great.

With the other $1,000 that we have left, we for now have put it into a savings account to use in the case of an emergency or to hopefully buy an RRSP, which would give us a start at some future savings.

That in a nutshell is how we spent the $3,000 sent to us by Revenue Canada. I am looking forward to writing my next letter.

Sincerely,

Kim Hicks.

I can look at that letter as a husband and parent or I can look at it as a former management consultant and economist, but notice that her savings rate is over 33%. If I asked some economist friends of mine what they thought the savings rate would be of a family in the $30,000 a year category, they would never guess that it would be 33%.

Notice that her highest priority expenditure is meeting the medical and educational needs of her children. Notice the commitment to debt reduction. There is more commitment to debt reduction in this letter than there is from a government that receives $150 billion a year. She pays down her loans and her credit card balances.

Note the spending on essentials, wood and groceries for the family. Note the desire to have an RRSP. There is a lot of criticism when we talk about expanding the RRSP about people at the lower and income level not wanting it or understanding it. Here is a family earning $30,000 willing to save to put into an RRSP. Notice the $200, 7%, for a little fun.

Is there any member in this House, any bureaucrat at human resources development or finance, who has the nerve to stand up and say they could have spent that money more wisely or more socially responsibly?

Some of the social engineers on the other side of the House or among the Bloc or the NDP might argue that some government could design a program complete with legislation, forms and armies of bureaucrats and social workers which would deliver $1,000 to that family for debt relief, $1,000 through another program for child, dental and optometrist care, and $500 to $1,000 through some other program for essentials. However, there would be one problem with that. It would probably cost us $30,000 per family to administer.

In this case, we got exactly the same results, not with another program but simply by leaving—and this is so pathetically simple—$3,000 of this family's own money in their own pockets instead of collecting it in taxes.

This reminds me of that famous quote from Adam Smith in his Wealth of Nations , which I think is applicable to social capital as well as industrial capital:

The statesman, who should attempt to direct private people in what manner they ought to employ their capitals, would not only load himself with a most unnecessary attention, but assume an authority which could safely be trusted, not only to no single person, but to no council or senate whatever, and which would nowhere be so dangerous as in the hands of a man who had folly and presumption enough to fancy himself fit to exercise it.

How did this tax relief make this family feel? Frankly, I confess that when I wrote this letter to Kim and made this proposition I was pretty sceptical, given the feelings she expressed in that first letter, that the $3,000 would make much of a difference. I thought it would just be a drop in the bucket and not enough to do anything. However, I want members to be the judge. This is her last letter in response to my request:

Dear Mr. Manning,

I would be happy to explain to you how receiving $3,000 in tax relief “from Revenue Canada” has made my family feel both now and for the future.

I say to the officials of Revenue Canada if they did more of this they would get letters like this.

The first feeling my husband and I experienced was a sense of relief. It was as if a weight had been lifted from our shoulders and we could finally catch our breath.

It meant that we could have the money for those things that kept having to be overlooked such as trips to the dentist, borrowed money that couldn't be paid back, or a simple family trip.

It meant for the first time in a very long while that we could have some guilt-free fun. By this I mean we actually took our children to the movies and out for supper without sitting there worrying about “how are we going to get the money to replace what we just spent, when we didn't have it to spend in the first place?”.

But most importantly, after the initial feeling of relief, we felt less pressure and worry.

As a family struggling to get by there is a lot of guilt and insecurity associated with the pressure of just trying to make ends meet when there is a lack of money.

My husband feels guilty because, even though he works hard, he still feels that as a provider he lets his family down, not only financially but time wise also. I feel guilty because as a stay at home mom I sometimes feel I am robbing my family of income we could have if I held a job.

All this guilt affects our family life—the way we feel, the tension and stress. We do manage to keep our emotions and worry in check, most times, in hopes that we will not cause our children to feel as we do, although I know there are times when they feel as we do—receiving this money made my husband and me feel a lot less guilty. I actually saw a happier, more relaxed man, which in turn made our family more carefree and closer than we have been in a while. I'm not saying that money in itself solves problems, but it helps to relieve the pressures caused by a lack of it and that in turn helps to give us a brighter outlook and a happier family.

Mr. Manning, as I write this letter I feel really great because I know that we have provided some of the things that our children needed, which prior to receiving our tax relief cheque we simply could not do. I have gone to sleep at night with a feeling of being more secure because I know that our kids have been better taken care of and that if a problem should arise we do have money set aside in a savings account. It feels great to know that we have fewer bills and that because we do not have to borrow money or take from other needs, we will be able to hold on, and that the money won't be so tight, and in time we will be ahead. And that means, to us, a brighter future.

It makes my husband and me feel a sense of encouragement knowing that we have someone in government who understands our needs and our struggles as a family, and who realizes the heavy tax burden that a family like mine carries, and is trying to help, and that gives us a sense of hope for our future and our children's future. Our children can grow up knowing that Canada is wonderful and that they have a government who cares, not one that will squeeze every last cent out of their paycheques.

We feel that we have to have this tax relief. We really carry too much tax burden. Recently my husband asked his boss for a raise and, to us, he received a substantial raise of $44/week, that is until he received his paycheque and realized he had lost $27 of the $44. Mr. Manning, $24.18 went to Federal Taxes alone! Do you understand why I cannot say enough about why a $3,000 tax relief is needed? Families like my own do not want the $3,000 for frivolous spending; we need it to maintain a half-decent standard of life for our families, and $3,000 is a substantial amount of money.

In closing, I just want to stress again that this $3,000 meant relief and security and a bit more freedom for us. If my family and families like mine could look forward to this $3,000 tax relief each year, it would, I am sure, restore some faith in our government and it would relieve a lot of guilt, pressure, and worry from our lives. We could provide more of the things our families need, both necessities and even leisure.

Extra income in our pocket would give us a sense of security. We could actually see some light at the end of the tunnel, so to speak. I know in my case it has helped to take away some of the desperation I feel. It has definitely made our lives easier and has made us feel happier and even encouraged. There is great pleasure in feeling that you have provided for your family a little bit better.

I am going to close now. I hope—that I have answered your question sufficiently. Thank you once again for the privilege of allowing my family to participate in this research project.

Note the references to feelings of relief, security and freedom: relief from worry, relief from guilt, security, better able to sleep at night, hope for the future and freedom. I wonder how many letters Revenue Canada gets like that. Is it not about time we started generating some letters like that for Revenue Canada?

On behalf of members of Parliament I thank Kim Hicks; her husband, Wayne; and her children, Matthew, Brandon, Nathan and Luke for sharing their hearts and their lives with us. It is not easy to do and we thank you for putting it down on paper.

There are hundreds of thousands of families in Canada like Kim's earning $30,000 a year or less from whom the federal government is collecting $11.2 billion a year. Is there any member of the House who still believes that tax relief, especially for lower and middle income families, is not a socially responsible thing to do?

I began my remarks with a reference to the Christmas story as told in the New Testament. The heart of my remarks has really been the Kim Hicks story which ought to move us to tears as well as to action.

I want to end this address with one more story that will perhaps reduce the Minister of Finance to tears or induce him to action. It is a modern adaptation of Dickens Christmas Carol with particular reference to the issue before the House.

Once upon a time there was a finance minister named Scrooge. To borrow a few adjectives from Dickens, he was a squeezing, wrenching, grasping, scraping, clutching, covetous old finance minister. His one great passion in life was taxes, and as the year drew to an end he would spend the last part of it, particularly the Christmas season, laying plans for new taxes he wanted to impose in the new year.

Scrooge had a humble clerk named Bob Hatchet. Hatchet assisted the minister in cutting spending but desperately wanted to apply his tools to cutting taxes. This particular year Hatchet came to Scrooge with the revelation that he, Scrooge, was collecting $1.8 billion a year from the poorest families in the land. “Would it not” said Hatchet “be a great act of social and fiscal responsibility to cut taxes for these people and to announce it at Christmas, effective for the new year?”

What was the response of finance minister Scrooge to this proposal? He replied as he always did to requests for tax relief by saying “Bah, humbug” and by saying further “every idiot who goes about with tax relief on his lips, especially at Christmastime, should be boiled in his own pudding and buried with a stake of holly through his heart”.

To add force to his words, he told Hatchet and his other officials that not only would there be no tax relief this Christmas, but starting January 1 he would commence collecting the first instalment of a 76% hike in payroll taxes. “Tax relief, bah, humbug” said finance minister Scrooge, and with that he went home for Christmas.

Then it was Christmas Eve. Picture this. Scrooge had retired early. To induce sleep some people count sheep but not Scrooge. He counted the tax increases that he had been responsible for: the tax on life insurance premiums extended, the increased clawback on OAS, the excise tax on gasoline, et cetera, et cetera. He had just got up to tax increase number 37 when he fell into a fitful slumber.

Scrooge knew not how long he had slumbered but suddenly he was awakened by a strange clanking sound. To his horror, the door of his room flew open and there stood a ghostly apparition. The thing was dragging a huge chain behind it to which were bound immense volumes of the Canadian Income Tax Act and its regulations.

“Who are you” cried finance minister Scrooge, to which the apparition replied in a ghoulish voice “I am the ghost of taxes past. My name is Sir William Thomas White. I too was once finance minister of Canada. When I was alive I introduced the Income War Tax Act in 1917. It was only 12 pages long. It was temporary. It was a tiny tax. But I added to it and my successors added to it, until it became a monster. Now I am condemned to haunt the halls of parliament, forever dragging great volumes of the Income Tax Act and its regulations behind me”.

Scrooge was alarmed, for he too had forged many links in the chain of taxation. “Is this my fate too” he cried. “Not necessarily” said the spirit. “All will depend on what you learn from the visits of my fellow spirits, the ghost of taxes present and the ghost of taxes future”. With that, the apparition disappeared.

Finance minister Scrooge tried to pull himself together. Surely this was a bad dream, he told himself, a Reformish nightmare of some sort; perhaps the product of indigestion; perhaps a bad pickle at the parliamentary restaurant. He settled down to sleep but in a few moments he was jolted awake again by the loud honking of a horn.

At first he thought it was the sound of a Panamanian freighter and he smiled serenely, but suddenly the door to his bedroom flew open and there stood another ghostly figure. “I am here to take you for a ride” said the ghost of taxes present. “But I don't want to go for a ride” said finance minister Scrooge. “That's what they all say” said the apparition who hurried him down the stairs, out of the house and into a waiting cab, a taxicab.

As soon as they were in, the doors locked shut. The meter began to run. It ran wild as the ghost of taxes present directed the driver to their destination. The ghost of taxes present took finance minister Scrooge to visit businesses small and large where payroll taxes were cursed out loud day after day by both employers and employees. They visited shops where the hated GST was funnelling millions of dollars out of the pockets of shopkeepers.

The ghost of taxes present took finance minister Scrooge to home after home, homes where there were sick people, homes where there were poor people, homes where there were old people, homes of the middle class, all homes where Scrooge's taxes were squeezing the life out of men, women, children and families. Scrooge tried to get out of the cab but the doors were locked. The meter kept spinning wildly, the taxi meter: $50 billion, $75 billion, $100 billion, $125 billion.

The taxi stopped once more outside a house which Scrooge recognized as the humble abode of his assistant Bob Hatchet. Inside he saw poor Bob talking earnestly to his son, Tiny Tim. He was trying to explain how the working income supplement component of Scrooge's child tax benefit, when applied to Scrooge's harmonized goods and services tax, would actually reduce the effective tax rate on crutches and candy canes to less than 10%.

But Tiny Tim would have none of it. Holding his head in his hands the little fellow ran round the room crying “God save us, everyone, from finance minister Scrooge”.

“Dread Spirit” cried finance minister Scrooge “where will all this end? What is the fate of these poor overtaxed businesses, these poor overtaxed families like Tiny Tim's? What will happen to their lives and their dreams?” “You will soon see” said the ghost of taxes present.

Scrooge found himself once again in the taxicab, hurtling this time down a lonely country road. The night was dark and dreary, black clouds blotted out the moon and stars. The taxi slowly came to a halt. The door was slowly opened by yet another ghostly figure. Finance minister Scrooge shuddered, the ghost of taxes future. This apparition was faceless, dressed all in black. He said not a word but motioned toward the gate of what Scrooge perceived to be a vast cemetery.

Scrooge shivered as the faceless spirit led him past a long line of tombstones, announcing in a sepulchral voice “Here lie the businesses killed by taxation. Here lie the jobs killed by high taxes. Here lie the charities killed by high taxes, which shrivelled the spirit of charity”. “Oh, spare me” cried Scrooge, but the spirit led him on “In this vast plot lie all the dreams: the dreams of entrepreneurs, the dreams of homemakers, the dreams of business people, the dreams of youth, the dreams of Tiny Tim, all killed by the clammy hand of overtaxation”.

“Oh, show me no more ” cried finance minister Scrooge. “I see the light. I will re-examine my policies but tell me, dread spirit, how is it that even dreams can be killed by taxation?” “Even the loftiest of dreams can be killed by taxation” said the ghost of taxes future. “Look” and with this he pointed bony finger toward a huge marble monument, a tomb of some sort on which was inscribed a long list of names.

Scrooge strained to read the names: Sir William Thomas White, James Lorimer Ilsley, Douglas Charles Abbott, Donald Methuen Fleming, Walter Lockhart Gordon, Edgar John Benson, John C. Crosbie, Michael Holcombe Wilson. The list went on and on.

Scrooge gasped as he recognized the names, all former finance ministers of Canada. “But why, dread sprit, are their names inscribed on this tomb in this cemetery of dreams?” “Because” said the ghost of taxes future “their great dream was to become prime minister and their dream was killed by their high tax policies”.

Let us leave finance minister Scrooge standing before that great monument to broken dreams and let the government determine whether this story has a happy or a mournful ending.

Will finance minister Scrooge dismiss the warnings of the ghosts of taxes past, present and future and continue his high taxing ways? Or, will he listen to the voices of social and fiscal responsibility, the voices of Reform, the voices of mothers like Kim Hicks, the voices of millions of Canadians, and make debt and tax relief his new priorities?

It is the objective of the official opposition to persuade him to take the latter course.

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Reform

Randy White Reform Langley—Abbotsford, BC

Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order. We heard a speech from the leader of this nation's opposition that should serve as a guideline to government for decades to come, and it should—

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The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland)

With respect, is this a point of order?

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Reform

Randy White Reform Langley—Abbotsford, BC

It is.

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The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland)

Will you get to it immediately.

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Reform

Randy White Reform Langley—Abbotsford, BC

Mr. Speaker, I refer you to Beauchesne's sixth edition, citations 280 and 281, and the Constitution Act, section 48. While this nation was listening to the leader of the official opposition we at best had two Liberal MPs in the House of Commons.

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The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland)

This would be a stretch to be a point of order. As the hon. member knows, it is not customary to refer to the presence or absence of members in the Chamber.

It is my duty, pursuant to Standing Order 38, to inform the House that the questions to be raised tonight at the time of adjournment are as follows: the hon. member for Bras d'Or, Devco; the hon. member for Red Deer, Foreign Affairs; the hon. member for St. Albert, Aboriginal Affairs; the hon. member for Charlotte, Summa Strategies; the hon. member for Frontenac—Mégantic, Dairy Industry.

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Bloc

Odina Desrochers Bloc Lotbinière, QC

Mr. Speaker, I wish to inform you that I will be sharing my time with the hon. member for Bonaventure—Gaspé—Îles-de-la-Madeleine—Pabok.

On October 15 in Vancouver, the Minister of Finance presented his government's economic policies to the Canadian public. The finance committee held fifty or so meetings with socioeconomic stakeholders and members of the public in order to find out what they thought, but the democratic process ends there.

Having being rushed along on a tight timetable and having seen large extracts of the finance committee's report in the Toronto media, we realized that all that was missing from the committee's document was the cover page from the Liberals' last election campaign red book.

Once again the Liberals have shown that they have no respect for democracy and could not care less about the opposition parties, including the Bloc Quebecois.

The Liberals used the pre-budget consultations to try to show that the public was in favour of their economic policies. This Liberal report is just another step in the maple leaf marketing plan announced with great fanfare in the Speech from the Throne.

The Bloc Quebecois is familiar with the Liberals' partisan tactics and made sure to table a dissenting report so that our party's opinion would be known and not drowned out in this vast federal operation.

As we all know, we are here solely to defend Quebec's interests. We in the Bloc Quebecois again call on the Minister of Finance to pay the provinces, particularly Quebec, what he owes them. Before going ahead with other measures involving national standards that would interfere with provincial areas of jurisdiction, this government must treat its provincial partners fairly and return to them the amounts it has relieved them of since 1993, significant amounts despite what the Minister of Finance says.

For Quebec, this means that, if the Minister of Finance wanted to be generous, he would write out a nice cheque for $5 billion. Dream on. We no longer believe in Santa Claus or in the federal government's little helpers. We know that, even though this government comes dressed in the traditional red of the jolly gentleman himself, it is a Santa without a heart.

Over the last few months, this scrooge in Santa's clothing has deprived dozens of Quebec parents of their fundamental rights by slashing EI benefits. Even as the holiday season approaches, the Minister of Finance and his side-kick in human resources development are all in favour of these decisions, which I still describe as inhumane. They still refuse to budge and admit that their wonderful employment insurance scheme is a failure and that they should start calling it poverty insurance.

Instead of having compassion for the least well off in our society, this government continues to listen to Toronto's Bay Street magnates. The Minister of Finance keeps saying that his government is doing a good job and that, next year, it will have a surplus. What he does not say is that this accounting operation has been accomplished on the backs of the provinces and the most disadvantaged.

The federal government ought to stimulate job creation and to lead an all-out attack against poverty. The Bloc Quebecois and the numerous stakeholders in Quebec are demanding an in-depth reform of personal and corporate income tax.

The last major review of corporate tax dates back to the 1960s. I hardly need tell you that the tax measures are out of date and unsuited to the present economic context. The Minister of Finance, however, is content with it. The same goes for personal income tax. The minister is operating with measures that no longer meet the needs of individuals.

The Bloc Quebecois proposals, in a spirit of re-establishing social justice, would allow the majority of taxpayers to benefit from a tax reduction. For example, the creation of a reimbursable credit for child care expenses would allow a single parent with one child and an income of $20,000 to save an additional $600 plus. That is a concrete social measure.

The Reform Party is talking of decreasing income and other taxes. First of all, it shouldo do as the Bloc Quebecois has done, and demand a major reform of a federal tax system that is very ill suited to the current economic context.

Every time the auditor general tables a report, he points out to the federal government the shortcomings of its taxation system. We need only think about the scandal of the family trusts and the use of subsidiaries in tax havens, which the Minister of Finance in fact uses to reduce his taxes.

The prebudget consultations clearly show, once again, that there are two irreconcilable visions. The federal government wants to centralize everything, establish national standards and continue to infringe on the exclusive rights of the provinces. Quebec wants to fight for its independence and speaks out increasingly in an effort to force the Liberal government to respect provincial jurisdictions.

The current situation is as follows, and I will recall it for you: Canada comprises two peoples, the Canadian people and the Quebec people. However, the people of Quebec are making themselves heard increasingly, and Quebeckers are living in hope. They know that very soon they will no longer be part of this completely outmoded federal system, a Trudeauist government whose grand master never hid his disdain for the provinces. Trudeauism is personified in this House by the minister of provincial interference.

In conclusion, this government takes every opportunity to twist its own Constitution and meddle in fields under Quebec jurisdiction. It is obsessed with making its presence felt. In Quebec, however, the fleur de lys is engraved on the hearts of Quebeckers and with this symbol of pride they will fend off the underhanded attacks of the federal government saying with one voice: “Yes to a sovereign Quebec; yes to all economic powers serving Quebec”.

FinanceGovernment Orders

5:05 p.m.

Bloc

Yvan Bernier Bloc Bonaventure—Gaspé—Îles-De-La-Madeleine—Pabok, QC

Mr. Speaker, I know I speak next, but I am most anxious to ask a question of my colleague, the member for Lotbinière.

My colleague has, as it were, travelled across Canada with the Standing Committee on Finance, even though he himself sits on the public accounts committee. He has therefore heard some horror stories this fall, particularly in the maritimes and eastern Quebec.

I am sure that, when he was there, my colleague heard the stories of fishermen and the problems they are having with EI. I will tell one of his stories.

People on TAGS have been saddled with a new two-tier system. When they reach an income level of $26,000, they must pay back all the EI they have received.

This government wants to encourage people to get out and work. Imagine that you are a fisherman, that you have been on the program all year, but that, this fall, you have a chance to go back to catching herring, say, or to get involved in an experimental sea urchin fishery. All the money you make from the catch must go back to the government. This is no kind of incentive.

I am sure my colleague has heard other horror stories and I would like him to tell us—it must have been something when they wrote their report—about the mechanism for setting the provision. They say in the report that they will set a provision for expenses but, if the forecasts are not right, they will not be able to transfer amounts to programs. Does he know anything about how this mechanism? Can he tell us the Liberals' untold horror stories? I would like to hear what my hon. colleague has to say.

FinanceGovernment Orders

5:10 p.m.

Bloc

Odina Desrochers Bloc Lotbinière, QC

Mr. Speaker, when I visited the maritime provinces, especially Newfoundland, despair and frustration were everywhere.

When we consider that there is only one official, we can see how serious the federal government is. There was only one official to plan this program, which is a real fiasco, a real nightmare for the people. The people were not consulted and were forced to undergo training for which they had no skills or abilities.

This is how the federal government is trying to tell Newfoundland that it wants to help. The premier of Newfoundland, who used to sit in this House, has difficulty promoting the cause of the federal government. His star is fading, like all the other federal stars across Canada.

As for that famous report, as I said, all that is missing is the cover of the Liberal red book. Everything else is the same. Everything that could help the communities, everything that could help the underprivileged was removed. The only thing on their mind is Bay Street in Toronto and the rich; they have forgotten their social conscience.

FinanceGovernment Orders

5:10 p.m.

Bloc

Yvan Bernier Bloc Bonaventure—Gaspé—Îles-De-La-Madeleine—Pabok, QC

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to speak on this subject today, but I am sad to see the lack of empathy from the Liberal government over there.

Allow me to explain. When I was young, I was told that the Liberal Party was the party that had created social programs, the party that thought about the most disadvantaged.