Debates of Oct. 6th, 1998

The House resumed consideration of the motion that Bill C-52. an act to implement the Comprehensive Nuclear Test-Ban Treaty, be read for the second time and referred to a committee.

Comprehensive Nuclear Test-Ban Treaty Implementation Act

[Maud Debien, Bloc, Laval East, QC]

Mr. Speaker, the escalating tensions between India and Pakistan this spring reminded us that the nuclear arms issue was not resolved, although the cold war was over.

For more than half a century, in fact, humanity has been living in constant fear of another holocaust, and we are still sitting on the powder keg of heavy nuclear armament.

Since this is now a threat from all sides, all possible steps must be taken to curb proliferation. This is why we are today debating the act to implement the Comprehensive Nuclear Test-Ban Treaty.

Over the years, Canada has played a vital role in the implementation of various practices to ensure the security of the human race. Most recently, it has been involved in developing the Non-proliferation of Nuclear Arms Treaty, and played a pioneer role in having land mines banned.

Canadian and Quebec public opinion is behind all of the Canadian government's efforts, and Canada's anti-nuclear action is supported by a sizeable portion of the population.

An Angus Reid poll released last spring gives us some very clear indications on this. When respondents were asked whether nuclear weapons made the world more or less dangerous, three times as many Canadians and Quebeckers opted for “more dangerous”. No doubt about it, Canadians and Quebeckers approve of all initiatives toward nuclear disarmament, including the Comprehensive Nuclear Test-Ban Treaty we have before us today.

By voting in favour of the implementation of the comprehensive test-ban treaty, the Bloc Quebecois feels we are taking another important step along the path to disarmament. Furthermore, in recent weeks, two new international instruments have reached the point of ratification needed for their implementation and have joined the panoply of agreements that are bringing us closer to a sustainable peace. I refer to the anti-personnel mines treaty we have already mentioned and the treaty banning the use of anti-aircraft weapons.

Once this new treaty is ratified, we must continue to work for disarmament by ensuring progress in three other areas: the ban on the production of fissionable material for nuclear arms, the non-military use of atomic energy and the non-proliferation of light weapons.

A few weeks ago, Canada's permanent ambassador to the UN for disarmament was appointed chair of the committee negotiating an international agreement on the production of fissionable material.

Within the context of the conference on disarmament, 60 countries are prepared to begin discussions. As we know, the conference on disarmament is where the chemical weapons convention and the comprehensive nuclear test-ban treaty, which we are discussing today, were negotiated. If the conference manages to ban fissionable materials for nuclear weapons, we will have taken another step toward nuclear disarmament.

I also want to raise a problem frequently raised in this House, which an agreement on the banning of fissionable materials for nuclear weapons would never resolve. It is the use by the military of technology developed for civilian purposes. Canada's behaviour is not entirely blameless in this matter, and while it denies it, our hands are not totally clean.

Although Canada never intended to become involved in nuclear proliferation, its atomic energy program has unfortunately been used to create bombs. According to information from the Canadian Nuclear Association, India apparently has enough plutonium to build 455 atomic bombs, if all the plutonium available to it is added up, whether it comes from Canadian reactors or was acquired specifically to build bombs.

Given that 8 of the 10 Indian nuclear reactors are Candu reactors, we should take a look at our role as exporter of nuclear technology.

The only nuclear reactor in Pakistan is a Candu and, according to some new data, Pakistan may have the capacity to manufacture 100 nuclear bombs.

If that is the case, should Canada not take action and look further into this to prevent our nuclear energy program from being used for military purposes? I shall not get into the whole issue of transporting and stocking radioactive waste here in Canada, which is another problem Canada will have to address very soon.

Finally, the signatories will also have to put an end to the conventional arms race, which makes for a growing trade in developing countries, at the expense of economic, social and cultural development.

Let us bear in mind that, in the 1980s, export of light and heavy weaponry to the third world represented 70% of the industrialized nations' total foreign trade. The international community clearly has a responsibility toward the have not nations that have grown poorer so that industrialized nations and arms lobbies could get even richer.

In the 1990s, in spite of a substantial drop in the export of heavy weaponry to developing countries, light weapons have been proliferating at an alarming rate. One analysis shows the following:

From 1980 to 1995, 10 African states with a total population of 150 million were torn by civil war. The death toll was between 3.8 and 6.9 million, almost all victims of light weapons—Western leaders are apparently more concerned by arms stockpiling in third-world hot spots, where they are asked to send peacekeeping forces. On the one hand, rich countries try to put an end to conflicts while, on the other hand, they continue to supply weapons to the belligerents.

Time has come for this contradiction to stop.

Again, however, action is required and there are solutions. The ratification of the land mines treaty is one example that gives us hope that a multilateral small arms agreement will be signed.

This summer, one of the concerns the Minister of Foreign Affairs voiced about the security of humankind had to do with the small arms threat. I urge the minister not just to work with NGOs, but to put pressure on the countries that import and export small arms in order to prevent their proliferation.

Humanity wants to be solidly on the road to peace. It is with conviction and great hope that I support Bill C-52, an act to implement the Comprehensive Nuclear Test-Ban Treaty.

If Canada becomes a member of the UN Security Council this week, the Bloc Quebecois hopes it will keep its guard up. It would be unfortunate if Canada were to be content to point to its track record as a defender of peace and human rights. Furthermore, current events provide us with frequent examples of the dangers of resting on one's laurels.

In this year marking the 50th anniversary of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, much attention has been given to the role of a Canadian, John. P. Humphrey, in writing it. But a recent article by jurist William Schabas reminds us that Canada very nearly abstained from voting in favour of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights on December 10, 1948. Canada's good reputation must be earned anew every day.

Canada must actively demonstrate its commitment to peace and human rights. The Bloc Quebecois sees the Comprehensive Nuclear Test-Ban Treaty as another step on the road to the security of humanity and lasting world peace. But it is not the last, as we have seen.

I would go even further and say that Canada must use all the means and tribunals at its disposal in order to banish nuclear weapons from the face of the earth, before life itself is extinguished on this planet, accidentally or otherwise.

Here, as in many other areas, Canada must never stop demonstrating its courage, will and conviction if it is to continue to live up to its reputation. Canadians and Quebeckers expect nothing less.

[Libby Davies, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I am very pleased to rise in the House today to support Bill C-52, an act to implement the comprehensive nuclear test ban treaty.

The debate on this bill and the fact that Canada is supporting the comprehensive nuclear test ban treaty is a very positive step we are taking as a nation. I have to say as someone who has been involved in the peace movement for a long time like many other citizens in Canada, any small step we take toward disarmament and nuclear disarmament is a sign of hope and optimism for the future of our world.

Unfortunately the reality is that we still face a very desperate situation. We now have eight nations in the world and maybe more which contain nuclear weapons and nuclear capability. We know these nations: Russia, the United States, France, China, the United Kingdom, Israel, India and Pakistan. Even today after the cold war and unfortunately when many people think that the threat of nuclear weapons has been abolished, we still have in existence on our planet 34,000 nuclear weapons. The threat is something which is still very present and very grave.

These unquestionably are weapons of mass destruction. They are weapons of mass destruction not only in terms of our environment. We know the destruction caused by a nuclear accident on a Trident submarine or any other accident would be catastrophic to our environment. More than that, we also know that these weapons pose the greatest danger to civilian populations and to our planet as a whole. We have to be aware of and realize that this danger is still very present.

We also know that the cost of maintaining this vast military industrial complex that has produced these weapons of mass destruction is something that is literally eating away the earth's resources.

I just came back from a mission to Southeast Asia with the Canadian Council for International Co-operation. I witnessed firsthand the devastation of the impact of the economic crisis in Indonesia and Thailand. I could not help but think that on this planet Earth we have the resources, we have the capability, we have the strength if we have the political will to ensure that there is not unemployment, that there is not hunger and that there are not children on the streets.

In Indonesia 100 million people are living below the poverty line. If we had our priorities straight and if they were aimed and directed toward funding and meeting human needs instead of the stockpiling, storage and activation of nuclear weapons, then children would not be dying, children would not be desperate and going without education and health care. Families would have adequate housing and people would have jobs.

The reality is that although this is a very good step and the nuclear test ban treaty is a very positive sign, unfortunately progress has been very slow. In 1968 the non-proliferation treaty was signed but the reality is that we have just gone through the last year where we have seen India and Pakistan conduct nuclear tests. There was outrage and condemnation around the world.

Article VI of the 1968 non-proliferation treaty states:

Each of the parties to the treaty undertakes to pursue negotiations in good faith on effective measures relating to cessation of the nuclear arms race at an early date and to nuclear disarmament, and on a treaty on general and complete disarmament under strict and effective international control.

The nuclear weapon states have not lived up to their end of the bargain. This aspect of the treaty which passed in 1968 has not come to fruition. The United States and other countries have not shown the leadership which is necessary to ensure that article VI is actually implemented.

One of the things we want today in this House is that we want the Canadian government to show leadership instead of just adopting its me too status, as we have seen so often. We want the Canadian government to speak out at the United Nations and other international forums and call on nuclear weapon states to abide by and to fulfil article VI of the non-proliferation treaty.

If that happens, the dynamic in the international situation would change. Nations such as India and Pakistan would have some faith and respect that the nuclear weapon states are actually committed to taking real steps toward nuclear disarmament.

One of the issues that needs to be debated today is not just the passage of this bill and the fact that all members of the House are supporting this bill but we must also look at what else Canada could do to ensure that there is a general and complete nuclear disarmament.

Unfortunately Canada still provides airspace and low level flight ranges for nuclear bomber training. Unfortunately we still host nuclear powered and potentially nuclear armed submarines in Canadian waters.

Of course, as it is the subject of many debates in this House, we know politically and diplomatically that Canada has consistently supported U.S. and NATO nuclear policies, including, if we can believe it in 1998, a policy that is still on the books which is the option of the first use of nuclear weapons.

That is really something which is quite horrific, and the Canadian people have stated that over and over again. In fact, a recent Angus Reid poll showed the commitment and the strength of the Canadian people. They want to see the abolition of nuclear weapons.

When it comes to Canada's complicity in the arms trade in not fulfilling article VI of the non-proliferation treaty, we can see that although this is a good step today, we still have a long, long way to go. That is what we are calling on the Canadian government to do here today.

Canada should stop its Candu reactor sales, for example, to countries with poor human rights records such as China and Turkey. Canada could become a nuclear weapons free zone.

During the 1980s at the height of the peace movement in Canada, many citizens groups across the country worked very hard to convince municipal authorities and local jurisdictions to adopt nuclear weapons free zones in Canada. This is something that could be done on a national basis.

Another leadership position Canada could take is it could give notice to terminate the agreement between Canada and the U.S. in establishing the torpedo testing range at Nanoose Bay in the Strait of Georgia, British Columbia. This is something that is very close to me and my involvement in the peace movement in B.C. The citizens of that area have worked long and hard to put pressure on the Canadian government to terminate that agreement so that we are not using our waters and our facilities for the testing of those submarines.

Something else that is important is that at the UN, Canada must vote in favour of multilateral negotiations that would lead to an early conclusion of a nuclear weapons convention. It is simply not good enough to say that we have a comprehensive test ban treaty and the non-proliferation treaty. We need to see on the international stage that Canada is taking the lead at the United Nations and is not blindly following the position of the United States.

It would be a wonderful thing if Canada would join the new agenda coalition of middle power states that are calling on the nuclear weapon states to make an unequivocal commitment to enter and to conclude negotiations leading to the elimination of nuclear weapons. This new agenda coalition is a very significant development that has taken place in the last few months. It is something Canada should be part of. We should not be opposing it. We should be an active participant in the new agenda coalition.

Canadians have a sense of what it is that we can do when we have the political will to do it. We only have to look at the leadership Canada showed on land mines to know that as a middle power we can generate the momentum, we can generate the solidarity of the NGO community as well as various nations to work together to produce a land mines convention. The same can be done to abolish nuclear weapons. This is what the NDP believes Canada's role should be. We believe that very firmly.

I want to speak about the role of citizens in the peace movement and in their work for disarmament. Governments take actions but often they are as a result of the work at the grassroots level, the pressure that has come from local communities at a provincial level and at a national level. A saying often used in the peace movement is that if the people lead, eventually their leaders will follow.

One of the things I want to do today is pay tribute to the peace groups in Canada that have tirelessly committed themselves and their very limited resources to a campaign and a movement for the abolition of nuclear weapons. Canada is very involved in the campaign Abolition 2000 through the Canadian Network to Abolish Nuclear Weapons. That organization has been instrumental in galvanizing community support and keeping this issue alive, keeping it before the Canadian government and elected representatives.

Recently it had a postcard campaign and distributed 10,000 postcards. It called on the Prime Minister to immediately call an emergency meeting of all states and negotiate a treaty to abolish all nuclear weapons. The organization points out in its postcard campaign that in 1996 the World Court ruled that the use of nuclear weapons is illegal. It also points out the recent Angus Reid poll that indicated that more than 90% of Canadians support nuclear disarmament.

That is the work of the Canadian Network to Abolish Nuclear Weapons. It has worked very hard in an international campaign to bring about the sustained pressure not just on our government but on other governments to fulfil the obligations of article VI of the non-proliferation treaty.

The July 1996 ruling from the World Court gave momentum to the movement. The World Court ruled that the use of nuclear weapons violates international and humanitarian law. It was a very significant ruling.

There is another thing I would like to draw attention to in terms of citizen involvement. In the past year in my province of British Columbia our local peace coalition, an organization of more than 200 from labour, churches, peace groups, communities and women's organizations, called End the Arms Race, organized a citizens weapons inspection team.

In February of this year I was very proud to be part of a delegation that went down to Bangor, Washington, just south of Vancouver and south of Seattle in the state of Washington where a very large U.S. naval base is located and where the Trident submarines are located.

While there we conducted a citizens weapons inspection during the midst of yet another escalating crisis in the Persian Gulf where our Canadian government was prepared to follow the American military intervention. I remember the debate in the House in February when my colleagues in the NDP spoke out strongly. We called on the Canadian government to take an independent course and to seek a diplomatic resolution instead of military intervention and military threat in a region that has suffered so badly already.

By organizing the citizens weapons inspection team we wanted to draw attention to the fact that the most significant weapons of mass destruction on the globe are actually located to the south in the United States. We visited Bangor, Washington, and attempted to gain access to the site to do a citizens inspection and to point out to the commander of the base that stockpiling and storage of these weapons on the base was in violation of international law.

I flew over the huge site in a small airplane and did a visual inspection of the vast bunkers and silos that contain weapons of mass destruction. It was a very eerie feeling to fly over the base and to see the immense power and resources contained at Bangor, Washington. These resources were ready to be unleashed at a moment's notice because the U.S. still has a policy of first option in the use of nuclear weapons.

In August 1998 I travelled with a group of citizens to Groton, Connecticut, which is the home of the Electric Boat Company, a U.S. corporation that produces the delivery system for weapons of mass destruction. It produces the Trident submarine. We wanted to draw attention to the fact that these weapons of mass destruction were located very close to us and were in convention of international law.

When we went to Groton, Connecticut, we were also very fortunate to visit the United Nations and to meet with the under secretary general of disarmament. We had a very positive meeting with him and discussed the necessity for ordinary people to be involved in the process.

It is the united voice of people from across Canada and around the globe that has pressured the United Nations and their own domestic governments into adopting the various conventions we now see as a small sign of the progress being made. I was very proud to be part of those delegations that included Peter Coombe, president of End the Arms Race; Murray Dobbin of the Council of Canadians; Edward Schmitt and Phyllis Creighton of the Anglican Church of Canada; and David Morgan, a very well know peace activist who is president of Veterans Against Nuclear Arms.

It is a testament to the work of these organization that we can stand in the House today and feel a sense of optimism and hope in the implementation of Bill C-52 respecting the comprehensive nuclear test ban treaty that Canada will have taken at least another small step toward the abolition of nuclear weapons. We need to do much more and Canada's record has not been great in this area.

As my colleague from Burnaby and other members of the NDP have done, I call on the Canadian government to show the leadership that it did on the land mines, to show the commitment to abide by article 6 of the non-proliferation treaty, and to live up to the court ruling of the World Court for all to say once and for all that we can rid the world of nuclear weapons. We can divert the billions of dollars expended on infrastructure for nuclear weapons and refocus those funds that are desperately needed to meet our human needs, not just here in Canada but around the world.

[Réal Ménard, Bloc, Hochelaga—Maisonneuve, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I am extremely pleased to speak on the Comprehensive Nuclear Test-ban Treaty Implementation Act. Part of my great enthusiasm harks back to my youth, for when I was 18 or 19 I was very much involved in the peace movement.

From those years I have always retained my conviction that, if we must participate in international life—and heaven knows we must—we need to set ourselves the objective of using our powers of persuasion within major multilateral forums to convince others through the strength of our convictions, the strength of our arguments.

What does a bill like this one tell us? That we will not accept nuclear power as one of the means to maintain international order.

Rising above all partisan differences, it must be said that these ideas have support in Quebec, and in English Canada as well, we must acknowledge. The hon. member for Beauharnois—Salaberry has reminded us in caucus on a number of occasions that Canada was a very early signatory of the Nuclear Non-proliferation Treaty, as well as the Limited Test Ban Treaty of the early sixties. All this to indicate to you that these ideas are part of our political community, for which we should rejoice.

But where will an act and a treaty such as these lead us? We will have an opportunity to offer a bit of an explanation on the mechanisms. The act and the treaty are valuable as a model, for we are well aware that some states still have nuclear weapons today, and others are being tempted, spontaneously—or so one might think, anyway—and if there were no pressure from the international community, would conclude that there is some security in having nuclear arms, in continuing to do research and to increase the sophistication of prototypes. This is a threat to international peace, directly and indirectly.

One cannot, of course, avoid thinking of India, a place I have had the pleasure of visiting. One does not need to be long in India to realize that many other needs need to be addressed and other resources developed, rather than investing in nuclear weapons production or related technologies. Then, of course, there is Pakistan, and some other countries such as North Korea.

By becoming a party to this international treaty, Canada is making a commitment to contribute financially to its implementation, but also to assume three specific responsibilities which I want to mention, even though I am not as knowledgeable as the members of the parliamentary committee, who worked really hard on this issue. We should explain to those who are listening to us today that the signing of this treaty by Canada, as one of the 44 countries expected to sign it, means of course that we pledge to criminalize nuclear testing in Canada.

We also have an obligation to report any chemical explosion greater than 300 tonnes TNT-equivalent. Any breach of this obligation will be considered to be an indictable offence. Of course, anyone who causes a nuclear explosion, as well as that person's associates, will face a jail sentence.

It is interesting to see that this treaty will also provide us with more sophisticated means to detect what could be called a nuclear potential.

Canada will take part in a vast international monitoring system that will rely on a number of networks and on countries that will allocate resources to make it possible to not only monitor but also detect, locate and measure nuclear explosions.

One can see the preventive nature of this international monitoring system, which will use 321 monitoring stations. Canada will do its share, since about 15 of these stations will operate on its territory.

This is interesting, because an idea is turning into reality. This is cause for celebration for those of us who are involved in the peace movement. This bears repeating. Quebec has traditionally been very strongly in favour of denuclearization, in favour of making sure no one in the international community can use the nuclear threat for coercive purposes.

I remember being in Montreal—in my early twenties, which is in sharp contrast with members whose names I shall withhold—when the city was declared a nuclear free zone. I am very pleased with the fact that Montreal was one of the first cities in the world to make this kind of commitment, and I think we have every reason to be proud of that.

We are debating nuclear weapons today, but this is an opportunity to make connections with the whole military industry. As I recall, and my colleagues will also recall this, one of the first actions taken by the leader of the Bloc Quebecois, who is now the Premier of Quebec and will be for a long time—this is our strong belief, and I can see my colleague nodding in agreement, he being one of the finest minds of his generation, I might say without fear of exaggerating, and above all an extremely wise statesman—was to appoint me, the young member for Hochelaga—Maisonneuve, a dashing idealist, happy to be here while not losing sight of the need to defend the interests of Quebec, as the critic for conversion of the military industry to civilian uses.

It all hangs together. Today, 44 designated governments are being asked by the international community to ratify a treaty that will ban nuclear testing.

In broader terms, we must strive to ensure that the defence industry, which has great influence in certain governments, will quietly convert to the use of civilian technologies.

I have worked very hard, and not alone because you know how ineffectual we are on our own, but the Bloc Quebecois as a whole quickly understood that in one very modest way, aware of the more international stakes, we could change things in our own communities by putting pressure on nuclear arms and defence technology producers to convert.

It is important for us as members of parliament to make this a concern, because we know very well that in countries where governments could effect the sort of conversion I am talking about, it is not done without government help. For example, the United States is resolutely following this route, with the help of the government.

When you produce gunpowder, munitions or other items related to military technology, you need public support to effect such a conversion, to scout out new markets, to change production systems and to come up with a better use for civilian purposes.

It all hangs together. The issue of nuclear bans and control and the nuclear test ban are an extension of the campaign we in the Bloc Quebecois have waged in order to reduce the use of defence technologies.

I was saying three obligations would ensue from Canada's ratification of the comprehensive nuclear test-ban treaty. I think it also has to be said that Canada, like Quebec, has a responsibility to encourage the designated countries to make a commitment quickly in their national parliaments to ratify this treaty, which must soon take effect.

It is not insignificant that some 20 states have already ratified this treaty.

[An hon. member]

Twenty-one.

[Réal Ménard, Bloc, Hochelaga—Maisonneuve, QC]

The hon. member tells me it is 21. Is that right?

It is that very quest for accuracy that means she always has the latest information available. What a wonderful team we are.

Let me hasten to add that 21 states have ratified the treaty. A number of these are developing countries. Others are so-called developed countries. I will list them quickly, so that members will know what we are talking about. They are: Jordan, Germany, Grenada—no pun intended, Spain, Brazil, Australia, France, the United Kingdom, Austria, Slovakia, Peru, Mongolia, Japan, Ecuador and the Fiji Islands.

We must speak plainly today for the benefit of those listening. This is truly an international movement. It is quite different from the situation in 1963 when the first partial test-ban treaty was signed, although that was important in its own way, make no mistake. Looking back, however, there is no denying that the 1963 treaty, with its much shorter list of signatories, was much more limited in scope than the treaty we are discussing might be. The same is true of the nuclear non-proliferation treaty.

Today, as parliamentarians, we can be part of a movement that will be echoed in several other parliaments, in press releases and in communities, and that will send the clear message that we will not accept the use of nuclear arms as a means to express one's ideas or to participate in international politics. This is an extremely important step.

Mr. Speaker, as a person who has a great deal of experience and a wealth of knowledge—as confirmed by your grey hair—you will remember that about 30 years ago, when I was a university student—it was not that long ago, as I am barely into my 30s—as are our young pages, we talked about the balance of terror. That was a reality.

There were various schools of thought concerning the international situation, including the notion of flexible response and that of the balance of terror. At the time, this was a preconceived notion in the international community.

The Minister of Public Works will remember that. It was a preconceived notion about the possibility, for certain states, to own nuclear weapons and, ultimately, to use them. What pacifists like the hon. member for Laval East and myself feared was of course that these states would not spend so much money merely to stockpile nuclear weapons, without thinking of using them some day.

That is why we said it did not make sense not to have international controls, moratoriums and inspection systems.

The international inspection system is not the only major feature of the treaty that we, as parliamentarians, will help promote. There will be some 300 sites throughout the world that can detect, analyze and process all sophisticated systems and movements that may be linked to nuclear weapons.

Not only is this system going to exist—and I am told it will cost $6 to $7 million for Canada's 15 or so stations—but as well there will be the possibility, if one of the signatory countries commits a violation, for pressure to be brought to bear, so that other signatories can call for a system of inspection. If there is a refusal to co-operate, the case can be taken as far as the security council.

It is more or less in keeping with Montesquieu's principle of equilibrium that the international community will have the ability to pressure recalcitrant states and those who refuse to honour their signature.

Let us remember, and let us take pride in this and promote it: this is a treaty to prevent the use of nuclear testing as a provocative symbol of a nation's power. That is nothing to be sneezed at.

Now, we must be clear, this is not something that happens automatically. There are a number of mechanisms that must be adhered to for enforcement of the treaty. What we are discussing here is a multilateral approach involving a number of states. The treaty will come into effect 180 days after ratification by a certain number of states.

First, there is a reference to 44 designated states. It must be pointed out that Canada is one of these. It has been said already that 21 have signed, to be exact, with more to come. Canada and Quebec must play a persuasive and promotional role, and make their voices heard so as to encourage countries like Vietnam, the Ukraine, Turkey and Switzerland to follow suit.

Switzerland has long been a model of a peaceful country active in international relations. It had a hands-off policy while being present anywhere major events were taking place. Many in this place have much to learn from this. South Africa and many other countries also provided learning experiences.

This was the train of events. There are five nuclear powers and a number of nations that decided on their own, probably with a little pressure from the international community, not to join the nuclear club. France is a case in point. The French are our neighbours across the Atlantic; they are like-minded people. However, we must not forget that, until recently, France was involved in nuclear testing. It is refreshing, interesting and comforting to think that France, along with four other nuclear powers, has now agreed to sign the treaty.

I am thrilled to see that, as parliamentarians, we can contribute to a better world. This debate today is about the future, not the past. We can help build a better world knowing that, in a democracy, the best way to support or defeat an idea is to put forward a better one. This can only be done in a constitutional state, and through persuasion. Persuasion is this capacity to debate and exchange ideas in parliament and any other elected forum, where the power of words is what gives rise to policies.

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland)]

It is my duty, pursuant to Standing Order 38, to inform the House that the questions to be raised tonight at the time of adjournment are as follows: the hon. member for Tobique-Mactaquac, Royal Canadian Mint; the hon. member for Frontenac—Mégantic, BC Mine in Black Lake.

[Bill Blaikie, NDP, Winnipeg—Transcona, MB]

Mr. Speaker, I am very pleased to be able to participate in this debate. It is not often we get to talk about the question of nuclear testing or the whole issue of nuclear weapons. I welcome the opportunity to do so. We certainly do not intend to obstruct the passage of this particular bill. I think all parties in the House are agreed that it should pass with dispatch.

Nevertheless, it does provide an opportunity to comment on a very pressing and urgent matter and that is the future of the planet. If current conditions are allowed to persist a false sense of safety which a lot of people acquired as a result of the end of the cold war may come to a horrible end when we realize that we actually live in a world that is arguably much more dangerous than the world that we rightly perceived as dangerous during the cold war.

As a member of my particular generation I have perhaps been more sensitive to this issue than some others. I am a baby boomer. I am part of the post-Hiroshima generation. I was born in the fifties and was exposed as a child in western Canada to all the fallout from American testing in the northwestern United States, the consequences of which we are still learning about through studies that come forward. Most recently a study came forward with respect to this particular issue.

I remember very well being a grade 6 student at Westview Elementary in Transcona in 1962 when the Cuban missile crisis was upon us. I remember going to school that afternoon, after having been home for lunch, knowing that sometime in the early afternoon the Russian ships would meet the American blockade. It was uncertain whether that would be the end of the world. At least that was the way it was seen, that it would be the beginning of a nuclear conflagration which would destroy the human race. It is something that has always stuck with me.

As children we experienced terror. We practised bombing exercises where we would hide under our desks. We learned how to peel bananas because that was the only kind of food we would be able to eat, as everything else would be radioactive.

I say all this by way of being very grateful in many respects that my own children have not had to experience the nearness and the proximity of nuclear weapons and nuclear war in that way. But having said that, the fact remains that their future and the future of the human prospect is every bit as much in peril today as it was then. It is just that we have convinced ourselves that this is no longer the case.

There are many more nuclear weapons and many more powerful nuclear weapons in the world today than there were when I was that grade 6 child worrying about the destruction of the human race. There is much less control over the nuclear weapons that exist in the world today than there was in 1962 when I was having my first experience with nuclear terror.

What we need to do today is say yes. Let us ratify the comprehensive test ban treaty, but let us realize that the real task for the human race and for the planet is to abolish nuclear weapons entirely, once and for all, and seize the moment which is now before us after the end of the cold war to do so. If we do not do it soon we will live in a world in which nuclear weapons will have proliferated all across the world.

It will not only be India and Pakistan. It will be country after country after country acquiring nuclear weapons capability as a way of saying they have status in the world, as a way of saying they want to be powerful players in the world. This kind of nuclear technology is more and more available as a result of the end of the cold war and the way it ended, which is to say as a result of the rather chaotic disintegration of the Soviet Union and the way in which nuclear technology, technicians and equipment have become available on the black market and officially.

We live in a very dangerous world. I believe the Canadian government should be showing a lot more leadership than it is in trying to get members of the nuclear club to face up to their responsibilities in this critical historical moment.

We belong to NATO and in NATO we have Britain, France and the United States, three of the more powerful members of the nuclear club. We also have Russia which is affiliated with NATO in the NATO-Russia Council. We have a context in which real moral pressure, and ultimately more moral than political pressure, could be put on these members of the nuclear club to do what is right now for all time and for all human beings that will come into existence in the future and whose potential existence is threatened at this time by inaction.

There was a great deal of self-righteousness in the House and across the land when India and Pakistan tested nuclear weapons. To some extent that outrage was justified. However in another way it was not. In another way it was a form of hypocrisy in the sense that the NATO countries and anyone else who as part of the nuclear club pointed the finger at India and Pakistan were acting in a hypocritical way if they were not willing to entertain the notion of total nuclear disarmament, of the abolition of nuclear weapons.

In the absence of a commitment by the existing nuclear club to do so, it seems to me that India, Pakistan and other countries to follow will have an argument which I feel they should be deprived of. They can only be deprived of that argument if the members of the nuclear club act appropriately.

Canada is part of that club. We make a big deal about how we do not have nuclear weapons. However, we have been part of this thing from the beginning, from the Manhattan project on. We have also been part of it through our own nuclear industry, the export of reactors, and our general commitment to nuclear technology even though we always say it is for peaceful purposes.

We have some repenting and rethinking to do on this. We have an opportunity to show some leadership. I would certainly hope we would do so and do so soon for the sake of the people to follow us.

Nuclear weapons are just a form of warfare that we deplore when we see it in microcosm. When we see civilians in Kosovo or anywhere else being tortured, killed, having their houses burned and their homes destroyed, we think that is terrible, despicable and evil. We want something to be done about that and something should be.

However, what is nuclear war except a massive hostage taking of the civilian populations of other countries, basically saying that we would do on a scale which is unimaginable what we find contemptible and disgusting on a small scale? How have we managed to do this to ourselves in our imagination that we can counsel as realpolitik, as good strategic thinking, the wholesale destruction of the planet and entire civilian populations when we reject this on a much smaller scale? Somehow it does not strike us the same way in both cases, and that is unacceptable.

I would close by recalling the words of George F. Kennan, a distinguished American diplomat, a cold war diplomat, who said—and I am paraphrasing because I do not have the quote with me—something to the effect that the intention of the west, or for that matter anyone else, to destroy creation, to put at risk the future of planet earth, the human prospect and the lives of all the non-human creatures that also exist on this planet, is nothing more than the ultimate blasphemy offered up to God, saying we reject your creation; we reject our role as creatures; and we are going to set ourselves up not as gods but in this case as demons.

Who would even think, for the sake of a particular civilization, for the sake of a particular economic system or for the sake of a particular strategic stance, of destroying the human prospect? It is a blasphemy and something I hope the human race will very soon erase from its midst.

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland)]

Is the House ready for the question?

[Some hon. members]

Question.

[Don Boudria, Liberal, Leader of the Government in the House of Commons]

Mr. Speaker, I believe you would find unanimous consent to deal with the bill in committee of the whole now.

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland)]

Is it agreed?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

(Motion agreed to, bill read the second time and, by unanimous consent, the House went into committee thereon, Mr. McClelland in the chair)

[The Deputy Chairman]

Order, please. House in committee of the whole on Bill C-52, an act to implement the comprehensive nuclear test ban treaty.

Shall Clause 2 carry?

(On clause 2)

[Svend Robinson, NDP, Burnaby—Douglas, BC]

Mr. Chairman, I have a question for the minister. This clause includes a reference to the comprehensive nuclear test ban treaty signed in New York in September 1996.

The minister will know that one of the provisions of that treaty is a commitment in article 6 by nuclear weapons states to move toward complete prohibition of nuclear weapons.

The minister will also know that later this fall a resolution is coming before the United Nations General Assembly from the new agenda coalition including South Africa, Brazil, Egypt, Ireland, Mexico, New Zealand, Slovenia and Sweden. That resolution will be urging the nuclear weapons states to proceed to an early conclusion of a nuclear weapons convention.

Last year Canada chose not to support this resolution. Will Canada show leadership this year and respond to the appeal by South African President Nelson Mandela to Canada and other countries, and will indeed support this very important resolution?

[Lloyd Axworthy, Liberal, Minister of Foreign Affairs]

Mr. Chairman, when the minister of foreign affairs from Ireland was in Canada in the last two days we had the opportunity to discuss this matter with him.

We indicated that we had to see the exact wording. They have not finalized the exact wording of the resolution. Once that is finalized, we will have further discussions with the group of eight.

(Clause 2 agreed to)

(Clauses 3 to 6 inclusive agreed to)

(On clause 7)

[Svend Robinson, NDP, Burnaby—Douglas, BC]

Mr. Chairman, the minister spoke eloquently earlier today about the importance of Canada's leadership in this area, particularly about accelerating the movement of nuclear weapons states to make a commitment to get rid of nuclear weapons.

What action is the minister prepared to undertake to the House to encourage NATO as part of its strategic concept review, which I believe is due in April 1999, to show more leadership and more vision in this area and particularly to encourage NATO to revisit the issue of the first use policy of nuclear weapons?

[Lloyd Axworthy, Liberal, Minister of Foreign Affairs]

Mr. Chairman, as the hon. member will know, about a year ago we addressed a reference to the standing committee on foreign affairs to look at the question of nuclear weapons policy. Part of that reference included the consideration of how it would apply within our NATO obligations.

We are very much looking forward to the assessment the committee has made after quite extensive consultation with Canadians. I think it would be premature for me to make a judgment till I have had the opportunity to hear from the committee, which I cherish and treasure in terms of its findings and recommendations.

(Clause 7 agreed to)

(Clauses 8 and 9 agreed to)

(Clause 10)

[Daniel Turp, Bloc, Beauharnois—Salaberry, QC]

moved:

That Bill C-52, in Clause 10, be amended by replacing, in the French version, line 26 on page 6 with the following:

“rapport sur l'exécution du Traité par le”

Mr. Chairman, the Bloc Quebecois proposed this amendment, which would make a very minor change in the French version of the bill by replacing the word “observation” with the word “exécution”, which is more appropriate in French.

[Lloyd Axworthy, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

We agree with the amendment.

[Daniel Turp, Bloc, Beauharnois—Salaberry, QC]

Mr. Chairman, I simply wish to remind the House that the purpose of the amendment is to improve the French version of the provision.

The minister seems to be in agreement. This brings the French more into line with all the other provisions.

[The Deputy Chairman]

Shall the amendment carry?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

(Amendment agreed to)

[Daniel Turp, Bloc, Beauharnois—Salaberry, QC]

Mr. Chairman, before adopting the clause, I would like to put a question to the minister about the national authority.

This morning, while the Reform Party member was addressing this issue, he claimed that the costs of implementing the treaty and creating this national authority would be exorbitant. He mentioned that over $8 million would have to be set aside for implementation.

I would like the minister to tell us whether that is the case and if he considers this amount reasonable.

[Lloyd Axworthy, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

Mr. Chairman, I thank the member for the question.

We do not envision that any new staff would be drawn into the authority. Staff would come from existing departments in those areas. There could be some cost in terms of international obligations but there would be no additional new staff. The question of some kind of burgeoning bureaucracy simply does not apply.