Debates of Oct. 6th, 1998

Comprehensive Nuclear Test-Ban Treaty Implementation Act

[Keith Martin, Reform, Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I thank my hon. colleague for his very pointed and interesting speech.

I am very interested in one aspect, though, that perhaps we have not touched upon. It is one of the greatest threats when it comes to the potential for a nuclear disaster taking place in the future. I am referring to the trafficking of small amounts of fissile material, which in my view is one of the most serious threats to international security that exists today, particularly in view of the fact that the former U.S.S.R. nations including Russia are economically impoverished and have a significant amount of nuclear material, in the order of up to 30,000 nuclear weapons, and the fissile material that goes with it.

Would my colleague and his party be interested in working with members across the House to develop a common strategy to present to the international community to deal with the accounting, monitoring and ultimate destruction of fissile nuclear material?

[David Price, Progressive Conservative, Compton—Stanstead, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I thank the member very much for the question. That is one thing I did not actually raise in my speech.

The Russians have 30,000 weapons. With the economic situation in Russia that creates the desire for them, instead of scrapping weapons, to probably try to sell them off. There will definitely be a market. We would be happy to do anything we could to get together with a group to try to find a solution to this problem.

Unfortunately, as I have said, the Russians will not scrap them. They will try to sell them. The people they will be selling them to obviously are not the major nuclear forces. They will be as I said before the rogues. That is where the danger lies. Again, I would be very happy to work on any project like that.

[Svend Robinson, NDP, Burnaby—Douglas, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I have a very brief question. Perhaps the member for Compton—Stanstead did not hear my initial question. I want to repeat it and ask for an answer.

Does the Progressive Conservative Party support the suggestion that Canada should be taking a lead in urging the immediate de-alerting of the nuclear arsenals of all nuclear states?

[David Price, Progressive Conservative, Compton—Stanstead, QC]

Mr. Speaker, to the member for Burnaby—Douglas, the very simple answer is yes. I will leave it at that.

[Sarkis Assadourian, Liberal, Brampton Centre, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I followed carefully the speech given by the hon. member. I have a question for him.

Last year or the year before when we started working on a land mine ban it was obvious for most of us that the U.S., Russia and China would not go along with it. Despite that we went ahead and had the treaty signed by over 40 countries. It is now international law.

The hon. member should express in the House if he agrees with the principle of banning rather than just the banning of weapons now. If he does not accept that principle, how can we work toward it? How can we put pressure on governments to give up nuclear weapons?

A few months ago when India and Pakistan exploded weapons the international community was very concerned. Two weeks ago both countries expressed that they were prepared to sign on to the nuclear test ban treaty. That is a step forward and we should encourage it.

The only country not to comply or to express concern and sign the treaty is Israel. We have to work together to put pressure on all countries to comply with the intent of the ban so we can go forward into the next century with hopefully more peace of mind for everybody.

[David Price, Progressive Conservative, Compton—Stanstead, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I thank the member for his question. I am not clear what exactly he was asking. It was more a statement than a question.

There is no question that if we knew what would happen in the next 15 years it would be very easy to sign on and agree solidly with something. We can look very clearly down the road to see what is coming in the immediate future. We see that a threat is still there. It will not go away tomorrow.

The problem is not the countries that have signed the treaty; it is the countries that have not signed the treaty. An arms sale is still going on in the background. We cannot eliminate ours if they are going to be out there. The threat is still there.

We lived through all the years of the cold war. There were no nuclear explosions because one counteracted the other. We are still in that position. We are not in a cold war situation. We might say it is a bit hotter war right now.

[Sarkis Assadourian, Liberal, Brampton Centre, ON]

Mr. Speaker, did the hon. member say that if more nations have nuclear weapons the world would be a safer place? If 100 rather than 10 countries had nuclear weapons, would the world be a safer place? Is that the assertion the hon. member is putting forward?

[David Price, Progressive Conservative, Compton—Stanstead, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I think the hon. member is reading between the lines.

For sure the world is not a safer place because we have more nuclear weapons. We have to reduce nuclear weapons and they will be reduced over a period of time. It will not happen overnight.

[Keith Martin, Reform, Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC]

Mr. Speaker, it is a pleasure to speak to Bill C-52. It is great for Canada, Canadians and the world that we are taking a leadership role in trying to ratify the test ban treaty signed by 150 countries in 1950.

In the cold war era the nuclear weapons threat loomed very large in all our lives. A threat existed not only between the countries of the former Soviet bloc states and Canada. Other nations were beginning to develop nuclear programs. In the post cold war era this threat has changed. Sometimes we may believe the threat is less than in the cold war era.

In reality the threat today is even greater than what it was 15 years ago. The reasons are many. We will get to them in the future but it is for the reason that we have a much greater threat today with respect to nuclear weapons that we are in a position to ratify this treaty and bring it into law. This brings into force the reasons and the rationale and the purpose of the test ban treaty signed in September 1996.

I am a little disappointed that it took us two years after we signed this treaty to the time we came to this House to ratify it and to bring it into force. That is far too long. It should take much less time.

Also the government should keep in mind that it would be useful for parliament to take a look at treaties before these treaties are signed. Constructive ideas exist across party lines to be able to contribute to the nature and essence of these treaties to make them stronger and more relevant to the Canadian public. I think the government would do well to emulate that.

This test ban treaty is only the beginning. As I mentioned, we have a much more dangerous situation in the world and the reason why we have a much more dangerous situation is that nuclear material right now has become far more disbursed, getting into the hands of people who should never have it. In fact, the controls that existed in the cold war era are to some extent gone.

It is absolutely imperative for those controls to be exerted on the fissile material across the world. We do not know the people who have it and we do not know where much of this fissile material is.

The following are some constructive suggestions that the government would perhaps consider in its international talks with respect to nuclear disarmament.

I do not believe, as my colleague from the Conservative Party mentioned, that a comprehensive ban of all nuclear weapons around the world is actually going to take place.

The government has to approve and go after the START III talks, the strategic arms reduction talks. It has to work with other countries to pursue those.

The government should pursue with other countries the banning of multiple independent re-entry vehicle techniques which are multiple independent nuclear warheads that can be dispersed. We also need to pursue a ban on independent and medium range ballistic missiles which could be a significant threat in the Middle East and in South Asia.

The government should take a very strong view with working with other countries to deal with the trafficking of fissile materials.

After 1991 and the collapse of the former U.S.S.R. there were 30,000 nuclear weapons that existed in those countries. Much of that material has gone into Russia but in the collapse of Russia that is taking place right now, no one knows where this material is or who controls it.

There has to be for the independent and collective security of the countries of the world an accounting system regarding where this fissile material is, who has it and to ensure that proper controls and safety measures are there.

There has to be a downsizing of fissile materials. These fissile materials have to go into situations where they cannot be used for the production of nuclear weapons. This is exceedingly important.

The Canberra commission of 1996 put together some very important documents with respect to that. There has to also be a vigorous accounting of these fissile materials which simply does not exist right now.

If we look around the world and see the primary threat with respect to nuclear weapons, it is in the dispersement, the sale and the black market of not only fissile materials but the triggering mechanisms that would enable somebody to produce a nuclear bomb.

It is not very complex science to produce a nuclear bomb and in the wrong hands one could be made. We need not look any further than what Saddam Hussein was saying in Iraq and the intelligence that we have recently regarding how close he was to developing a nuclear weapons potential that could have seriously threatened any kind of peace in the Middle East and caused an environmental disaster.

Speaking of environmental disasters, one thing we are not taking into consideration which is a serious problem is what is taking place with nuclear waste. I understand that Russia has dumped nuclear waste over large segments of Siberia. These fissile materials, these nuclear materials, are highly radioactive, carcinogenic, teratogenic and toxic. Some of them have half lives of hundreds of years. They get into the biosystem and multiply as they go up the food chain.

People eat animals at the top of the food chain and they manage to acquire large amounts of radioactive materials in their systems. One need not look any further than what is happening with aboriginal people in the Arctic to see the high amounts of the substances that exist within their biomass. They have large amounts of these carcinogenic and toxic materials in their tissues. Large amounts of this material have come from Siberia to the Arctic.

It is for this reason that Canadians and this parliament need to be very concerned, aware and interested in what happens to this biological material. It is a serious threat to the health and welfare of not only people but flora and fauna.

Of the 193 countries in September 1996, only 150 countries signed this treaty; 43 did not. We can use our diplomatic initiatives, our embassies, our respect around the world and our diplomatic ability to convince these 43 non-signatories to come on board and sign it. It will not be possible for some of these countries to sign at this moment. But it does not mean we cannot try to get these countries to come on board.

Potential hot spots that need our acute intervention and acute interests involve South Asia between India and Pakistan, and the situation in the Middle East with respect to Iraq and Israel. As mentioned, the situation between Russia and the United States needs to be dealt with. One hidden faction in all this which we do not take into consideration enough is the situation with China. We like to say the United States is the only super power that exists. In my view that is utterly false. China is a super power, has been a super power for some time and has the weapons capability of a super power, both conventional and non-conventional.

I compliment members from across party lines for pursuing the rapid support of this bill and also supporting the ban on nuclear weapons. I do not think it will be feasible for us to ban them outright but we must do whatever we can to pursue the downloading of existing nuclear weapons in the world. We should do our best to remove them and destroy them and to deal with the fissile materials that are out there and to put an urgent dampening control on those nuclear weapon materials. This is not only for our individual security but for our collective security.

[Chuck Strahl, Reform, Fraser Valley, BC]

Mr. Speaker, it is a pleasure to join in this debate today to talk about the test ban treaty and the necessity to have such a treaty in the world. I will detail some of the things the government I hope pursues with vigour over the next months and years as it tries to make this test ban treaty more than just a symbolic measure that is easy to agree with and is easy to endorse; a comprehensive agreement that will cover not only the ones that have signed to date but the problem states, the rogue states, that as of now have refused to do it for a variety of reasons.

I will read into the record again what this bill does. It does implement the test ban treaty that Canada has been in favour of and has endorsed for some time since its inception. It is an attempt to ban the testing of nuclear weapons by limiting nuclear explosions. It spells out severe penalties for Canadians and others if they are involved in the detonation of a nuclear device in Canada. It makes it a crime to aid and abet such an action. It obliges Canadian companies to report any chemical blasts that could be mistaken for nuclear explosions, in other words large scale chemical explosions, in order to monitor the whole process of who is testing what and where.

As the official opposition we generally support this piece of legislation. I would like to bring up a few problems or reservations I have on not so much the legislation but the process we have followed so far.

First, there is in this legislation and in the test ban treaty a mechanism to monitor worldwide any explosions that may be taking place, the magnitude, what was involved, who did it and when and so on. That is a good thing. Canada is certainly doing its part. We have a series of seismic and other tests that will ensure that this monitoring continues and we will do our part.

As in all international agreements, I urge the government to make sure this does not become an excuse for a large scale bureaucracy. I hope it will not but there is always the danger that when there is a multinational organization and an agreement is in place no one watches the bottom line. Certainly there is no bottom line on peace but there is a bottom line on how much this testing should cost and I urge the government just to keep an eye on that. I hope it will and certainly we will be doing that from our side.

I think it has been brought up today in the speeches, but I want to reiterate that we want to make sure there are no illusions on the part of people watching this debate or by the Minister of Foreign Affairs that this is the be all and end all that will somehow bring us the nirvana of perpetual peace on earth.

This is really a small step in securing the idea that nuclear weapons are not desirable and that we should work toward their elimination. That of course is easy to agree with. Again, it is not nirvana, it is not the answer to all this especially given the states the hon. member for Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca has already listed. Look at states like North Korea, India, Pakistan, Libya, Syria, some Middle East countries and so on that are unwilling at this stage to sign the document.

There are reasons they have I suppose or they try to justify for not signing but whatever the reason they are the very states that I think need to be brought into this process. To engage these non-signatories should be the primary goal on the nuclear issue by the foreign affairs minister at this stage.

Whatever pressure or influence Canada can bring over the next while, months and years to come, that should be part of all their discussions with these countries particularly. It is not enough to sit back, put the flowers in the end of the rifle barrel and say all we are saying is give peace a chance. That is not good enough. We need to make sure this test ban treaty is just a start of a vigorous and ongoing campaign to make all countries of the world realize that it is in their best interests to pursue this non-proliferation treaty.

The hard reality is that unruly, unreliable regimes run by unruly and unreliable leaders, and I will pick Saddam Hussein as an example here, show the necessity of future pressure to make these kinds of countries and individuals sign this treaty and to verify that they are following through.

We have to pursue those two things. I do not think anybody thinks Canada is going to whip up atomic bombs and start packing them around in a suitcase. But there is a serious problem with some of these countries.

We need to use our connections, not only with countries that we are not so friendly with, but even with countries that we have longstanding traditional relationships with. In particular, we need to look at India and Pakistan. We have a lot of close ties with those countries. Many people from those countries have immigrated to Canada and are now a part of our Canadian culture.

Pakistan and India are in serious difficulties. They should know that we are willing to talk to them and recognize them as perhaps not a big superpower like the Americans or the Chinese, but certainly a very powerful entity in themselves. We must tell them that we respect their sovereignty. We must encourage them to get on board and do what is best, not just for their own country but for the world, by signing this treaty. Particularly with Pakistan and India we must emphasize that.

I want to emphasize that it is important to me and to the Reform Party that mechanisms be found to encourage the government to bring treaties like this more often to the House of Commons for debate. It is interesting that the committee on foreign affairs has been studying the nuclear issue for some months now and just as it is drafting its report, which will deal with issues like this, the government brings in legislation which says “This is the way we are going to do it”. To tell the members of parliament in the foreign affairs committee “I am interested in seeing your report, but it does not really matter, we are going to proceed as follows” is discouraging.

A better process for international treaties would be to bring the concept either to a committee or to a debate in the House. That would allow members of parliament to at least be a part of the process and to be apprised of where we are. It would allow opposition members to have some input on errors and omissions in the treaty before the government actually signed on the dotted line. We should have that debate and discussion among members of parliament so they feel they have been involved on behalf of the people of Canada.

The government listens carefully to many non-government organizations, to pressure groups, to other countries and to a lot of good debate. I do not deny that it is all worthwhile. But it seems like the last people in the loop are members of parliament. If the government is interested in encouraging knowledge and debate on international relations between Canada and other countries it has to give the House an important role to play in the treaty making process. Because it does not do that it dooms the process to cynicism. That is unfortunate.

This is a good debate today on a good bill. Unfortunately the cart is far ahead of the horse and that is too bad.

It is the position of the official opposition to support this nuclear non-proliferation treaty. We accept the spirit of Bill C-52. As I have said, I hope that the government in the future will use the opportunity not just to educate MPs, but to actually let us feel that we have had an impact on the government's decision making process. If the government would do that it would probably find lots of support for its position. MPs would feel that they had been brought in at the start of the process instead of at the very end.

[Keith Martin, Reform, Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I thank my hon. colleague from Fraser Valley for once again giving an eloquent speech on foreign affairs.

He illustrated the central problem that we have in parliament, wherein parliament is often undemocratized. He articulated the problem by illustrating the example of what has gone on in the foreign affairs committee, an otherwise very good committee made up of good members. The committee has been diligently working on the nuclear issue. It is going to present its findings on this after the bill has been presented to the House of Commons. This shows once again that ministers and the cabal of individuals on top have an utter disregard for members of this House, and in doing so they show an utter disregard for the people they represent; namely, the Canadian people.

It would be far better for this House to work to ensure that members from across party lines are able to work and represent their constituents effectively by bringing their good ideas to committee in a timely and reasonable fashion.

My question for the member deals with leadership. He illustrated the problem of the lack of accountability on fissile materials around the world. Would my hon. colleague support an international meeting to deal with the disclosure of information on fissionable materials? Countries from around the world could come to one place to discuss and debate, to put forth a process whereby all countries would disclose what fissionable materials they have and the condition of those fissionable materials. Then a system of accounting could be put in place so we would all know where this weapons grade nuclear material is located.

[Chuck Strahl, Reform, Fraser Valley, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I thank the hon. member for both his comment and his question.

His comment is well taken. Because of the importance of the bill, in my own way I was smacking the government's hand a little. However, he spelled out pretty clearly and bluntly that the government faces the danger of making committee work just busy work. That is, as soon as we start to get into the nitty-gritty our work is either trumped by the government or discarded.

We have seen some moves in committees over the last week or so where chairmen who have confronted and challenged the government have been moved aside. It is very unfortunate and very de-motivating for people who come here thinking that their opinion is going to count to find out that instead they should just take a number and wait to be told what to do.

Time and again this has happened with our peacekeeping efforts. We often read about a situation in the papers on the weekend. Then we come here on Monday and hear the minister ask parliament to endorse the position he has already taken, which is to send troops overseas, into harm's way. Those of us on this side of the House, and I think many on the government side too, might have liked to have a debate before the minister signed on the dotted line. I might have liked to have expressed my views. I would have listened to the arguments. We should have true debates instead of set speeches that basically spell out what is going to be done anyway and tough toenails.

That would democratize foreign policy especially. Foreign policy deals not just with Canadians, but with our international relations. We have a right to enter that debate and we have an obligation to our constituents to show that we have an interest. Those members of parliament who say they are only interested in what happens in their own constituencies could be shown for the parochial bunch they are. Let us flush them out. Let us make them treat foreign affairs with the importance it should have.

The second issue concerns whether there should be an international protocol of some sort to track fissionable material. The member pointed out a very huge problem. We have spent hundreds of millions of dollars in Canada alone trying to figure out what to do with our own nuclear waste and we still do not know what we are supposed to do with it. We still do not have a plan. We still keep it in the swimming pool and hope that nobody dives in the deep end. Even in Canada, which has some of the highest standards, we do not have a protocol. We can certainly track it, but we do not know what to do with it.

Take that and expand it to other countries in the world that do not have the resources to even handle it properly. We need a method to track it and to help those countries that cannot deal with it to deal with it in some way that best mitigates the problem. I certainly support that initiative.

[Charles Caccia, Liberal, Davenport, ON]

Mr. Speaker, in the 20 minutes available to me, there are a few points I will be trying to make.

A number of points can be made in connection with this bill. I will try to touch upon them very briefly in order to finish before question period.

It is obviously an important policy that we are discussing today which has a very fine historical record. We are debating today what was initiated by Mr. Pearson, even before he became the Prime Minister of Canada, and that policy was continued by successive prime ministers, particularly Prime Minister Trudeau, in order to establish the fact that Canada was one of the few nations in the world which voluntarily renounced the use of nuclear power for military purposes.

In other words, there is a tradition of which all parliamentarians can be proud because we have been in the forefront of this policy making process and we continue to be.

It has been established in so many ways and in so many debates, in widespread forums and throughout public opinion, that no nuclear nation has the right nor the justification to use nuclear weapons. The pictures of Hiroshima and Nagasaki are very clear in the memories not only of those who lived through that experience, but also of subsequent generations.

There is definitely a will to ensure—and I suppose this is at the root of this treaty—that any measure of that kind will never be adopted again and cause such terrible agony and atrocities on human beings, no matter who is involved.

In connection with this treaty, it must also be said that whenever major nations have conducted nuclear tests they have turned out to be public relations disasters. I can only refresh everyone's memory to the last test conducted by France in the Pacific which clearly provoked and generated a very intensive counter-complaint on the part of public opinion, not only in Europe but in every continent, aimed at dissuading the Government of France of the day from conducting such a test. The same can be said of China, a country that is still conducting tests and which should be discouraged from doing so.

Public opinion certainly does not look kindly on conducting tests of a nuclear nature.

Whenever attempts are made by nations to justify the use of nuclear weapons, their rationale has the weight of zero. There is no rationale and no justification in the light of the evolution of the human culture and of mankind to justify the utilization of nuclear weapons any longer. I am sure it is the intent of this treaty and the hope of the totality of public opinion the world over to consider that any form of nuclear weapon use has come to a conclusion and that there will never again be any attempt to use them.

In that sense, we are glad to have the opportunity in this parliament to endorse Canada's signing and ratifying of this treaty because it gives us an opportunity to express these sentiments.

The next point that one would inevitably like to make is to call on the non-signatories—and there are 43 of those nations—and urge them to do so. From Afghanistan to Zimbabwe there are some minor and middle powers that have not yet seen fit to do so.

I am referring to the Bahamas, Barbados, Belize, Bhutan, Botswana, Cameroon, Central African Republic, Cuba, Dominica, Eritrea, Gambia, Guatemala, Guyana, India, Iraq, Kiribati, North Korea, Lebanon, Libyan Arab Jamahiriya, Macedonia, Mauritius, Nauru, Nigeria, Niue, Oman, Pakistan, Palau, Rwanda, Saint Kitts and Nevis, Saint Vincent and the Grenadines, Saudi Arabia, Sierra Leone, Singapore, Somalia, Sudan, Syrian Arab Republic, Tanzania, Tonga, Trinidad and Tobago, Tuvalu, Zimbabwe and Yugoslavia.

Most of these nations are represented here in Ottawa by embassies or high commissions. Their representatives ought to be called upon by the Government of Canada and urged to do their duty to sign this nuclear test ban treaty without delay. Make the pressure of public opinion felt by them in their desire to be civilized members of the world community.

The next point has to do with the issue of nuclear liability. Our country is due to revisit this issue and to debate the nuclear liability limits we have. We have to determine new thresholds and establish a new approach. This is an overdue piece of legislation which requires parliamentary attention in the interests of the Canadian public.

The next point has to do with the question of Canadian industry notification which is outlined in a briefing note I have here. The legislation we intend to pass will request Canadian industry to report large chemical explosions which could be confused with nuclear explosions. There is a qualifier in this request, namely if possible, prior notification.

I would suggest that prior notification if possible be deleted and notification be made mandatory because if there is good will, there is a way of getting notification without any qualifier to that particular process. It is a good measure and I am sure Canadian industry will want to collaborate. I am referring to those instances when 300 tonnes or more of TNT equivalent material will be used. This idea of prior notification is highly desirable.

The issue of nuclear waste has been raised and we are all painfully aware of the issue. It is one that has been posing a major problem not only to Canada but also to the United States and other jurisdictions where the disposition of nuclear waste is still an unresolved issue. In other words we do not know where to safely put the waste that is generated through nuclear material utilization.

This very important environmental issue also has economic implications. This issue has to be examined whenever we intend to amplify the future use of nuclear power for non-military purposes because the question of waste management and waste disposal has not yet been resolved. It is one that is being tackled at least in low level radiation waste material in southern Ontario by an initiative of the current Minister of the Environment for which we congratulate her. This needs to be expanded of course to other material as well.

I hope that this quick review of items relating to this treaty is helpful. I congratulate the Minister of Foreign Affairs and the government for this very fine initiative.

[Svend Robinson, NDP, Burnaby—Douglas, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I would like to thank the member for his speech and for his longstanding personal commitment in this area.

I would like to ask the member a specific question with respect to the upcoming vote before the United Nations General Assembly on a resolution which will be proposing multilateral negotiations leading to an early conclusion of a nuclear weapons convention.

The member will recall that South African President Nelson Mandela in his very eloquent speech before the general assembly last month urged that all nations, including Canada, join with the new agenda coalition in supporting this resolution. Last year Canada voted against this resolution.

I want to ask the member whether he does not agree that it is important that Canada send out a strong signal of its support for the new agenda coalition by voting for and indeed by co-sponsoring this important resolution at this session of the United Nations General Assembly.

[Charles Caccia, Liberal, Davenport, ON]

Mr. Speaker, whether Canada would co-sponsor this resolution is a moot question and probably it is too late for that. I imagine that the resolution has travelled sufficiently ahead to not require Canada's involvement. However, it is certainly a measure which I am sure the Minister of Foreign Affairs looks at favourably and that we should be moving on. Maybe there is a certain hesitance for reasons I do not know, but in principle it seems to me to be a very desirable initiative and worthy of support.

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS]

Mr. Speaker, I first of all wish to commend the member for Davenport for his eloquent speech. I also commend him for the hard work he has done as chair of the environment committee and his long commitment to the environment.

My question is a historical one. In the last parliament the Liberal government changed the environmental laws to allow China to purchase nuclear reactors. Canada gave China $1.5 billion in loans to do that. Just recently we have made some agreements with Turkey. It is quite obvious that the Government of Canada historically and today has a very poor track record when it comes to nuclear conversations of any kind.

Does the member for Davenport agree with the government's decision to circumvent or change environment laws in order to pursue its nuclear policies?

[Charles Caccia, Liberal, Davenport, ON]

Mr. Speaker, the hon. member knows very well my views on this subject and I do not see the necessity of repeating them in this chamber.

[David Price, Progressive Conservative, Compton—Stanstead, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the hon. member for Davenport, but while on my feet I would like to reply to the question of the member for Burnaby—Douglas on de-alerting. I probably represented my party's views rather authoritatively since we are still considering this component.

My question for the member for Davenport is if we could list in detail what will face us within the next 50 years, what would his reaction be to total disarmament rather than just arms control, which is what we are really doing now?

[Charles Caccia, Liberal, Davenport, ON]

Mr. Speaker, it seems to me that the hon. member is asking a hypothetical question. Therefore it is one which we have to treat as such.

Of course the ideal of total disarmament is one we all would want to strive for. But we also know that this is not a reality in the context of present day relations and conflicts in many areas around the globe.

I would imagine that 50 years from now we will be talking of security more in environmental terms than in military terms. I would imagine that in 50 years the concept of security will be quite different from the one of today. I would imagine that the emphasis on arms will decline and perhaps there will be much more emphasis on access to drinking water for instance.

I would imagine that with the doubling of the global population from the present five billion possibly to ten billion, the pressure on worldwide natural resources, and by that I mean fisheries, forestry, water and the like, will be enormous. We will have a completely different security agenda from what we have today.

Until then, I think we have to be realistic and know also that we have a role to play in peacekeeping as it is shaping up in the Balkans and in other parts of the world. For some time to come, arms will be needed sometimes in order to make peace.

[Bill Blaikie, NDP, Winnipeg—Transcona, MB]

Mr. Speaker, I too would like to ask the member for Davenport a question. I would first preface my remarks like a great many others with a tribute to the work he has done over the years on the environment, although I must say I have found him to be a bit ambiguous on the nuclear question from time to time.

With respect to the goal he just mentioned, the complete abolition of nuclear weapons, or total disarmament as he referred to it, does he not think the time has come for Canada as a member of NATO to show leadership in that body? That is where we find a great many members of the existing nuclear club, but not all of them.

Does he not think there is a role there for Canada to say to those in the nuclear club that they can no longer expect to maintain their monopoly as it were on nuclear weapons and at the same time ask the rest of the world to desist from the production and deployment of nuclear weapons? Is there a role here for NATO and the nuclear club in showing some leadership and is Canada uniquely positioned to show leadership in that way?

[Charles Caccia, Liberal, Davenport, ON]

Mr. Speaker, regarding the question of being ambiguous, the advantage of being a Liberal over being an NDPer is that instead of looking at the world in black and white, we can also detect a number of shades of grey. Therefore sometimes our message is more complex and less simplistic than the message from the NDP.

That is the reason we convince more Canadians to elect us to conduct the business of government than the NDP has so far. There is something about ambiguity that can be attributed to the capacity of seeing more shades of colours than just black and white.

On the second point, NATO, this is a subject of continuous discussion and debate. I do not feel qualified enough to give an adequate reply.

[The Speaker]

I note that there are still a couple of minutes left in the questions and comments. As we are approaching 2 p.m., I wonder if I might let that go until after question period and we will go to Statements by Members now.

Earl Goforth

[Bryon Wilfert, Liberal, Oak Ridges, ON]

Mr. Speaker, it is with great pleasure that I rise in the House today to salute Mr. Earl Goforth, a volunteer in the Whitchurch-Stouffville Museum in my riding.

Mr. Goforth received the Ontario Heritage Foundation's Heritage Community Recognition certificate in recognition of his service. For over 18 years, he has shared his knowledge of tools and agricultural implements with visitors to the museum. The museum itself opened in 1971 in the Bogarttown School which was built in 1857.

Mr. Goforth's involvement and service in the museum has enhanced its educational and entertainment value not only for visitors, but also for the staff and volunteers.

I was pleased to honour someone who helps us understand our local history, Mr. Goforth.

Government Spending

[Dave Chatters, Reform, Athabasca, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I rise in this House today to express my disgust over this government's continued mismanagement of Canadian tax dollars.

While ministers of this government spend their time on vendetta politics, Canadians are left to suffer. This government has wasted $500 million cancelling the EH-101 helicopters that are obviously desperately needed. There was $260 million wasted on Pearson airport and $3.4 million wasted on Airbus. And just this summer $20 million was wasted on compensating Ethyl Corporation for banning MMT without just cause or sound evidence. This waste alone totals $765.4 million. If the government had stopped playing politics it could have used this revenue to compensate every hepatitis C victim.

I demand the government to show Canadians the same courtesy given to Ethyl, apologize to Canadians for mishandling these events and stop wasting taxpayer dollars.

Mary Ann Shadd

[Jerry Pickard, Liberal, Kent—Essex, ON]

Mr. Speaker, October 1998 marks the seventh year that Canada will celebrate Women's History Month in recognition of women who have played vital roles in our heritage.

I wish to recognize the life achievements of the late Mary Ann Shadd who at one time resided in Chatham—Kent in my riding. Mary Ann Shadd, a noted author, educator, journalist, publisher and lawyer, was truly a pioneer in her time. After emigrating to Canada in 1851 she earned the distinction of being the first black female newspaper editor in North America. In an era where few women were politically aware, Mrs. Shadd was an advocate for abolitionists and a voice for equal rights.

Mary Ann Shadd serves as a role model for women young and old across the country. Her legacy instils a sense of pride in our history and in our origins. It is with honour that I rise to celebrate with Canadians the difference women have made, are making today and will make in the future.