Debates of Feb. 6th, 1997

Taxation

[Paul Martin, Liberal, Minister of Finance]

Mr. Speaker, first, the member asked me if I am prepared to table the document. The three pages I have are a summary. If all the measures were to be included, the document would be longer.

Do you want me to table the document? No? When you are ready, Mr. Speaker, I am prepared to do so.

As regards the employment RRSP program suggested by the member, this is not the first time such a suggestion has been made. I am prepared to examine the program. However, as the member must know, there is another angle, that is, RRSPs exist to protect the retirement system, that is, seniors' pensions. We have to ask ourselves the following question: Should we change the function of RRSPs, that is, put the retirement system at risk? We should debate this.

[Yvan Loubier, Bloc, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I have the Minister of Finance's answer to this question, because it was a question.

At the moment, we have the home buyers' plan. It enables people to draw on their RRSP in order to purchase their first home. Four years later, they have to start repaying what they borrowed at the rate of one thirteenth of the total amount a year over the next thirteen years.

In other words, taxpayers borrow from themselves. We are proposing exactly the same thing. Under an employment RRSP program, an unemployed taxpayer could create his own job with a start-up fund where he could take-

[The Speaker]

This is novel: I have the question here and the answer there. Please continue with your question.

[Yvan Loubier, Bloc, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC]

Since this would have no effect on the preparations for the taxpayer's retirement, is he prepared to implement an employment RRSP program, which could give a boost to over two thirds of the jobs created annually, which qualify as self-employment.

[Paul Martin, Liberal, Minister of Finance]

Mr. Speaker, two or three years ago, at the very start of our mandate, we looked at exactly seven options.

The vast majority of experts in the field, including most representatives of small and medium sized businesses in Canada, told us that it was more important to protect rather than risk the retirement system of these people. That would be the end result of the member's suggestion, in that it would put their retirement at risk by asking them to invest in businesses which could very well go bankrupt.

Public Documents

[Preston Manning, Reform, Calgary Southwest, AB]

Mr. Speaker, Dr. Jo Hauser of the health department shredded some documents in 1989. They included documents going back to 1982 when the Liberals were in power. Those documents could have explained why the blood system became tainted.

In 1993 Bob Fowler and John Anderson shredded memos that might have pointed to a high level cover-up at the defence department. In 1994 more key documents that could have shed light on the Somalia scandal were shredded, altered or hidden.

My question is for the Deputy Prime Minister. It is a very simple one. Is the shredding, hiding, altering or destruction of public documents such as these right or wrong?

[Sheila Copps, Liberal, Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of Canadian Heritage]

Mr. Speaker, the government certainly does not support the shredding of any such documents.

[Preston Manning, Reform, Calgary Southwest, AB]

Therefore I assume the Deputy Prime Minister is saying that such activity is wrong, Mr. Speaker. If that is the case, then surely the Deputy Prime Minister also agrees that people who are guilty of such wrongdoing should be held accountable. The information commissioner thinks so, but he says that he has not been given the power to hold public servants accountable for improperly destroying public documents or records.

My question is for the Deputy Prime Minister. Is the government willing to give the information commissioner the power to hold people who destroy evidence required by public inquiries, people like Jo Hauser, Bob Fowler and John Anderson, accountable for their actions?

[Sheila Copps, Liberal, Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of Canadian Heritage]

Mr. Speaker, any illegal shredding of documents should most properly be handled by the organization responsible for those kinds of criminal activities, the RCMP.

[Preston Manning, Reform, Calgary Southwest, AB]

Mr. Speaker, the government's handling of evidence shredders and the

Deputy Prime Minister's answer is another indication of the government's double standard when it comes to ethics.

The RCMP have been called in to investigate Jo Hauser's destruction of the Canadian blood committee files, but it is unlikely that the RCMP will be able to get anywhere near the Prime Minister's friend Bob Fowler. What is more, the RCMP said yesterday that destroying such documents may not even be a clearly established offence under the Canadian Criminal Code.

My question is for the Deputy Prime Minister. What concrete action will the government take to ensure that people who destroy evidence required by public inquiries are held accountable for their actions?

[Sheila Copps, Liberal, Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of Canadian Heritage]

Mr. Speaker, I most strongly object to the claim of the hon. member that somehow the RCMP would be precluded from doing its work because of the "friendship" between the Prime Minister and anyone. It is a very serious allegation to make against the RCMP.

I would hope that the member, along with all members of the House, will respect the fact that the RCMP is impartial and completely capable of carrying out its responsibilities.

Tobacco Legislation

[Pauline Picard, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Health.

We know that the Liberal caucus is divided regarding certain aspects of the tobacco legislation.

Given that the Minister of Health does not share the view of his colleague, the minister responsible for regional development in Quebec, does he still intend to maintain in his bill the tough restrictions on sponsoring by tobacco companies?

[David Dingwall, Liberal, Minister of Health]

Mr. Speaker, unfortunately the hon. member was not available to attend our national caucus meeting yesterday. The endorsement that I and the government have received for its tobacco package was overwhelming from all regions of the country.

With regard to the specifics, the hon. member knows that her colleague has participated on the committee and various recommendations have been made. Those recommendations are under review.

[Pauline Picard, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

Mr. Speaker, still, can the minister tell us whether his colleague's opposition to the bill changed the timetable?

[David Dingwall, Liberal, Minister of Health]

Mr. Speaker, my colleagues from across the country make a variety of representations, most of which are positive, to improve both the quality of the health of Canadians as well as the economic situation of the country.

I want to assure the hon. member that I take all viewpoints into consideration. I want to assure the hon. member we will adhere to the principles of Bill C-71.

Public Documents

[Deborah Grey, Reform, Beaver River, AB]

Mr. Speaker, the RCMP is investigating the destruction of the Canadian blood committee documents, files and tapes from 1982 to 1989. They would have explained why thousands of Canadians were infected with tainted blood. The shredding of public documents is extremely serious and all evidence shredders should be held accountable for their actions.

The Deputy Prime Minister just said she thinks it is a serious matter. She also said, let the RCMP do their work. That is exactly what we want.

My question is for the Deputy Prime Minister. Will the RCMP be called in to investigate the alleged evidence shredding of Bob Fowler and John Anderson?

[Douglas Young, Liberal, Minister of National Defence and Minister of Veterans Affairs]

Mr. Speaker, it is very interesting to hear the hon. member discuss alleged shredding.

For all of us to understand what has gone on in a number offices and a number of departments, perhaps what the hon. member is proposing is that RCMP operate the shredders right across the country, including perhaps the one in her office.

[Deborah Grey, Reform, Beaver River, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I am not sure what to thank the hon. member for.

Senior aides to former defence minister Kim Campbell have sworn affidavits that Bob Fowler and John Anderson shredded important memos that pointed to a high level cover-up in the department of defence. If these serious allegations are true, then Fowler and Anderson must be held accountable.

I will ask the Deputy Prime Minister again, and I hope that she gets on her feet and does not look like she is dazed by the headlights. The entire military in this country is under a cloud because of the behaviour-

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh.

[The Speaker]

The hon. member is going to give her question now.

[Deborah Grey, Reform, Beaver River, AB]

Mr. Speaker, we know about being dazed in the headlights in Beaver River and we saw an example of it right there. If this is unparliamentary I do not know where we are going in this place.

The entire military is under a complete cloud in this country because of the behaviour of a very select few people. When is the Deputy Prime Minister going to get to the bottom of this and set our Canadian Armed Forces free once and for all?

[Douglas Young, Liberal, Minister of National Defence and Minister of Veterans Affairs]

Mr. Speaker, I am amazed that the hon. member, who represents a party that has people sitting around her who have served honourably in the Canadian forces, would stand in her place and say that there is a cloud over everybody in the Canadian forces. You have no respect for the Canadian forces. You do not care-

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh.

[Deborah Grey, Reform, Beaver River, AB]

Shame on you.

[The Speaker]

I would ask hon. members to please address their remarks to the Chair.