Debates of June 10th, 1998

Questions On The Order Paper

[Peter Adams, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to Leader of the Government in the House of Commons]

Mr. Speaker, I ask that all questions be allowed to stand.

[The Deputy Speaker]

Is that agreed?

[John Cummins, Reform, Delta—South Richmond, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I would like to bring to your attention Question No. 92 which is now past due. It is a question that relates to the use of the drug mefloquine by Canadian forces bound for Somalia in 1993. The question is of some interest not only to the many people who have written to me about this matter but also to the auditor general who is currently reviewing the processes of the health protection branch.

I would like to know when I could expect that question to be answered.

[Peter Adams, Liberal, Peterborough, ON]

Mr. Speaker, as the House knows, this week I presented well over 100 responses to petitions. In dealing with more than 1,000 petitions we are running close to a 90% response. In the matter of this question, I will follow up on it with great diligence in the coming days.

[Jim Pankiw, Reform, Saskatoon—Humboldt, SK]

Mr. Speaker, on February 24, Question No. 78 was placed on the Order Paper and on March 5, Question No. 79 was placed on the Order Paper. This is my second point of order on these questions.

I waited seven months on a production of papers motion and I have never received the information. I wonder if I am going to be stonewalled on these questions as I was on the previous motion.

The outgoing information commissioner, John Grace, said today that the Liberal culture of secrecy is worse than in the Mulroney government. Seven months for the production of papers is unacceptable. I want these questions answered. I would like the parliamentary secretary to tell me when I will receive a response to these questions.

[Peter Adams, Liberal, Peterborough, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I have made a note of Questions Nos. 78 and 79. I will not repeat my explanation. We work diligently on these matters and I will make a great effort to produce these responses.

[The Deputy Speaker]

Shall the remaining questions stand?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

Motions For Papers

[Peter Adams, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to Leader of the Government in the House of Commons]

Mr. Speaker, I ask that all Notices of Motions for the Production of Papers be allowed to stand.

[The Deputy Speaker]

Is it agreed?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

The House proceeded to the consideration of Bill C-25, an act to amend the National Defence Act and to make consequential amendments to other acts, as reported (with amendment) from the committee.

National Defence Act

[Raymond Chan, Liberal, for the Minister of National Defence]

moved that the bill be concurred in.

(Motion agreed to)

[The Deputy Speaker]

When shall the bill be read the third time? By leave, now?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[Raymond Chan, Liberal, for the Minister of National Defence]

moved that the bill be read the third time and passed.

[John Richardson, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of National Defence]

Mr. Speaker, it gives me great pleasure to open the third reading debate on Bill C-25, an act to amend the National Defence Act and to make consequential amendments to other acts.

This legislation is a comprehensive package of amendments that will strengthen the statutory framework governing the operations of the Department of National Defence and the Canadian forces.

The amendments proposed in the bill are the most extensive amendments to the National Defence Act since its enactment in 1950. Bill C-25 addresses a broad range of provisions in the National Defence Act. However, it is primarily about military justice.

The military justice system anchored in the code of service discipline is designed to promote morale, discipline and military efficiency. One must appreciate that the Canadian forces are armed forces, trained for combat, requiring a distinct system of justice. Discipline is at the heart of any efficient and effective armed force. Whether in peace or in war it spells the difference between military success or failure.

The government took action after a number of unfortunate incidents in recent years called into question the capacity of the military justice system to promote discipline, efficiency, high morale and justice. We consulted with persons within the military, with the public at large and with distinguished Canadians with specialized knowledge.

The amendments contained in Bill C-25—

[Peter Adams, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to Leader of the Government in the House of Commons]

Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order. There have been consultations among the parties and I think you will find unanimous consent for the following motion:

That the Order referring Bill S-2 to the Standing Committee on Transport be discharged and the said bill stand referred instead to a committee of the whole and that the said committee of the whole be deemed to have considered the said bill, reported progress thereon and granted leave to consider the bill at a future sitting.

[John Nunziata, Independent, York South—Weston, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I would be happy to provide my consent to these matters provided that the government does not try to sneak them through when I absent myself from the House and provided that I am consulted in advance. In order to discharge my responsibilities as a representative for the people of York South—Weston, it seems to me that before I give my consent to any motion for unanimous consent, at the very least I ought to know what I am voting on.

For the time being I am not prepared to give my consent, but if the government wishes to discuss this matter I would be happy to discuss it.

[The Deputy Speaker]

I take it, then, there is not consent.

[John Richardson, Liberal, Perth—Middlesex, ON]

Mr. Speaker, the government took action after a number of unfortunate incidents.

The amendments contained in Bill C-25, which has now had the benefit of second reading debate and the committee study, are the result of that process. With the amendments the government has followed through on the defence minister's report to the Prime Minister in March of 1997 and the reports of the special advisory group chaired by Chief Justice Brian Dickson. The government has also responded to the recommendations of the Somalia commission of inquiry.

I would like to take this opportunity to thank in particular my colleagues on the Standing Committee on National Defence and Veterans Affairs for their work in relation to Bill C-25. Twenty-one amendments, mostly of a technical nature, to improve the bill were approved by the committee.

Individual members who were already heavily burdened with other commitments made significant sacrifices to move the bill expeditiously through the committee. Their efforts have improved the bill and will ultimately assist the men and women of the Canadian forces to carry out their missions.

The Minister of National Defence appeared before the committee, as did several witnesses with experience and expertise in the areas dealt with in Bill C-25. Chief Justice Dickson, who chaired the special advisory group, and Lieutenant-General Belzile were witnesses. They fully endorsed the amendments contained in the bill. The advisory group was satisfied that the enactment of the bill into law would follow through on its recommendations and would assist the Canadian forces and its leadership in the maintenance of discipline and in the accomplishment of its task on behalf of Canada.

I would like to take this opportunity to thank Chief Justice Dickson and other witnesses for their appearances at the committee and for their contributions to this bill.

As the minister advised the committee and this House during second reading, the amendments under Bill C-25 will modernize the military justice system. The main thrusts of this bill are: to clearly define roles and responsibilities for key participants in military justice; to provide greater structure and transparency in investigations and charging; to modernize powers and procedures for service tribunals; and to strengthen oversight and review. Each of these components is a significant building block in the revitalization of military justice. During committee study each of these components was scrutinized and a variety of issues were raised and debated.

I would like to take this opportunity to make the government's position clear on a number of issues that were raised and debated in full.

During the second reading date and in committee there was discussion as to whether we should have one system of military justice for peace and another for periods of conflict. It was also suggested that we might have one military justice system for inside Canada and another for abroad.

The Canadian forces must be ready to deploy at any place in the world on a few hours' notice. The armed forces need one system that is at once workable in Canada and abroad in time of conflict or peace. Bill C-25 provides such a system. That was the advice of the witnesses at committee and of our military leadership, and the government followed that advice.

There was also discussion during second reading and in committee as to the independence of the judge advocate general and the military judges, both key factors in the military justice system. It was argued by a number of members that the JAG was still too dependent on the chain of command and that military judges should be civilians, perhaps members of the federal court, as recommended by the Somalia commission.

The JAG is appointed by cabinet on the recommendation of the minister. Bill C-25 has set out the duties the JAG must perform. It clearly states that he will be responsible to the minister for the performance of those duties. We believe we have done what is necessary to ensure the independence of the JAG.

As for military judges, Bill C-25 will provide for fixed appointments of five years. Judges will be appointed by a governor in council, as are other federal judges in the civilian system. They will have financial security and will be removable for cause only on the recommendation of an inquiry committee.

Both the supreme court and the special advisory group have endorsed the practice of appointing serving military officers with legal training to perform the function of military judges. We are convinced that all measures necessary to assure the independence of military judges have been taken.

Under the system as it now stands, the minister of defence is also a key figure and may play an active role in the routine administration of individual cases under the code of service discipline. Bill C-25 will remove the minister from such day to day administration. This will avoid the perception of interference by the minister in individual cases, reduce potential conflicts of interest and enable the minister to focus on other duties.

The investigation and charging process has been criticized for its lack of transparency and for the broad discretion it gives the commanding officers. A commanding officer may make final decisions concerning not only minor offences, but also serious and sensitive offences that may implicate interests well beyond his or her individual unit.

Bill C-25 will remove from the commanding officer the power to dismiss charges and will provide a clear statutory basis for tailoring the jurisdiction of summary trials to those minor offences necessary for the maintenance of internal unit discipline. At the same time, the amendments will ensure the valuable and essential participation of the chain of command in the process.

The committee heard testimony from Colonel Mitchell, the Base Commander at CFB Petawawa, and Lieutenant-General Belzile, now retired and former commander of the army. These witnesses underlined the necessity for commanders, who are responsible to the chain of command and to the people of Canada for the accomplishment of missions assigned by the government, to have the necessary tools to retain control over discipline in their units. Both witnesses were clear in their testimony to the committee that the reduced powers and jurisdictions resulting from Bill C-25 would not prevent commanders from doing their job.

As for the summary trial process, the minister indicated during second reading debate and in committee that reform is already well under way. Amendments to the Queen's regulations and orders enacted on November 30, 1997 restrict the jurisdiction of summary trials to more minor offences that affect internal unit discipline. They also grant accused persons the right to elect trial by courts martial in all but the most minor cases.

One feature of the summary trial reform that was discussed at length in committee was the requirement to provide commanding officers with more comprehensive training in their military justice duties and responsibilities and to have them certified as qualified to conduct summary trials.

The minister made it clear to committee members that we are committed to certification training for the conduct of summary trials. It is now under development and we hope that the training will get under way in the fall. Once it is in place we will require officers to be certified as qualified prior to conducting summary trials.

There was concern in the committee regarding the requirement to be able to award the punishment of detention at summary trials and the committee sought direct testimony on that point.

Chief Justice Dickson told the committee that it was vital that the commanding officer retain the power of detention. General Belzile also told the committee that it was essential for the commanding officer to retain the option of awarding detention at summary trials. While retaining the punishment of detention at summary trials, it has nevertheless been reduced from 90 to 30 days. The automatic permanent reduction in rank to private has been eliminated. The members will be paid as privates while serving detention.

The government has thus strengthened compliance with the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms and detention will remain an effective tool for commanding officers to use to maintain unit discipline and operational effectiveness.

In debate and in committee there has been reference to a two-tiered justice system. It is the goal of the government and this bill to promote equal treatment of Canadian forces members under the code of service discipline, regardless of their rank or sex. Several initiatives have been taken to ensure members are treated equally, regardless of sex or rank, and to provide treatment that is comparable to that under the civil justice system.

The code of service discipline procedures have been reviewed to ensure that any departures from civilian standards are militarily necessary and changes have been made where they are not. For example, at courts martial military judges will now sentence those convicted of service offences. In addition, punishment of hard labour and the death penalty will no longer be available as a result of changes under Bill C-25.

With respect to sexual equality, men and women in the Canadian forces must be able to contribute equally and work together in an atmosphere of trust. The extension of jurisdiction by courts martial over sexual assault offences that occur in Canada serves this purpose.

The establishment of the independent national investigation service will ensure that such offences are promptly reported and fully investigated. Permitting courts martial to try sexual assault offences committed in Canada will ensure that such offences are dealt with promptly and will demonstrate the government's commitment to treat sexual violence against members as a serious issue and to foster equality in the Canadian forces.

Disciplinary and general courts martial panels which previously were composed of officers only will now include warrant officers and above where a non-commissioned member is being tried. This better reflects the spectrum of individuals responsible for command and discipline in the Canadian forces. Mandatory accompanying punishments have been removed, eliminating a number of differences between ranks and the application of punishments.

For example, non-commissioned members but not officers were automatically reduced in rank when sentenced to imprisonment. Under the bill the automatic reduction in rank will not be removed.

Bill C-25 also demonstrates the government's commitment to strengthened oversight and review mechanisms for the Canadian forces and the department. In committee it was suggested that there be a requirement for oversight by the inspector general.

Business Of The House

[Peter Adams, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to Leader of the Government in the House of Commons]

Mr. Speaker, there have been further consultations and I think you would find unanimous consent for the following motion:

That the Order referring Bill S-2 to the Standing Committee on Transport be discharged and the said bill stand referred instead to a committee of the whole and that the said committee of the whole be deemed to have considered the said bill, reported progress thereon and granted leave to consider the bill at a future sitting.

[The Deputy Speaker]

Does the hon. parliamentary secretary to the government House leader have unanimous consent of the House to propose this motion?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[The Deputy Speaker]

The House has heard the terms of the motion. Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion?