Debates of Oct. 20th, 1998

Apec Inquiry

[The Speaker]

The hon. member for Kootenay—Columbia.

[Jim Abbott, Reform, Kootenay—Columbia, BC]

Mr. Speaker, the only place that this Prime Minister is a little guy from Shawinigan is in his own mind.

Why is he so stubborn? Does he not realize that the reference to baseball bats yesterday and then trying to placate people by talking about water cannons today is totally unacceptable and completely offensive to Canadians? Why will he not apologize?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, I want the commission to look into that. It is the opposition that keeps raising these problems.

The situation is that we have a committee in Canada that permits any citizen who has a complaint against the police to be heard and have the complaint disposed of. It is exactly why we have said to the commission to do its work as quickly as possible. It is why the solicitor general has made more resources available to it so it can do a thorough job so Canadians will know the truth.

[Jim Abbott, Reform, Kootenay—Columbia, BC]

Mr. Speaker, one thing I will say about the Prime Minister is at least he is consistent. In 36 years he has never apologized for anything.

In this instance he is wrong to be talking about taking baseball bats to students' head. Why will he not apologize?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, on the CBC French network a reporter said I apologized six times yesterday. I can understand that the member does not watch French TV but it is what I heard.

I have said many times I have no problem apologizing to anybody. I want people to understand that it is the opposition that should apologize for depriving the Canadian people of an independent body to look into that problem.

[Gilles Duceppe, Bloc, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

Mr. Speaker, the more questions we ask about the Peppergate affair, the more we begin to understand what really went on in Vancouver and, more to the point, what the Prime Minister thinks about it.

Is the Prime Minister not refusing to get to the bottom of the APEC incident because he basically agrees with the heavy-handed intervention of the RCMP, as long as it used cayenne pepper, and not baseball bats?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, I hope that, when the police intervene, they use nothing else, and that they maintain order as simply as possible.

The RCMP does this very well in all sorts of circumstances. I would like the commission to look at all aspects of the Vancouver controversy and inform Canadians of the truth, after which the government will take appropriate action.

[Gilles Duceppe, Bloc, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

Mr. Speaker, does the Prime Minister realize that he is in a conflict of interest situation, because not only he is one of those accused, but he is also denying those who complained legal representation?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, the commission is examining the incidents. Complaints were filed against the RCMP in Vancouver and the commission of inquiry is studying the problem, as it is required to do by law.

There are no accused in all this; the students have been accused of absolutely nothing. According to the students, a few police officers were a bit heavy-handed and the commission will determine whether or not that was the case.

[Richard Marceau, Bloc, Charlesbourg, QC]

Mr. Speaker, the Solicitor General is the minister most implicated in the Peppergate affair.

He is the one responsible for the RCMP. He is also the one who decided that the young student victims of police brutality could not have lawyers.

Is it not a serious lapse of ethics for the minister most implicated in Peppergate to be the one denying legal representation to the victims, who have filed a complaint against the RCMP?

[Andy Scott, Liberal, Solicitor General of Canada]

Mr. Speaker, as I said many times, the public complaints commission was established some 10 years ago to give ordinary Canadians access to a process that would not require them to have a lawyer. It was intended to be informal. I think it is very important. There are many similar tribunals across government and it is very important that we preserve the right of Canadians to have access to such informal processes.

[Richard Marceau, Bloc, Charlesbourg, QC]

Mr. Speaker, the Solicitor General has already looked silly enough in the Peppergate affair. If he is unwilling to provide legal representation for the students, what is he waiting for to end this parody of justice?

[Andy Scott, Liberal, Solicitor General of Canada]

Mr. Speaker, as I said, I think it is important and I think Canadians want to get to the truth in this matter. The public complaints commission is exactly the forum to do that and I have every confidence that is exactly what will happen.

[Alexa McDonough, NDP, Halifax, NS]

Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Prime Minister.

During the summer the public complaints commission asked for funded legal representation for students. The government said no. Strike one. Earlier this month the commission asked a second time. The government said no again. Strike two. Today the commission's request in the form of a motion is before this House.

Before the Prime Minister strikes out can he explain how justice is served by saying no to students yet again?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, I explained yesterday that there is a commission established by the Parliament of Canada to make sure that when people have complaints against the RCMP the commission provides them with the support they need so that they can testify.

This system has existed for 10 years. As I said in the House yesterday, the lawyer of the commission is willing to help the students testify.

There is no accusation against any student. They are just complainants and the commission is looking at the complaints they have before the commission.

[Alexa McDonough, NDP, Halifax, NS]

Mr. Speaker, on APEC this government has loads of money for pollsters to tell it what Canadians are thinking, loads of money for PR consultants to tell Canadians what they should be thinking, loads of money for lawyers to make the Prime Minister look good but no money for students, no money for justice.

The commission itself says pay. The federal court says pay. Why not do the right thing and just pay the students' legal costs?

[Andy Scott, Liberal, Solicitor General of Canada]

Mr. Speaker, as has been explained many times before, we did increase the amount of money available to the public complaints commission by some $650,000 to facilitate their participation, as was originally intended when the public complaints commission was established and as it will be after this investigation is over.

[Peter MacKay, Progressive Conservative, Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough, NS]

Mr. Speaker, either this government has complete faith in the competence of the public complaints commission or it does not.

The commission has twice requested funding for the students yet the solicitor general refuses to accept this advice. The solicitor general knows there is a precedent, that inmates from the Kingston prison for women were provided with legal funding to pursue their complaints with the request of the Arbour inquiry.

Will the solicitor general show the same confidence in this commission's judgment, stop covering for the Prime Minister and restore fairness to this process by approving student funding today?

[Andy Scott, Liberal, Solicitor General of Canada]

Mr. Speaker, it is my confidence in the public complaints commission that allowed me to make available the $650,000 in additional funding to facilitate this process.

It is also my confidence in the public complaints commission's comments to me that it is very convinced that this can be done fairly and thoroughly, and justice will indeed be served.

[Peter MacKay, Progressive Conservative, Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough, NS]

Mr. Speaker, the solicitor general is one of two law officers whose obligation to parliament supersedes any political loyalty to the Prime Minister.

By consulting with the Prime Minister's office on the issue of funding for the APEC hearings the solicitor general has yet again compromised his office and tainted a process which he has so vigorously defended.

Once upon a time the solicitor general had a responsibility to parliament yet he has repeatedly betrayed this loyalty. Will he recognize his failing, show some respect for this institution and offer his resignation?

[Andy Scott, Liberal, Solicitor General of Canada]

Mr. Speaker, as I have said many times, the application of this argument applies to a number of tribunals that cost not only the federal but provincial governments as well. Consequently the idea of consulting with colleagues broadly on this issue is the responsible thing to do.

[Art Hanger, Reform, Calgary Northeast, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I spent 22 years on the Calgary police department and during part of that time trained as a riot squad member. The only time I ever used a baseball bat was when I took my son to the park and we played baseball. Bats are not police issue nor are water cannons. They are only used to disperse students in third world country dictatorships.

When will the Prime Minister stop maligning the good reputation of Canada's police forces and admit that he was at the root of the APEC clamp down?

[Andy Scott, Liberal, Solicitor General of Canada]

Mr. Speaker, I suggest that the hon. members across the way should quit maligning the process.

[An hon. member]

Resign.

[The Speaker]

The hon. solicitor general.