Debates of Oct. 19th, 1998

Questions Passed As Orders For Returns

[Peter Adams, Liberal, Peterborough, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I ask that the remaining questions be allowed to stand.

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland)]

Is that agreed?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

The House resumed consideration of the motion that Bill C-54, an act to support and promote electronic commerce by protecting personal information that is collected, used or disclosed in certain circumstances, by providing for the use of electronic means to communicate of record information or transactions and by amending the Canada Evidence Act, the Statutory Instruments Act and the Statute Revision Act, be read the second time and referred to a committee.

Personal Information Protection And Electronic Documents Act

[Jim Jones, Progressive Conservative, Markham, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I have spoken to some very key issues regarding e-commerce. Now I turn my attention to the specific provisions of Bill C-54.

In many ways this bill is a starting point. As such we have only chance to get it right the first time. Many of the bill's components as they deal with the compilation, storage and release of personal information are merely an attempt to give legislative teeth to what was previously a voluntary code.

Privacy is a sacred trust that we often take for granted in this country. That is a good thing. The seamless implementation of privacy regulations should really come about unnoticed by Canadians. If this is the case then the confidence which exists before the legislation comes into effect has been preserved for the future. I do not want to be misunderstood. It is not my desire to hide any portion of the legislative process. However, I am sure I echo the sentiments of many when I suggest that none of us wants a repeat of the negative option billing fiasco we witnessed in the cable industry not that long ago.

Representation has been made to many of us from stakeholders in this process. As I said, we need to ensure that a balance is struck between the legitimate marketing efforts of business and the right of privacy that we all enjoy. If there is an error to be made one way or another let it be resolved that we err on the side of personal privacy.

The other components of Bill C-54 are general housekeeping sections that will move us along the road to becoming a model user of the Internet as a country.

I look forward to working with the other members of the industry committee as we begin reviewing this important first step in e-commerce.

[Walt Lastewka, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of Industry]

Mr. Speaker, I thank the member for Markham for his words on this bill. I know that in his previous life he was very much involved in computers and in the computer industry.

As we move forward on this bill some people have said that it is not enough. Some people have said it should do more as far as making rules and restrictions. Caution also has to come forward on Internet, rules and privacy. We do not want to stop innovation but we want to move in a certain direction.

The member mentioned there will be a lot of debate in the industry committee and by all colleagues in this House to make sure the bill has a balanced program and moves forward.

I would appreciate if the member for Markham could say a few words on moving forward and looking at future innovation. This is a global and we have to proceed with caution.

[Jim Jones, Progressive Conservative, Markham, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I thank the hon. member for his question.

This is an area that is changing rapidly because of advancements in technology. Technology almost on a monthly basis is becoming more powerful. It is also becoming a lot more functional in capabilities. At the same time there is a tremendous reduction in costs.

One of the things I hear from the industry is that we have to watch that this is not just another tax grab as we move forward in regulating the Internet e-commerce area. What the industry wants to see is business taxes as usual.

If we as a country think we are an island we are wrong. We are going to see that this is probably one of the biggest paradigm shifts in this century. If Canada does the right things and truly can be one of the leading countries on Internet, we are going to position ourselves well for the 21st century.

[Pierre De Savoye, Bloc, Portneuf, QC]

Mr. Speaker, the Liberal member for Markham is very knowledgeable on information technologies issues, judging from the comments he just made.

I would also like to mention that I started to work in this field in 1972. I worked in education and I have been a consultant for many years in Quebec, in Canada and internationally.

As a matter of fact, before being elected to this place, I was working on an MBA with a major in information technology. I was also the president of the Association de sécurité informatique du Québec. Accordingly, I am very familiar with security of information issues and I am especially interested in a bill like the one we are now debating.

I am especially interested in this debate since I had the privilege, in 1992, to present a brief, on behalf of the Association de sécurité en informatique du Québec, to the National Assembly, which was examining a bill to protect personal information in the private sector. That bill has now been enacted. It was passed four years ago, but it goes much further than what the government is now proposing.

Unfortunately, the government has only gone halfway and protected only in part personal information held by the private sector, i.e. information that is given in a commercial context. This is not the only type of information transmitted by computer. Thanks to the Internet, it is now much easier to provide information to recipients scattered around the globe.

I would like my colleague from Markham to tell us whether he believes that this bill should be much broader in scope, that it should in fact go as far as what has been done in Quebec instead of stopping halfway, because it has to be closely scrutinized. What does my colleague from Markham think about the fact that, if Bill C-54 is adopted without amendment, Quebeckers will lose rights that they have gained through the legislative process over the last four years?

It would be very difficult for Quebeckers to go back to the way things were four years ago before the Quebec government passed legislation in the leading-edge area of electronic commerce.

Would my colleague from Markam agree to see to it that the industry committee amends the bill so it goes as far as the four-year-old Quebec legislation? I await his answer.

[Jim Jones, Progressive Conservative, Markham, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I thank my hon. colleague from the Bloc for his question.

He raises some good points but the bill specifically addresses e-commerce and how it relates to e-commerce. Also, from an e-commerce and Internet standpoint it relates to the jurisdictions of the federal government.

I do not know the Quebec privacy bill put forward but I would hope that over time this legislation on privacy and the regulation of the Internet, et cetera, will be a seamless integration between the federal government and the provinces. That is what will make the Internet and e-commerce grow.

[Paul Crête, Bloc, Kamouraska—Rivière-Du-Loup—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to be able to take the floor to expand on the question asked by the member for Portneuf.

Yes, for four years now, Quebec has had specific legislation on the whole question of protecting personal information.

The question I would like to ask to the member is about electronic commerce and protecting personal information. We think that this bill does not strike the necessary balance between these two topics. We are evolving in a new area of law, a new field that is expanding very fast. We must ensure that we develop good practices that will guarantee adequate protection of personal information.

The minister himself, in a press release, pointed out that there was such a law in Quebec and that there could be delegation. Unfortunately, there is no such guarantee in the bill.

Does the member not think that it is important to have this spelled out clearly, for Quebec or any other province wishing to enact an appropriate law, especially when that legislation is similar to the one in Quebec? Also, does he not agree that it is necessary to have a way to amend the law—that without this amendment, among other things, this bill is not good enough to pass as it now stands?

[Jim Jones, Progressive Conservative, Markham, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I thank the hon. member of the Bloc Party for his question.

As I said earlier, I am not familiar with the privacy bill in the province of Quebec. For electronic commerce to grow, for the Internet to grow and for people to have confidence in doing business on the Internet since all transactions will be seamless, over the long haul we have to make sure there is a seamless integration of laws in this area in both the federal jurisdiction and the provincial jurisdiction.

Perhaps Bloc members would give me a copy of the Quebec privacy act. I would like to take a look at it. When we going through committee stage I am quite sure we will be open minded in this area.

[Alex Shepherd, Liberal, Durham, ON]

Mr. Speaker, it gives me great pleasure to share my time with the member for Waterloo—Wellington. I am pleased to debate Bill C-54, the personal information protection and electronic documents act. That is quite a mouthful for those of us in the House and for those listening today.

Paper transactions are time consuming, and in business and commerce time is money. This also applies to individuals. As people are able to use the Internet facilities more quickly, it will allow them more time to conduct other affairs in their lives.

Canada is in the unique position of being at the forefront of the evolution of e-commerce. It is much like the invention of the assembly line. It is a new process with which we can compete and win because of our history in embracing communications technology.

It is no secret that Canada is a vast country, the second largest country in the world. We are also the ones who fostered and promoted the invention of the telephone. Canada has the highest standing in post-secondary education enrolment in the world. We are ranked number one in knowledge workers by World Economic Forum . No longer is geographic size a liability. Indeed from B.C. to Newfoundland we are but microseconds away.

What is the advantage of e-commerce? What are we talking about? How does it relate to people in their communities today? Here are some very interesting statistics.

A recent OECD report noted that airline tickets had a cost of $12 when processed by conventional means via a travel agent. Over the Internet this cost is reduced to $1.50, which is an 87% savings. Electronic banking reduces those costs by 89%. Simply paying bills over the Internet reduces the cost by 70%. Some may wonder why our banking fees are not even lower than they are today because of the significant savings the banking industry has been able to glean. It might also tell us something about its profitability over the last few years.

This rapid change is not without its liabilities. Travel agents will obviously have to adapt to this new economy. Maybe even the banks. Many people have suggested that some of the people providing bank services in the future may not be banks today.

Amazon.com is the third largest book retailer in the United States with sales of $5.5 billion. It conducts business over the Internet where there is no waiting in line, no time consuming wait for that elusive book. This will have a tremendous impact on book retailers. I noted in today's papers that Chapters, the Globe and Mail and others plan to do the same.

Canada has currently a 5% share of transactions over the Internet. When we say 5% it does not sound like very much, but we have to realize that in the context of our per capita population it is the second largest per capita concentration in the world, second only to the United States.

Canadians have been quick to embrace the Internet. As many members have also mentioned, we are not just talking about Internet. We are also talking about intranets within corporate enterprises and other forms of electronic commerce such as bank cards. However I am talking almost exclusively of the evolution on the Internet.

There is a liability to using the Internet. In a recent Nielsen survey of CommerceNet it would appear that 16% of those who use the Internet today are willing to use it for commercial transactions. In other words, there is a large group of people using the Internet for their own personal benefit or to find out corporate information.

Indeed our government is big on promoting the Strategis site which helps small and medium size businesses make contacts with each other and find out about government services. Less than 16% of these people will actually use the Internet to conduct commerce. There is a general fear concerning privacy issues.

How many of us have been asked for our Visa card number over the Internet and how many of us have refused? There is a problem. People ask what will happen to their number when it us injected into the electronic system. Who is taking it? Who is using it? What other uses can they make of it?

We can all think of abuses. Many people worry about their own privacy and information. If Canadian businesses and consumers can take the lead in this area, it will clearly give our business community a competitive advantage in the world. Let us think of what a great advantage it would be to our business community if people throughout the world could say they can trust Canadian businesses because they have a system of rules and rules enforcement that respect Internet transactions.

Many people have stated that governments should keep their hands off the Internet. There is a great feeling among Internet users that it should be a laissez-faire sort of evolution. It is very much akin to at least the stories, if not the reality, of the opening up of the west. We opened up the west before we actually brought in law and order. Of course it was a rough and tumble place. I believe that is exactly where the Internet is today. It is a rough and tumble place without enforceable laws. It is necessary to have a framework to which we can all relate and appreciate to utilize the vast power of the Internet.

There is one issue which goes outside the e-commerce point for a minute. I know some other members have interjected their concerns about other forms of privacy over the Internet. There is a major concern, more so in the United States than in Canada, about medical records.

There is a form of Alzheimer's that can be predicted at a very early stage. In other words at a very early stage it can be predicted that a person will actually get that type of Alzheimer's later in life. There is a major concern that if insurance providers and employers could get access to that kind of information they may well make decisions based on it. Something as absurd as 18 year olds applying for a job and being predicted as getting a form of Alzheimer's when 70 years of age may result in them not being employed or not being insurable.

We must couple that with the fact that the province of British Columbia has computerized all the medical records. Suddenly we start to see where the problems of using information technology can lead.

I know the bill does not specifically address that issue, but it does enforce and balkanize the use of the privacy commissioner to ensure, at least as it relates to e-commerce, that there is protection for the common consumer.

The whole issue requires a significant amount of leadership. Part of the bill ensures that the procurement mechanism of the federal government will be open to e-commerce.

I will be addressing a business group in my riding tomorrow morning. They have already asked me some questions but I am sure they will ask how small and medium size businesses can get in on the procurement mechanisms of government. This is the very fundamental way they can do it. They do not have to be big to get access to the procurement mechanisms of government. Indeed most of the legislation deals with interprovincial trade. Hopefully the provinces and the territorial governments will all work together to ensure that this can be advanced.

We mentioned very quickly the encryption technology. This is a very big concern for a lot of people in Canada. There is an agreement to which Canada has been a signatory called the Wassenaar agreement. Part of the process of the agreement was in recognition that encryption could also work the other way around. Some members have talked about the fact that we can use encryption technology to conduct criminal activity. It was this agreement that put restrictions on the actual sale, export and purchasing of encryption technology. It is clear that we will have to modify our orientation to that agreement if we are to flourish in using encryption for the positive side of that equation.

In conclusion, I was very proud to take part in the OECD meeting on e-commerce which took place a couple of weeks ago in Ottawa. It is amazing that all the members I talked to, whether they were from Norway, Sweden or Japan, had the same problems. That is why we have an inside track at the starting gate. I think Bill C-54 will very much keep us ahead of the pack.

[Pierre De Savoye, Bloc, Portneuf, QC]

Mr. Speaker, Bill C-54 obviously deals with electronic commerce. Its primary purpose is not the protection of privacy, but electronic commerce and in that context, the bill supports electronic commerce while protecting privacy.

As I said a few minutes ago during the speech of one of my colleagues, this bill is incomplete and this fact was stressed by the government member a few moments ago. He mentioned, for instance, medical information, to which I would add legal as well as tax information.

The Internet involves much more than the communication of mere business information. It contains information of all kinds which can and do indeed travel 24 hours a day and concern individual citizens of Canada and Quebec. This information which is not of a commercial nature is not covered by this bill, and there is the rub.

Does the government member not recognize that the bill is incomplete and what changes does he suggest so that it provides the same protection Quebeckers already enjoy?

[Alex Shepherd, Liberal, Durham, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I am delighted to respond to the question, but I do not know if the comment about the bill being incomplete is appropriate. I think there are places for that.

The bill, which is a lengthy one, addresses many areas of evidential law and affects a number of basically commercial trading arrangements within Canada. Whether we want to bootleg that kind of issue on top of this one is a question of whether it is appropriate.

I have listened to members of the Bloc talk back and forth about their concerns of how this will apply. As I understand the bill it does not apply to Quebec because Quebec has an existing privacy law which is exempted from the bill in the first place. Therefore, I do not really understand why there is such a big concern. Earlier I heard one member say that they were going to give up four years of jurisprudence and privacy when in fact, the way the bill is drafted it allows for the province of Quebec to be exempted because it has similar legislation.

[Jean-Guy Chrétien, Bloc, Frontenac—Mégantic, QC]

Mr. Speaker, Bill C-54, which we are debating this afternoon, and which the hon. member for Durham has so eloquently praised, still raises some doubts. The title, which is very long, reads in part: An Act to support and promote electronic commerce by protecting personal information that is collected.

I wonder how the Liberal member will position himself since, in the early 70s, the Trudeau government, of which the present Prime Minister and Deputy Prime Minister were members, directly ordered the RCMP to steal the voters' lists of a well-known political party. Does he think that the government of the day respected the integrity, the spirit and the letter of collective personal information? Even worse, instead of being fired, the RCMP officers who were found guilty of breaking and entering were promoted.

How can the member reconcile those actions with his party's stated intentions in introducing this bill?

[Alex Shepherd, Liberal, Durham, ON]

Mr. Speaker, first of all what we are trying to do here is to create a framework of rules and regulations that people will understand and appreciate. It is very important. Canada is becoming a smaller and smaller country. A banking employee told me the other day that we are only 30 million people but the fact is that we are right around the corner from each other. That includes the province of Quebec. The province of Quebec is not a separate entity, but is very much part of this country.

E-commerce is the very thing in that there are no borders within Canada within that legal framework. We are going to continue to build strong ties between all the people of Canada to make this a better country, to make it competitive. All the people of Canada will be able to compete successfully in that marketplace.

[Lynn Myers, Liberal, Waterloo—Wellington, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to rise in the House today to debate this very important issue. I do so on behalf of the residents of Waterloo—Wellington.

It is difficult to underestimate the growing importance of the global communications network to economic activity. To a very large degree Canada's success in the 21st century will depend on the ability of Canadians to participate and succeed in the global knowledge based economy. Clearly this is the way of the world.

A knowledge based economy is driving global growth. This trend can only intensify. Canada's future prosperity will reflect our success in this economy. The Government of Canada has been extremely active in helping Canadians gain access to the opportunities of the global information culture. We have made Canada's participation in the knowledge based economy a top priority and rightfully so.

We have set the goal of making Canada the most connected nation in the world by the year 2000. This is truly a visionary move and one which will pay huge dividends in the future. Initiatives like the community access program and SchoolNet are ensuring that all Canadians no matter where they live have access to the electronic highway and the information economy.

Through the community access program alone by the year 2000-01 we will have connected every rural Canadian community with a population of more than 400 people, as many as 5,000 communities. SchoolNet is a broad based private and public sector partnership working to ensure that all of Canada's 20,000 public schools and libraries are connected to the Internet by the end of this year. As a former teacher and as chairman of the Waterloo regional library I know firsthand about the importance of SchoolNet and what it represents for Canadians.

Our government is committed to helping Canadians access the information and knowledge that will enable them, their communities, their businesses and institutions find new opportunities for learning, interacting, transacting business and developing their economic and social potential.

Electronic commerce is at the heart of the new information economy. Building an environment where electronic commerce can flourish is a key part of our commitment. By the year 2000 we want Canada's legal, commercial and technological environment for electronic commerce to rank among the world's best. We want Canadian industry to be a leader in the development and use of electronic commerce.

Electronic commerce will benefit consumers and businesses alike first, by lowering transaction and distribution costs; second, by increasing market access and consumer choice; third, by improving product support and information; and finally, by generating new products, services and business opportunities.

Every day $1 trillion U.S. in currency and a quarter of a trillion U.S. dollars in securities are traded electronically around the world, yet only a small portion of these transactions are done over the Internet. But this will change and soon. Electronic commerce conducted over the Internet is currently estimated at about $45 billion Canadian. However, exponential growth is forecast with e-com revenues expected to reach $600 billion by the year 2002. The potential impact of e-com is enormous. Any nation which desires its citizens to prosper must move forward to capture these opportunities.

If the world economy is soon to rely on e-com, we must first build trust in it. We have to assure privacy, and that is absolutely important. The rules for the digital marketplace must be set both domestically and among global trading partners. A large part of creating this trust and confidence has to do with assuring privacy and protecting personal information.

If electronic commerce, e-com, is to flourish in Canada, a clear, predictable and secure environment is an absolute requisite. Consumers, business and government, all of us need to feel confident about how our personal information is gathered, stored and used. We need to have control over our personal information and feel assured that it will be protected whether we use the Internet to shop or bank, plan a vacation, seek out medical information, browse on the web, use a debit card to make a purchase, or correspond with family and friends via e-mail.

Canada's privacy commissioner has described our present privacy protection as a patchwork of laws, regulations and codes. His colleagues in the provinces agree. They have been calling for privacy safeguards that would protect consumers from coast to coast.

The federal government and most provinces have laws governing the public sector's collection, use and disclosure of personal information. The federal Privacy Act applies to all federal government departments, most federal agencies and some federal crown corporations. The Privacy Commissioner of Canada oversees this act.

Protection in the private sector is sporadic and uneven. Only Quebec's law respecting the protection of personal information in the private sector provides a detailed framework for the collection, use and disclosure of personal information.

Clearly the present situation with regard to the protection of personal information in cyberspace is unacceptable. To build trust in the digital environment and put Canada at the forefront of electronic commerce, the government has tabled legislation to protect personal information in the private sector and to improve the way it conducts its own business via electronic media.

That is the purpose of Bill C-54, the personal information protection and electronic documents act. It makes the legislative adjustments that are necessary if electronic commerce is to flourish.

In January 1998 the government released a public discussion paper entitled “The Protection of Personal Information: Building Canada's Information Economy and Society”. This paper outlined the various issues which must be addressed in developing legislation and sought input from all Canadians.

Canadians have told us that they want legislation that is light, flexible and effective and that provides meaningful recourse for consumers. They support building on an existing instrument, such as the model code for the protection of personal information of the Canadian Standards Association. They want oversight to ensure compliance and investigate complaints.

Bill C-54 provides all of these things. It establishes a right to the protection of personal information and clear rules for how the information shall be collected, used and disclosed in the course of commercial activities interprovincially or internationally, or indeed in connection with the operation of a federal work, undertaking or business. The Privacy Commissioner of Canada will oversee compliance and investigate complaints.

This legislation will provide other benefits as well. It will enable the federal government to be a leader in the use of electronic media as it conducts its business with Canadian citizens. It will do this by updating and adjusting our laws so that electronic communications and electronic service delivery can be practical and secure options for doing business with government.

One aspect of the bill in particular has significant implications for e-com. Provisions in the new legislation introduce the concept of secure electronic signatures for use in electronic transmissions. Such signatures would be unique, would identify and be under the sole control of their users, and would be securely linked to the documents used in a given transaction.

Bill C-54 will help pave the way for the federal government's use of electronic technology as it delivers its programs and services in a timely, cost effective and secure manner. It will help ensure continuing federal leadership as the Canadian economy increasingly adopts e-com as the normal way of doing business.

In conclusion I want to note that by passing Bill C-54, the House of Commons will place Canada at the very forefront of that electronic commerce. It will help ensure that Canadians will be able to take advantage of the opportunities offered to them by the new information economy.

[Pierre De Savoye, Bloc, Portneuf, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I appreciated the comments made by the member across the way. I must say his concerns are well-founded. He considered the protection of personal information to be important. Of course, he said that none of us would want our medical records read or seen by just anyone, or our personal correspondence intercepted.

This bill does not ensure the protection of non-commercial information; in other words, medical data, income tax information or information included in personal correspondence are not protected by this bill.

As the hon. member mentioned, the situation is different in Quebec. Quebeckers are protected by provincial legislation that prohibits the use and disclosure of personal information.

The member also added and I quote “This bill will put Canada at the forefront”. Right? Wrong. Quebec is at the forefront. This bill will not put Canada at the forefront; it will bring up the rear, behind countries which already have more effective legislation.

We have to wonder why the minister did not go to Quebec to study the legislation that has already in force there for four years. It is working well and could no doubt be improved. This would have been an excellent opportunity to improve on it. But no. They ignored it and brought forward a second class bill. That is what we have before us, a second class bill, which aims to promote electronic commerce, not to protect personal information.

However, by protecting personal information in general, we would not only be promoting electronic commerce, we would also be making full use of the tools that the information highway puts at our disposal. I have a question for the member opposite. Earlier, he said that the federal legislation would not apply to Quebec because Quebec already has its own legislation.

Clause 27 provides that:

1. (1) The Governor in Council may make regulations— d ) if satisfied that legislation of a province that is substantially similar to this Part applies to an organization, a class of organizations, an activity or a class of activities, exempt the organization, activity or class from the application of this Part in respect of the collection, use or disclosure of personal information—

Does the member opposite think that a political decision instead of a legal decision can be enough to exempt Quebec from the application of this legislation? As for me, it does not make any sense.

[Lynn Myers, Liberal, Waterloo—Wellington, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I thank the member for the question. However, he fails to recognize the importance of the legislation in Bill C-54 that will put us in the forefront in terms of what we are doing as a government for the protection of all Canadians. The bill will provide the kind of trust, confidence and reliability that Canadians not only deserve but need in this new age.

I listened with some interest to the member opposite talk about Quebec and what has happened in terms of its privacy laws. I point out to him that we as a government have taken a look at the kinds of things Quebec has in place. We have used to the required and necessary extent the kinds of processes in place in that great province. I point out for all Canadians that he is in error in his premise.

The bottom line for us as a government is that in terms of our moving into the 21st century, we are doing it with the kind of confidence and vision required and which all Canadians want. We will do so in keeping with the values and the institutions that define us as a nation.

[Paul Crête, Bloc, Kamouraska—Rivière-Du-Loup—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I would like to repeat the title of the bill under consideration:

An act to support and promote electronic commerce by protecting personal information that is collected, used or disclosed in certain circumstances, by providing for the use of electronic means to communicate or record information or transactions and by amending the Canada Evidence Act, the Statutory Instruments Act and the Statute Revision Act.

Therefore, the purpose of the bill is to regulate a new sector of activity called electronic commerce. What is electronic commerce? Broadly speaking, this covers all the transactions one can do using electronic means. Most of us are familiar with ATMs, and use them on a regular basis. But there are also transactions between businesses.

To put this bill into perspective, let us say that we are roughly in the same situation we would be in if we did not have a supply network and we were deciding to pass consumer protection legislation. We would try to make sure that the consumer is adequately protected and that the information gathered is secure. We have to make sure that we strike a good balance between trade, freedom of trade, ease of trade, and providing adequate information protection for the people using these tools. This is the challenge facing the government.

In the information package we received from the government on this subject, there is an acknowledgement. Legislation has been in place for four years already; it was not passed by the Parti Quebecois, but by the Quebec Liberal Party. It was introduced by a federalist minister, and its constitutionality was never challenged. It has been in place for four years and even the Minister of Industry in his press release acknowledged that it is an interesting measure.

The main point of this legislation is the protection of personal information held by the private sector, which is really at the forefront of what should be done. This is what is expected of the federal government. Let us review how this bill came about. In 1982—a long time ago—Francis Fox, then Minister of Communications, said that the next step in privacy legislation was to extend the principles governing protection of personal information to the private sector under federal jurisdiction. That was in 1982.

Very significantly, in 1996-97, the Minister of Justice said that before year 2000, there would be an enforceable act giving real protection to privacy in the private sector; the minister added that this would be a major development.

The problem is that between the opinion of the Minister of Justice—

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh.

[Paul Crête, Bloc, Kamouraska—Rivière-Du-Loup—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I would like the hon. members opposite to take the time to listen to our arguments on this bill and stop behaving like clowns.

In 1996, the Minister of Justice at the time said that legislation was needed to protect personal information. Two years later the Minister of Industry introduces a bill. The pendulum has swung the other way.

The Minister of Justice said that legislation was needed to protect personal information. Today, we are debating a bill that is aimed more at facilitating electronic commerce than protecting privacy. Nobody denies the fact that electronic commerce will grow in value and importance in the future. Last week, we read in Le Devoir that the OECD, which is a major international organization, sees a bright future for electronic commerce. It is clear that there must be a major growth in that sector. It is obvious that we must adopt legislation concerning electronic commerce.

What is less obvious, however, is the process followed by the federal government. We are debating a bill which, in the final analysis, will not meet the personal information protection requirements that we could expect. I will give the House an example. Giving information in the course of electronic commerce is not like giving personal information over the phone to someone who can then either keep it or spread it around; the information is registered in computer systems, and that has significant multiplying effects.

We need to break new legal ground, to draft legislation that will provide a framework for years to come. We do not need legislation that will work only tomorrow morning, but legislation that will define how protection of information and electronic commerce will work in Canada for several years to come.

The bill does not seem to offer adequate balance between the requirements of quality electronic commerce and the protection of personal information. This bill is not carefully crafted. It is not clear or accurate.

Again, the minister's press release states that good legislation already exists in Quebec and that the government will let it be enforced, instead of the federal legislation, if it works well. Except this is not spelled out clearly in the bill. It will depend on the goodwill of the governments in place.

We know how successive federal governments have tended to work; as with all governments, they go with the trends. From time to time, the government tends to support the market, but we should not sacrifice on that altar what is important in the protection of personal information.

The bill does not spell this out clearly. This is a very important first amendment that should be made to the bill, so that the Bloc Quebecois can consider it an acceptable bill. The bill should clearly state that if a province has equivalent legislation, that legislation will apply. In this way, Quebec will be able to maintain the lead it took four years ago.

Today, on this planet, if we look at all the countries that have good legislation, I believe Quebec's legislation could used as an model and be studied by different countries to see how it works. It is based on the principle that the protection of personal information is fundamental.

It is not something that happened by chance. It happened because of all the work we have accomplished as years went by with, for example, the Office de protection du consommateur, and on the issue of the right to information in the public sector. We have a pretty good history in this matter. We took the lead in the protection of personal information.

Today, we have nothing against the rest of Canada passing its own legislation—I believe that it should do so—but we want to ensure that the legislation now in force in Quebec can apply, and that this will not cause further complications.

One can pass judgment on how the Canadian federation has worked in the past. One can condemn duplication. On can say that things should have been done differently. One can suggest ways to do things differently from the way they were done in the past. But, one thing is clear, we do not have the right to pass legislation that leads to more duplication.

If there is a sector where the industry does not want dual legislation and does not want to be embroiled in constitutional problems and problems with interpreting the law, it is surely electronic commerce, which will in any case be considerably affected by the need of international agreements.

It is difficult to see how information will be protected in North America. If information is transmitted from someone in Canada to someone else in the United States, how is it protected if other companies in Canada want it? Many things need to be spelled out and the bill is vague on this. Some finishing work has not been done. The bill should be sent back to the drawing table to ensure it is properly amended.

This bill opens the door to several interpretations and gives discretionary power to the governor in council. The governor in council is the cabinet. It is the government that, through clause 27( d ), may decide to change the application of this bill without having to reintroduce it before Parliament.

This is a principle that we do not often find in legislation and that we try to avoid as much as possible in our legislation and in the British tradition, to ensure there is no usurping of authority, especially in very contentious areas, such as personal information protection, where the government itself could be involved and would at the same time have the flexibility to change the legislation if it were not to its advantage to enforce the legislation as passed by the House.

On this point, there is work to be done. The bill, as it stands, needs more work and needs to be made clearer.

We can also ask whether the bill responds to the expectations of consumers and of Quebec and Canada privacy commissioners. The respective titles of the two bills, that is the Quebec legislation and the Canadian legislation, are very explicit.

Quebec's act is entitled an Act respecting the protection of personal information in the private sector whereas the federal act is entitled an Act to support and promote electronic commerce by protecting personal information that is collected, used or disclosed in certain circumstances.

Whereas the Quebec legislation is aimed at protecting privacy and applies to every organization, the federal legislation only applies to transactions with a commercial purpose. The difference in ideology is obvious.

At the federal level, electronic commerce is the main object of the bill. Personal information also means businesses' trade information. The federal act should not hamper the very same trade activities it seeks to promote.

One can reasonably state that the Quebec bill is stricter and more encompassing both in its form—it truly is a bill—and its definitions, its clear wording and the power to issue orders it gives the commissioner, something that is lacking in the federal bill.

This bill has many other flaws. The framework of the bill is its schedule. This is rather odd. It is as if they were trying to hoodwink us. And that is unacceptable.

The schedule is a model code for the protection of personal information developed by the private sector and consumers as a framework for the protection of personal information in the private sector on a voluntary basis, I repeat, on a voluntary basis. This is noteworthy.

What this means is that the minister chose to stick to this code because he had the support of the private sector and was eager to develop e-commerce in Canada. In other words, they did not delve into this issue to see if the protection of personal information was adequate, real and complete. They said “This is the consensus the industry has agreed to. We will include it in the legislation as is”. But is it enough?

The minister did not follow through on the recommendations made by consumers and the privacy commissioners, who stated that the code provides a good basis, but needs to be reviewed and amended if it is to be included in the legislation. They are very clear on that issue. So, during consideration of this bill, we would need to review the code. As long as it remains unchanged, we have yet another reason to believe that this is an incomplete piece of legislation that needs some major amendments.

As I said, the bill is rather unclear. The roles are not clearly defined and there is still a lot of work to be done in this area. The bill is open to various interpretations.

For instance, it stipulates that organizations shall make a reasonable effort to ensure that the individual is advised of the purposes for which the information will be used. What is meant by “a reasonable effort”? Will there be all kinds of legal challenges because a company has disclosed credit card information or any other type of information, claiming that it had mentioned the information could be used for all kinds of other purposes and that, by giving authorization, the person who provided the information had also authorized all possible uses?

The person who provides information because he or she wants to acquire a product may not have understood this clearly, and there is a list of possible uses, but those uses are not mentioned in the legislation.

I want to get back to one important element. I am sure the minister responsible for regional development in Quebec is well aware that a law has been in place in that province for four years. Since it was adopted by the Liberal government at that time, nobody can say that it has a separatist or sovereignist bias. It is a law that Quebeckers put in place because they thought it was relevant and because we were slightly ahead in that area.

The federal government must change the bill so it is very clear that Quebec, or any other province that adopts similar legislation, can enforce its own legislation rather than the provisions contained in this bill.

There are other aspects of this bill that I would like to draw to the attention of the House. What about the exchange of information outside commercial activities, for example, between non profit organizations? The status of this type of exchange is not clear.

We know a lot of non profit organizations, such as foundations and all volunteer organizations, that must exchange information. Information is collected on volunteers. There is nothing in the bill with regard to this type of exchange.

Federal institutions are subject to much more restrictive legislation than the private sector will be with Bill C-54. There is a double standard. The federal government is asked to be efficient in its operations, but the requirements will not be the same for the private sector.

The consequences of these various aspects makes members of the Bloc Quebecois wonder. If, with a privacy law in the public sector, the privacy commissioner is obliged to take Human Resources Canada and Canada Customs to court under section 8 of the charter of rights and freedoms for contravening the Privacy Act, how can the government expect private enterprise to go one better with a law that is less restrictive and more open to interpretation?

We have just gone through this with employment insurance. The Government of Canada decided to relate information provided to Canada Customs by out of country travellers and by people receiving employment insurance. The privacy commissioner had to go to court to get Human Resources Canada to comply with the law, and we are still awaiting the decision on this. The government is proceeding against itself, when the requirements are indicated in the law.

How can we ask businesses to behave any better when the law contains no specific provision?

In short, the issues are fairly clear. The Minister of Industry has to make sure that Canada is an active participant in the world economy, more specifically, in the upcoming explosion of electronic commerce.

We think this will become very important. I think it will be vital to do so. In terms of traditional imports, Quebec is currently experiencing a pretty fantastic boom. The same is true in the case of electronic commerce. We are ready to get on the bandwagon and grab our share of the market. I think it is in the interest of everyone globally for this to happen.

However, a balance must be struck between the rights of consumers, the citizens' right to privacy and the right to trade. It is therefore very important that the federal government go back to the drawing board.

To conclude, it seems to us, in the Bloc Quebecois, that this is a jumbled bill, full of ifs and whens, whose central feature is a schedule that can be changed by the governor in council without debate. All of this is unacceptable to us.

This legislation will make federal-provincial linkage extremely complex and will result in further interference. It emphasises electronic commerce at the expense of the fundamental concept of privacy. This bill, as it stands, does not give commissioners any real power, making the legislation meaningless, and it does not draw upon Quebec's unique experience with protecting personal information, or privacy, in the private sector.

For these reasons, unless amended, this bill should be defeated in Parliament or sent back to the drawing board so that the final product can measure up to the expectations of the people in Quebec and Canada with respect to both electronic commerce and privacy.

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland)]

Order, please. It is my duty, pursuant to Standing Order 38, to inform the House that the question to be raised tonight at the time of adjournment is as follows: the hon. member for Frontenac—Mégantic, Asbestos.

[Pierre De Savoye, Bloc, Portneuf, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I greatly enjoyed the speech given by my colleague and friend, the member for Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup—Témiscouata—Les Basques. He is perfectly right; the bill before us is not just about e-mail and the associated personal information.

I would like to give an example so that all those in the House and listeners at home will understand what we are really talking about. You go into a department store. We have all been in these stores which, in addition to selling things, offer credit cards, which record our name, address, telephone number and postal code when we buy something there.

The store collects all this information and then, with the help of its computer, is able to produce a list of people who bought a sports item, for example, and then turn this list over to the publisher of a sports magazine, say. These lists command quite a price, apparently going for a dollar and up per name.

This is how it is that members of the public receive junk mail. For anyone wondering where on earth they got our address, and how they knew we were interested in whatever it was, if in fact we even were, because sometimes we were just buying a present for somebody else, this is how.

I mentioned department stores; I could mention many other organizations, not always commercial, and various associations. In Quebec, such a practice is not allowed. It is an indictable offence. But in the rest of Canada, it is allowed and legal—unless a business follows its own code of ethics.

The bill before us would not necessarily make this practice illegal, and this is the purpose of my question to the hon. member. Clause 4.3.7 of the schedule deals with the consent principle and provides the following: b ) a checkoff box may be used to allow individuals to request that their names and addresses not be given to other organizations. Individuals who do not check the box are assumed to consent to the transfer of this information to third parties;

So, we go to a store, buy something and get a receipt. The clerk says “Look at the receipt. There is a small box”. We think “fine”, but the act has just been circumvented.

This is what will happen with this bill, which provides just the opposite of what we have in Quebec, where a person must check off the box to allow the transfer of information to third parties. Here, it is exactly the opposite. In Quebec, there is no consent unless otherwise specified, whereas in the legislation before us, consent is implicit, unless otherwise stated.

I wonder if the hon. member for Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup—Témiscouata—Les Basques could comment on this.

[Paul Crête, Bloc, Kamouraska—Rivière-Du-Loup—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I thank the member for Portneuf for the example he gave at the end of his speech, which so clearly explains the whole situation. Quebec has a law which operates on the principle that privacy should have priority. The federal government has taken the opposite approach and given priority to business. The Liberal government will make it the exception rather than the rule that people can block the release of information.

We would like to right this state of affairs, which we find unacceptable because Quebec is already much further ahead in this regard. I have an even greater reason to be concerned because, in this very House in April 1997, I proposed a motion, which was unanimously passed, requiring the Privacy Act to apply to all crown corporations.

This motion received unanimous approval in the House of Commons one and a half years ago and the government has done nothing. Right now, there are still many crown corporations not subject to the Privacy Act, even though the motion received unanimous approval.

I can understand that things take time. What I am getting at is that, if the bill is not right from the start, we will find ourselves in a similar situation, where a motion passed unanimously by the House of Commons is not acted on by the government.

We are in a new area of law. We are in a new sector, where those who are better informed will be better protected. Poverty and the ability to use the tools available will still determine the outcome.

Let us level the playing field. Let us give everyone a fair chance with E-mail and see that their rights are protected, rather than the opposite. We have an opportunity to make these amendments, and the government took the time to table the bill. The Minister of Industry won out over those members of this government who wanted a bill that protected personal information.

There is still time for the government to right the balance and, among other things, make it possible for the Privacy Act to be the legislation that really applies in Quebec and to confirm this in the legislation, not just in the minister's press releases.