Debates of Sept. 26th, 1997

Speech From The Throne

[Paul Forseth, Reform, New Westminster—Coquitlam—Burnaby, BC]

Madam Speaker, in the brief 10 minutes I was given I did touch, in broad generalities, about confidence in government, integrity and so forth.

To take one specific example from my riding, when I was a child going to school on the streets of New Westminster I did not see prostitutes standing at bus stops. There was a social context in my riding, and in most cities of this country, where street prostitution was not pervasive because there was a legal context which prohibited it.

We may not ever remove the problem of prostitution from our society, but the law changed and capacity creates its own demand. When this Parliament made the mistakes and changed the law, we now have street prostitution from one end of the country to the other.

In the last Parliament there was a fairly significant effort of the federal government to consult with the provinces and many reports were produced and many suggestions for particular amendments to the criminal law were made. One specific one that appears to have agreement from all attorneys general across the country is simply communicating for the purposes of obtaining sexual services in a public place. That specific offence should not merely be a summarial offence but it should be a hybrid offence. It should be an electable offence.

This would provide the needed tools to the local police forces and the flexibility they need to arrest if necessary and allow an offender to appear before a justice and be released on some kind of recognisance order. It also helps with the identification of those on the street.

This is a very minor first step and I introduced a private member's bill specific to this. I understand the previous justice minister acknowledged the need for this but gave the excuse of why he did not introduce that he was still consulting with the provinces.

It is time we begin to take some steps that all provinces across the country are asking for.

[Chuck Cadman, Reform, Surrey North, BC]

Madam Speaker, I am honoured to have this opportunity to respond to the throne speech, but first let me take this opportunity to thank the voters of Surrey North for showing their confidence in me.

Being new to this place I do not really know whether to be optimistic or cynical. Like most Canadians, I continue to have hope that each new Parliament will be an improvement but fear that we will again be disappointed when our government proceeds for political reasons rather than for the best interest for Canadians.

As an example, it did not take the previous minister of justice long to advance his gun control legislation, even though he did not bother to determine whether and how registration would discourage the criminal misuse of firearms. He stated repeatedly that he had consulted and that he had the support of Canadians. Perhaps he consulted with his leader's imaginary homeless friends because our aboriginal peoples consistently claim that they were not consulted, even though their treaty rights would be significantly affected.

Consultation with the various provincial authorities is also in question, as four provinces and two territories are presently before the courts challenging our federal government on this legislation.

In this week's throne speech the government talked of partnerships. It now states that the federal government cannot act alone. It is indeed unfortunate that the previous government did not understand this concept.

Then we have victim rights. On April 29, 1996, after encouragement and pressure from the Reform Party, the former minister of justice stated in this House: “Although steps have been made toward progress in recent years, they have been imperfect. There remains a great deal to be done”.

He promised to address this deficiency in our laws. It may come as a surprise but this hon. member either would not or could not carry through on his promise. We must assume one of two things. Either it was not a priority on his personal political agenda or he was overruled. Regardless, Canadians are still waiting.

It was with great disappointment that I noticed the almost complete absence of any substance toward rectifying the inadequacies of our criminal justice system in the throne speech. It is hoped that this government's priorities on justice have been inadvertently forgotten. Otherwise Canadians will also be greatly disappointed.

We now have a fresh new Minister of Justice. Once again Canadians anticipate the introduction and passage of much needed legislation. Hopefully she will be able to fulfil her promises regarding violent young offenders and victims of crime. Hopefully she will be interested in the pursuit of what is right for Canadians rather than what is right for the Liberal Party.

In the past Parliament many of the members opposite were most interested in passing legislation to provide alternative methods of sentencing. For example, Bill C-41 permitted conditional sentencing which, while useful in some cases, is applicable to even those who violently offend within our communities. Bill C-53 extended temporary absence provisions and Bill C-37 actually reduced the parole ineligibility for young offenders convicted of second degree murder in adult court.

But what did the government do for victims, those who have not deliberately decided to offend society's rules but just happen to be in the wrong place and the wrong time?

I have made my home in British Columbia since 1971. It is where my wife and I met 29 years ago, where we raised our family, where we work and where we pay our taxes.

Although my hometown of North Bay is not far from here, each time I fly here I pass directly over the place of my youth. Last week I was able to pick out the beaches where I swam, the wharf where I fished and the streets where I walked, played and cycled. I could not help but to think about that young man growing up and the twists and turns his life would take over the next 40 years which would put him in a jet plane flying to a seat in this House of Commons.

My life was not that much different from the lives of most Canadians of my generation. Violent crime was something we read or heard about, tragic events that happened to others. That all changed on October 18, 1992 when our 16-year old son went to a party and never came home. He was murdered on his way home in a random, unprovoked knife attack by a complete stranger, a young offender who was violating a court ordered curfew stemming from prior charges.

The next week in Courtenay, B.C. a six-year old girl was sexually assaulted and murdered by a sixteen-year old neighbour who was on probation for molesting a young child one year earlier. The anonymity provisions of the Young Offenders Act precluded neighbours from knowing the threat he posed.

Two weeks later in my community two women were butchered by a man who, because he said he was stoned on cocaine, received 10 years for manslaughter. He applied for parole last March. The grass is barely green on the graves of his victims, one of whom was pregnant while the other left three young children. The youngest, at the tender age of four years witnessed his mother's killing. Barely three months had passed before a Surrey doctor facing a hearing for sexual impropriety had the young complainant murdered. The hit man was free on bail after shooting a man in the face six months earlier.

Our family spent nearly two years before the courts. We have come to know many families of victims of violent crime and have followed many of their cases. It did not take very long to realize that our system of justice is seriously out of kilter. Shortly after our son's murder we founded an organization to support victims and to work for justice reform through public education.

Time is not sufficient to detail our efforts but suffice to say that it was the way in which I was treated by the justice committee of the previous Parliament during its hearings on the youth justice system which propelled me into this arena. It was painfully clear that the previous government was not prepared to listen to the views of ordinary Canadians.

I have come to the House of Commons with the support of my constituents. Along with representing their interests in this institution, they have given me a specific mandate to achieve better recognition for innocent victims of crime and reform of the criminal justice system.

For too long society has dealt with justice as merely a jurisdiction between the state and the offender, the philosophy that an offence against the laws of our land is an offence against the state. Little regard is given to the specific damage done to individual law-abiding citizens. This must change, not merely because it may be politically advantageous but because it is right, because it is fair and because it is what real justice is all about.

I am serving notice that I fully intend to be particularly vigilant on this issue. I realize that my task will be difficult as politicians of the past have been known to talk a good game, promising advancements in flowery complicated legal wording. But legislation to do any real good for our communities must have substance. It must be made more accessible, more equitable and more sympathetic toward victims of crime.

I am hopeful that the present Minister of Justice will set her fellow Canadians at ease by being a breath of fresh air and being a saviour not of the rights of our criminals but of the rights of our innocent victims. I am also hopeful that this new minister will be much more successful in her consultations and negotiations with the provinces. A great deal of victims legislation will have to be co-ordinated with those provinces, which have the task of administering our criminal law.

Funding for these services to victims will be of utmost interest and it is hoped this minister will use her persuasive powers to encourage the government to adequately provide those resources. She has promised a policy of co-operation with the provinces. She has assured us that victims of crime will be accorded better treatment within our justice system. It is noted that she promised victims better treatment but at the same time denies them and the majority of Canadians their demand to repeal section 745 of the Criminal Code. Obviously we will have to work to convince her in that regard.

I personally attended Clifford Olson's 745 hearing. There are few words available with which to describe it. Mockery and travesty come to mind. Those who crafted section 745 and those who support it should hang their heads in shame.

The Reform Party has been the most active in recognizing victims' rights. It is one of the primary reasons why I chose to run in the recent election for Reform. I have been most fortunate to be chosen by my colleagues to watchdog this issue. The government has put on notice that we intend to aggressively pursue righting this wrong in a justice system that, for too long, has ignored and failed to adequately consider the rights and interests of victims.

Victims of crime desire no special rights for themselves, only due consideration. Victims rights are about balance and fairness, nothing more and nothing less.

[Paul Forseth, Reform, New Westminster—Coquitlam—Burnaby, BC]

Madam Speaker, the member made specific reference to the loss of his son but he talked about the particular offender in that regard, and a peculiar gap in the law.

Then he mentioned parallel examples of other individuals who committed heinous crimes while they were already before the justice system on other matters. I believe he has introduced a private member's bill related to that.

I would like him to expand on this issue where we have individuals who are law breakers, who are in process. The justice system should be aware of them and yet it is inadequate, apparently, to stop their cycle of offending while they are still before the courts.

[Chuck Cadman, Reform, Surrey North, BC]

Madam Speaker, I can relate to the business that the hon. member mentioned. In this case, it is a section of the Young Offenders Act that I would like to see amended. It would hold parents accountable.

There is a section that holds parents accountable for failing to supervise an undertaking. In in my particular case, this came into play because the father did undertake to supervise a curfew condition that was, obviously, not supervised properly. It was not followed through in the courts. It never is. It could have been.

Right now it is a summary offence. We would like to see that moved into something more of an indictable area. Situations like that force the families of victims of violence—in particular murder victims—into the civil courts which is something that we really do not feel they should have to go.

That is not a route that should be taken. It is just one extra roadblock on the way to recovery. We feel many of these things have to be done through the criminal courts, not the civil courts.

[Reed Elley, Reform, Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC]

Madam Speaker, I want to add my own congratulations to you on your appointment as one of our deputy speakers and look forward to your very fair and impartial judgments on our deliberations.

As a fellow colleague from the coast and Vancouver Island I have, of course, much sympathy for what the hon. member for Surrey North has been sharing with us this afternoon. We were all treated to that terrible travesty of justice recently where Clifford Olson was brought into our living rooms by television and other means to plead his case for early parole. It is the insensitivity of the government that has allowed this kind of thing to happen in Canadian society.

I have a question for my hon. colleague. I wonder if, in view of the tragic circumstances that his family has endured in the past few years, he has any light to shed on whether or not the penal system in this country does rehabilitate criminals.

[Chuck Cadman, Reform, Surrey North, BC]

Madam Speaker, there is certainly a place within the criminal justice system, within the corrections system, for rehabilitation.

I for one do not believe it works all the time. In fact in most cases when dealing with serious violent offenders, with sexual predators, it has been shown that it does not work. There have been any number of instances of that over the past number of years.

It has been argued that the incarceration periods for young offenders are far too short to instil any positive corrective behaviour. You cannot take someone who has committed a murder, and is seriously off the rails, incarcerate them in a youth detention centre for five or six years and expect to get them turned around. It just does not work.

[Allan Kerpan, Reform, Blackstrap, SK]

Madam Speaker, first I would like to congratulate my colleague on his maiden speech. If more members of Parliament would take to heart his words of advice we would certainly have a better institution and a far better country.

I would ask the hon. member to comment on the area of victims rights. He mentioned in his remarks the 745 hearings. Having been involved with a group of people in Saskatoon who have just recently gone through this, I do feel the tremendous amount of grief and emotion of these people, 15 to 25 years after the fact. There has been no closure.

Would the hon. member like to comment?

[Chuck Cadman, Reform, Surrey North, BC]

Madam Speaker, after sitting through Clifford Olson's section 745 hearing for four days, there are really no words to describe it. You had to be there.

It was an absolute travesty. There were 22 family members representing eight of his 11 victims. It was beyond comprehension what those families were put through in those four days. It is not much more than what any family goes through when dealing with a parole hearing. However, in the case of a section 745 hearing, at one point a judge said “life with no parole for 20” but these families were forced to deal with it at 15 years.

[Eleni Bakopanos, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada]

Madam Speaker, I will be sharing my time with the member for St. Paul's.

I am pleased to take part in today's debate on the Speech from the Throne, but before beginning, Madam Speaker, I too want to congratulate you on your appointment as Acting Speaker of the House, and to wish you good luck.

On June 2 of this year, I began my second term of office, this time as the member for Ahuntsic, in the riding where I have lived with my family for close to 30 years. The riding of Ahuntsic has a long Liberal tradition, and I take great pride in following in the steps of women like the Hon. Jeanne Sauvé and Thérèse Killens. I pledge to continue to work hard with my government for the well-being of the residents of Ahuntsic, for nothing makes me happier than to serve my fellow citizens and all Canadians. I thank the citizens of Ahuntsic for their support.

Canadians are optimistic. Their confidence has returned because of our good governance, and because of a climate in which 974,000 jobs have been created since we formed the government in 1993. For the first time in close to 30 years, the Government of Canada will not be facing a monumental deficit. We are once again in a position to meet Canadians' priorities without exceeding our financial means.

The result is that we can now make strategic investments for our children, our young people, our health, and our communities, as well as for the sector of knowledge and creativity.

During our first mandate we demonstrated the leadership Canadians expect from their federal government. That is why Canadians returned their confidence on June 2 by electing a Liberal government to lead them into the 21st century.

We have restored their optimism and renewed their hope for the future. We were not mean, as some of our opponents will have you believe, but we were lean. We were not pseudo-conservatives as others would have you believe, we were true liberals. I will quote a great Canadian who led this country into another century, Sir Wilfrid Laurier:

I am a Liberal of the English school. I believe in that school which has all along claimed that it is the privilege of all subjects, whether high or low, whether rich or poor, whether ecclesiastic or laymen, to participate in the administration of public affairs, to discuss, to influence, to persuade, to convince—but which has always denied, even to the highest, the right to dictate to the lowest.

That is what Liberalism is all about.

We also know that the government cannot act alone. Canadians want their government to work in partnership. We are ready to work with all our partners—the provinces and territories, the private sector, non profit agencies, the volunteer sector and all Canadians—to better equip our country to meet the needs of Canadians.

We are not trying to encroach on the fundamental rights of the provinces, as the Bloc Quebecois is accusing us of doing, but rather to help my province, Quebec, develop within this flexible federation. A more smoothly operating federation is the key to our future. A federation is not static, but rather constantly changing. Together we will decide how it will change.

The Speech from the Throne sets out the broad lines of our strategy for our second mandate. Job creation and economic growth are and will remain our first priorities.

Accordingly, we want to keep our efforts focussed on helping small and medium size business develop and market new technologies.

Small and medium size businesses need to make the transition to new technologies if they are to survive in today's market. Manufacturers make up the majority of industry in my riding of Ahuntsic, names like Simon Chang, Tolédano and Christina Canada, which most recently received a grant from the federal government to help develop a new fibre for bathing suits. This new project will help to create nearly 200 jobs in Ahuntsic. This initiative funded through the transitional job fund is an example of the success of our job creation commitment, and that is just one example in my riding.

Investing in our youth has the largest return for Canada. As a mother of two young girls this issue is of utmost importance to me personally and I believe to all my colleagues in the House. We need to give children the best start possible.

During our first mandate we established a prenatal program and increased the Canada child tax benefit by $850 million a year. In our second mandate we will continue to develop a national child benefit system to respond to the problems of low income families with children. We will also develop a national children's agenda and establish centres of excellence to deepen our understanding of children's development and well-being. Who can argue with that?

We must do everything to guarantee our young people a better future. The youth service corps and youth internship programs were hugely successful in our first mandate. I had a number of projects in my riding and I can testify to their impact on the development of young people.

Young people want to gain experience in order to overcome the obstacles blocking their entry into the labour market. Furthermore, this experience revives their self confidence and increases their worth with future employers.

The youth employment strategy and the public service youth internship program will also create opportunities for young people in the riding of Ahuntsic and for the students of the collège Bois-de-Boulogne, who will certainly benefit from these programs.

Finally, the $1 billion Canada millennium scholarship endowment fund that the Prime Minister announced yesterday in response to the Speech from the Throne demonstrates once again our commitment to helping young Canadians. I would like to congratulate the Prime Minister on behalf of all our children and on behalf of my daughters.

These programs go a long way in helping our youth reach their potential and making them responsible citizens in their communities. There is nothing sadder than seeing youth resort to crime in the absence of hope for their future.

During my first mandate I worked directly with street kids and youth workers and saw firsthand the problems our youth are facing today. I bring these experiences to my new role as Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada. I thank the prime minister for giving me that opportunity.

Our focus in our second mandate will be crime prevention, youth justice and victim rights. By investing in crime prevention we are investing in the future of our children and ensuring safer streets and communities.

The throne speech announced an increase in funding for community based crime prevention initiatives to $30 million a year, further demonstrating our commitment to helping communities deal with the roots of crime. It also announced the government's intention to develop alternatives to incarceration for low risk, non-violent offenders such as sentencing reforms, community diversion programs and alternative sentencing.

My goal in my second mandate is to continue to serve my constituents and Canadians with honesty and integrity, as this government has shown, to remain accessible and approachable to those I represent and finally to remind them of the important role they play in shaping Canada's public policy.

As a Canadian of Hellenic origins, I take particular pride in knowing that the ancient Hellenic ideals of democracy and the agora are continuing to thrive in Canada because of this government.

As Aristotle once said, if liberty and equality are chiefly to be found in a democracy, they will be best obtained when all persons alike share in the government to the utmost.

[Réal Ménard, Bloc, Hochelaga—Maisonneuve, QC]

Thank you, Madam Speaker, I would like to take this opportunity to thank you and congratulate you on your appointment. I want to assure you of my full co-operation.

I cannot resist the temptation to put, through you, a question to our colleague, who is from Montreal and represents a constituency similar to mine in that there are very specific concerns about Montreal.

My question to the hon. member, which I hope she will answer, is this: Does she recognize that 20 years ago we were in a situation where the three leading federal parties—we tend to forget this, but a little over 20 years ago the Conservative Party, the NDP and the Liberal Party did recognize the existence of two nations or peoples in Canada. Why is it then that, for one reason or another, today, only lip service is paid to Quebec as a people or a nation, particularly on that side of the House? Is there cause for concern?

I would like to ask my hon. colleague, through you, if she recognizes Quebec as a people. This is something that can be defined objectively. Each people has its own vernacular. In this case, it happens to be French. We also have control over a territory.

There are few examples of federations in the world—and the hon. member sitting next to me is an expert on these issues—where one nation clearly has control over a territory, as is the case in Quebec. When we talk about peoples and nations, it always involves a clearly defined judicial system, as is the case in Quebec. These terms imply a will to live together, and the hon. member for Bourassa is aware of these issues.

All the objective elements are present so that the word “nations” can be used in the plural. Yet, some newspapers and political parties persist in their use of the singular form.

Will the hon. member recognize, here in this House, that Quebecers are a people, that they have a right to self-determination, and that we can count on her, should tempers flare in the coming weeks, particularly in Montreal, to discuss the issue of partition? I know the hon. member will be by my side and will say that Quebecers are a people, that they form a nation, that Quebec has a right to self-determination, and that its territory must remain intact.

Am I to understand that we will fight together for the same cause?

[Eleni Bakopanos, Liberal, Ahuntsic, QC]

Madam Speaker, I thank my colleague from the Bloc Quebecois for a question which is dear to my heart, since it is a given that I have been actively involved in Quebec politics for 25 years. I consider myself a Quebecer, and I am one, although not Quebec-born.

What I wish to say is that, when the hon. member talks history, he must not forget that the two founding peoples include French Canadians throughout Canada, and not just in Quebec. We must never forget that there are French Canadians outside Quebec.

As for partition, for me there is one Canada, indivisible. There is no question of dividing the best country in the world, and I have always fought against that during my 25 years in politics. I will repeat what I said in my speech. If the hon. member has listened well, what I said was that we must work together for a federation that will be more modern and more democratic, and will include all Canadians from the Atlantic to the Pacific.

[Jim Abbott, Reform, Kootenay—Columbia, BC]

Madam Speaker, I note with the background of the member who just spoke that she probably exemplifies where we are in Canada, which is that indeed Canada is made up of all those in Canada, not just those from the so-called two founding nations. That is noteworthy.

My question to her concerns her being Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Justice. I had occasion to have some people insist on having a discussion with me because someone they were associated with had been convicted of first degree murder 15 years ago. At that time the judge said it was an awful crime. I could see that in the eyes of these people when they met with me. These people are petrified at the potential of this killer being set free after 15 years.

At the sentencing hearing the judge said that it was such an awful crime there was no way the killer should be paroled for 25 years.

I have a question for the parliamentary secretary, as she will be the person who will be backing up the justice minister. This is a very serious question on behalf of these very distraught people.

Why should we believe in today's court judgments when the judges and the juries clearly say this is the penalty that must be applied because of the severity of the crime? Why should be believe in the judgment and in the sentencing that happens in 1997 if the judge says there should be no parole for 25 years, such as in the awful case of Bernardo? Why should we believe that our courts are going to be able to actually see that done?

Does the fact that her government refused to repeal section 745 not put the judgments and the sentencing of today's—

[The Acting Speaker (Ms. Thibeault)]

The hon. Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Justice.

[Eleni Bakopanos, Liberal, Ahuntsic, QC]

Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. member for his question. As has been evident in the House, the Reform Party's vision of the justice system is totally different from the vision which we as Liberals have. We do not question the integrity of our justice system.

In our first mandate we toughened sentences for those convicted of hate crimes. We tightened the rules for early parole hearings. We enhanced longer sentences for young offenders convicted of first and second degree murder. We made it possible to obtain DNA samples from suspects in crimes of physical violence. We cracked down on child prostitution and child sex tourism. I think that is proof enough that this government is going in the right direction and the integrity of our justice system is not put in question.

[Carolyn Bennett, Liberal, St. Paul's, ON]

Madam Speaker, congratulations on your appointment.

As I assume my responsibilities as the member for St. Paul's, I want to thank my predecessor, Barry Campbell, for his hard work both in the riding and for his invaluable help as the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Finance. I am also honoured to have his ongoing support and guidance as I enter this exciting new chapter.

I also want to thank his staff, Michael Spowart and Esther Shron for staying with me and providing the seamless transition for the people of St. Paul's with their ongoing care and experience.

The people of St. Paul's are big picture people. They are knowledgeable, passionate and have high expectations of their member of Parliament. Mitchell Sharp, John Roberts and Barry Campbell have set a high standard that I hope to be able to live up to.

Throughout the election campaign, it was clear to me that the people of St. Paul's respected the Liberal record of fiscal responsibility. Now they solidly support the priorities of this government as set forth in the Speech from the Throne. As it says in the Speech from the Throne, this government has regained the ability to address the priorities of Canadians while living within its means.

We have been elected to continue our prudent fiscal management, but make sure that we are able to be compassionate and look after those less fortunate. The people of Canada elected a Liberal government with a real plan: first eliminate the deficit, then divide the surplus between reinvesting in programs and a combination of tax relief and debt reduction, a balanced approach.

The people of Ontario strongly rejected the tax cuts and survival of the fittest option. We are living every day with the consequences of a provincial government which has no vision nor values; a government that continues to transfer power to unelected officials and ignores public opinion and referenda; a government that does not believe that it can have a positive effect on people's lives and whose sole purpose is to cut taxes; a government that forgets that Canada is a big cold country and as John Ralston Saul has said, a country whose people agreed over 150 years ago that they would have to look after one another. The true vision and values of Canadians are Liberal values.

Throughout the throne speech one finds the word “partnerships”. It is an exciting time when government can be the catalyst that brings together the private, public and third sector to facilitate innovative programs that will have a positive effect in the lives of Canadians. Partnerships require good communication and mutual respect.

I have been surprised and overwhelmed by the enthusiasm and innovation present in our public service and their clear commitment to real partnerships. Yesterday at the Industry Canada open house I was thrilled to see Schoolnet and Strategis as realities, to see the national graduates registry actually putting young Canadians to work on the digital collections and consulting small business. It is quite clear that our young Canadians' real facility with technology will be the true leveller in our society. The CEOs of this country are really learning directly from the recent grads.

I had the opportunity to see first hand last week one of the youth initiatives at HRDC. Their award winning newspaper Canada Prospects is really talking to high school students in language they can relate to and it is working. I was privileged to represent the minister at the launch of HRDC's new program, career in a box, creating a partnership between the federal government, the packaging industry and the CEC union. Hopefully this example of partnership will provide a template for which other sectors can soon follow.

Initiatives such as getting the volunteer sector on line is another true example of partnership and a commitment to make sure that Canadians are looked after but government does not have to deliver every service. Organizations like ACTEW and Skills for Change in my riding embody the vision and values and have the expertise to help realize the potential of those highly motivated Canadians who would truly rather be working.

As a family physician, my patients and now my constituents have made me acutely aware that they are increasingly concerned that the health care they need may not be there when they need it. In Ontario the present restructuring is putting at risk the high quality care that Canadians wear as a badge of honour.

I support the establishment of the health transition fund that will help provincial governments innovate in the areas of primary care and provide more integration in the delivery of health services and innovative home care and pharmacare. By finally moving forward with health care reform we can hopefully begin to ameliorate the damage done by the closing of hospitals and old-fashioned mergers before resources have been properly placed into community care. By improving the health information system, we will finally be able to track outcomes and ensure the kind of accountability that is required in order to support what up until now has only been supported anecdotally.

Throughout North America, health institutions are sharing services, saving dollars and proving that restructuring can be done without destroying institutions like Women's College Hospital and eroding public confidence in the system. In my former role as host of Doctor On Call on WTN, I was shocked at the disparity of health care across the country. It is only with the facts that we will finally be able to address the inequities.

The tenets of the Canada Health Act presumed high quality care. Accessibility to bargain basement standards is not what was intended nor what Canadians expect. These new initiatives will ensure increased accountability and real measurements of quality such that we can restore the confidence of Canadians in their health care system. We can no longer tolerate benchmarks that are not based on quality.

In Ontario sending people home from hospital quicker and sicker is what seems to be rewarded. We know the data is flawed and we know that readmission rates are not being tracked and that the women of this country are being left to pick up the pieces when patients are sent home too sick to look after themselves. We need to measure the absenteeism of those working women and the real cost to our country. Some companies are already convinced that partnerships in home care for their employees is just plain good business.

Health care delivery may be a provincial responsibility but there is no question in my mind that all Canadians hold us, the federal government, responsible for the existence and the quality of our health care system.

For me the sustainability of the health care system is reliant upon the recognition of all the determinants of health: jobs and poverty, violence and crime prevention, the environment. The priorities set out on Tuesday of investing in children, building safer communities, creating opportunities for young Canadians, are all part of our goal of keeping Canadians healthy. It is really about decreasing the demand so that we can guarantee adequate supply.

Throughout the summer my constituents have already been reassured by the efforts of the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs to bring frankness and clarity to any debate that could put in jeopardy the future of this country. They too believe that our future as a country is too precious for us to risk losing it through misunderstanding. The issue of national unity continues to be of paramount importance to the residents of St. Paul's.

Madam Speaker, I would like to thank you and your office personally for the excellent opportunity that your office provided at the centre d'immersion at Saint-Jean-sur-Richelieu. It helped me become a little more comfortable in our other official language. I also felt that the exposure to Madam Gervais and her staff with their frank conversations helped me to better understand the point of view that will be important to the future of a united Canada. This experience and exposure has been invaluable to me as a member of Parliament and has allowed me already to help explain to the people of St. Paul's the need for even greater understanding.

I recommend that all Canadians take any opportunity they can to visit Quebec. I hope this sort of exchange among all provinces will become a focus for some of our millennium celebrations. As we move toward the millennium I feel extremely proud to be a Canadian.

Last week I had the opportunity to speak to the Canadian Publishers Association which was entertaining a delegation of 20 Japanese publishers. I was asked to help them differentiate between Canadians and Americans. I focused on two things, both highlighted in the Speech from the Throne: our commitment to look after one another and our respect for multiculturalism.

American author John Irving who with his Canadian wife has an apartment in St. Paul's, pointed out that it is the expectation of the Canadian social system to look after the people who cannot look after themselves. There is no such expectation in the United States. That is another reason to protect our culture and to celebrate the stories of Canadians and by Canadians. We can remember that in Fifth Business Dunstan Ramsay looked after Boy Staunton. There is also the wonderful Canadian nurse who looked after the English patient. We are different.

I am so proud to be married to Peter O'Brian who with his films such as Grey Fox and My American Cousin continues to find and produce films that tell our stories.

Our respect for diversity also makes us different. I suggest that perhaps the publishing industry has demonstrated such success because of its recognition of the tremendous talent of our Canadians with roots around the world: Ondaatje, Ricci, Bissoondath, Kogawa.

As we move into this exciting new chapter, I am honoured to be part of a government that has accepted the challenge“to ensure that no Canadian is left behind as the country moves forward”.

I thank my husband and my sons for making my decision such an easy one and I thank my parents for their commitment of hard work and commitment to the customer.

Being a member of Parliament is truly the greatest privilege and responsibility. Politics and the opportunity to be part of a good government that can make a real difference in people's lives is indeed the highest calling. I promise that I will do everything in my power to continue to earn the trust the people of St. Paul's have placed in me.

[Angela Vautour, NDP, Beauséjour—Petitcodiac, NB]

Madam Speaker, I found it rather unusual that in the member's speech she mentioned health care in Ontario, and of how people are sent back home too soon as if it was just happening in Ontario.

I guess I just wanted to make members aware that this has been happening in the Atlantic provinces for quite a long time, having been, myself, a statistic of that. I had a child 22 months ago. She was born on Wednesday and Friday morning I was out. Friday night I was back in with my daughter.

Believe me it is not only the problem of the premier of Ontario. It is actually the federal government's problem because of the cuts transferred to the provinces. I want to make it clear that it is happening in the Atlantic provinces.

[Carolyn Bennett, Liberal, St. Paul's, ON]

Madam Speaker, I am aware that this is a problem across the country. I believe it is not the fault of the transfer payment cuts which I think were very necessary in order to be able to reduce the interest payments and for us to continue to do good work.

I do think, though, that the federal government has an ability to track these kinds of outcomes and be able to set some standards that all provinces can then set as true accountability for their performance.

We do not really know the readmission rate of maternity patients. We do not really know the readmission rate of people being sent home from hospital too early. We need to know those statistics so that we know where to reinvest and how to set examples for excellent quality care.

What I am most concerned with is that we have to do everything in our power to restore the confidence of Canadians in our health care system, because otherwise we end up on the slippery slope to an American system. I will do everything in my power to prevent that.

[Angela Vautour, NDP, Beauséjour—Petitcodiac, NB]

Madam Speaker, I guess what I would like to know then is how are the Liberals planning on finding out those statistics? What is the plan now?

[Carolyn Bennett, Liberal, St. Paul's, ON]

Madam Speaker, I think the beginning is the health information network. In Ontario, we have the beginning with ICES, a plan for keeping track of certain things.

It is really important when we start to track information that we ask what questions do we want answered and then to go and get that information. I think things like early discharge from maternity care, discharge from hospital readmission rates are probably the way to go, waiting lists.

We need to look at different kinds of problems, such as looking at pharmacare and seeing that in certain provinces when drugs are cut off the list, the patients have to be admitted to hospital in order to get that drug. That is not saving the overall budget any money.

We need to know that those kinds of things are happening. We need to know the kind of absenteeism in the women's workforce that is happening because women have to stay off work in order to go and look after their sick relatives who have been sent home from hospital too early.

I think we can get that data, but we are going to need everybody's help in finding out what questions we need to be asking in order to go and track that data.

[René Canuel, Bloc, Matapédia—Matane, QC]

Madam Speaker, I will share the 20 minutes allocated to me with my colleague from Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup—Témiscouata—Les Basques.

I would like to start by thanking my constituents in Matapédia—Matane. The riding is so big it could be a country. I say this for the benefit of my hon. friends opposite, because many have never set foot in my riding, except to make an announcement and wave the Canadian flag during election campaigns.

My riding extends from Saint-Moïse to Maria and from Baie-des-Sables to Madeleine. This is 750 kilometres. In other words, as far as Amqui to Ottawa. It takes about 10 hours or a day to travel the perimeter.

I want to thank my constituents for putting their trust in me. Some of them reelected me, others elected me for the first time. The people of Matapédia—Matane elected me to a second term. This is when I made the best showing. I served them well for four years, and I got a substantial majority. In Avignon and Denis-Riverin it was a little harder, because I was not as well-known. So I think we can say that Bloc members have to get out there and meet people and also cover a lot of ground.

People put their trust in me because I was there for them, but it is more than that. They trusted the man who defended sovereignty during the election campaign. I was very frank. I told them that if they wanted to elect a federalist, there were some very good ones. There were some outstanding candidates. But if they wanted to elect a sovereignist, there was only one choice. And today, I am here. Again, I thank the people in my riding.

These people are not stupid. They are sick and tired of hearing meaningless terms like “distinct society” and “unique society”. Some people, one of them a fisher, said “as unique as Matane shrimp”. What does that mean?

[An hon. member]

The shrimp come from Sept-îles.

[René Canuel, Bloc, Matapédia—Matane, QC]

Yes, they are caught in Sept-Îles and eaten in Matane, and they are excellent.

In philosophy, we say words are very important, so let us stop saying that words like “unique” and “distinct” no longer mean anything. Even Claude Ryan said these words were meaningless. When we ask our hon. friends opposite whether they are prepared to recognize us as a founding people, they all start to stammer and stutter. They do not have the guts to say they cannot recognize us as a founding people because, when it comes down to it, they do not recognize us. Well at least they are consistent. They are afraid to come out and say so. That I can understand, and I thank them for being consistent. I can follow that.

The government, however, is doing everything it can to diminish us, to reduce us to the level of some ethnic group. I may recall that aboriginal peoples were here at the very beginning. Everybody recognizes them. Then, we had two founding peoples. Everybody acknowledges that. But today, it would be nice if members opposite were able to say yes, you are a people.

I was in Vancouver during the holidays. A very nice place, but I could not feel at home there. Perhaps the Vancouverites who come to Quebec feel the same. I respect that. There is something missing, however. Are we treated as equals? I think not. The people down home have a rather colourful way of speaking, and I am going to adopt a bit of that. Such a lovely way of speaking. They do not mince words.

They are sick and tired of commissions, of all the different commissions. They are also sick and tired of the attacks on our integrity. They are disgusted, too, by the psychological profiles of the premier of Quebec. They sick and tired of seeing the multinationals using tax havens to get rich. They have been demanding action on this for a long time. Yet nothing happens. They are sick and tired, as well, of seeing the rich families protected by family trusts. Sick and tired of seeing banks making billion dollar profits.

I asked a big banker “Would you go bankrupt if Canadian taxes were raised a little?” He said “Not at all”. Do you know why? Do you know why the rich of this country are protected? That is easy to understand. Big businesses are the ones contributing to campaign funds, and then they find the Prime Minister's door wide open to them, the ministers' doors wide open to them. “We gave, so now it's our turn”. That works out very well.

There was an attempt made here to get a little bill passed on political party fundraising. No way would the Conservatives or the Liberals vote for that. Ask yourselves why, ladies and gentlemen. My fellow citizens know very well why not. We can see that the hands of the members opposite are tied. The people at home and even the people in the Atlantic provinces have not forgiven them.

Employment insurance, which I call poverty insurance, is causing problems at home. Some people are going to find the winter long: 910 hours to start. Some mothers and fathers are short 50 or 75 hours. Will they go on welfare? If they do, as you know, when you have children, they will have to sell their house. Obviously it is a last resort. We are entitled to a few thousand bucks in the bank.

That means those people are without hope. I have seen people crying in my office because they found this legislation so totally inhumane. This government has not the heart to change it.

I hope that those who do have a little heart will understand people living in poverty. What is there in the speech from the throne for the rural community? One little, very little, minuscule paragraph: “It is our good intention to—”. Go ahead and read it again. I have not got time to read it, but read it carefully.

What is in it for fishers? Nothing. What about forest workers? Absolutely nothing. And farmers? Nothing. A fine country, great and rich. They are busting with pride.

Our people are no fools. The people in my riding voted 64 per cent in favour of sovereignty in the last referendum, and the vote will be even higher in the next one, because the government is totally inhumane and unfair to rural communities. It says: “Let us feed the rich, because they support us”.

[Denis Coderre, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

Madam Speaker, I also take this opportunity to congratulate you on your excellent appointment. It is once again someone from Quebec, a French Canadian woman, who was appointed by the government, through the Prime Minister.

I was listening to the members of the club of the outraged, if I can put it that way. These people never feel free; they feel hard done by. However, given what their head office in Quebec City, more specifically the real leader of the Bloc Quebecois, Lucien Bouchard, is doing, I hope the hon. member opposite will be every bit as critical of his own people. If the member has any human sentiment, as he claims he does, he must have little sympathy for Minister Trudel, who is doing terrible things to municipalities.

I was in Chicoutimi last week and, once again, through the federal office of regional development and the Minister of Industry, we showed that we believe in partnership, that we can work with provincial organizations. We provided funding for another industrial chair at the Université du Québec in Chicoutimi. Again, this initiative will help improve people's quality of life.

A general council was recently held in Lévis. French Canadians from other provinces were once again left out in the cold. When it suits its purposes, the Bloc Quebecois speaks on behalf of French Canadians living outside Quebec. However, when it does not suit its needs, it just forgets about them.

I would like to know if the hon. member recognizes the French Canadian people, because the other side often plays the same cassette on the concept of people. Is there a French Canadian people?

[René Canuel, Bloc, Matapédia—Matane, QC]

Madam Speaker, I could answer without answering as they do, but I choose not to. There is a people of Quebec.

[An hon. member]

That is right.