Debates of June 10th, 1998

Canadian Wheat Board Act

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland)]

That is a very reasonable request.

[Rick Borotsik, Progressive Conservative, Brandon—Souris, MB]

Mr. Speaker, thank you. It is late not only in this sitting but in the evening. As hon. members across the way have suggested that perhaps I should give it to the hon. member for Prince George—Peace River, the only thing I will give the hon. member is marks for perseverance. I will give him marks for putting together an amendment that has been discussed ad infinitum at the committee level as well as in this august Chamber. It is an amendment that would make the legislation better.

I had the opportunity to speak to the Senate amendments. I spoke in favour and somewhat reluctantly to the Senate amendments. Frankly, a lot of the amendments put forward by the Senate were debated and discussed among the opposition members during committee. I give the Senate credit for being able to put a better piece of legislation forward. It is not the best piece of legislation by any stretch of the imagination but it is a better piece of legislation because it deals with a number of very sensitive areas. It has assisted in putting forward some not terribly major or substantive changes but minor changes that would assist in this piece of legislation.

As we all recognize, the government is the government and it will pass this legislation in some fashion. It is unfortunately a fashion that will not solve any of the problems in western Canada. When the legislation passes it will probably exacerbate the issues and the problems now faced by western Canadian producers.

In fact I would suspect that with the faces in the House now, it may well mean we will be dealing with this legislation before the 36th parliament is adjourned for good. I think it will come back before the House within the next three years.

I want to speak to the amendments that were put forward. The Progressive Conservative Party will be supportive of the amendments that were put forward for the simple reason that we have in general terms put these amendments forward ourselves in the House and certainly at committee.

The first amendment, which is the president appointed by the board, is not a new amendment. That has been discussed ad infinitum and is the right way to perform governance in any corporation. When the CEO and president is responsible for the board of directors, it is an organization that is accountable. When the CEO is appointed by a third party then there is no accountability by the board of directors to that individual and quite frankly, the responsibility and accountability of that individual is compromised.

I am glad that I finally have an audience. It is nice to see, after a little bit of a faux pas, that the whip of the Liberal Party does have a bigger whip now than he perhaps had previously.

The second amendment is with respect to the auditor general but it is not something new. This particular amendment was put forward previously. The auditor general is the check and balance that the public have, but in this particular case it is a check and balance that the owners of the Canadian Wheat Board, who are the producers, want. We are continually told that the ownership of the Canadian Wheat Board is the producers but unfortunately the producers do not have the opportunity of actually finding out what it is they do own and how the Canadian Wheat Board is being operated.

The Senate amendment that came forward is a better change to the act than there was previously. Now at least the government has agreed that the auditor general should play a role in the Canadian Wheat Board. However, it did not go far enough. I spoke to this and the amendment does take it to another level which is a much better level.

The auditor general should have the opportunity and right to audit the Canadian Wheat Board. The Canadian public and the owners of the Canadian Wheat Board, the producers, should have a right to have access to what the auditor general says.

The auditor general goes into government departments and tells them they are doing the job wrong and tells them how they can do the job better. It is an operational audit, not just a financial balance sheet audit which producers are now receiving from the Canadian Wheat Board.

The amendment is a legitimate and solid amendment. It would make that particular organization much more accountable to the people who own the organization, the farmers.

We have discussed inclusion and exclusion ad nauseam, not just ad infinitum, that this is the most dangerous clause in this particular piece of legislation. I stand on record in this House in saying that if the government got rid of the inclusion clause, we would reluctantly accept the legislation that came forward.

With the Senate change to the inclusion clause, which is a minor change, it does have a protection and a check and balance. It always deals with plebiscite even in the original legislation. However, this now says that it is not just simply a decision of a minister, of the board of directors, the plebiscite, but the final resolution will have to come back to this House and be passed as legislation.

I can assure members that if there was a piece of legislation that hit the floor of this House that was going to include another commodity in the Canadian Wheat Board, there would be riots in the streets in western Canada. The producers would not allow themselves to be put in a position where they were forced to sell other commodities on a non-voluntary basis through the Canadian Wheat Board.

This is a good amendment and I congratulate the member from Peace River. It is a good amendment where it states that no inclusion clause should take place until producer participation in the Canadian Wheat Board is voluntary. It makes sense. We should not add any more commodities until it is a voluntary organization. However, add the commodities when it does become voluntary so that the organization can compete on a fair market basis with other competitors that are in the marketplace right now. It makes sense.

I hate to say it, it is the first time that the hon. member has really made sense with the four very good amendments. However, we will support the amendments as put forward. Unfortunately I believe, and I am sure the hon. member from Peace River also agrees, that these amendments, although very logical and will make a better piece of legislation, will not be approved. It is very difficult to stand and say that because they would make it better they are still not going to be approved by this government.

For the life of me, I do not know why the government will not approve these amendments. It will not. A couple of members over there are going to speak to it. They will tell us exactly why it is such terrible thing to give people a choice; it is a terrible thing to make an organization accountable; it is a terrible thing that the chief executive officer should be responsible to the board of directors. They are going to tell us why it is so awful to do that.

I am sorry that these amendments will not go any further than the vote tomorrow. These amendments, which have been tabled by almost every member of the opposition with the exception of the NDP, will come back to this House. We may not be here to deal with them, but they will come back because this legislation is flawed. It is not going to solve the problems that are out there in the marketplace. It is going to exacerbate the problem. The day after this legislation is proclaimed we are still going to have the problems that exist today.

In saying that, I will also say that with the Senate amendments and the legislation that will come forward, reluctantly we will support Bill C-4. I would much prefer to have it supported as amended but unfortunately, I do not think that is not going to happen.

This has been a very useful exercise. I know the hon. member from Peace River has given us the process, as have a number of other speakers, as to how this legislation got to the floor of this House. Even in that, I am a little disappointed that the government did not listen more to the producers that this affects.

[Wayne Easter, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of Fisheries and Oceans]

Mr. Speaker, the issue of the Canadian Wheat Board and the amendments proposed is a very serious one.

The memory of the member for Prince George—Peace River seems to be short in terms of what happened and how we got from where we were in the hearings to these amendments today.

There were very extensive hearings in western Canada by the previous Standing Committee on Agriculture and Agri-Food. Members of this House, myself included, attended hearings where extensive information was put forward by farmers. It is too bad the member was not there. He was in his own area. The standing committee put forward quite a number of amendments to the bill in terms of adopting what the producers wanted. They made the board more powerful from a farmer's point of view and catered to what farmers asked us to do.

I have said many times that without question the Canadian Wheat Board is an agency that is respected around the world. It is respected by Canadian farmers. It has done well for Canadian farmers since its institution in 1935. During difficult years in the grain industry it has been able to maximize returns back to producers.

When we compare our returns in net to those of the United States producers, we have usually and nearly always done better in maximizing net returns back to primary producers. It is not just taking a spot market here or a spot market there, but what is actually put back into the pocketbooks of farmers. The Canadian Wheat Board has been able to do well for farmers over the years.

I want to talk for a moment about some tactics by the opposition party and what it is really doing. The opposition members, especially those from the Reform Party, are playing into the hands of the major grain companies. In essence with the amendments they put forward today that is what they are doing. They would have the impact of weakening the marketing tools that western grain producers have available to them in terms of maximizing returns to themselves. They are really playing into the hands of the likes of Cargill grain and others.

I have had the opportunity to travel to the United States extensively in my experience over the years. It is interesting to talk to American farmers. Many of them wish they had an agency like the Canadian Wheat Board to give them the power that the Canadian Wheat Board has given to Canadian producers.

I want to quote what Robert Carlson of the United States national farmers union had to say before the House of Representatives agriculture committee: “From a competing farmers' perspective, we in the United States do not have a vehicle like the Canadian Wheat Board to create producer marketing power in the international grain trade. We basically sell for the best price among our local elevator companies and lose our interest in our grain after that point. Our export trade is dominated by a few—”

[An hon. member]

They get higher prices.

[Wayne Easter, Liberal, Malpeque, PE]

If the member would listen, he would realize from a competing farmer's point of view what the mistakes of the amendments the Reform Party is proposing would do to Canadian farmers.

As I was saying “Our export trade is dominated by a few large corporations who were interested in buying low and selling high”.

Maybe the members in the Reform Party just do not understand that it is the lowest price that sets the price. It is the lowest seller who sets the price in the international market. If there is one primary producer from Canada wanting to sell low, it brings down the price structure for the country as a whole. What the Canadian Wheat Board does by selling through a single desk is it tries to hold that price up and see that there is not negative competition undermining the Canadian price structure.

Mr. Carlson goes on to say “Our export trade is dominated by a few large corporations who are interested in buying low and selling high to enhance the earnings of their owners who are not generally the same people who produce the grain traded. The stated goal of free trade proponents in agriculture is to have a grain trade without national borders, without internal subsidies, without quota or tariffs and without pooling or price enhancing mechanisms like STEs. This would be a great world for grain buyers but a grim world for producers who would be fully at risk economically”.

He concludes by saying “If we destroy”—and this is what the Reform Party is trying to do through its amendments—“the various institutions that farmers in many countries have built to help themselves survive economically, we will have nothing left but producers standing bare among the ruins of structures that once empowered and protected them in a marketplace dominated by giants”.

That is where it is at. The Canadian Wheat Board does give us considerable power.

Let me come to the audit for a moment. Those members talk about wanting the auditor general to audit the books. The fact of the matter is that the Canadian Wheat Board's duly appointed external auditor chosen from the private sector is the well-respected accounting firm of Deloitte & Touche. Fully audited financial statements appear in every Canadian Wheat Board annual report.

Under Bill C-4 the producer controlled board of directors would have the power to create their own internal audit committee just like any other private company.

The Senate approved an amendment to Bill C-4 which would authorize the auditor general to conduct a one-time audit of the accounts and financial transactions of the corporation and to report back to the board of directors, which has a two-thirds majority of farmers, and the minister. That should be all that is required.

The fact of the matter is, this is the annual report, audited, as I said, by a respected auditing firm. It is 84 pages of financial transactions and information on the Canadian Wheat Board. Do we have that information on Cargill Grain? Certainly not. Do we have that transparency with some of the major grain companies? Certainly not.

It is reported in the introduction to the 1995-96 annual report of the Canadian Wheat Board that there was a performance evaluation done on the Canadian Wheat Board. The performance evaluation conducted during the 1995-96 crop year showed that Canada ranks highly with its customers in such areas as quality of product, customer service, technical support and dependability of supply.

Another study conducted by three economists showed that the Canadian Wheat Board's single desk generates an additional $265 million per year in wheat revenue for farmers, thereby enhancing Canada's competitiveness and, in fact, putting more money in producers' pockets.

[Leon Benoit, Reform, Lakeland, AB]

You have made that point before.

[Wayne Easter, Liberal, Malpeque, PE]

The member said that I had made that point before. Yes, certainly I have. The value of the Canadian Wheat Board does not seem to have sunk in with the member for Lakeland because he continues to attack it. He continues to talk about dual marketing, and there is no such thing. We cannot have single desk selling and an open market working at the same time. They are a contradiction in terms.

If we have a dual market we have an open market system and the open market system will undermine the very essence of what the single desk selling system is trying to do, which is to maximize returns to producers by preventing the negative competition that obviously the member for Prince George—Peace River supports. He obviously must support lower prices for grain producers because that is what his amendment would mean.

The Canadian Wheat Board has worked on three pillars of strength: single desk selling, price pooling and a partnership with the federal government which guarantees borrowings and initial prices.

The member for Prince George—Peace River was putting forward an amendment, I believe, to go to a full board.

I guess the key question is, would the board of directors under this new board have real power? I personally support an elected commission. They have done well over the years. We have appointed commissioners for their expertise in marketing. They have done a great sales job in China and in other countries. As I said earlier, the figures they have returned to producers are some $265 million per year over and above what they would have got if they did not have that board. I supported that system.

However, I clearly heard producers saying they wanted more control on the board. Now they are going to have that control with 10 or 15 directors. Will they have any real power? The answer is clearly yes. Contrary to what members opposite are saying, they will have real power. As in any modern day corporation, all of the powers of the Canadian Wheat Board will be placed in the hands of the directors.

The legislation clearly states that directors “shall direct and manage the business and affairs of the corporation and are vested with all the powers of the corporation”. That is what the legislation says. They are vested with the powers of the corporation.

They would certainly carry a heavy load of responsibility being in charge of a $6 billion enterprise.

The member opposite asks “What about the CEO?” The fact of the matter is, the directors will select one of their own to be chairperson. The Reform Party claims that the board should select the chief executive officer.

There is tremendous financial support from the taxpayers of Canada, from the Government of Canada, to western Canadian grain farmers through the Canadian Wheat Board, so certainly we have to have some say in terms of the appointment of the CEO.

It was backstopped last year to the tune of about $60 million, in terms of guarantees on borrowings and initial prices. That is a heavy financial commitment for Canadian taxpayers and we want to ensure that we have some say in terms of who is appointed CEO. But we also ensure in the legislation that the board will have a lot to say and will be consulted in terms of the CEO.

As I said, the directors will select one of their own to be chairperson. They will be consulted on the appointment of the president and will determine the remuneration of the president, the chair and the directors. If they do not like the CEO, they just lessen the remuneration. It is that simple.

They will oversee the Canadian Wheat Board's management and control and strategic direction.

If the directors were not satisfied with any aspect of the Canadian Wheat Board operations, they would be able to make the necessary changes. They would also be responsible for the introduction of new marketing tools such as cash trading, expedited adjustment payments and early pool cash outs.

The amendments put forward by the member for Prince George—Peace River would undermine this powerful marketing tool for western Canadian grain farmers. On this side of the House we want to stand by western Canadian grain producers. We want to ensure their prosperity in the future and one of the tools that they will have at their disposal is the new arrangements, the new powers, the new procedures granted to them by Bill C-4 which we are putting forward with the confidence that it will do the job we expect.

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland)]

On questions and comments, the hon. member for Prince George—Peace River. I would ask him to keep his intervention short.

[Jay Hill, Reform, Prince George—Peace River, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I do not know how anybody could keep their comments short after listening to that socialist rant from the hon. member.

For any of the farmers who happen to be watching the debate tonight, and I am sure there are some, that type of nonsense is the very thing that people have struggled with and fought against to ensure their freedoms throughout history. Throughout history people have had to struggle and fight to get freedoms because of that type of attitude. That is the simple fact of the matter.

Because my time is short I will just address one issue, the issue of dual marketing, the issue of freedom of choice, the issue of a voluntary wheat board.

Why is it that Ontario farmers have a fully elected board of farmers to run the Ontario Wheat Marketing Board? They have a fully elected board, not two-thirds. They are going to be able to market their grain directly out of the country themselves. They will not have to go through the Canadian Wheat Board.

Why is it that what is fair and right and works in Ontario for some reason cannot work in western Canada?

[Wayne Easter, Liberal, Malpeque, PE]

Mr. Speaker, I am not at all stung by being called a socialist.

[Jay Hill, Reform, Prince George—Peace River, BC]

That is because you are one.

[Wayne Easter, Liberal, Malpeque, PE]

I do not know about my colleagues, but I am not stung by that comment. To me that means I stand with the people and I will admit that I always have.

I remember when the member opposite was a farm leader in Peace River country, as I was a national farm leader across Canada stationed in Saskatoon, Saskatchewan. There is one thing about the organization I stood for and still stand for today as I continue to stand up for farmers in this country and the prairie producers in the west.

I cannot understand why the member opposite wants to undermine the ability of those farmers to be able to maximize their returns on the international marketplace. I just cannot understand that from the member opposite.

In terms of the Ontario Wheat Marketing Board versus the Canadian Wheat Board, the Canadian Wheat Board is given extensive backup by the Government of Canada in terms of its designated marketing area.

[Myron Thompson, Reform, Wild Rose, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I have three short questions. I would like the hon. member to know that I have been on the phone with a number of farmers in my riding who are watching CPAC tonight and they have asked me to ask these three questions and they want to hear the member's answer tonight.

Question No. 1: There is an 82 year old grain farmer in my riding who says “I fought for freedom. Why have I lost it?”

Question No. 2: One farmer says “Occasionally over the years Revenue Canada has sent in auditors to audit my books that were done by a private company. Why can't we send in the auditor general occasionally to confirm this private company?”

Question No. 3: The last question is from a young farmer who would like to know “Why aren't the Ontario and Quebec farmers rushing to get on board this wonderful Canadian Wheat Board? Why aren't they rushing to sign up if it is such a good deal?”

[Wayne Easter, Liberal, Malpeque, PE]

Mr. Speaker, in response to the question the member for Wild Rose had with regard to the 82 year old farmer who claims he fought for freedom, that is true and that is, in fact, why we are having this debate today.

There is freedom under the Canadian Wheat Board. There is freedom in this country. We had the Canadian Wheat Board advisory committee which was elected to advise the Canadian Wheat Board. In all the recent elections to that board the pro-Canadian Wheat Board candidates won. That is clearly showing that support is there from the farm community in the west in terms of electing pro-wheat board producers.

The member asked a question about Revenue Canada. In fact the Senate amendment deals with that. I personally do not see it as being necessary. As I said, the Canadian Wheat Board puts out an annual report with audited financial statements. It is very transparent, not like the Cargill grain company and other companies. All the facts are very visible.

I will quote a portion of what farmers are saying in the west. The president of the National Farmer's Union is Nettie Wiebe. I believe some members know her. She had this to say: “The vast majority of farmers want to see the Canadian Wheat Board strengthened and expanded. They want to see it safeguarded in the upcoming 1999 round of World Trade Organization talks”.

Farmers value the savings and security provided by the government guarantee on all prices. They value the government guarantee on borrowings and operations and they want to see those guarantees strengthened. That is what farmers said.

[Leon Benoit, Reform, Lakeland, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I will cover later some of the comments the member made. My question to the member for Malpeque is quite simple and straightforward. How is it that he, a dairy farmer from Prince Edward Island, thinks he knows better than farmers of Ontario who have opted clearly for a voluntary and accountable wheat board?

[Wayne Easter, Liberal, Malpeque, PE]

Mr. Speaker, at least the member for Lakeland is getting a little closer. The last time I stood in this House he called me a potato producer and now he is getting a little closer to the industry. I know what is going on in western Canada. I spent 17 years organizing in western Canada.

I have been in more farm kitchens and town halls across western Canada than he ever has. I stood in the streets demonstrating to strengthen the Canadian Wheat Board powers over the years when some governments tried to undermine it.

When a former minister of the Canadian Wheat Board, Charlie Mayer, tried to undermine the authority of the Canadian Wheat Board by taking barley out from under it illegally, I stood in the streets and fought for it. Where the heck was he when we needed to do that? I have every right as a Canadian and former farm leader to stand in this House and express my opinions and the opinions I know very well of western Canadian farmers in their support for the Canadian Wheat Board.

Nettie Wiebe, president of the farmers union said: “The vast majority of farmers want to see the Canadian Wheat Board strengthened and expanded in this country”. The amendments put forward by the member for Prince George—Peace River would undermine the very authority that farmers want strengthened and expanded.

[Dick Proctor, NDP, Palliser, SK]

Mr. Speaker, the member for Lakeland said a few minutes ago that it is an old speech he had from the member for Malpeque. If new content were required for all these speeches we would have been mute on this point about October 15 because there has been nothing new on this debate since about the first week of the debate. It has been downhill every since.

We are here tonight again in part because of the amendments that have been brought forward by the member for Prince George—Peace River. The Senate has pronounced on Bill C-4. Following hearings in western Canada earlier this spring senators have proposed three amendments and made two recommendations.

The process as amended by the Senate has now returned to the House. That the government is introducing it into the House means it approves the bill as amended or that it at least accepts its provisions otherwise it would have chosen not to reintroduce it.

The bill as amended will be debated in a package, one debate, no splitting off to discuss and vote on each amendment separately. There will be one vote only.

If the vote passes, and the government will ensure it does, the bill will then be ready for royal assent. It will not return to the other place for a further vote.

The Senate amendments include the deletion of the existing inclusion and exclusion clause. There remains a mechanism for having the inclusion or exclusion of a grain but the reality is that it leaves the initial decision in the hands of the minister. In the bill's earlier stage the decision to include to exclude would have been triggered by a farm group or groups.

It is one more indication for us that the bill does not do what the minister has been saying constantly that it was going to do which was to put grain farmers in the driver's seat. Every time they get into a narrow corner they say they have to give the control back to the government or in this case the minister. Instead of putting them in the driver's seat, as the minister responsible for the wheat board has been saying, it really puts grain farmers further into the back seat.

The minister has to consult with the board of directors and hold a producer vote on inclusion-exclusion. In addition, parliament will now have to pass specific legislation to include or exclude a grain. We believe that essentially this is a capitulation of the business and the right wing farm lobby which wanted both clauses to be deleted from the bill. It did not really want the exclusion clause deleted, but we are prepared to take that in order to get rid of the inclusion clause.

From our point of view the inclusion clause was one of the only redeeming features of the bill from the point of some wheat board supporters, including the NFU as has been noted by the previous speaker and the wheat board advisory committee.

With regard to point two of the Senate recommendations, the Senate amendments stipulate that the minister consult with the board before appointing a president. The minister did not have to do this under Bill C-4 but said he would have anyway so in reality it is not a big win.

On the auditor general and access to information point, the amendment from the Senate says that within two years of the bill coming into force the auditor general should commence an audit of the corporation. The question of the wheat board's transparency was a big issue for the Reform Party and wheat board opponents. The minister responsible for the board was reluctant to allow the auditor general in but has now obviously agreed.

The senators do not suggest that the board be open to access to information laws. They say the new members of the board will have access to all relevant information and they should decide what is and what is not made public.

In addition to those three Senate amendments there are two recommendations. Of the ten elected members of the board of directors, Saskatchewan would have five, Alberta three and Manitoba two.

Second, the regulations stipulate the contingency fund will be no larger than $30 million. This is a small step in the right direction but the CEO of the wheat board thought that the contingency fund could be as high as $575 million.

Third is that the contingency fund be separated into three accounts defined by their uses, guaranteeing initial payments, providing for losses from pool accounts, and providing for potential losses from cash trading.

The Senate also observed that farmers should vote for directors on a one farmer, one vote basis rather than on the basis of volume of grain delivered, which was a suggestion from the Reform Party last fall. There should be spending limits in elections but the senators came up with no suggestion as to what that should be.

The senators noted the intense and bitter debate around dual marketing. They took no position but said that the new board of directors could make decisions on this in future.

For our part, the federal NDP caucus opposed the bill even with the inclusion clause. We will oppose the bill with these amendments which essentially removes this clause. We would oppose the further recommendations we have heard tonight made by the member for Prince George—Peace River.

Our caucus opposes Bill C-4 because it does undermine the integrity of the wheat board and will continue to undermine farmer confidence in it. We believe farmers cannot afford the contingency fund is in the bill and they do not want it. The senators have accepted the contingency fund although they recommend it be limited to $30 million.

One of the few positive clauses from our point of view was the possibility for the board to either add or delete grains from its mandate. The decision to include or exclude a grain would have been triggered by requests from farm groups but would have required a vote by all the farmers affected.

A coalition that included the Winnipeg Commodities Exchange and other corporate groups lobbied hard against the inclusion clause. To achieve their end they said both inclusion and exclusion should be dropped and the senators have capitulated to this aggressive lobby. In place of a democratic process to include or exclude the senators offer an alternative that would make it almost impossible to ever add a grain or delete one.

The inclusion clause was one of the few redeeming features of Bill C-4 and it has now been gutted. We in this caucus have always been strong supporters of the wheat board because it works in the best interests of farmers. We must work together to make sure that the wheat board has a healthy future.

On this whole business of secrecy about the wheat board I agree very much with the comments made by the member for Malpeque. We are talking about a $6 billion a year operation. I has been accountable to parliament. Parliament has required that an external independent auditor scrutinize the wheat board's books. The auditor is Deloitte & Touche and each year the report is filed with parliament. The last audit I saw was the 1996 audit. That well recognized, well respected accounting company found the wheat board's books to be in fine shape.

It is true that the wheat board is exempt from provisions of the Access to Information Act and we feel that the overriding reason for that is customer confidentiality and the conduct of the wheat board's commercial activities. If customers big and small cannot be assured that their business dealings with the board are held in confidence they will go elsewhere with their business.

It is interesting that the same groups that frequently claim that the wheat board does not get a good enough price for grain would now like to undercut the board's ability to do just that.

The Canadian Wheat Board is probably the best grain marketing organization in the world and it has served western farmers well for more than 60 years. It is a great Canadian success story and it is accountable to the people of Canada through parliament and through an external audit.

We in this caucus have always supported the wheat board because we believe, as I have said, that it works in the best interests of farmers. We oppose Bill C-4 because it is flawed legislation and will only serve to undermine the board.

Reform opposes Bill C-4 because Reformers do not think it goes far enough, quickly enough to destroy the board faster. We are not in support of Bill C-4 and we are certainly not in support of the amendments presented tonight.

[Leon Benoit, Reform, Lakeland, AB]

Mr. Speaker, what I will comment on in my presentation are the amendment presented by the Reform agriculture critic under three headings, the ending of the wheat board monopoly, more transparency within the board, and the accountability to farmers.

I have to comment on some of the things that have been said by members from other political parties. I will start with the member from the Conservative Party who spoke earlier. He said he would reluctantly support these amendments even though he agreed with them wholeheartedly. I wonder why that would be.

I believe the reason is that member has Conservative comrades in the Senate and those Conservative senators may be pulling his string a bit. They are kind of saying support what they said. I give the member some credit that he is not just going to have his strings jerked completely by the Senate. I thought I would make that comment.

I have to make some comments about what the member for Malpeque said, and he is a dairy farmer, not a grain farmer. We have in the Reform Party over 20 farmers.

[Wayne Easter, Liberal, Malpeque, PE]

Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order. I have been accused of not being a grain producer. Besides being a dairy producer and a beef producer I also grow grain. I have also grown barley, wheat and oats. How I wish we had a Canadian Wheat Board in P.E.I.—

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland)]

As you know, mares eat oats and does eat oats and little lambs eat ivy. It is now time for the hon. member for Lakeland.

[Leon Benoit, Reform, Lakeland, AB]

My apologies, Mr. Speaker. I did not realize the member had grown any grain, but I do know he does not market any of it through the wheat board. I wonder why that is. I have not heard the member lobbying for the wheat board jurisdiction to be expanded into his province. If he did he would not last long as the member for Malpeque.

The member talked about how he was a spokesperson for a farm group. He was. I remember well something he said about 17 years as a member of the National Farmers Union. I would like to ask him a question. I know he cannot reply, which is good. I know the answer anyway. How did membership of the National Farmers Union change under his presidency and beyond? The answer is that it declined steadily, to the point that it moved from a fairly substantial farm group to a very small farm group.

The member sings the praises of the Canadian Wheat Board. I want to make a message very clear once again, which I have done I do not know how many times, because it seems like the hon. member for Malpeque and some of his comrades in the Liberal Party did not get the message. The message is that the issue never has been whether or not the wheat board functions well in terms of providing a service for farmers. I do not think that has ever been the key issue.

The key issue has been that the wheat board functions as a monopoly and farmers have no choice. That is by far the most important issue that has been taking up the debate regarding the wheat board.

Again and again, in spite of my having clarified it dozens of times in the House even while the member for Malpeque was here, he still tries to say that the debate is about getting rid of the wheat board. It is not about getting rid of the wheat board. It is about giving farmers the choice either to market through the board or somewhere other than through the board. That is the issue. I wish he would not try to distort it. The issue is choice, that it be a voluntary board.

He is someone who claims that he supports the wheat board. How on earth can he go against the original principle of the wheat board which was to be a voluntary organization? That was only changed in 1942-43 under the War Measures Act when the monopoly was put in place. It is interesting how the member conveniently forgets that fact.

I will now talk about the three issues I mentioned before. The first is the key issue, the issue of putting an end to the wheat board monopoly. That is what the debate has been about for some time in western Canada and in Ontario. It was fortunate enough to have a vote on it and choose to sweep the monopoly aside and give farmers a choice. That is what there will be in Ontario as a result of the changes made. Why that cannot happen in western Canada, why that vote will never be allowed, as is apparent under the government, I cannot answer.

We need to end the monopoly to give farmers the freedom to choose, to put in place a dual market or an opt out clause or some mechanism to give them a choice. That is what the Reform agriculture critic, the member for Prince George—Peace River, stated in his amendment. It is crucial and it is in the amendment. For that reason alone the amendment should be supported.

As to whether that is what farmers want is not an issue of debate any more. We have had the polls and we have indication after indication in every province in western Canada and in my constituency that says farmers want a choice. It is not an issue any more. I do not know why the member for Malpeque keeps saying that is somehow the issue.

The second issue is more transparency within the board. I say within the board because I believe probably a majority of western Canadian farmers want the wheat board to continue to exist. That is not the issue. Most farmers would say they want the wheat board. They think it is a useful body. They think they would use it sometimes but would like the option not to use it if they so choose. We need change within the board that will make it more transparent and more accountable. I wish members would listen to that.

The member for Prince George—Peace River, the Reform agriculture critic, dealt with the issue of transparency and accountability in his amendment, two more good reasons to support the amendment. The Conservative Party which has not exactly been supportive of Reform is to support these amendments. The member who spoke knows that western farmers want these changes. He has no doubt about it, just as I do not and just as the other 20 plus Reformers who are and have been farmers know these changes are wanted.

The Senate proposed to have the auditor general look at the books. There are a few things wrong with that. First, we do not know that the auditor general would have access to everything he wanted access to. Second, would he report to parliament? No. He would report to the minister or to the board of directors which is partly appointed.

We are waiting for a ruling on what the auditor general said, that it may not be legal. This amendment the Senate has proposed and we support may not be legal. It may be outside what the auditor general is legally mandated to do. That is another concern. Parliament gets a limited report from the auditor general which is not made public, and what have we gained? I suggest probably not very much.

Another issue of accountability to farmers is to have a completely farmer elected board of directors with real control. If that is combined with a voluntary board as it originally operated in western Canada and transparency so we know what is going on inside the board, we will have a wheat board that will be supported by western farmers. A vast majority of western farmers would support and use the wheat board under the conditions that it is voluntary, transparent and more accountable.

Those are the comments. We are going through this debate again. I do not think there is any need for me to comment further. I look forward to questions from members of the other parties.

[Myron Thompson, Reform, Wild Rose, AB]

It is a pleasure to speak probably for the last time to this issue. I will speak directly to you, Mr. Speaker. Being from the great province of Alberta you will realize that what I am saying is absolutely correct in the eyes and in the minds of the farmers, particularly those from Wild Rose with whom I have become the most familiar.

I will make one comment in regard to the speech given by the Conservative Party member. It was sort of a half-baked speech in which the member overwhelmingly supported this or that but will reluctantly vote. I am not sure what he meant.

I would like the member to know that I am quite proud of two colleagues in my caucus, one from Prince George—Peace River and the other from Portage—Lisgar. They were debating this issue a long time before this member ever reached the House. In fact there were only two members in the Conservative Party at that time. I guarantee the fellow from Sherwood did not know the first thing about a wheat board like most members on that side.

I am as concerned as many farmers in Wild Rose with whom I have been speaking on the phone for the last two or three hours. They would like to know if the Minister of Fisheries and Oceans campaigned on supporting the wheat board in his riding. I am sure the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration campaigned hard on the wheat board issue in her riding. I am sure that all the Ontario MPs campaigned very hard in their ridings.

They support the bill but it does not reflect on their constituents one iota. It reflects on western farmers and they do not care about western farmers. If they did care they would have recognized, as I recognize, that not too long ago in a very legal referendum in the province of Alberta 66% of barley producers voted in favour of a dual marketing system.

The other two Liberal members from Edmonton remember it. They sure have a funny way of showing it when it comes to voting in the House of Commons. They do not care about what the western farmer is going through. They only care about what their almighty front row bench tells them to do. The whip cracks and they will do it.

Through you, Mr. Speaker, I will speak to the fellows who I know are watching on TV tonight.

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh.

[Myron Thompson, Reform, Wild Rose, AB]

I apologize to them for the noises across the way. They do not know any better. I hope my fellow farmers will forgive them. They cannot help what they do. It is getting awfully close to summer and it is nice to direct my comments to someone I know is alive, sober and doing well. I will not pay any attention to what is going on across the way. I want the farmers in western Canada to remember that it was the voters in this Liberal group who have forced this issue upon them. None of their constituents are affected by what happens with the wheat board bill.

I talked on the phone tonight to a farmer from Cremona whose name is Gordon Reid. I know Liberals are not interested in hearing what he said but I want to quote him. He would welcome a phone call from any of the experts opposite. With unity being a major issue in the country, he asked why we are treated like second class citizens. His number is 403-637-2193. They should write it down. He would welcome a call from them any time. He has a few things to say to them on behalf of a lot of farmers. I hope they call him up right this minute to say hello.

Also they would like to know what it takes to get an effective Senate. The Senate went into the western part of the country and talked to the farmers. I heard what farmers had to say. I took in some of the sessions. All my staff took in the sessions, recorded them, took all the information. Only a bit of what we heard from farmers in western Canada is shown in the amendments from the Senate. They are concerned about the Senate.

If the member is a brave fellow like he thinks he is, I will take him out back here and we will call him together. I would not want him to lose the number.

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland)]

We are not going to have another word about heart attacks from this side. We are not going to have another word about going out back. Stay on the topic.