Debates of Oct. 19th, 1998

Apec Inquiry

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, there is no accusation against any students.

[An hon. member]

Just throw them in jail.

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Saint-Maurice, QC]

No, no. There is no accusation. Therefore they are not being attacked by anybody. The RCMP is being attacked. Some people in my office have been asked to testify because members of parliament claimed that they are responsible.

Let the commission do its work and we will know if it is appropriate or not appropriate for the RCMP to use pepper spray. It is the commission that will tell us. Let it do its work.

[Dick Harris, Reform, Prince George—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Mr. Speaker, the Prime Minister says that no one had a complaint against the students. Obviously he sure had a complaint against the students when he ordered them pepper sprayed at the APEC conference.

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh.

[The Speaker]

The hon. member for Prince George—Bulkley Valley.

[Dick Harris, Reform, Prince George—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the Prime Minister why is he unwilling to give one single nickel to the legal case of the students when he is willing to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars to save the sorry butts of himself and this government? Why is that?

[Andy Scott, Liberal, Solicitor General of Canada]

Mr. Speaker, as I said, the decision not to fund the complainants was mine.

It was important in terms of the original intention of the public complaints commission as it was established some 10 years ago, to make sure that ordinary Canadians have access to an informal process, not unlike a large number of similar administrative tribunals throughout government. It was on that basis I made that decision. I communicated that to the panel.

[Dick Harris, Reform, Prince George—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Mr. Speaker, we will have to check the black box in the airplane to see what the real thoughts are over there.

The fact is that Canadians are entitled to certain fundamental principles of justice in this country. They are accustomed to it and they deserve a fair hearing free from political interference. I think both sides should get fair legal representation. Canadians expect some sort of justice, not some sort of Suharto kangaroo court in this country.

My question is for the Prime Minister. Show trials may work in Indonesia but what is—

[The Speaker]

The hon. solicitor general.

[Andy Scott, Liberal, Solicitor General of Canada]

Mr. Speaker, as I said, I have every confidence in the public complaints commission. It has a 10-year history. It is well regarded internationally. The public complaints commission will get to the truth.

Employment Insurance

[Paul Crête, Bloc, Kamouraska—Rivière-Du-Loup—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Mr. Speaker, Statistics Canada's unemployment survey confirms one thing: 6 unemployed workers out of 10 are not receiving EI benefits.

Now that the numbers are out, what does the minister have to say to the 60% of unemployed workers who cannot rely on the EI system?

[Pierre Pettigrew, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development]

Mr. Speaker, what the survey showed is that 78% of workers who have had some sort of connection with the labour force during the previous year are covered by the EI system.

What the survey showed was that the number of unemployed workers actually receiving benefits was not an indication of the system's effectiveness.

What the survey showed was that workers who do not qualify for EI are those the system was never intended to assist in the first place.

[Paul Crête, Bloc, Kamouraska—Rivière-Du-Loup—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Mr. Speaker, the minister can try to dazzle us with his survey but one fact remains: 6 unemployed workers out of 10 are not receiving EI benefits.

What is the rationale for an EI system whose main purpose is to create surpluses for the government, rather than provide benefits for unemployed workers?

[Pierre Pettigrew, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development]

Mr. Speaker, the EI system covers 78% of Canadians who have some connection with the labour force. What the member is saying is that the EI system should cover people who have never been employed, for instance.

People who have never been employed are not covered by the EI system. People who have voluntarily left their job, without justification, are not covered by the system, nor are self-employed workers.

The member should wake up to the fact that the system is doing what it is designed to do.

The Senate

[Art Hanger, Reform, Calgary Northeast, AB]

Mr. Speaker, over the weekend the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs came to Alberta with a message to deliver. That message to Albertans was that the Senate election that is being held today was a waste of taxpayers' money.

My question is for the real deliverer of that message, the Prime Minister. What does he think is a bigger waste of money, Alberta's democratic Senate election or the present current useless Senate?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, we voted here on this side in favour of an elected Senate while members opposite were campaigning against it.

Hon. members opposite should deal with the real preoccupation of the people, having an equal Senate, a representative Senate, but they are not dealing with it.

It is like during the last referendum. When members on this side were in Montreal trying to convince people to keep Quebec in Canada, the Leader of the Opposition was talking with the U.S. ambassador, telling him that he had a plan to split Canada even before the—

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh.

[The Speaker]

The hon. member for Calgary Northeast.

[Art Hanger, Reform, Calgary Northeast, AB]

Mr. Speaker, the Prime Minister has again slapped Albertans in the face.

Ninety-one percent of Albertans want an elected Senate. Both Premiers Klein and Bouchard want to change this country. Premier Klein wants to hold a good faith vote on an elected Senate. Premier Bouchard wants to hold a vote on separation to break up the country.

Why does the Prime Minister treat Premier Bouchard's negative initiative with more respect than Premier Klein's positive one?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, I dealt with it. We are for an equal, elected and effective Senate, something that members opposite do not want, because the minute they have an election, the number of senators will never be equal.

The Leader of the Opposition does not seem to understand what I was talking about. While we were debating to keep Quebec in Confederation during the referendum, the leader of the Reform Party was calling U.S. Ambassador Blanchard telling him that he had a plan on the division of Canada's federal debt following a separatist victory. Is that not shameful?

Employment Insurance

[Yvan Loubier, Bloc, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC]

Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Finance announced that the government has decided to use the federal budget surplus to reduce Canada's debt. However, a significant part of the surplus comes from the employment insurance fund.

In making this decision, is the Minister of Finance not saying that he has decided to have Canada's debt paid off primarily by those who earn $39,000 or less a year, that is the workers who are the main contributors to the employment insurance fund?

[Paul Martin, Liberal, Minister of Finance]

Mr. Speaker, I clearly said that no decision had yet been made.

One thing is clear: tax cuts will certainly benefit the lowest paid workers, the same way that our last budget benefited 400,000 people who used to pay taxes and no longer do so.

[Yvan Loubier, Bloc, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC]

Mr. Speaker, the federal government always says it is keeping a close eye on the provinces, to make sure the money transferred to them is used specifically for the purposes intended.

How can the government impose this requirement on the provinces, when it is using the employment insurance fund as it pleases, without taking into account the purposes for which contributions were made by businesses and workers?

[Paul Martin, Liberal, Minister of Finance]

Mr. Speaker, what I said in my economic statement is that the government was very pleased with the provinces' initiative, whereby if transfer payments are made for health, the provinces are prepared to guarantee that the money will indeed be used in the health sector.