Debates of Feb. 9th, 1998

Canadian Wheat Board Act

[Denis Coderre, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I was merely pointing out what I have heard in the last four Reform speeches. One thing that is certain, I think that the former producer of—

The “Rocky Horror Picture Show” might have a sequel after all. We have heard about that place because it is a horror show.

Some people here have just told me that, as a Quebec MP, I have no right to talk about wheat. Some people here have just told me that, since I am from Quebec, I have no right to take a position on a bill. Some people from the Reform tell me that, since I am from Quebec, I have no right to give proper representation to my constituents, who are involved through their taxes in the Canadian Wheat Board, to the tune of $5 or $6 billion. Does this mean that, from now on, when fish are being discussed, the Saskatchewan Reform gang will not be allowed to speak? Really now. That's pathetic.

Once again, this pack of dinosaurs are showing us how they try to create division, to play on division. We have just been given a definition of what the Western bloc is. That gang is no better than the Bloc Quebecois. Good for nothing but creating a diversion.

Now to get down to business. The people of Bourassa understand the significance of Bill C-4. They have understood the importance of democracy. They have understood the significance of transparency. They have understood the significance of this bill because we are taking a position on behalf of the agricultural producers.

One thing that is certain, looking at this board, 10 of the 15 directors are elected by producers, which means this is good, extraordinary. For once we had something of direct assistance to producers, but the Reform Party changes its mind once again and starts talking a lot of nonsense, that the government will control the Board.

Not only are there only five appointments, but the board can vote on the president's remuneration and even recommend his removal. Is that not democracy with a capital D ?

Now they are back whining again. And because they have no idea what to say, they have produced a list of appointments. I am glad that was the gang appointed, those people have qualifications. No one from the Reform Party was on the list because none of them has any qualification.

Transparency and democracy are essential, as is representativeness. Through this bill we have showed that for once we have taken a stand for farmers and the members opposite should be applauding us. There should not even be any talk of an amendment. Bill C-4 should receive unanimous approval.

We decided to take a stand for farmers. They decided to take a stand for certain obscure lobbies I have never heard of. One thing is certain, and that is that, when it is known how transparent this board will be, as the member for Bourassa I am extremely proud and happy to be a member of this government and I have no hesitation in rising to vote in favour of this bill. Instead of hurling insults, and constantly tarnishing the reputations of people who were duly appointed and whose qualifications will be of extraordinary benefit to the Canadian people, the members opposite should be thrilled with Bill C-4.

When they do not have much to say, they hurl insults. One thing is certain and that is that, after members have examined Bill C-4 point by point, they should unanimously rise in their places and applaud the minister and the government for the stand they have taken.

I have taken a stand on behalf of producers. They have taken a stand on behalf of the lobbies. Ladies and gentlemen listening today, it is truly pathetic. The record has been set straight. Instead of trotting out your litanies again, I hope you are going to take a stand for farmers. Enough of your constant refrain that, because we come from the east, we are unable to represent you. If I had to rise in my place every time I thought you were unable to represent us, you would not be on your feet very often.

[Dave Chatters, Reform, Athabasca, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to rise again in the debate on Bill C-4 as it has some relevance to my family and me. I am a third generation grain farmer. My family has held a Canadian Wheat Board permit since the very inception of the Canadian Wheat Board. That gives me some legitimacy and some relevancy in this debate, contrary to the member who just spoke. He probably does not know a bushel of wheat from a gallon of maple syrup.

It is not a matter of whether one member or another might be able to rise to speak. Any member of the House can rise to speak on any issue he likes. It is a matter of legitimacy when we speak. I do not understand these members.

The only thing the Group No. 4 amendments referred to was the election of wheat board officers.

[The Deputy Speaker]

The hon. member for Bourassa on a point of order.

[Denis Coderre, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I will never allow my legitimacy to be called into question. I was duly elected. My constituents elected me by over 9,000 votes and I will not stand for—

[The Deputy Speaker]

Order, please. I listened carefully to the words of the hon. member for Athabasca and he said nothing about the hon. member's legitimacy. Resuming debate.

[Dave Chatters, Reform, Athabasca, AB]

Mr. Speaker, the issue we are debating in Group No. 4 is election versus appointment of officers of the Canadian Wheat Board. I wish members opposite would take the debate a little more seriously, stand in their places and explain to me, to my constituents and to other western farmers why they are being denied exactly what farmers in Ontario currently have. We are asking for the same thing but we are being told it is not good for us. It is good for them but they are not breaking down the door to give the Canadian Wheat Board jurisdiction in Ontario.

We have a valid concern and a valid point to make on behalf of producers. While maybe some of the debate is repetitive or may wander from the election of wheat board officers, the emotions surrounding the issue increase in my riding every day.

I was home on the weekend. I just arrived back in Ottawa this afternoon. On Saturday afternoon a farmer in my riding contacted me. He is a second generation grain producer in the mid-northern part of my riding that has farmed all his life. The Farm Credit Corporation, an agency of the federal government, has given him 60 days to vacate his farm. He has not been able to put a crop in the ground for two years. It has been so wet he has not been able to get into his fields. It draws my emotions out when I hear people joking, laughing and making sport of the issue and issues surrounding farming.

On the airplane on my way back to Ottawa I was reading a story in the paper about a Manitoba farmer, a constituent of a colleague of mine, who was jailed for 60 days, given a $2,500 fine and had his $50,000 grain truck seized. Almost exactly the same day this took place, two men who gang raped a woman in B.C. were given community service. The farmer for selling $500 worth of grain was put in leg shackles, strip searched and humiliated day after day. We cannot help but get emotional and start throwing these things back and forth.

As I said, I challenge members on the other side to take the matter seriously. Let us stand and talk about why Canadian farmers cannot have an elected board in control of the wheat board and cannot have the wheat board working for farmers, elected by farmers and responsible to farmers.

There must be some transparency in the board. It certainly is not elected. The minister insists for whatever reason—and I do not know what it would be—on maintaining control over the board. Is it any wonder farmers in western Canada are suspicious and do not trust the board?

Farmers in my riding want to support the Canadian Wheat Board. They believe in the Canadian Wheat Board and what it can do for farmers. However, because of its historic injustices, they want control of the board. They want to elect the people who control the board. They do not want the minister and the government to control the board, simply because the courts said that the board was not responsible to farmers. A situation where a farmer has to sell his grain to the Canadian Wheat Board at the same time as he could get double the price for his grain by trucking it just a few miles across the border seems to be an injustice to farmers.

We have farmers in tears because they are losing the family farm after two generations. They are being deprived of up to $3 a bushel for their grain because the Canadian Wheat Board will not let them market it. It bothers me when I see the whole issue being made into a joke and being bantered back and forth. It is an extremely serious issue in my part of the country. I do not think the demands of my constituents, the Reform Party and my colleagues are anything more than reasonable and normal under the circumstances.

I urge members opposite to take them seriously, debate the matter seriously and give us some real reason they will not accept the number of amendments we are putting forward to make the changes. They will give farmers confidence and faith in the Canadian Wheat Board and make them willing to use it as a marketing tool for their grain.

If we keep going in the direction we are going and if the government insists on maintaining the position it is maintaining, the Canadian Wheat Board will be destroyed.

Already in my part of the world farmers are turning to other alternatives. They are looking at non-wheat board crops. They are looking at local markets in livestock production. They are turning away from the Canadian Wheat Board because the government refuses to budge. It refuses to change its position on the Canadian Wheat Board in any way.

The government is being unreasonable. It makes me quite sad to see that response. With that I will close my remarks.

[Paul Bonwick, Liberal, Simcoe—Grey, ON]

Mr. Speaker, perhaps my Reform colleagues could take some time out and actually read the bill. It might clear up some of their inconsistencies and untruths.

I look across the floor and see the Bloc in sheep's clothing. Perhaps the leader of the Reform Party has been taking some lessons from Mr. Bouchard. Certainly he and members of his party have been suggesting regionalism. It is not a country as a whole. Members of Parliament on this side of the House should not be able to speak to a bill which they guaranteed to the tune of $6 billion to $7 billion a year. It is simply that they get to speak to it and we sit here and be quiet.

Today is not my House duty. I flew in a day early for no other reason than to speak to the bill because it is important to all Canadians, not just Reformers.

Canadians, particularly those from Alberta, Manitoba and Saskatchewan, see through the guise that the Reformers are showing here. They are not representing them in the true spirit of Canada.

I will go through a few points to try to clear up some of the inaccuracies and untruths the Reform has said this afternoon. Apparently, according to Reform members, there would be absolutely no representation whatsoever on the fisheries board. According to their view they have absolutely no right to speak to fisheries officials. That is something this party will not buy into.

I will touch on a couple of questions that should be answered at this point. Will the Canadian Wheat Board become more accountable to farmers? That is a simple question. The answer is yes. For the first time in history the Canadian Wheat Board will be run by the board of directors. There will be 15 directors in total, 10 of whom will be elected by producers. The government is only able to appoint five members. For the $5 billion or $6 billion guarantee that every man, woman and child in the country is offering they should have some input into the wheat board.

Will directors have real power? Certainly they will. They have the power to set the salary for the CEO. There will have to be consultation with the minister before the CEO is appointed. The board of directors has true authority in the matter.

Is the CWB subject to a full audit like private sector companies? I have heard Reformers ramble on and on over the past several days regarding their concern about the auditor general not being able to audit the books of the Canadian Wheat Board. On different days I heard about the concern over more government regulations and more government involvement and all the same topics. They continue to contravene themselves on these matters.

The wheat board will be fully audited. The wheat board has a duly appointed external auditor chosen from the private sector. It is a well respected auditing firm. It is well known throughout Canada and North America.

Another question to which members across the floor might like an answer to bring home to their constituents is whether it is necessary for the government to appoint some of the directors and the president. Of course it is and there are two reasons for this. First of all, Canadian taxpayers backed the CWB with financial guarantees totalling $6 billion, covering not only the initial payments but credit sales as well.

[Jay Hill, Reform, Prince George—Peace River, BC]

Read the bill.

[Paul Bonwick, Liberal, Simcoe—Grey, ON]

Would it not be interesting for Reform members to go home and tell them that the government no longer backs their loans and therefore they will not get paid? Think of the uncertainty that would create in the marketplace.

[Jay Hill, Reform, Prince George—Peace River, BC]

Read the bill.

[Paul Bonwick, Liberal, Simcoe—Grey, ON]

I had the luxury of sitting in on the agriculture committee to hear all the witnesses. Obviously having paid attention unlike some of my colleagues across the way, I have some points which I believe would be of interest to them, if they would quit laughing and heckling and spend a few moments learning.

Can the CWB directors effectively demonstrate their disapproval of the president? It is a simple question and farmers have the right to know the answer. Yes, they can.

The government can appoint the president, but only after consultation. Once the president is appointed, the directors have the power to review his performance and recommend dismissal. They also have the power to assess his salary. They can set his salary at $1 if they wish to do so.

It is obvious that the board will have complete control over the wheat board as a whole, with limited intervention of the minister.

I heard comments earlier about there being four speakers from the Reform Party who had spoken in a row on this bill, yet they criticize us for affording them the opportunity to speak one after the other on this important issue. We are allowing them the opportunity to bring forward legitimate concerns regarding this wheat bill, but all they seem to be doing is driving a wedge into the country. All they want to do is talk about their little piece of the pie and suggest that we should not have any involvement—

[The Deputy Speaker]

Order, please. The hon. member for Saskatoon—Humboldt on a point of order.

[Jim Pankiw, Reform, Saskatoon—Humboldt, SK]

Mr. Speaker, the hon. member said that he was affording us the privilege of speaking one after the other to this bill, but in fact—

[The Deputy Speaker]

I do not think he said that. I think he said that members were being critical of the fact that they were being afforded this privilege, unless I misheard him. In any event, it is not a point of order.

I know the hon. member may disagree with what the hon. member has said. There seems to be some disagreement about this bill. However, that is a matter for debate, with all due respect, and not a point of order.

[Paul Bonwick, Liberal, Simcoe—Grey, ON]

Mr. Speaker, this is not indifferent to some of the committee work. They only hear selective things that they want to hear.

What I would ask the grain producers in western Canada to realize is that this is a good bill. We heard from hundreds of witnesses. We heard from witnesses who represented thousands of people.

This is a good bill for Canada. At long last the wheat board will be passed back and put in the hands of the producers.

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh.

[Paul Bonwick, Liberal, Simcoe—Grey, ON]

If the Reform members will for once sit, listen and read through the information, they might get some clear information, rather than trying to split this country up by saying that members from Quebec should not be talking to it, that members from Ontario should not be talking to it and that members from the maritimes should not be talking to it. It is guaranteed in the country of Canada. We all have a right as parliamentarians to speak to this bill.

[John Harvard, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of Agriculture and Agri-Food]

Mr. Speaker, earlier the member who represents part of the Peace River area said that this was a serious matter and I could not agree more. I wish that members of the Reform Party would listen to their own advice. I do not think they are treating this matter very seriously. I believe they are much more interested in listening to themselves, much more interested in grandstanding and much more interested in trying to score some cheap political points.

I come from one of the prairie provinces. I feel that I have to apologize to all members in this House who do not live on the prairies because what the Reform Party has said over and over again in this debate is that if you do not reside on the prairies, you have no right to speak to this bill, that you have lost your franchise, that you do not enjoy full citizenship in this country.

I can say that the last time I checked, all 301 members of this House enjoy full citizenship when they come into this House. They can speak to any matter, regardless of where they live, regardless of which riding they represent. I say to every member—

[Garry Breitkreuz, Reform, Yorkton—Melville, SK]

Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order. Let the record show that no Reform member has done what this person says. We have not said that these people cannot speak.

[The Deputy Speaker]

I think the hon. member knows that this is a debate and members are free to get up and make their own interpretation of what other members have said without raising a point of order in the House. I think in the circumstances perhaps we could hear the hon. member. I may say that it is getting difficult to hear what the hon. member is saying and I would appeal for a little order while the parliamentary secretary concludes his remarks.

[John Harvard, Liberal, Charleswood—Assiniboine, MB]

Mr. Speaker, I think that Canadians who have been listening to the debate this afternoon will have heard it very, very clearly from the Reform Party, that unless you are a member of the House of Commons from the prairie provinces, you have no right to speak in this debate.

All I can say to the members of the Reform Party is shame on you. It is beneath your party to even entertain such a terrible thought as that. I say shame on you. I am sorry, Mr. Speaker. I will address my remarks through you.

The member for Elk Island accused members on the government side of acting as, I think he used the words trained seals. He admonished us to stand on our principles. Again, I would like the Reform Party to listen to its own advice that it has given so freely to us.

I have listened to members of the Reform Party on this issue, and all we hear is the same old ideological line that you get from the Reform Party on the wheat board bill. It is the same old right wing stuff we have been hearing for years and years. Would it not be nice if just once we could hear a refreshing thought, a new thought, something a little different from the Reform Party when it comes to C-4. But no, Reform members are the trained seals. They are the ones who stick to one particular line over and over again.

There is one more thing. Members of the Reform Party love to pretend that they are the voice of the west when it comes to the issue of C-4. I would concede that members of the Reform Party do speak for some farmers, and I emphasize the word some, but they do not speak for all prairie farmers.

It is very interesting that in all this debate about the pros and cons of C-4, the Reform Party never talks about a popular survey that was taken among farmers. They never refer to an Angus Reid poll or a Gallup poll or any other reputable poll. When it comes to support for the wheat board, we will never hear anything from the Reform members because they know and we all know that the wheat board enjoys majority support on the prairies.

[Lee Morrison, Reform, Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK]

Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order. This guy is supposed to be a parliamentary secretary. Surely he must have some idea of what is in the bill. I wish he would speak to that.

[The Deputy Speaker]

The hon. parliamentary secretary is debating the points that have been raised in debate during the course of the day. I know that, as in the case of every hon. member, he will ultimately turn his attention to the points in the bill and make his remarks appear relevant to the bill.

[John Harvard, Liberal, Charleswood—Assiniboine, MB]

Mr. Speaker, members of the Reform Party would like us to believe that a majority of farmers on the prairies are against the wheat board, that they do not want anything to do with the wheat board.

If memory serves me correctly, not too long ago there was a plebiscite on the prairies having to do with barley. If there ever was an opportunity for farmers on the prairies to embarrass the government, to support the Reform Party and to show that they wanted nothing to do with the wheat board, all the farmers had to do was to vote against the board. In effect they could say “We do not want barley attached to the board any more”.

What were the results? Notice that the Reform Party in all its speeches will never say anything about the plebiscite, never a word. I wonder why. Is it possibly because two-thirds of prairie farmers showed in that plebiscite that they support the wheat board? Two-thirds of farmers said “We want our barley sold through the Canadian Wheat Board”. That was the fact but we will never hear that from the Reform Party.

The Reform members would never want too many facts to get in the way of their presentations because facts will kill them every time. They also say “We are not against the wheat board. All we want is the right to have dual marketing. We can have the wheat board but we would also like to sell our grain to other grain companies”. Is that not nice. If we were to adopt the Reform Party proposal, imagine how long the wheat board would last. We have to remember that the wheat board is in partnership with the federal government. Over $6 billion of its financing is underwritten by the federal government. That is something no other grain company has.

Imagine in a dual marketing situation if we had one agency, one company called the Canadian Wheat Board enjoying the support of all the taxpayers in the country, and all these other companies on the other side not having that privilege or honour of the support of the federal treasury. How long would that situation last? Two or three minutes. I suspect we would be in the courts just like that. A situation where one particular company is favoured and not the others would be untenable.

[Lee Morrison, Reform, Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK]

Have you ever been on a farm?