Debates of Dec. 10th, 1997

Federalism

[Rick Borotsik, Progressive Conservative, Brandon—Souris, MB]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Prime Minister.

We are very concerned with the Prime Minister's paternalistic approach to co-operative federalism. The Prime Minister's approach to co-operative federalism is to tell the premiers what to do and how to do it. The premiers have not agreed with the federal government's position on Kyoto, fiscal dividend, youth unemployment and transfer payments.

Is the Prime Minister prepared to listen to the premiers for once and not dictate federal policies?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, we had a meeting on child poverty a year and a half ago where we agreed to move on that together. They agreed that we were to put in $850 million and they said that the money they might save was to stay in the same field. There was no difficulty there.

On Kyoto, we had discussions with them. We invited the provincial ministers to come to Kyoto with our ministers. We are in discussions at this moment. We have had discussions. We had an agreement with some flexibility because they know that Canada cannot—

[The Speaker]

The hon. member for Brandon—Souris.

Search And Rescue

[Rick Borotsik, Progressive Conservative, Brandon—Souris, MB]

Mr. Speaker, my second question with some regret is for the Minister of National Defence.

The Minister of National Defence earlier in this House suggested that the Reform Party was playing politics with the helicopter acquisition. Well, the government has been playing politics since 1993. For the last 81 days, the minister has been saying “soon” to the purchase of the helicopters.

Will the Minister of National Defence tell us, are those helicopters, the EH-101s, to be purchased and when will they be purchased by this government?

[Art Eggleton, Liberal, Minister of National Defence]

Mr. Speaker, if the Conservative Party had not botched up the last arrangement, we might have been able to make a decision sooner.

Let me make it clear that there is no relationship between the question of purchasing helicopters and the tragic event that occurred in Manitoba. Helicopters were not used, private or any other kind of helicopters, with respect to that rescue mission because of the weather conditions that existed. What were used were fixed wing aircraft. Our Hercules aircraft in fact has carried out a magnificent rescue.

Environment

[Deborah Grey, Reform, Edmonton North, AB]

Mr. Speaker, the Prime Minister just talked about flexibility. His government is so flexible that it changed its mind now and it has abandoned its negotiating position on the whole Kyoto deal.

Now the government says it is going to sign any deal whatever it is, and it is going to further drastically cut emissions. Workers in the steel, the oil and gas and the coal industries want to know from this Prime Minister, why is he signing a deal that could lead to such terrible job losses for real people here in Canada?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, the people of Canada know that Canada is always responsible. I would like to quote what Mr. George, the president and CEO of Suncor, said: “As an energy producer, we believe we can reduce our greenhouse gas emissions without sacrificing the economy. We can lead in our own small way, showing that positive action can take place and setting an example for others to follow”.

[Deborah Grey, Reform, Edmonton North, AB]

Mr. Speaker, what we see here is a Prime Minister who is nervous. He will resort to anything. What we have seen also about this Kyoto deal, and yesterday in the House he said a real whopper, it will cost exactly the same amount for every single country that signs this deal. Some comfort that is to Canadian families and those who work at Suncor in Fort McMurray.

Why is the finance minister letting his boss sign a deal that could lead to so many job losses in these industries?

[The Speaker]

The hon. Prime Minister.

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

I am too nervous, Mr. Speaker. It is the first time in 35 years that I have been so nervous. But I have to tell you, Mr. Speaker, that we have a very reasonable position.

Goods And Services Tax

[Odina Desrochers, Bloc, Lotbinière, QC]

Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Finance.

Let us talk about the GST. The Bloc Quebecois has submitted a proposal whereby arbitration would be used to resolve the deadlock that has arisen on the issue of the $2 billion in compensation for harmonizing the GST in Quebec. Yesterday, Bernard Landry officially reiterated that proposal to the Minister of Finance, but the minister again rejected arbitration.

Since this arbitration proposal does not cost anything to the federal government, and if the Minister of Finance is in fact right in his claims, why is the minister not jumping on this unique opportunity to prove that his federalism is fair?

[Paul Martin, Liberal, Minister of Finance]

Mr. Speaker, quite simply because Quebec did not lose any money. Compensation cannot be offered if there was no loss of money, as shown by data not only from Statistics Canada but also from the Government of Quebec.

[Odina Desrochers, Bloc, Lotbinière, QC]

Mr. Speaker, the minister's attempt to avoid the issue is not fooling anyone. Why is he refusing a solution that would solve the matter once and for all without any cost to him? If it is true, who is right? What exactly is he afraid of? What does the Minister of Finance have to lose?

[Paul Martin, Liberal, Minister of Finance]

Mr. Speaker, the member asked “who is right?”. I think it is Statistics Canada and the person who provided the data from Quebec. Quebec did not lose any money.

Moreover, Quebec did not harmonize in the same way and did not accept the same constraints as the other provinces.

Taxation

[Monte Solberg, Reform, Medicine Hat, AB]

Mr. Speaker, earlier this year I received a letter from Alice Straeleff of Abbotsford, B.C. Alice makes a little over $16,000 a year. Despite taking out a small RRSP, she had to mortgage her mobile home to pay her $800 income tax bill to the finance minister.

The minister likes to talk a lot about balance. I want to know where is the balance in forcing someone like Alice Straeleff to mortgage her mobile home to pay the taxman?

[Paul Martin, Liberal, Minister of Finance]

Mr. Speaker, this government has already made very clear its desire not only to reduce taxes but the fact that it has already begun to do so.

The position of the Reform Party has been, and I would ask the hon. member if he is prepared to confirm it, that it did not want to reduce taxes until such time as the deficit has been eliminated. The deficit has not been eliminated. Therefore I suggest that the member himself might want to answer that question.

[Monte Solberg, Reform, Medicine Hat, AB]

Mr. Speaker, the finance minister knows full well the Reform Party would reduce taxes by $2,000 for the average family of four. That is the Reform Party platform. We do not know what the government wants to do.

Low income people in Canada are taxed at a higher rate than in any other country in the G-7. Low income people. That is the government's version of compassion.

I want to know again, and this is for Alice Straeleff who is watching today, where is the balance in forcing someone like Alice to pay $800 and mortgage her mobile home to pay his taxman?

[Paul Martin, Liberal, Minister of Finance]

Mr. Speaker, if Alice is indeed watching this, then what she is entitled to know is why the Reform Party opposed the tax reductions this government brought in in the last budget. Why has the Reform Party as part of its program said it would not reduce taxes until the deficit was eliminated.

I also do not think that Alice or any other Canadian who watched the Reform Party during the first mandate try to eviscerate every social program in this country in the guise of deficit reduction believes the Reform Party cares a whit about low income Canadians.

Employment Insurance

[Paul Crête, Bloc, Kamouraska—Rivière-Du-Loup—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Mr. Speaker, through his reform, the Minister of Human Resources Development has made access to employment insurance more difficult and cut the number of weeks of benefits as well as the amount of benefits paid.

Will the minister admit that his reform has greatly increased poverty?

[Pierre Pettigrew, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development]

Mr. Speaker, no. I absolutely do not believe that our reform has increased poverty. On the contrary, I believe that our reform is contributing at present to the dynamism of the Canadian economy which is good news to everyone.

What I can say is that we are fully aware that this was a very important reform. That is why, within the employment insurance reform itself, we have included a follow-up process in order to gauge its impact and to ensure that, after one year of implementation, we will have a report we can discuss to see whether the reform meets the needs of Canadians.

[Paul Crête, Bloc, Kamouraska—Rivière-Du-Loup—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Mr. Speaker, does the minister think he could sell that technocratic speech to the people lined up at the food bank because they have been denied unemployment insurance?

[Pierre Pettigrew, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development]

Mr. Speaker, last year those same members of the Bloc Quebecois were telling us that employment insurance reform was going to add to the welfare rolls in Quebec to an incredible extent.

[Monique Guay, Bloc, Laurentides, QC]

That is true.

[Pierre Pettigrew, Liberal, Papineau—Saint-Denis, QC]

On the contrary, welfare in Quebec has been dropping for some time now.

Perhaps we need to see how Quebec is looking after these people through welfare, since many of the people in those bread lines need to be looked after by welfare. Everything is blamed on this reform, while we know very well where mistakes may have been made elsewhere and where other cuts have been made.

Taxation

[Jason Kenney, Reform, Calgary Southeast, AB]

Mr. Speaker, Bernice Lee runs a dry cleaning and mending shop in Edmonton while her husband Philip works on the side to help raise their four children.

Despite working from six in the morning until well into the night six days a week, she tells me that she is barely able to hang on. She told me that if it were not for the huge taxes that she has to pay, she could hire some extra help to take the pressure off her family.

Could the finance minister look Bernice Lee in the eyes and tell her why he believes that Ottawa knows better how to spend her money than she does?