Debates of Feb. 9th, 1998

Canadian Wheat Board Act

[Rose-Marie Ur, Liberal, Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON]

Mr. Speaker and hon. members of the House of Commons, I am pleased to have the opportunity to speak on this group of motions with respect to Bill C-4.

Even though I am not a western producer or a member of Parliament from western Canada, I am a producer from Ontario. I did have the privilege of travelling with the committee when we had hearings out west regarding the Canadian Wheat Board.

The motion in this group proposes a number of alternatives with respect to the governance of the Canadian Wheat Board. Under Bill C-4, a 15 member board of directors would be created with 10 directors elected by the producers, four directors appointed by the governor in council and the president and CEO appointed by the governor in council. The governor in council would appoint the president based on the minister's recommendation after the minister consulted with the rest of the board of directors.

The intention of this legislation is to put the decision making power into the hands of the producers and I certainly attest to that. However, the federal government does have substantial interests at stake.

It will continue to provide the Canadian Wheat Board with substantial financial guarantees. That is taxpayers' money. It will guarantee the initial payments. It will guarantee sales made under the credit grain sales program. It will continue to guarantee the Canadian Wheat Board's $5 billion to $6 billion in day to day borrowings.

The Canadian Wheat Board will also continue to perform public policy functions such as issuing export licences. For this reason the government must maintain a direct role by appointing the president as well as a minority of members of the board of directors.

Let me emphasize that the government realizes the importance of a CWB which is accountable to the producers.

Bill C-4 already specifies that the board of directors with a two-thirds majority elected by farmers would set the remuneration of the president. The legislation also makes it clear that the minister cannot appoint a president without first consulting with the board. The board will be able to review the president's performance and recommend his or her dismissal if board members feel that performance is inadequate.

Bill C-4 reserves the final decision concerning dismissal of the president for the governor in council. However it is clear that the board of directors would have several means for making its displeasure known and it is difficult to see how a president could continue in office without the support of the board.

In short, the government's power to appoint and dismiss does not take away the board's influence over the CEO.

There is another reason for having the government make some appointments to the board. It is in keeping with good corporate practice that some outside directors should have corporate experience in areas such as management, finance and marketing. This can be accomplished by having the governor in council appoint a minority of the directors. It is important to realize that all directors whether elected or appointed have equal status and the same responsibilities and duties.

One can understand the desire to have candidate expenditure limits on elections for the board of directors and to set out more specifics in regard to the voting rules. However these are items which would more properly be handled through the regulations, not legislation. Enshrining these points in legislation would mean that the issue would come back to Parliament each time a modification was required, such as increasing candidate expenditure limits. Regulations can be updated and changed to meet current circumstances with much greater ease.

At this time I would like to bring to the attention of the House a few questions which have been brought constantly to the attention of the committee, whether when the committee was sitting in Ottawa or whether when the committee was travelling out west.

One of the questions that was most frequently asked was: Will the Canadian Wheat Board become more accountable to farmers? The answer is yes. For the first time in history the Canadian Wheat Board will be run by a board of directors. There will be 15 directors in total.

The farmers will take control over their marketing agency by directly electing 10 of their directors, a two-thirds majority. The elected directors will reflect the views of farmers and Canadian Wheat Board decision making will be where it should be. They will be expected to demonstrate accountability to producers. Ultimately if the producers are not satisfied with what the Canadian Wheat Board is doing, they can change the directors in subsequent elections.

Another question which was frequently posed was: Will the directors have complete access to all Canadian Wheat Board information? Here again the answer is yes. All directors will be entitled to complete disclosure of all Canadian Wheat Board facts and figures, including but not limited to fully audited financial statements. They will be able to examine the prices at which grain is sold, the price premiums achieved, all operating costs and whether the Canadian Wheat Board is running efficiently.

With their full knowledge of the Canadian Wheat Board and its global competition, the directors would be in the best position to assess information that should be made public or that for commercial reasons should remain confidential.

Bill C-4 would empower farmers with more say in future decisions over their marketing system and provide a mechanism through which producers can implement many different marketing innovations. That is important to note. I repeat that it would empower farmers with more say in future decisions over their marketing system and provide the farmers, not bureaucrats, with a mechanism through which producers can implement many different marketing innovations.

Unfortunately, the amendments in this group will not contribute to this objective and therefore cannot receive the government's support.

[Roy H. Bailey, Reform, Souris—Moose Mountain, SK]

Mr. Speaker, I am very proud to enter this debate as we deal with this group of amendments to Bill C-4.

While I was home during the Christmas break, I deliberately went to groups that were previously very much in favour of the Canadian Wheat Board both in the past and to some extent up to the present. I was amazed at the differences even among those who had been most loyal to the concept of the wheat board and what is growing on the prairies, and the reason they would like to see the very amendments the Reform Party is moving to Bill C-4.

There is one fundamental thing wrong at the present time when we call this the Canadian Wheat Board. If you take a C and complete the arc, you have an O . To many of the people in western Canada it is not the Canadian Wheat Board, it is the Ottawa wheat board. They look on this wheat board now as being something not within the prairies, not within the area of where they are growing grain, but rather something in far off Ottawa which is controlling the livelihood of the producers on the prairies. Maybe they have a point.

First of all, the legislation to the wheat board is made right here in Ottawa.

During the debate on the two school questions, the one in Quebec and the one in Newfoundland, one of the hon. members opposite asked me what right I had in even speaking on the school bill as it relates to the province of Newfoundland. I would take that question and reverse it as to the decision of this bill.

A former member speaking to the bill said it was likely that this bill would pass. Look at the representation from the areas that produce this bill. Look at the membership in the House of Commons from the people who represent these producers. I come from a totally agricultural area, as does my hon. colleague who has already spoken, as does my hon. colleague who will likely follow me.

These are the people who should be listened to. Instead of that, the Ottawa wheat board was made in Ottawa, was legislated in Ottawa, but any necessary changes should come from the west where the producers are situated.

If this government were listening, which it has not been so far, it would listen to what the members on this side of the House had to say.

The court decisions that have arisen in the last two years have all come down to a final statement, which is extremely dangerous. Not only is the statement dangerous but it has brought a great deal of hatred on the part of the producer. In every court case of a farmer versus the wheat board, the legal representation for the wheat board had always concluded the debate this way. I want members to listen very carefully, because this is pretty well a quote. The wheat board is entirely responsible to the Government of Canada and not the producer. That is what the decision has been.

If they would listen to what we are saying, if they would listen to the other agencies, they would be taking steps in constructing the wheat board bill so that it in fact does listen to the producer and the necessary steps will be taken.

It is the Ottawa wheat board. It is legislated here. The court decisions have said that it is responsible only to the government.

Then we have the board appointments. Again, it is the Ottawa wheat board. The board makes the appointments from here. If the minister in charge of the wheat board is not totally satisfied with them, or even a little dissatisfied, out that minister goes.

Who makes that decision? Again, it is made in Ottawa. It has nothing to do with the producer in any way.

I am saying here that board appointments can be an area that is only increasing the suspicion in western Canada that there is something wrong with this Ottawa controlled wheat board.

Let me give an example. We have a multimillion dollar project being studied in my constituency. It probably takes in 150 producers in an area where a circle can be drawn around in the best growing durum in the world. No place else grows better durum than right there. The better the durum, the better the pasta.

These people want to go in and set up a pasta plant in the same way that there would be a closed co-operative. The producer-owner wants to grow his durum, take it to his plant and put it on to the North American market. The only way that will be viable is if the wheat board gets in gear, gets its thoughts together and says we are coming into a new century. The people in western Canada are not going to be considered to be hewers of wood and drawers of water anymore. The previous wheat board says get everything out of the west. Let us reap the advantages.

That is why in Saskatchewan the canola growers, the rape seed growers and all the other products being produced off-board have an industry right in western Canada to accompany that. They do not like one bit the idea of the inclusion clause which may draw them back into the wheat board and shut down their industry.

I believe this government should take this antiquated bill back to the drawing board. Pull the bill altogether. Take it right off because even those who four months ago supported the wheat board in its entirety no longer support that. It is dead. It is a dead issue.

As long as this wheat board and all its operation does not fall under the long arm of the auditor general, that suspicion is going to continue. It will continue to the point that there is going to be so much disruption, if the government does not pull the bill now, take it back to the drawing board, it will self-destruct by the time we turn the century.

We do not want to destroy grain marketing. This is 1998, not 1943. The west wants to be a producer of some of its own products but cannot be as long as the long arm of the Ottawa wheat board sits in the way.

It is interesting to note that the provincial Government of Saskatchewan, a traditional supporter of this monopoly buying, decided it wanted to get into hog production and then said the barley is under the control of the wheat board. In order to make its hog operations productive, it would have to take that portion off the wheat board. Permission granted. There it is. It would not be a viable operation.

All these things I have referred to are in the entrepreneurial spirit of the young farmers in Saskatchewan and in the other prairie provinces. They hate the thought of going out and doing anything on their own because the wheat board would step in.

There is a court case going on now in Saskatchewan. I want to illustrate this. Here is a group of farmers growing organic grain. All the people of Canada should listen to this. They grow the grain and they want to mill that grain because it has a demand across North America. No, sir. The long arm of the Ottawa wheat board says they can mill it but they will have to pay the penalty at so much money before shipping it out.

This whole thing is antiquated. It is completely out of date. For the sake of a $6 billion plus business, let us pull the bill. Let us go back and ask the producers to take it back to the drawing board and all of Canada will prosper.

If they proceed with this bill, we will have nothing but hardship, court cases and farmers leaving the land, which they most certainly will do.

[Garry Breitkreuz, Reform, Yorkton—Melville, SK]

Mr. Speaker, I do not know if you have had much contact with the farming community or if you know much about agriculture and grain growing, but that is the subject of our debate. If you were to come to Saskatchewan and observe the harvesting of grain you would observe a very large machine called a combine that goes through the fields and does what it says, combines several operations in the harvesting process.

I am going to tell members a little story about this combine and see if members agree that we should have this kind of machine. The combine used for the harvesting of grain has a pick-up on the front of it which gathers in the grain and elevates it to a cylinder that threshes out the grain, and wheat and barley is what we are talking about here. This grain then goes from the cylinder over to the straw walkers and those straw walkers vibrate the little kernels of grain out through the sieves at the bottom and then the grain is elevated up.

If one had one of these combines and in this last stage, instead of taking all these nice kernels of grain and putting them up in a hopper where one could collect them and simply distribute them back on to the field where they came from, would one still keep this combine? Would anyone keep a combine that goes out, gathers the grain and then simply destroys it, in effect, by spreading it all out on the field again? Of course not. One would get rid of this combine immediately because it would not be harvesting the grain.

This is an analogy that relates directly to what the wheat board minister is doing with this issue of the Canadian Wheat Board. I describe this so that all the people of Canada can get an understanding of how ridiculous our situation is here.

This government and this minister for the last four years have gone out into the prairie provinces and gathered wisdom and information on the wheat board just like a combine gathers in the grain. The minister has threshed through it and sifted it. Then, instead of putting it into a good bill, he simply destroys it all and puts a bill before the House that is not acceptable.

This is an example of how useless the process has been of trying to find out what we should do with the Canadian Wheat Board for the last four years.

There have been many good ideas picked up from farmers and these ideas would have really improved the marketing of grain in this country. But they have been destroyed by the government just like that illustration of the combine that simply does all this and destroys the grain by simply spreading it out on the ground where it is no longer available and irretrievable.

I want to tell members this morning something that has happened in the last month in the province of Saskatchewan where I come from. By accident, Bill C-4 which we are debating today has not been rammed through the House. It was intended to be finished and be law before Christmas. However, because there were so many other pressing matters before the House it was delayed.

That gave us the opportunity as members of Parliament to go back to our constituents in January and ask them about Bill C-4 and about amendments that we had been proposing. These amendments come from the farmers. As a member of Parliament I have gone out there and sifted through all the suggestions and put forth amendments to Bill C-4, amendments I was hoping the government would listen to.

The farming community has become very divided on the issue in the last four years because of government inaction. This debate has been before the country for a long time. Many people in the rest of Canada may not realize how important this issue is and how long it has been dragged out.

The weakness of the government has become evident in this issue more than probably most that I have any involvement with. There has been ample opportunity for the government to resolve this but it has done nothing about it. Now that Bill C-4 has been introduced I would like the minister to answer a question. I hope he will show up at some time to do so. Whom is he representing when he introduces this legislation? I hope the minister will come to the House some time and answer whom is he representing when he introduces this legislation.

The Canadian Wheat Board should be there to carry out the wishes of as many grain producers as it possibly can. It is not there to carry out the wishes of the minister or the prime minister, or the bureaucrats at the Canadian Wheat Board office. That is not the purpose of the Canadian Wheat Board. I submit that is not the case. I have very strong reasons for saying that because of the experience of the last month.

What is the point in introducing changes to the Canadian Wheat Board that farmers do not want? That is why I want the minister to come to the House some time and answer. Whom is he representing? What is the point of making changes to the Canadian Wheat Board that most farmers do not support?

What level of dissatisfaction would we need before the minister would withdraw Bill C-4? Would we need 51% of the farmers opposed to it before he would withdraw it, or would the level have to be a little higher? Let us say 66% or two-thirds of farmers. Maybe it would have to be 75% opposed to Bill C-4 before the minister would withdraw it. What level of dissatisfaction would we need? Would it be 80% or does it have to be 100% before the minister would withdraw it?

I am making a major point in the whole issue. I have gone back to the farmers of Saskatchewan. I have asked them what they think about Bill C-4. They have told me in no uncertain terms about it. I went beyond that. I asked them about some amendments that have been proposed. I put forth amendments that can be put into three simple categories. I asked farmers about those amendments, what they thought.

I am telling the minister publicly what the people of Saskatchewan are saying. I have put forth an amendment to change the Canadian Wheat Board from orderly marketing to securing the best financial return for producers. The present aim of the wheat board is out of date. Farmers do not want that. They want the purpose of the wheat board to be that it gets the best financial return for the people it represents. Does that not seem reasonable?

Do you know, Mr. Speaker, the percentage of farmers who support that amendment? It is between 96% and 97%. Let us ponder that for a moment. For the minister to disregard 96% to 97% of producers is a travesty of democracy, of justice or whatever we can think of. I cannot fathom why the minister ploughs ahead when the dissatisfaction level with Bill C-4 is so great.

Does it have to be 51%? Does it have to be 75%? What if it is 96% to 97%? All the people of Canada are listening. Let us do something about an undemocratic institution.

I have a lot more to describe about the meeting I held in Yorkton. It was an non-partisan crowd, a group of 300 farmers who gave direct input as to what I should say in the House. I need the time and will take every available opportunity today to speak to what they have told me.

I challenge the minister at some point to come to the House to say who he is representing. Why is he pushing the bill through the House when there is so little support for it out there? Why does he not listen to the amendments that have been put forward?

It is essential for people to have faith in their government, to see democracy effective and working, and to have a wheat board that is strong for everyone.

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland)]

We are now debating Group No. 4 at report stage, which has to do with the directors and the president. It would not be a bad idea for members who are speaking to be a little more relevant.

[Charlie Penson, Reform, Peace River, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to take up your challenge and talk about the election of directors to the new Canadian Wheat Board that is being proposed by the minister.

The essence of this whole question is about control. It is about control in that the government wants to retain the ability to appoint five directors, one-third of the directors of the Canadian Wheat Board. It is about control in that the minister responsible for the Canadian Wheat Board wants to appoint the chief executive officer.

What this debate is about in my constituency, and I believe all of western Canada, is a matter of choice. The debate is about choice but the minister is not listening.

We just heard my colleague from Yorkton—Melville talk about how little support there is for the changes proposed by Bill C-4. This is not the first time the bill has been before parliament. It died as Bill C-72 in the last parliament when the election was called. There was no support for it at that time. The minister has brought it back and has made it even worse. He wants to put new crops under the Canadian Wheat Board.

How will five directors appointed by government have any impact in making changes when we will still have a corporation that is a state enterprise and a monopoly? If that is the best the government can do, it is a total failure. It is a disservice to those people who want to use the Canadian Wheat Board to pool their product and accept an average price.

A percentage of farmers in western Canada want to do exactly that. However a lot of farmers in western Canada do not want to use the Canadian Wheat Board. They want a choice in how they market their grain. That choice is not available. In fact the section of the act which talks about to whom the Canadian Wheat Board is responsible is not dealt with. It says that it is responsible to government, not to producers.

My colleague from Yorkton—Melville asked that a preamble be included which indicates that the objective of the Canadian Wheat Board should be to achieve the maximum benefits for producers, but the government is not listening to that.

At the very time the bill is before parliament the minister responsible for the Canadian Wheat Board knows that these amendments have not been dealt with. We were in the process of debating some 40 motions when we were interrupted during the Christmas break. At this very time the minister is in Saskatchewan having meetings with producers, asking who should be appointed to the new board of directors. If that is not contempt for parliament I am not sure what is. It takes away my ability to do my job.

At the same time we have one of the biggest past supporters of the Canadian Wheat Board changing horses. The Sask Pool seems to be bailing out. It is jumping ship, realizing that things are changing.

One of the major newspapers farmers get in western Canada is the Western Producer . Its headline on January 29 was “Canadian Wheat Board Supporters March Against Proposed Changes”. A group of demonstrators was outside when the minister was having his clandestine meeting about who should be appointed to the new Canadian Wheat Board. They were chanting “Goodale must go”. These people support orderly marketing. They see changes that are not acceptable. Nothing will destroy the Canadian Wheat Board faster than a minister of agriculture who has the arrogance not to listen to producers.

Who asked for the legislation? The Reform Party suggested some time ago that there should be a choice in how farmers market their grain, that we should keep the Canadian Wheat Board for those people who want to use it but allow choice for those who do not. We also suggested that if we are to have that choice and if the Canadian Wheat Board continues to operate a board of directors consisting of producers and farmers it is a good idea, but it should be elected from producers so there is accountability. It should not be one in which the government of the day decides to appoint one-third of the directors, to have a CEO appointed by government, and continues to have effective control. The board of directors would be controlled by the Minister responsible for the Canadian Wheat Board and that is simply not good enough in these times.

This is all about accountability. Russia used to have state trading enterprises. We have seen what planned economies did over there. They destroyed the ability to produce enough food to feed even their own countrymen. It is going that way here too. Canada is moving out of step with the entire world.

The other day in the House a question was asked of the Minister for International Trade about his support for the financial services package. Why was that done? The Minister for International Trade is a seatmate of the Minister responsible for the Canadian Wheat Board. While he was up explaining why the Canadian government was supporting the financial services package signed in Geneva, the Minister responsible for the Canadian Wheat Board was looking at him and applauding until it got to a part that he did not like.

In response to that question the Minister for International Trade said that the recent crisis in southeast Asia and the APEC meetings in Vancouver pointed out the need for more transparency in how these institutions work. Indeed that is what is needed. The IMF has asked southeast Asian countries, if they are to receive packages to transform their economies, to have more transparency in industries like banking.

At the same time the Minister responsible for the Canadian Wheat Board was looking up at the Minister for International Trade. People had puzzled looks on their faces. This is the minister who will not allow transparency in the Canadian Wheat Board. He does not want the auditor general to audit the books of the Canadian Wheat Board. He does not want them to come under the Access to Information Act or the Secrecy Act. What kind of a responsible minister is that? I suggest the minister will be the death knell for the Canadian Wheat Board. There are people who would not feel badly if that were to happen, but they are very few and far between.

Western Canadian farmers respect each other's abilities and responsibilities. There are those who want to market their own grain, which I support 100%. I also respect the wish of those who want to use the Canadian Wheat Board as a pooled account to accept average returns. We could have it both ways, but we cannot if the Minister responsible for the Canadian Wheat Board introduces such idiotic changes to the board that he antagonizes the entire agricultural community in western Canada.

I join with those protesters in Regina that said the Minister responsible for the Canadian Wheat Board must go to bring about some kind of half decent reform to our entire grain handling system.

[Lee Morrison, Reform, Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK]

Mr. Speaker, I am very pleased to speak to the Group No. 4 amendments to Bill C-4 at report stage. I will first deal with the amendment concerning a fully elected board. That is what farmers are almost unanimously requesting on the prairies. There is only a halfway elected board being proposed by the minister.

The whole idea of having five appointed members, political hacks sitting on a board which is there ostensibly to serve the interests of Canadian farmers, is absolutely repugnant. With that set up, as long as the minister has his five captive appointees they only have to win the support of three out of ten of elected producer board members and they can do anything they like in, of or for the Canadian Wheat Board. I do not know of any other organization that operates under those parameters.

Why should the board not be fully elected and empowered to elect its own officers? Has the minister's legal training destroyed his faith in the capacity of farmers to manage their own affairs? Does he look upon them as a bunch simple serfs who should bow and tug their earth stained forelocks whenever they approach his eminence or any of his bureaucrats? Farmers are not made that way.

This is a little personal anecdote. On January 20 I attended a grain day meeting with about 200 farmers in Swift Current. It was organized by the Canadian Wheat Board. Most of the 200 farmers present were staunch supporters of the Canadian Wheat Board. I might even say most of them were rabid supporters of the Canadian Wheat Board. The key speaker was Lorne Hehn, the chief commissioner of the board.

When a motion was proposed from the floor that the meeting go on record as favouring the withdrawal of Bill C-4 from consideration, a huge majority voted in favour of that motion. They are wheat board supporters and almost to a man or a woman, they do not want this bill. So much for the results of the minister's vaunted consultation with producers. I would like to know which producers he consulted with and what precisely they produce because he sure was not consulting with the farmers who produce the grain.

I conduct polls on a regular basis because, unlike the people over there, I do like to know the views of my constituents on the issues of the day. In my most recent mail-in poll I asked a very specific question: Would you like me to support or oppose Bill C-4?

Replies are still trickling in. Of the responses I have already received only 23% say they would like me to support this legislation. I know the minister is very well aware that support for the board is stronger in my riding than anywhere else in western Canada but that support clearly does not extend to him or to his ill-conceived legislation which he is trying to ram down the throats of farmers.

Another amendment which is very important, and it also applies to this question of whether or not the board is going to be democratic, is that the fully elected board, not the minister, must control the selection of the president if farmers are going to have any real say in how the board is going to operate. After all it is the guy who has his hands on the levers on a day to day basis who is really going to make the important decisions.

A president cannot act as directed by the farmer elected board of directors if the minister at his own discretion can call for the termination of that man or woman's position. It just does not make any sense. A president who answers in this way to the minister cannot act in the best interests of the corporation or the producers. He can only be a captive of ministerial discretion.

I would like to jump to No. 18 on this list of proposed amendments. The directors and officers must be placed in a position where the duty and care of farmers, the interests of farmers, is their primary purpose, not serving the interests of the corporation.

There was a court case in Manitoba not too long ago wherein it was determined that the board does not have a fiduciary responsibility to farmers. Their responsibility, and this is a clear court decision, is to the board. If we are going to work within those parameters, surely to heaven the board must be responsible to farmers, must be chosen by farmers and must choose its own officers from among farmers. Otherwise we simply continue the same situation where the board and the board alone is at the end of the responsibility road and it has a fiduciary responsibility only to the government.

The board's job under those conditions is not to get the best available price for the farmer's grain. It is to sell the grain in the largest possible volumes as quickly as possible and get it out of its hair. That is a rather absurd way to operate a business enterprise.

[Inky Mark, Reform, Dauphin—Swan River, MB]

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to speak again on C-4. The farmers of Dauphin—Swan River believe in the wheat board but want more accountability. They also believe that options must be made available to the producer.

Farmers in Dauphin—Swan River want the wheat board to be not only accountable but more flexible and more transparent. This would mean that the Canadian Wheat Board should change the current system of government appointments to a fully elected board of directors, not just 10 out of 15.

The Canadian Wheat Board must be made more accountable to the Access to Information Act. In other words if people want information, they should have the right to get it by asking.

The wheat board should be audited by the auditor general. Former speakers have alluded to that aspect.

There is no doubt that the current act maintains the minister's excessive power and influence over the wheat board. That needs to be changed.

Agriculture is the backbone of the economy in Dauphin—Swan River. All economic activity in Dauphin—Swan River is dependent on the economic welfare of the farmer and the agricultural community. If the farmer has a dollar in his pocket, it is probably quite likely he will spend it and through this expenditure life will certainly be enhanced. This will improve life generally for all rural Manitobans in Dauphin—Swan River.

The lesson here is that governments must learn that they need to leave more money in the pockets of the producers and citizens of this country. The governance of the Canadian Wheat Board must do all it can to put money into the pockets of the producers whom they are supposed to represent.

On February 2 I was absent from this House to attend a meeting in Strathclair, Manitoba. The meeting concerned the Canadian Wheat Board and grain transportation. Present at the meeting were representatives from the Canadian Wheat Board as well as exporters of other grain products, and the Hudson Bay rail line company.

The most significant change that has occurred in this past year is the privatization of both the Hudson Bay rail line and the port of Churchill. It was interesting that back in 1930, as I have indicated to this House previously, the government of the day had vision for this country concerning the movement of grain the shortest distance to markets and not just east and west as has been occurring over the last 60 years.

That is the reason the port of Churchill was built back in 1930, which is a long time ago. The mileage distance has not changed. Today the port of Churchill is still 1,600 kilometres closer to European markets than to Thunder Bay. The port of Churchill is still the catchment area for 25% of the grain growing region of Canada.

Despite this knowledge, obviously it has not had an impact in the decisions that have been made by this House and by the Canadian Wheat Board over the last 60 years in which way the transportation of grain should occur.

It is hard to believe that even today that facility is like new probably because of underutilization. It still has a storage capacity of five million bushels. It has harbours for oceangoing ships, much larger ships than they can handle in the Thunder Bay ports.

At the Strathclair February 2 meeting the Canadian Wheat Board representatives were ecstatic in telling people how much grain they shipped from the port this past year, 400,000 tonnes. There are over 30 million tonnes of grain grown in western Canada so 400,000 tonnes is really a drop in the bucket.

There is no argument that it is cheaper to ship agriculture products through the port of Churchill. Farmers should no longer be forced to transport their grain, their agricultural product, to a port that increases their transportation costs and does not maximize their returns. They must have the right to ship to other ports of choice. They do not at this time because they are under the influence and authority of the Canadian Wheat Board.

The transfer of the Hudson Bay rail line to a short line operator should be viewed as good news. Likewise the transfer of the port of Churchill to the private sector should be viewed as good news to the government.

All the communities along the short line depend on activity for sustainability not only on the line but also the port. The town of Churchill depends on the port for economic survival. This past summer I had the opportunity to talk to the mayor and council of Churchill. They told me about the impact of the port. If the port was not there, their community probably would disappear off the edge of the map.

The rail line brings tourism. It brings people who want to come up to Churchill. Look at the picture of the famous Canadian polar bear on the toonie. This can only happen if the shipment of agricultural products continues to be headed in the northward direction.

I would like to close by saying that the fate of the Hudson Bay rail line and the port of Churchill is in the hands of the Canadian Wheat Board at this time because of the rules that are utilized in terms of the transportation of the grain produced on the prairies. The future of the short line and the port are dependent on the grain moving to the northern port.

At the February 2 meeting at Strathclair, I challenged the Canadian Wheat Board representatives that if it is in the best interests of farmers to move grain north to Churchill and if that proposal and that direction will put money in the hands of farmers, then what seems to be the problem with the Canadian Wheat Board moving grain north through the port of Churchill? As well I challenged them to double or triple their record for 1997 which was set at 400,000 tonnes.

The bottom line is that the Canadian Wheat Board must be more accountable to the farmers of Canada. This bill needs a lot of change before it will make that happen.

[Rick Casson, Reform, Lethbridge, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to rise today to join my colleagues in addressing Bill C-4, particularly Group No. 4 of the amendments.

The Canadian Wheat Board is of great significance in my constituency. In and around Lethbridge and indeed right across the prairies people deal with the wheat board on a daily basis.

The wheat board and this government somewhere along the line have lost touch. The board seems to have forgotten to whom it is accountable and whose interests it was originally destined to serve.

A true producer mandate and true accountability can be returned to the Canadian Wheat Board, if it can be returned, and a great deal of division among producers can be alleviated. They can resume their primary responsibilities to supply Canadians and many other citizens of the world with food to feed their families while making a decent living for their own families.

There are grain farmers who want to see the Canadian Wheat Board dismantled completely because they are so fed up with the lack of accountability to producers and a lack of options. We are almost at an impasse. Either this minister continues to ignore the demands of producers while many grain farmers are inappropriately fined and jailed or he takes this sorry excuse of a bill back to the drawing board, start agreeing to the important amendments presented by my colleagues and start listening to the full scope of recommendations by producers and their western grain marketing panel.

Producers want a fully elected board. Why does the government continue to ignore the wishes of the majority of farmers? The Liberal government wants to continue to interfere with democracy by opting for a voting system that includes five government appointed directors. Why is the government afraid to give in to a completely democratic and fully elected wheat board? The time has come for the government to relinquish its monopoly on grain marketing. A fully effective board of directors is a fully elected board of directors, if the voice of farmers is truly to be heard. With 5 appointed members and 10 elected members, only 30% of those elected can sway the majority on a board set up like this.

The government has chosen to cherry pick through the recommendations of the western grain marketing panel, continuing to focus on the recommendations which fit its agenda and ignoring the recommendations which fit producer needs. This Liberal government refuses to relinquish its strong arm tactics in grain marketing. The time is long overdue for government to remove its political interference in the marketing of grain and start giving producers the options they have long requested.

In Bill C-4 the government has once again failed to prove to producers that it is in the grain marketing business for the benefit of producers. The time is long overdue for grain marketing to be treated with common sense, using sound marketing principles, in order to bring maximum returns to producers for their products. Monopolies in other industries are rarely tolerated, so why are western grain producers the exception to the rule? This proves the government and this minister are out of touch with western Canada and its grain producers.

The majority of producer groups opposed to Bill C-4 have been working hard and steadily since the House last debated this legislation. We have all attended meetings over the December-January break and overwhelmingly people want this bill taken back and reworked. They have continued to pressure the minister to take opposition amendments seriously. There are many of these producer groups, Canadian canola growers, Manitoba canola growers, flax growers, oat producers, Alberta winter wheat, western barley growers, and the list goes on an on.

According to a group called the committee to end secrecy at the Canadian Wheat Board, and this should be an interest to all taxpayers of Canada, not just farmers and producers, Canadian taxpayers hold a $7 billion liability through the Canadian Wheat Board and have paid millions of dollars on behalf of foreign grain purchases in order to hold this liability to its current level. Although the Canadian Wheat Board does produce an annual report which provides a limited amount of information, its exemption from the federal Access to Information Act means taxpayers and farmers are unable to independently evaluate its operations and performance. When questioned by producers to validate these claims, we cannot because the information is kept secret.

A detailed synopsis of the $7 billion liability and the transactions that led to this debt is also being requested. The outstanding amount owed is equal to $1000 for every average family in Canada.

The government has not shown producers that it will be responsible to them through a completely producer elected board. Instead it insists on appointing the key members of the board. Speaking to Group No. 4, Motion No. 7, the act should be amended so as to render the board fully elected in order to comply with the wishes of the majority of farmers. Subsequently, if the aforementioned amendment were adopted, section 3.024 would be deleted since it would not be necessary to specify equal powers between elected and non-elected directors.

On Motion No. 8 it is imperative that if the government refuses to support a fully elected board that quorum for board of directors meetings require two elected directors for every one government appointed director.

The necessity of such a motion is self-evident. However, if the government could simply accept the democratic principle behind a fully elected board, we could find a resolution that would better serve the interests of our producers.

In addressing Group No. 4 amendments, Motions Nos. 9, 14, 15 and 17, the importance of the hiring, firing and control of a president must be left in the hands of an elected board. Once again, the issue of democracy should supersede sweeping ministerial powers.

If the government could look at the logistics of such an amendment, its sense of fairness and justice would inevitably lead it to conclude that the wheat board president would be more accountable to producers if he or she were directed by the farmer elected board of directors instead of being held to the whim of a minister who cannot possibly be more in tune with the best interests of producers than producers themselves. To reach any other conclusion is insulting to producers.

Logically speaking, who is the closest in touch with what producers need, an elected board of directors subject to the approval of their peers or a far removed minister in Ottawa who in all honesty has a scope of responsibility that exceeds and often conflicts with the interests of producers? Leave the daily workings of a grain marketing board to those in the business.

Motion No. 10 of today's amendments necessitates support because multi-generation farming operations are the cornerstone of farming communities across this great country. This is an issue of respect and fairness. The votes of producers who rely exclusively on farming for their livelihood and whose livelihood depends on how the Canadian Wheat Board markets its grain must have more weight than producers who do not.

Getting back to the issue of ministerial involvement versus democratic participation, I now refer to Motions Nos. 11 and 12. In the process of electing directors to the wheat board, any possibility of ministerial heavy handedness should be avoided at all costs.

On January 21, 1998 the minister showed his contempt for democracy in this House of Commons by holding a meeting in Regina to discuss the rules for the election of directors to the Canadian Wheat Board board of directors as proposed in Bill C-4. This shows a disregard for Parliament, as the bill is still being debated, which includes amendments that would determine the number of directors to be elected.

A number of the groups invited to the Regina meeting walked out on the minister when he refused to discuss amendments to Bill C-4, and there were farmers outside protesting.

The importance of Motion No. 16 cannot be ignored. Motion No. 16 is the guiding principle of responsibility in business dealings. The Liberal government will be hard pressed to deny the ethical importance of Motions Nos. 16 and 19. Making the wheat board a signatory to the international code of ethics for Canadian businesses and requiring the directors and officers of the CWB to be guided by the duty of care should be applauded by all members of this House.

I am confident that all my colleagues, regardless of political affiliation, will support amendments that call for ethical, social and environmentally responsible business practices. Any member who votes against such righteous amendments will have a lot of explaining to do to their constituents.

To conclude, the Liberal government took the time and went through considerable effort in setting up a panel to make recommendations in producing Bill C-4. Why does it not put to rest the suspicions of producers and the divisive aspects of the Canadian Wheat Board?

Rural families of Canada, families on both sides of this issue, deserve more. They deserve more than this incomplete effort known as Bill C-4. In order to safeguard the interests of Canadian producers, I recommend that all amendments that put democracy ahead of sweeping ministerial powers and hold the wheat board to a code of ethical, social and environmentally responsible business practices be supported.

[Derrek Konrad, Reform, Prince Albert, SK]

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to rise in the House today to speak on the proposed amendments to the Canadian Wheat Board Act, Bill C-4. We are addressing today the Group No. 4 amendments intended to give farmers, the owners of the means of production, their land and machinery, and who would like to be the owners of the produce, an opportunity to control the only marketing organization available to them, the Canadian Wheat Board.

The government would have us believe that every farmer in western Canada is clamouring to get into the monopolistic Canadian Wheat Board organization and that farmers are all pleading for the Canadian Wheat Board to maintain total marketing control. It would also have this House believe that farmers want the federal government to maintain control of the wheat board through the appointment of the president and four of the directors. Farmers have not been heard on the issue of farmer control.

I would like to recount one farmer's story in this House so that members will know how some farmers view this legislation. Mr. Russ Torkelson from the Weyburn area has opted out in the only way he can opt out. He no longer grows any Canadian Wheat Board crops on his approximately 4,000 acre farm.

Why did Mr. Torkelson opt out of the Canadian What Board system? He is unable to manage his risk and his risk is significant. Nothing is known when a farmer puts a crop in the ground about the price they are going to get under the wheat board system, but they know all about the input costs. They range from $65 an acre to $100 or $105 an acre. It averages out at about $80 an acre. We can see what this means to a man who has 4,000 acres of farmland. The cash cost of his input is $80 an acre. That does not include the cost of machinery, buildings, taxes or maintenance. What it does cover are simple things like seed, fertilizer, pesticides, herbicides and fuel.

When the wheat board was operating as it should 30 or 40 years ago farmers did not need all the fertilizers they need now. The nutrients in the land have been depleted and farmers have to put it back in. It is an added input cost. It does not seem to have its way to the Canadian Wheat Board that these things need to be paid for, but the farmers are paying every time they put a crop in the ground.

What does a farmer yield? About 20 to 25 bushels an acre. They need a significant return on their investment. They cannot afford to have uncertainties beyond the things they cannot control, which ought not to include the price farmers get for wheat. The uncertainties should be the weather and infestations of pests and things of that nature. They certainly should not have the unknown of the price they can expect to get. What other business in Canada operates under those circumstances where a person provides a good or a service and has no idea what he will get in return? Farmers have precious little control over it in that the government says who is going to be on the board.

What does Mr. Torkelson do when he grows his non-Canadian Wheat Board crops, which include oats, canola, flax, lentils, canary seed and things of that nature? By the way, those crops are subject to be taken under the control of the Canadian Wheat Board which will give him even less control over his costs.

How does he market his crops when the Canadian Wheat Board is not involved? He spends his entire winter getting into the markets in Chicago and Winnipeg. He is fully wired in. He is on line. He spent the time from last fall when he took the crops off until now locking in next year's crops. That is the way he manages his risks.

Who knows what a wheat board which takes no risk is doing? If the risk belongs to the farmer, he must be able to manage it through an open and fully accountable board of directors. It should not be a board of directors which is set up by the government for the government.

When a farmer grows wheat he has no control over basis costs. These are set by the grain commission and frequently they have no basis in reality. What is a basis cost? It is the transportation cost after delivery. The crops may not ever have left the farm if the farmer is working with a buyback system, but basis costs apply. That does not make sense to Mr. Torkelson.

Working outside the Canadian Wheat Board, Mr. Torkelson is able to negotiate his own basis costs, which have been lower than Canadian Wheat Board crop basis costs. This year on flax alone his costs were one-tenth of those set by the Canadian Wheat Board. The rest goes into his pocket until the government taxes it back.

What else can he do outside the Canadian Wheat Board? He can lock a price in with a broker from Winnipeg or Chicago independently. There is a risk involved, but it is the owner's risk. He takes the chance. He already took a risk putting the crop in the ground. He is taking a risk selling it. It is his land, his machinery, his crop, his choice, his risk. He feels that if producers had control of the Canadian Wheat Board, as proposed by the Reform Party, it could be an effective selling agent for western farmers. However, as it is, he opts out.

Mr. Torkelson competes successfully in the North American grain market, in a global marketplace really, because he is on line. As it is, he and many other farmers feel that the Canadian Wheat Board and the proposed amendments fit the government and not the farmers whom the board is supposed to serve and benefit by getting the best price, not orderly marketing, whatever that is. These words are without much meaning, orderly marketing as opposed to getting a good price. The board does not care how it is sold but it is concerned about how much it can take to the bank.

I call on the government to adopt these Group No. 4 amendments under consideration here. Only then will farmers support the board and willingly participate in Canadian Wheat Board controlled crops.

[Howard Hilstrom, Reform, Selkirk—Interlake, MB]

Mr. Speaker, being a new member of Parliament, I have not had a whole lot of opportunity to speak to the House to this point. In doing so on these amendments to the Canadian Wheat Board Act, the particular clauses dealing with the election and duty of directors, I would like to mention that I have a vested interest in this bill and a vested interest from a personal point of view, along with the views of my constituents.

I am a cattle rancher from an area where there is a lot of grain production. We are just north of Winnipeg. As a result, what I talk about here today is very close to my heart as well as my pocketbook, something which is really not the case for a lot of other members in this House, particularly on the other side.

The farmers in our area definitely want to retain a wheat board. However, they do not want to be forced to sell their products solely to the Canadian Wheat Board. I have some suggestions that I will come to in a moment as to how they should be treated and the kind of board that we should be dealing with for western Canadian farmers.

It is a little bit hard to debate the Canadian Wheat Board bill today because the wheat board is currently being challenged in the Winnipeg courts on constitutional grounds by, I believe, a farmer named Mr. Dave Bryan, so the debate we are having here today may well be pointless. If that court finds that it is against the constitutional rights of farmers to be forced to sell their grain there then, as I say, we will be talking about nothing.

The crown attorney in charge of that case is a more junior crown attorney whom I have known for some years. It is not a case where they are putting in the top federal prosecutor.

Getting back to the election and duty of directors, I would like to say that the purpose of the Canadian Wheat Board and its directors is to ensure that this commercial entity maximizes returns to producers. Here again we are talking dollars in the pocketbook.

The minister for the Canadian Wheat Board and the backbenchers on the other side of the House, a lot of whom are from Ontario, certainly represent their farmers. I would like to point out to the House that the roughly 1.3 million tonnes of wheat that they produced last year did not go overseas. It went to the United States and the Canadian milling industry. Why does anyone suppose that is where it went?

I can show members Ontario farm magazines which will clearly show that the reason the wheat does not go offshore is because they get the best price in the United States and the best price milling here in Canada. They do not want to be part of the Canadian Wheat Board. They do not want to be a director. They do not want to have any duty to make sure the wheat board works well. Why do we have the wheat board that we have today? That is the problem dealing with these elections and duties of directors when in fact the wheat board is not even serving western Canadians by maximizing their profits.

Farmers out our way, as I said, want to have a wheat board. But what they really want is a wheat board along the line of these new generation co-ops where the people and the farmers who are in the organization, the wheat board, the co-ops or whatever we want to call it, want to be there. Everybody in an organization who wants to be there will make sure that organization works well and maximizes profits.

The problem with the wheat board and the amendments being brought forward today is we have a significant number of farmers who do not want to be in the wheat board. We end up with these massive legal arguments. I heard today about the half tonne truck which has up to $135,000 or $150,000 worth of assessments against it by Revenue Canada. This kind of wheat board and the opposition to it is sapping the very strength out of and killing the profits that the farmers are supposed to be making. That is what should be dealt with here today. It is that very profit making incentive.

Once again, the duty of the directors who are elected should be strictly to maximize profits. I think western Canadians quite clearly do not trust the federal government and Ontario, Quebec and the other provinces telling us in Alberta, Saskatchewan, Manitoba and a small portion of B.C. how we should run our commercial operations, our farms and our ranches.

The directors that we would like to see elected from our constituencies would be purely decided by western Canadians. There would be no appointments from Ottawa, no dictates from on high. We would end up with the provinces that I mentioned previously deciding how to run the elections. They have a very clear vested interest in the operation of a future wheat board. That is the kind of elections we would like to see.

The duties of these directors would be dictated by the provinces in the west that are producing the grain, not by Ottawa which has other interests. I am sure that every bushel of grain in every negotiation overseas is not based solely on “Oh, boy, I hope I can get that farmer up in Selkirk the best dollar for this”.

There is no doubt that foreign interests come in. We have all seen the Minister of Foreign Affairs and the weight he throws around in Manitoba and in this government. That is one of the big concerns of the farmers in western Canada. Decisions are not made purely on a commercial basis.

I will not get into the secrecy of this because that is a debate for another day, but I would like to mention oats. Oats used to come under the Canadian Wheat Board. Many people have said “Is there a disaster now that oats are no longer under the wheat board?” I spoke to this very issue when I was travelling around my constituency. When oats no longer came under the wheat board, there was a short time frame when the marketing of oats was not clear cut and profits maximized, but within a very few months the marketing of oats was great and profits were maximized.

They will not find anybody now growing oats begging to get back into the Canadian Wheat Board. This is the very thing I am talking about, the wheat board for the future. The wheat board has to be run, controlled, directed by western Canadian farmers.

A lot of them want to have this marketing board. I assure members of that. They want to maximize their profits.

The net income for farmers in Ontario and Quebec is much higher than it is in Manitoba, Saskatchewan or Alberta. It shows that a marketing board for the dairy industry, I guess that accounts for the majority of the profits here, can be a very strong influence on the net profits that farmers make and that is what we want in western Canada.

The prairie provinces want to run the Canadian Wheat Board and that is not happening with these amendments here today.

The elections will go ahead. We will end up with new directors of the wheat board, but the duties that they will end up being given will come from Ottawa. That is why this new wheat board, with the amendments to it, will not work. It will not survive more than a few years if they go through.

My earlier suggestions regarding the Canadian Wheat Board being run by westerners and the sapping of strength by having it run from Ottawa is that this membership composed of western farmers will maximize profits.

Under this set-up, I would imagine that a wheat cartel would arise where the rest of the world, Canadian millers and everybody else, would have to pay the maximum price. There would be no in-fighting.

I appreciate the opportunity to talk on this topic today. It has a lot to do with the profits we will make in the west. Please, give us a break.

[Bill Blaikie, NDP, Winnipeg—Transcona, MB]

Mr. Speaker, I am very pleased to make a brief intervention into this debate on the Canadian Wheat Board.

I listened carefully to the member from the Reform Party, a member from my province. I want to ask what it is about the Reform Party, what is the source of this great self-loathing that they have with respect to Canada, that time and time again we see them as an instrument of American and multinational corporate power when it comes to so many different policy areas.

We saw the other week and we see it again with respect to the wheat board. We saw it just last week with respect to the whole question of bank mergers. What was the Reform Party solution to the prospect of the Royal Bank and the Bank of Montreal merging—

[The Deputy Speaker]

Order please.

[Lee Morrison, Reform, Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK]

Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order. I would like to know what the relevance of the Bank Act is to what we are debating today.

[The Deputy Speaker]

I think the Chair has been fairly lenient in respect to the relevancy rules. We are discussing Group No. 4 which I understand deals with governance and the appointment of directors and so on of the Canadian Wheat Board.

I am sure the hon. member for Winnipeg—Transcona in his remarks about the Bank Act was moving toward discussion of the appointment of the directors of the Canada Wheat Board. I am looking forward to his remarks in that regard.

[Bill Blaikie, NDP, Winnipeg—Transcona, MB]

Mr. Speaker, I did not know that using analogies and drawing parallels between one position and another was out of order. I am glad that you have ruled it is not.

Going back to what I was saying, we see this consistency in the position of the Reform Party with respect to any policy area that has to do with the pre-eminence of Canadian public interest against the rule that American corporate interests would like to play in the Canadian economy, whether that is the role of American banks that would like a larger foothold in the Canadian economy or whether it is the role of American or other multinational agribusiness corporations that would like a greater foothold in the Canadian economy.

What is the response of the Reform Party in both cases? Fine with us. We would just like to be able to sell them a little wheat off-board for ostensibly a higher price forgetting the lesson of many, many years, forgetting the fact that that is what used to be the case. That is precisely because that did not work that we came to establish the Canadian Wheat Board pools. That is a history lesson. Oh, no, the Reform Party is bothered again. One of its members is up on another point of order.

[Garry Breitkreuz, Reform, Yorkton—Melville, SK]

Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order. I beg that the Chair rule on the relevance of this. We have just explained that 97% of farmers are in favour of the amendment I put forward.

The member is not relevant. He is saying things that are totally inappropriate and off topic.

[The Deputy Speaker]

Hon. members may disagree with what the hon. member for Winnipeg—Transcona is saying, but if the Chair were to insist that the remarks of every member who is speaking to Bill C-4—and this appears to be a fairly general debate on Bill C-4, to the Chair—be relevant to the amendments now before the House, I am afraid I would have been asking hon. members to resume their seats for some time now.

I stress that we are debating Bill C-4. I think the hon. member is discussing Bill C-4. While it may not be particularly relevant to the amendment moved by the hon. member for Yorkton—Melville, there is a string of amendments in Group No. 4 and I assume we will hear in due course how the hon. member ties into those.

[Bill Blaikie, NDP, Winnipeg—Transcona, MB]

Mr. Speaker, I am reminded of a saying of a former prime minister of the House, John Diefenbaker. He said that you can always tell when you throw a stone whether you have hit anything or not because they start to yelp. We have heard some yelping on the part of the Reform Party. It is because perhaps at some deep psychic level Reformers are uncomfortable with the way in which they continually re-emerge in the Chamber as the defender of American corporate interests.

Speaking more specifically to the amendment which presumably will make my colleagues in the Reform Party happier, I notice with respect to the nature of the voting for the Canadian Wheat Board that the Reform Party wants big farmers to have more votes than smaller farmers.

This is interesting from a party that consistently makes the argument with respect to Senate reform that all provinces should be equal in the Senate. Whether it is Prince Edward Island or Ontario, there should be an equality of say in the Senate.

What happens to this principle when it comes to farmers? What happens to the sanctity of the view of small farmers when it comes to the governance that the Reform Party would like to see with respect to the wheat board? This principle seems to have gone out the window altogether. Perhaps somebody could explain that when they get up next.

Is this another way of telegraphing the way in which Reform Party policy eventually merges with or coincides with the long term interests of members of American agribusiness that no doubt foresee the day or long for the day when there will not be any small farmers and they will be able to buy up more and more of our agriculture and more and more of our farms? If the Reform Party had its way, not only would they have the power that comes from ownership. They would have the power that comes from more votes being allocated to larger enterprises with respect to how the wheat board is governed.

Finally, just one more thing occurred to me as I have listened to Reform Party members over the last little while talking about rail line abandonment. We have to be careful what we ask for. The railways are now operating according to profit. The railways are now operating according to maximizing their profit in every way, putting aside entirely the whole notion of service and what is good for the community.

This is exactly the kind of commercial paradigm the Reform Party and others have been asking the railways to operate on for the last 20 years. Now they have it and they cannot stand it. Now they have it and they are starting to sound like New Democrats saying “Why don't they keep that line open? It is important to the community. Why don't they keep this line open? It is important to farmers”.

Why do they not do this or that? They are not doing it because we have precisely the kind of railway transportation system in the country Reformers pushed for and finally succeeded in getting. It is their own fault.

[Monte Solberg, Reform, Medicine Hat, AB]

Mr. Speaker, it is a pleasure to speak to Bill C-4 today. It is interesting to hear my friend from Winnipeg speak. It is 1998 and the member is still engaging in 1960s rhetoric, calling Reform Party members tools of the capitalist pigs or imperialist dogs. He is engaging in conspiracy theories about some collusion with multinationals and transnationals. The more things change, the more they remain the same.

I will discuss some specific items in the bill. I will also address some of the issues my friend has raised.

[Bill Blaikie, NDP, Winnipeg—Transcona, MB]

You had better stick to the amendment.

[Monte Solberg, Reform, Medicine Hat, AB]

My friend says that I had better stick to the amendment. I certainly will, unlike him.

My friend raised one issue that is addressed in the amendment. He said, again in his conspiracy theory, that the Reform Party is somehow engaged in an attack on small farmers. He said that one of our amendments would somehow disenfranchise small farmers.

All it does is stand up for multigenerational farms. There are situations where farmers and perhaps a son or a couple of sons are on the farm. We want to ensure they all have a vote. Why does the NDP insist on attacking family farms? What do NDPers have against family farms?

All we are doing is ensuring that a hobby farmer, a lawyer in the big city or maybe even an imperialist dog who may have a little land in the country is unable to wipe out with one vote the vote of a multigenerational family farm. That is what we are standing up for. That is speaking to the amendments.

We wish to address a number of other items. We want to talk about the amendment of the member for Prince George—Peace River in northern B.C. The member proposes that we have a fully elected membership on the Canadian Wheat Board. That makes tremendous sense to me. I am surprised my NDP friends who are allegedly great populists did not stand in support of the idea of democracy in the Canadian Wheat Board. Do they not believe in allowing farmers to control their very own institutions? It makes tremendous sense to me. Not only does the NDP not want that but the government does not want that.

Because of tremendous pressure the government is at the point where it will consider allowing some directors to be elected, but it will certainly not engender the possibility of the majority of board members voting to open the board in any way. The government will not only ensure that enough of those members are appointed in the old standard way. It will also insist that the president be appointed by the agriculture minister.

I come from a part of the country where we embrace free enterprise principles. People there believe in the free market. In every other area they say we should have the choice to market our product the way we choose. We want the choice. Many people say they want to retain the Canadian Wheat Board as a voluntary organization.

A few minutes ago somebody spoke of the wheat board as a co-operative. It is not a co-operative as it stands now. It is a coercive. You have to belong to it. If you do not and you try to market your grain without going through the board, you will end up in shackles and leg irons like many Canadian farmers already have. To me that is absolutely ridiculous. If we are great believers in co-operatives, let us make the Canadian Wheat Board truly a co-operative. Let us allow people to be a part of it if they so choose.

We have a violation of the traditional natural rights to life, liberty and property. When it comes to liberty and property in this case, those fundamental natural rights are being abridged by the government and the Canadian Wheat Board. People in the west are upset about it.

We have seen numerous court cases. We have seen all kinds of protests. We have seen people breaking the law, committing acts of civil disobedience because they have had it with a government that is not permitting them to feed their families.

We have people who are looking across the border or considering the price they could get for their grain if they were allowed to market it themselves so they can feed their families. The government is saying “No, you cannot do that” and is sending those people to jail.

I cannot believe it. I am someone who comes from the west. I do not have an interest in a farm but I have sat and watched from the outside for a number of years. When I go around my riding, which is in southern Alberta, overwhelming people want the choice to belong to the board or not. Almost to a person, no matter what side of the issue they are on, they are very concerned about Bill C-4. They see it as a step backward.

I will speak to some other issues so that my friends in the NDP do not get up and accuse me of not being relevant. One issue my friend from Prince George—Peace River raised is really important. It is a motion to require the president to take steps to make the Canadian Wheat Board a signatory to the international code of ethics for Canadian business.

By way of background, the government has initiated a code of ethics. It has insisted that Canadian businesses that want to deal abroad follow the code of ethics.

Does it insist that government agencies be signatories to the code of ethics? No. Does it suggest that the Canadian Wheat Board that markets billions of dollars worth of grain around the world every year should be a signatory to the code of ethics? No.

We have the same old double standard. We have the government on one side saying “do as I say and not as I do”. Farmers and everybody else are expected to live up to a different standard. If experience tells us anything, we know that Canadian business people have higher ethical standards than the government. We have seen that over and over again.

The government displays unusual effrontery this time. It is the one that raises the issue. It is actually encouraging Canadian business to do it but will not live up to it. I find that unbelievable. I urge members to support Motion No. 16 in Group No. 4.

I summarize by saying that Bill C-4 is a rear guard action. Canadian farmers have made it very clear they will not tolerate the current Canadian Wheat Board. They will not tolerate any half measures. They want to see sweeping change. They want to see a voluntary Canadian Wheat Board. They want to have their natural rights restored, the rights to liberty and the rights to property. Those natural rights precede laws that come from government. We want to see them re-established.

I urge my friends in the House to consider very carefully the arguments of the Reform Party and certainly those of Canadian farmers who are willing in many cases to go to jail for them. I encourage my friends to vote with the Reform Party in support of the Reform amendments in Group No. 4.

1998 Olympic Games

[John Harvard, Liberal, Charleswood—Assiniboine, MB]

Mr. Speaker, Canada is seeing gold, Olympic gold.

I am proud to rise in the House today to congratulate the 153 Canadian athletes who make up our country's team to the 1998 Nagano Olympic Winter Games. I know all hon. members and Canadians wish our athletes the very best.

It is of particular pleasure to rise in this place to congratulate Canada's first medal recipient, Ross Rebagliati. Rebagliati has not only won gold for Canada. He made Olympic history and did so in a new sport, the snowboard slalom.

My sincerest congratulations to all the athletes who are representing Canada with such grace and style and who epitomize the values of excellence, dedication, discipline and fair play. They are indeed great ambassadors of a great nation.

Good luck Team Canada, your country is behind you.

Ross Rebagliati

[John Reynolds, Reform, West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast, BC]

Mr. Speaker, over the weekend at the Olympics in Nagano, 26 year old Ross Rebagliati of Whistler, B.C. brought Canada's first gold medal at the Olympics. Ross became the first ever winner of the gold medal in snowboarding.

Ross' gold medal is more than a personal achievement and a number in Canada's quest for gold. The gold medal victory signifies the bond between Ross and his long time friend Geoff “Lumpy” Leidel, who died last month in an avalanche in Kootenay national park, and to whom Ross dedicated the medal.

This is more than a gold medal for Canada. It is a statement to the indomitable spirit of Ross Rebagliati, the bond of a friendship and should serve as an inspiration and reminder of what the Olympics signify.

Ross, you are the personification of the Olympic spirit. Congratulations.

Mahatma Gandhi

[Karen Kraft Sloan, Liberal, York North, ON]

Mr. Speaker, 50 years ago on January 30, 1948 the world lost a noble man, the great souled or pre-eminent leader of Indian nationalism, Mahatma Gandhi.

Gandhi was a political leader who clearly demonstrated, through action, the concept of civil disobedience or passive resistance. But Gandhi left a legacy in addition to the lessons of civil disobedience through his articulation of seven social sins: politics without principle, wealth without work, commerce without morality, education without character, pleasure without conscience, science without humanity, and worship without sacrifice.

If we listen to the message Gandhi gave us, we in this House are better prepared to serve this country and build a good society.

Tokamak Project

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Verchères, QC]

Mr. Speaker, several months ago already, the Liberal government announced the projected end of its contribution of $7.2 million to the Tokamak project in Varennes.

Quebec is still recovering from the ice storm, which forced many Quebeckers to use other much more polluting forms of energy, such as wood and coal and gasoline for generators. The Government of Ontario is being forced to shut down the Candu reactors, which are considered unreliable after only 15 years in service. The Government of Ontario is contemplating sending the province back to the bygone days of coal fired generating stations, a step in the other direction from the commitment Canada made at the Rio and Kyoto conferences.

Nuclear fusion, the focus of the Tokamak project, is a clean and safe alternative to such polluting sources of energy, which continue to be funded to the tune of billions of dollars of public money from the federal government. It is therefore difficult to understand why the Liberal government insists on threatening the future of the project. Its false economies reveal its shortsightedness.