Debates of June 10th, 1998

The House resumed consideration of the motion.

Information Commissioner

[Bill Blaikie, NDP, Winnipeg—Transcona, MB]

Mr. Speaker, I would like to begin my remarks on the appointment of the new information commissioner by saying a word of thanks and appreciation to the outgoing commissioner, Dr. John Grace, for the work that he has done and certainly for the final report that he issued which contained a great many recommendations as to how access to information in Canada could be improved.

The matter of who is to be appointed the new information commissioner has been developing over the last few weeks. There are a few issues that I would like to set straight with respect to what has occurred over the last few weeks in terms of the information commissioner appointment process, how Mr. Reid's name came to be considered and how it came to pass that we are now considering his nomination by the government for information commissioner.

Before Mr. Reid's name came up the government had brought forward to House leaders the name of a Ms. Gusella who, as I understand it from being present at the meetings, said that she was prepared and in fact thought it was a good idea to go before a committee of parliament. However she wanted to know beforehand whether any of the parties disapproved of her nomination. If there was not this sort of prior approval she did not want her name to stand and subsequently would not want to go before the committee.

As it turned out, upon consultation people did have concerns about Ms. Gusella's nomination, not about her competency or her character or anything like that but just about whether or not, given her particular history, she was the appropriate person for information commissioner. I do not think it is correct to say her name was withdrawn. Her name was never put forward.

Subsequent to that it came to my attention that the government was considering Mr. Reid and that Mr. Reid had been suggested to the government, not by the NDP and not by me but by someone else.

At a House leaders meeting I inquired as to whether or not it was true that they were considering Mr. Reid and, if they were, would they agree to allow Mr. Reid to go before a committee of parliament and allow members of parliament to form their own views of Mr. Reid. Not all members of parliament were in the position that I was personally, that is to say in a position of being able to remember Mr. Reid having sat in the House with him from 1979 to 1984.

Somehow my suggestion that if the government were considering Mr. Reid I would certainly be open to having him come before a committee to be questioned and examined by members of parliament has developed into a spin earnestly repeated on the floor of the House only a couple of hours ago by both the government House leader and the official opposition House leader that in some way or other Mr. Reid was nominated or put forward by myself and by the member for Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough. This is simply not the case. I regret that this is so. I regret that even Mr. Reid has this perception. I saw a quote from him to that effect.

It is true that I inquired of the government whether or not it was considering him and suggested that it have him go before the committee. It is true that given my recollections of Mr. Reid's work in the House I was favourably disposed to the idea of having him come before other members of parliament and being considered for the post.

What happened was that the minute we asked that question the government said “Isn't that a terrific idea” and at 9 o'clock the next day Mr. Reid was before the committee. It is quite a stretch to imagine that the government was not considering this before I asked about it when he was before the committee the very next morning. There was no opportunity for what I would think was due process.

There should have been a day or two between the discussion of the House leaders and some notice that Mr. Reid was to appear before the committee so that groups concerned about Mr. Reid's appointment for a variety of reasons would have had an opportunity to communicate with members of parliament and with members of the committee who were to have discussions with Mr. Reid. This did not happen. As I understand, Mr. Reid acquitted himself well at the committee meeting by all accounts from everyone who was at the meeting. That is not the point. The point is that the process was not adequate.

I agree with the Reform Party when it says that surely the time has come, if these positions open up, for them to be bulletined, advertised or made public in some way so that the wealth of Canadians who may be qualified for such positions actually put their names forward, instead of names kind of bubbling up through the bureaucratic or the old boys parliamentary network or whatever it is, all of which is not evil in itself. It is just not adequate in a day and age when people should know that such positions are open and how to put their names forward.

In the case of the information commissioner it is a question of the person being an officer of parliament. We could have applications. People appointed by each of the parties could sit down, make a short list and bring it before a committee. They could make another short list and eventually arrive at someone who was the best person for the job. This would be far too rationale a process for anything parliamentary. I think that is too bad.

We have made some progress. The fact that Mr. Reid came before the committee, albeit in an inadequate way, was nevertheless a step forward. I commend the government for that tiny, baby step forward. It needs to go a lot further than that. It cannot be the kind of rush job it has been.

I regret very much the perception that somehow the government was just sitting there with an empty mind, not thinking about John Reid at all. Then along came the NDP and the Tories who asked “What about John Reid”. “Isn't that a wonderful idea? It never occurred to us before”. Then the government went on to kind of give the impression that it originated on the opposition side when we know that the government was considering it after it having been suggested by whomever.

I wanted to clear that up. I also want to put on record that we have concerns about Mr. Reid's appointment. One things that came to light in the days subsequent to his name being bandied about was his association with the nuclear industry.

Members who know me will know that I do not think anybody in the House has a stronger record of opposition to nuclear energy and nuclear power than me. I have had many private members' bills on this issue, some of which came to a vote. In the last weeks I raised questions in the House about the sale of Candu reactors and my opposition and the opposition of my party to them. However, having said that, I still do not think that association with the particular industry is prima facie evidence of some kind of character flaw.

We can disagree about the role of nuclear reactors and nuclear energy without making an ad hominem argument about the adequacy or the values someone would bring to a particular job. It is a legitimate concern on the part of a great many people that it is not just any industry, that it is the nuclear industry.

I have dealt with the nuclear industry for over 19 years in the House and before when I was an activist against nuclear power and the nuclear arms race. It is one of the most secretive cultures in the world. Trying to find out anything about the nuclear industry is like pulling teeth. It will bury you in inconsequential information. It will fill your home with documents and memos which would take the rest of your life to read. To find the one thing you want to find out, the one thing that is absolutely critical, is very difficult.

Mr. Reid has an obstacle to overcome. He has to prove himself to those who are suspicious of him because of his former association that he can rise above the culture that he was immersed in and be a good information commissioner. I hope he will pleasantly surprise those people who are concerned about his nomination and about his appointment. I hope the concerns that many of my colleagues and I have about that association will come to be seen to be unfounded.

Only time will tell and it is important for us to put those concerns on the record.

[Ken Epp, Reform, Elk Island, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask a question of the member who just spoke.

He indicated it was a misrepresentation that the name had been put forward by him and the member for Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough. Then a few minutes later he said it was true that they did.

If the member does not mind, I would like him to explain the mechanism. I am also terribly curious about who precisely he put the name forward to.

[Bill Blaikie, NDP, Winnipeg—Transcona, MB]

Mr. Speaker, I do not believe I said what the hon. member attributes to me. I did not say that we did not and then we did. I said that we did not.

I explained the context in which I raised Mr. Reid's name in a House leaders' meeting because I was under the impression that the government was considering him and I wanted to know whether or not it was willing to send him before a committee. That is the context in which I raised his name.

[Peter MacKay, Progressive Conservative, Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough, NS]

Mr. Speaker, I am very pleased to participate in the debate. I am pleased as well to follow the hon. member for Winnipeg—Transcona as I often find myself in debate speaking on the heels of his remarks.

He has quite fairly and accurately set out or chronicled the events that led to the appointment we have before the House today. I do not intend to delve into any great detail other than to add that I think his chronology is quite accurate. I want the record to show that the Progressive Conservative Party put forward the name of Mr. Reid but in a very informal way.

It is important to note this was not a set in stone process. Suffice it to say the name was very well received and received in a very timely way by the government. As the hon. member mentioned, the timing of his appearance before the committee leads one to believe or at least be somewhat suspect that it was not a new name or the suggestion was not the pivotal factor in the government's decision to bring forward his name.

Be that as it may, we have before us an individual who is obviously very qualified, an individual who will fulfil the very important role of information commissioner. The information commissioner would be an officer of parliament and not of the government. That is a key point. The commissioner will be our commissioner, the commissioner of the Canadian people, the commissioner of this place, this House, not the government's commissioner. In light of that, I was pleased that I was a part of the consultation and part of a process that resulted in this nomination being before the House today.

Earlier speakers have touched upon the fact that we have seen an improvement in the process of the selection of the information commissioner. Although it is not perfect and some flaws still exist, it is an improvement. The hon. member used the expression of baby steps. It is perhaps a little more than that. At least now we have a transparent process that allows members of a committee to directly question the nominated candidate. I refer to him as a nominated candidate but it was really not that formal.

This name came forward as the result of a conversation between myself and the government House leader. I presume a similar conversation took place between the hon. member for Winnipeg—Transcona and the government House leader. The process moved along somewhat differently than it had in the past where the Prime Minister, on the initiative of a party suggestion I would assume, appointed the commissioner.

I do not intend to go through the entire chronology of what happened but there is a necessity in this debate to have a little review of the history of the information act itself. It is a proud history with respect to the involvement of the Progressive Conservative Party.

The Access to Information Act is generally acknowledged as having been sired by the late Ged Baldwin who sat as a Progressive Conservative caucus member from the district of Peace River. Mr. Speaker, you may remember the late Ged Baldwin. Mr. Baldwin began his campaign for the freedom of information legislation in 1969.

The Progressive Conservative government of the Right Hon. Joe Clark introduced the first government sponsored bill for access to information in 1979. Mr. Speaker, you would certainly recall that, being the student of parliament I know you are. The bill, which did not satisfy all of Mr. Baldwin's wishes, did go a long way to setting up what we now have before the House in the form of an information commissioner. Despite the casualty, the unfortunate fall of Mr. Clark's government, this initiative was continued by subsequent governments. The present statute was sponsored and passed by the Hon. Francis Fox in 1982 and was proclaimed into law in 1983.

A fourteen year struggle preceded the point we are at today. It was a struggle to forge what Mr. Baldwin called an unholy alliance of parliament and press and the public versus the bureaucracy. Mr. Baldwin saw the existing statute as a beginning. He placed great faith in the commissioner of parliament to improve the existing law.

After 15 years of experience with the 1983 law, it is generally recognized that the law needs review and improvement. The act was drafted before the explosion of computers, including the appearance of computers even here in the Chamber, and electronic mail which is routinely in use in parliament, and the universal use of the delete button that accompanies every computer. There are certainly new conditions, new physical parameters, electronic and technological advances that perhaps even Mr. Baldwin with his great foresight and knowledge of the use of information could not have foreseen in those bygone years.

These are important issues for us in parliament to address today. I acknowledge in the name of Mr. Reid which is before the House today, that who is better to advance this cause than a former parliamentarian? Who better to understand the needs of parliament itself than an individual who has been elected, a person who understands the system and how parliament works with the expectations and the pressures that come to bear?

I am pleased and state uncategorically that we in the Conservative Party support the nomination and the affirmation of Mr. Reid to this position. The Hon. John Reid has demonstrated an ability to achieve results within parliament. This will be very important in his new role as commissioner and certainly very important in the task he will take on to bring parliament into the 21st century.

He has a record of integrity and independence, a person who has shown he is not afraid to stand up for what he believes in when called upon to do so. He has told prime ministers and party leaders that they were wrong on occasion, perhaps at a cost to his own political career. He does bring a spirit of commitment to access to information, as well as a distinguished history of parliamentary service. I think this will serve parliament well.

Equally important, Mr. Reid is prepared to address the culture of secrecy that sometimes surrounds this place and is ever present in our public service. This challenge is formidable in the sense that we know a great deal of bureaucracy exists. There are times when the information is so extensive and massive it seems it is almost impossible to sort through the volume of information.

As the reports of the previous commissioner have pointed out, it is going to be a very challenging task that awaits Mr. Reid.

In closing, I acknowledge the diligent work of the retired commissioner John Grace. Mr. Grace served the Canadian people well, served the post to which he was appointed very well, and we are grateful to him. We in the Progressive Conservative Party and all Canadians are grateful to the yeoman service he did as the information commissioner. We are content that his vigorous efforts will be continued and strengthened by the appointment of Mr. Reid.

To put some finality on my remarks, I add the names of the caucus of the Progressive Conservative Party of Canada to the list of previous speakers wishing Mr. Reid Godspeed and congratulations for his well-deserved appointment. We hope that he will bring great honour and integrity to his new post.

[John Bryden, Liberal, Wentworth—Burlington, ON]

I am pleased to have an opportunity to make a few comments.

One of the reasons Mr. Reid's name moved forward so quickly—and I do not know this through any inside knowledge—is that it was very obvious to many of us on this side that he is a very good candidate. It is not surprising that in informal conversation when his name came up, leadership on this side immediately latched on to it.

In speaking of Mr. Reid and the role that stands before him, it is not just a matter of the media and the public versus the bureaucracy. We must appreciate that the government has to keep some secrets very necessarily itself.

What we are looking at in this new access commissioner is somebody who will gain the confidence of both parties. It is not just a matter of acting for the media and acting for MPs, backbench MPs like myself or opposition MPs, it is also a matter of gaining the confidence of the bureaucrats who are charged with looking after the interests of the nation. It is not a matter of advocacy or of confrontation; what we really want is someone in that position who can win the confidence of both sides and make the necessary decisions that are ultimately in the national interest. In Mr. Reid we have just such a person.

I would also like to comment on Mr. Grace. Mr. Grace has been a superb access commissioner. The reports over the past few years have been superlative looks at the operation of government and the need for openness. As Mr. Grace steps down, we are on the threshold of a new era of access to information.

I hope, as with my colleague opposite, there will be new legislation or amended legislation coming before the House.

I hope my colleague will support that legislation. I ask him whether he or his party is prepared to support some of the private members' initiatives that are currently before the House on access to information.

[Peter MacKay, Progressive Conservative, Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough, NS]

Mr. Speaker, I acknowledge the eloquent remarks that seem to be a common theme with respect to this subject. I think they reflect the non-partisan nature which this process has unfolded.

Certainly Mr. Reid has a lot of the qualities that I think all of us are looking for when it comes to filling this important post.

The question itself is as to the support of the Progressive Conservative Party for individual private members' bills and legislation that is currently before the House. Without knowing the specifics of that particular type of legislation, I am certainly not in a position to wholeheartedly embrace any legislation without having first had the benefit of reading it. Depending on each particular bill, we would have a critic portfolio that would be assigned to look at that bill.

Any legislation tied to the Office of the Information Commissioner in the furtherance of openness and disclosure and transparency that is going to lead to greater confidence in government and greater confidence perhaps in the bureaucracy that surrounds us in this place would certainly be encouraged and supported by members of the Conservative Party.

In light of the debate in the last few days, we have seen that there needs to be a little bit of introspection as to the role not only of government but of backbenchers and opposition and the way in which we interact in this place. The information commissioner may very well be called upon in very short order to be an integral part of that process, when it comes to the interaction and the exchange of information that takes place between all members and other branches of the particular parliamentary precinct that we work.

I thank the hon. member for his comments. I thank the Chair for its indulgence.

[Gordon Earle, NDP, Halifax West, NS]

Mr. Speaker, the hon. member mentioned during his speech the impartial nature of the information commissioner's job. As a former ombudsman and as a person who was involved with responsibilities for freedom of information, I would certainly concur that is one of the most important elements of the information commissioner's job.

The information commissioner must not only be impartial, but must be seen as being impartial. That is very important. I would echo the concerns that were expressed by our House leader in terms of the background of the individual being chosen. It is crucial that the individual must be able to show very clearly impartiality in dealing with these matters.

As a former colleague of Mr. John Grace, I would like to add my words of commendation in terms of the job that he performed in his role as information commissioner.

[Peter MacKay, Progressive Conservative, Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough, NS]

Mr. Speaker, I thank my colleague, the NDP member from the province of Nova Scotia. I congratulate him on the work that he has done prior to his arrival in parliament. I know that he is going to continue to do good work on behalf of his constituents.

With respect to the information commissioner, he has a depth of knowledge that may be of benefit to Mr. Reid at some point. I am sure that if he does not know Mr. Reid, in very short order he will become acquainted with him.

Again I think that the non-partisan commentary that has taken place in the last moments of debate here and throughout the process of selection of Mr. Reid is a very good and a very refreshing start. It is something that we can learn from, to rise above the partisan nature when it comes to these types of appointments.

I am sure the hon. member would agree that we are very hopeful and encouraged that the information commissioner role filled by Mr. Reid will continue in that same vein. Although he once wore the same red uniform of the government, I do not suspect that this is going to factor into his decision making. He has proven himself to be a man of great integrity and a man who realizes the importance of arm's length from government when it comes to the dissemination of information.

[Ken Epp, Reform, Elk Island, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I did not expect to rise in debate today because my House leader gave a fairly good summary of our stand on this particular issue. However, because I have been involved since I first came here in 1993 with access to information and the integrity of government I decided to say a few words. I was what was called for a while the ethics critic for our party. I was involved in the joint House of Commons-Senate committee, as you were, Mr. Speaker, in looking at a code of conduct for MPs and senators.

I have just had so much to think about on this topic that I thought I would take the time to share it. Normally I may not have, but because of the great motion that was passed by all the Liberals over there I have another nine hours to work today because we are going to be sitting until 4 o'clock in the morning. So I thought that I might as well make some good use of that time by sharing some of my ideas.

I would first like to talk a bit about the process because I think this is where the greatest flaw is in the appointment of a new information commissioner and, I suppose, generally in these positions. A phrase that I have heard is very appropriate here: “We need to cast the net widely in order to get the best possible candidates”.

It is the same as with the contract just recently given to Bombardier. There was no tender. We have the government ministers telling us that it was a great deal for Canadian taxpayers, but we do not know if it is the best deal because others did not have an opportunity to bid on it. Even though there may be some validity to the argument given, it still has its limitations because it was very exclusive.

I feel the same way about the appointment of the access to information commissioner. There was a name put forward and after a very short time that name was withdrawn because on a little bit of scrutiny there were certain tests that were not followed.

This was the process that was followed. A person's name was put forward and I think the government thought that maybe it would just be able to slide this through and move a motion or maybe a report that would be concurred in and, bingo, it would be done. However, it happened that there were certain facts drawn out and in a swirl of controversy the name was withdrawn.

Another name was then put forward, admittedly by a completely different process. That particular individual seems to have the approval of all of the parties. I know our House leader for the Reform Party gave Mr. Reid a good mark in his interview.

Through my experience in personnel management and being involved in interviewing and hiring people over the years, I found that even occasionally when we did in depth interviews with a number of candidates, checked references, looked at work experience and everything like that, in the end we may not have made the best decision. Most of the time we did, but sometimes we could have done better. I think that principle applies here as well. We should have cast the net wider and interviewed two, three or four people and then chosen from among them the one best suited.

I think that is all I will say about the process. Now I want to put out a personal challenge to Mr. Reid because it appears that in a very short time there will be a vote taken in the House and he will get the approval of the House and be appointed by the House as an officer of parliament.

I want to challenge him personally in this way. This might be a strange venue in which to do this since he is not here right now, but I am sure he will read this. It will impinge directly on his function and his work. Perhaps we will make sure that he gets a copy of Hansard .

First, the big challenge is to be fair. I understand that he is going to try to do that. However, there is going to be a great deal of pressure on him because he deals with situations in which there is conflict. The information commissioner is not involved if one of us in the opposition, or a backbench MP, or someone from the media puts in an access to information request. If that request is met forthwith in a timely manner, then the information commissioner is not involved because the process worked. Most of the time he will be involved when there is a conflict, when a member of the press, one of the aforementioned people, or a citizen who wants to know something about what is happening in a certain department of government puts in a request and for some reason that person is given the runaround. Perhaps delay tactics will be used. Perhaps there will be an excessive amount of white-out. Perhaps there will be letters saying that the information was not available or that it was not kept. That is when that commissioner becomes involved. He now needs to arbitrate. His job will be, in a way, to act as an ombudsman for the truth because that is what we are after. That is what Canadians have a right to know. That is what government, that is what business, that is what personal ethics are all about. They are about dealing in the truth.

I want to give him a personal challenge on behalf of our party, and hopefully on behalf of all parties in parliament, to be excruciatingly fair so that when he does come to those situations he will evaluate them based on the principles and laws involved. Is the person entitled to this information? If so, he will clearly and quickly order that it be granted. If it is not available, his explanations will be clear and defensible so that there is a build up of trust in that office and an increasing credibility among Canadians on how government works.

I have another challenge for the new commissioner, soon to be appointed by this House, and that is to avoid even the slightest appearance of favouritism toward the Liberal Party. I say that because he is a well known Liberal. He was a Liberal member of parliament. He was a Liberal cabinet minister. He has the Liberal label. For the next two or three years, unless the Liberals all walk out of the House and there is a change of government, we will have a Liberal government. Simply because he has that label he needs to be extra careful. I predict, almost with certainty, that in the next few years there will be charges that he is protecting his Liberal pals.

I see the Liberal member opposite shaking his head and I have a tendency to agree with him. I have a tendency to think that this is a man who will be fair. I am ready to give him the maximum benefit of the doubt. I am going to give him a fair chance. But he needs to be very careful because he has that label.

He assured us that he has no close companionships within the Liberal Party and that he will be fair. He told us that in the interview. I attended the interview that was held by the committee. It was refreshing to hear of his readiness to state that he would be fair.

I want to both warn him of the possible coming accusations and tell him that he needs to be doubly sure that he does not favour the Liberal government because, as the ethics commissioner is sometimes accused, he will simply be called part of the damage control team.

I have a few specific examples in which we were involved with access to information where information was not given which should have been given. We were not able to get it. We went through all the channels. I am not going to bring it up again because I dealt with it at length in the previous parliament. Suffice it to say that we asked for information and what we got were blank pieces of paper with a stamp on them. I do not remember the number now, but it was the number of a section of the act under which this information was withheld.

The information was withheld because it was personal. It should not have been on that document because the personal attachment to the individual involved should not have entered the government documents.

There was a conflict. We argued, I believe correctly, that having put that information into a public document it should have been available to us, notwithstanding that it was personal in nature. Our argument was that it should not have been there.

How will we get answers to that type of thing? I argued at the time and I will argue again that when there is such a conflict the way to answer it is to bare the truth. I remember being interviewed by the media on this subject. I said that the only thing that would clear up the controversy, which was not done, would be to simply lay it all out on the table and say “Here are the facts. Here is everything. What else do you want to know?” That is how we should deal with our government and departmental offices.

There has to be an accessibility to information that is clear, that does not attempt to befuddle the person who wants to get the information, that does not attempt to withhold the information and that does not attempt to deceive or to throw off track the road to the truth.

I have done two things in my little talk. I guess my role as a teacher and an instructor for many years is coming out. First you say what you are going to say and then you review it. I have done two things. I have talked about the process. I sincerely hope the government hears that message and, for functions like this, makes sure that the process is one of openness. It should be one where anybody can apply. A short list should be developed and then they can nail it down to the best candidate, the person best qualified for the job.

The second thing I talked about was the personal challenge to truth and openness.

I would like to see the information commissioner, the auditor general, the ethics counsellor and all such positions gain and earn an integrity in their own right where they are truly seen to be independent from the front bench of the government, particularly the Prime Minister, so that the people of this country can have the highest level of trust in their government. That is what the Liberals promised in the last two elections. It is slow in being delivered. We would like it to happen more quickly.

[John Bryden, Liberal, Wentworth—Burlington, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I want to express my appreciation for the remarks of the member for Elk Island because, as it happens, from the last parliament I remember the interest he expressed in the Access to Information Act and the initiatives he made.

He touches on a point that I do not think we can emphasize enough in this House and that is for opposition MPs, for backbench MPs, for MPs to do their jobs well, which is to question government whether on this side or on that side. But to question the operation of government we must have legitimate access to the documents of government.

We cannot have accountability without transparency. We are all agreed on this side of the House that we are about to make the correct move in the person we are putting forward as the new access to information commissioner.

I know the member for Elk Island will agree with me that surely the next step is to seriously review the current Access to Information Act because it has become old. It has become obsolete. There are too many ways to get around it.

I suggest to the member for Elk Island that the problems he has cited as examples in his remarks on his experiences with the Access to Information Act had nothing to do with the current commissioner or the past commissioner. They had to do with inadequacies in the act. The bureaucracy in interpreting the act interpreted the act honestly and correctly, we presume. Nevertheless the member opposite did not get the information he needed to have to ask questions in the House which I presume were relevant to all Canadians.

Does the member not agree that it is in the interest of everyone in the House, on the government benches, the front benches, the backbenches and in every opposition seat, to move now to review, to correct and to renew the Access to Information Act?

[Ken Epp, Reform, Elk Island, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I practised succinct speech for many years, as I said, being an instructor and having to communicate in hopefully a clear manner. I have great difficulty now in the role of a politician in trying to give a long answer to the question the member asked. The answer is yes, I agree.

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland)]

Is the House ready for the question?

[Some hon. members]

Question.

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland)]

Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[An hon. member]

On division.

(Motion agreed to)

Mi'Kmaq Education Act

[Lucienne Robillard, Liberal, for the Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development]

moved that Bill C-30, an act respecting the powers of the Mi'kmaq of Nova Scotia in relation to education, be read the third time and passed.

[Bernard Patry, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development]

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to address Bill C-30, an act respecting the powers of the Mi'kmaq of Nova Scotia in relation to education, at third and final reading.

This is truly a historic piece of legislation. Indeed, it is the first time since Confederation that jurisdiction over education is transferred from the federal government to First Nations, where it belongs.

First, I want to thank the hon. members for supporting Bill C-30 at second reading. Education may be the single most important investment a society can make, and members from all parties recognized the need for young First Nations members to gain the knowledge and skills required in the new economy.

It was also agreed that education should be the responsibility of the parents and communities whose children are going to school.

I also want to pay tribute to the Mi'kmaq of Nova Scotia for taking this unprecedented initiative, which could open the door to many similar agreements with First Nations throughout Canada.

Participating Mi'kmaq communities have been determined, patient and committed in negotiating the terms of the transfer. Their efforts were guided by a single goal, that of ensuring a better future for their children.

I also want to thank the Standing Committee on Aboriginal Affairs and Northern Development for its thorough study of Bill C-30. Many witnesses appeared before the committee and most of them supported the bill and advocated its speedy passage. After thoughtful discussion of it, the committee returned Bill C-30 to the House.

Passage of this bill is essential to the implementation of the final agreement on the transfer of education signed by Canada and nine Mi'kmaq First Nations in February 1997. I would like to describe for you the main points of the bill and indicate their importance for the Mi'kmaq of Nova Scotia and native peoples in other parts of Canada.

I found the comments of one witness who appeared before the standing committee to be particularly insightful in explaining the impact of the proposed legislation. Chief Lindsay Marshall spoke on behalf of the Mi'kmaq band that opted into the transfer agreement.

What struck me most about Chief Marshall's presentation was this simple statement:

For many years everyone except Aboriginal people themselves have been making decisions about Aboriginal education.

In a nutshell that is what we are trying to change with Bill C-30. We are paving the way for the Mi'kmaq and other aboriginal peoples to exercise real jurisdiction over education and not just administrative control.

Bill C-30 will begin to reverse the historic trend of taking local responsibility and accountability away from first nations. By supporting the legislation we can recognize the capacity of aboriginal people to take control over their own lives.

Through Bill C-30 the government will delegate jurisdiction for on reserve elementary and secondary education to the nine participating Mi'kmaq communities. These communities will also assume jurisdiction for post-secondary funding support for eligible residents living on and off reserve. Under the terms of the final agreement the Mi'kmaq must also provide equivalent education to non-members living on reserves. The level and quality of education must ensure that students can successfully transfer to any other education system in Canada.

To exercise this jurisdiction each Mi'kmaq first nation will establish its own education authority with a constitution that outlines its responsibilities, accountabilities and reporting structure or process for passing laws in a transparent appeals process.

Bill C-30 also provides for the establishment of a new Mi'kmaq corporation that will provide collective services to the nine first nations such as curriculum development, culture and language initiatives, and special education.

This transfer initiative was in response to a recommendation by the Royal Commission on Aboriginal Peoples that the First Nations be given greater control over education. It will consolidate the communities involved, in keeping with the objectives set out by the government in “Gathering Strength”, our response to the report by the royal commission.

With the delegation of this jurisdiction, those First Nations participating will be able to set up the school curriculum for their children. Courses and programs offered will reflect the customs and traditions of the Mi'kmaq, and, in some cases, will be available in the Mi'kmaq language.

The First Nations will preserve their history as they prepare their students for the future. The result will doubtless be better education for Mi'kmaq children and youth.

I would remind my fellow members of the broad public consultation that was held at each stage of the negotiation of the final agreement on the transfer of education. In fact, this transfer initiative was inspired by the public consultations.

Over the five years of negotiations required to achieve a final agreement, there has been a constant bilateral exchange of information with the Mi'kmaq of Nova Scotia. Literally dozens of public meetings were held in the 13 Mi'kmaq communities of Nova Scotia. Presentations were made in First Nations schools, in academic circles, at the Nova Scotia Association of School Boards and before provincial education officials.

Information sheets were distributed to Mi'kmaq households, and information booths were set up at annual pow-wows and other events. Several stories on the education transfer initiative were published in The Micmac-Maliseet Nations News , the Nova Scotia aboriginal newspaper.

At the conclusion of the consultations a community ratification process resulted in nine Mi'kmaq communities opting to proceed with the transfer at this time. Any of these first nations may opt out of the final agreement in the future. Similarly the other four nations may participate in the legislation by having their names added to the schedule of Bill C-30 subject to a similar ratification process.

The Government of Nova Scotia has been consulted extensively on the Mi'kmaq education initiative dating back to early 1994. The provincial government confirmed its support for the transfer by signing a tripartite agreement with Canada and the Mi'kmaq chiefs in December 1996. Provincial officials were also consulted during the drafting of Bill C-30 as were the Mi'kmaq chiefs. As a result the legislation before us today meets the needs and expectations of all parties to the transfer process.

The government has received numerous letters of support for Bill C-30. For example, the presidents of St. Francis Xavier University, Saint Mary's University, Mount Saint Vincent University and the University of King's College have all endorsed the transfer as have the Nova Scotia Agricultural College, the Nova Scotia School Boards Association and the Most Reverend Colin Campbell, Bishop of Antigonish.

The Assembly of First Nations has written to the Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development to express support for this historic transfer of jurisdiction. The AFN sees Bill C-30 as a significant step in restoring Mi'kmaq governance. Most recently a letter of support was received from Premier MacLellan of Nova Scotia. The premier reiterated his government's commitment to introduce companion provincial legislation to Bill C-30 as soon as possible.

The most important statements of support came at the standing committee's hearings on Bill C-30 from witnesses representing the Mi'kmaq people. Rick Simon, vice-chief of the Assembly of First Nations, noted that education was the key to opening many doors that have been closed to first nations people for far too long. I quote:

This bill sets out to change the course of education in a significant way—now is the time for change.

Sister Dorothy Moore, acting director of the Mi'kmaq services division of the provincial department of education, had this to say:

As we move towards the 21st century, we the Mi'kmaq people more than ever before realize that quality education for our children is the priority. In order for this to happen, Mi'kmaq people must take control of their own education.

The chairperson of the Nova Scotia School Boards Association also appeared before the standing committee to endorse Bill C-30. Marg Forbes told the committee:

Enabling the Mi'kmaq to be responsible and active participants in the education process should make it a very positive exercise for all.

The chiefs of the nine participating Mi'kmaq communities have passed a resolution asking the government to proceed with the legislation as expeditiously as possible. Quick passage of Bill C-30 is needed to begin the implementation of final agreements in advance of the 1998-99 school year.

With that in mind I ask hon. members to confirm their support for this historic transfer initiative by voting in favour of Bill C-30 so it can be sent quickly to the other place.

[Claude Bachand, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to rise today to speak to Bill C-30, which concerns powers accorded the Mi'kmaq of Nova Scotia in the field of education.

I know that many Mi'kmaq from Nova Scotia are probably listening to our speeches, because this represents a vital step in the right direction, in giving them control over their education. I will report on this later. Native people have told us that education was definitely a step toward self-determination, and I greet them as a brother.

First reading of this bill occurred on February 6. It transfers legislative and administrative jurisdiction over education. This means that the Mi'kmaq education council, which will comprise chiefs from the various signatory nations, will have control over education. Matters in this area will no longer be decided by officials in Ottawa. People in their respective communities will say “This is how we are going to manage education. This is how we intend to provide an education that reflects our culture. This is how we will enrich education with the Mi'kmaq language”.

So this is very important for them and for the nine of the thirteen Mi'kmaq nations in Nova Scotia that have signed the agreement already.

Usually, according to the bill under consideration, I say a few words in a native language, but today I tried to highlight the tales of the Mi'kmaq, the fabric of Mi'kmaq tales. It seems to me it is always important to start this way to provide a background on the way the Mi'kmaq react and view not only education but life as a whole.

For those who do not know, the word “Mi'kmaq” has a particular meaning. What does it mean? It means “people of the dawn” or “those the furthest east”. The first people in Canada to see the sun in the morning are the Mi'kmaq, the people of the east. So the notion of the sun is very important.

For them, the sun links the creator, man and the environment. It also provides an explanation of the origin of man and of the earth. There is often a very vivid image of the sun giving off sparks. The sparks give form to life.

The Minister of Citizenship and Immigration is very interested in what I have to say and I am delighted.

I now resume my comments. This spark takes three forms. There is one that disappears and decomposes after death, and one which transcends time, which ends up in the land and in the souls of men. The latter is called mntu and is considered by the Mi'kmaq to be the most important form. Finally, there is the spark that drives life, the good spark that helps people during their time on earth. All this is based on the concept that everything on earth is living.

To us, animals, plants and people are living things, but their belief goes further than that. People and plants are living, but so are bodies of water and animals. For the Mi'kmaq, all these entities have intelligence. That is why negligence is so discouraged by the Nova Scotia Mi'kmaq, as it is by many aboriginal nations. Negligence and waste are not common among aboriginals, precisely because of the great respect for all these sparks of life that make up the environment around them. They believe that the shell can disintegrate, but the mntu I mentioned earlier remains alive forever.

For them, a tree does not die. It will grow again on the spot where it fell. For them, an animal does not die. Its blood will seep into the ground and eventually bring about the animal's reincarnation.

This is important to any explanation of the Mi'kmaq philosophy. The legislation is perfectly consistent with the philosophy I have tried to explain.

The federal government is transferring its jurisdiction over education to the nine Mi'kmaq bands of Nova Scotia. I will list them all: the First Nations of Eskasoni, Membertou, Chapel Island, Whycocomagh, Wagmatcook in Cape Breton, Shubenacadie, Annapolis Valley, Acadia and Pictou Landing.

The convention leading up to this bill was signed on February 14, 1997 with the nine Mi'kmaq bands. Bill C-30 implements most of it.

The agreement is subdivided into several parts. One part addresses powers over education. What I said before still stands. Everything decided in Ottawa for the Mi'kmaq communities of Nova Scotia will, from now on, be decided by them. This involves transfers at the legislative, administrative and financial levels.

The financial aspect lends a degree of originality to the bill we have before us. Not only does it grant them full authority, but there is also a five-year plan, along with a transfer of some $150 million, which should have been a bit higher to include members who live off reserve. I shall get back to that later.

I wish to congratulate the nine groups that have signed the agreement and will now be associated in a school board on which the chiefs will be represented. The originality of Bill C-30 lies in the fact that there is an option that allows the four non-signatory communities to join the agreement at any time. If the government manages to come to an agreement with one of the four, that community can then join the agreement and be covered by the bill we have before us today.

This being a tripartite agreement, education normally being a provincial jurisdiction, the Government of Nova Scotia must pass legislation. I know that it is in the process of drafting the Mi'kmaq Education Act, and this should be in the final stretch, so that these people can take over control of their education.

I described this before as one step toward native self-determination. As we know, education is what enables all of us to achieve our full potential in life, and it is truly the gateway to freedom.

For the aboriginal people, education will open doors that have been closed to them until now. Chief Lindsay Marshall of Chapel Island, whose immense contribution I must acknowledge here, said something most interesting when he appeared before the standing committee on May 26. I quote: “Jurisdiction of education is a basic right that is enjoyed by all Canadians and a right that our Mi'kmaq nation has not exercised since the time of colonization of this country, 500 years ago”.

Phil Fontaine said he agreed totally with the fact that education was the path to self-determination. Generations of native people necessarily grow up with a system of education. It provides them with values, a culture and a language not their own. These people can never and will never be headed toward self-determination.

With the new reality before them, education will ultimately lead them to greater self-determination and to the preservation of their culture, language and heritage—all vital to native culture.

When these young people go to provincial schools, it is hard for them to speak Mi'kmaq and to take Mi'kmaq courses, because they are thrown together with non-native children. Now they can give their own language courses, teach their own Mi'kmaq culture and tales like the one I just told. They explain the origins of the Mi'kmaq, what they do, where they have gone, at what crossroads they may be.

We must not forget that, historically, we did all we could to deny the Mi'kmaq access to their culture, just as we tried to deny all aboriginal peoples the right to enjoy their own culture, language and heritage and to control their own lives. All that had been denied. Residential schools are a blot on Canada's history. They are the best example of the negation of native culture, language and heritage.

There, as in other parts of Canada, children were systematically taken from their families and placed in residential schools, all in the interests of assimilation. The ultimate goal was to wipe out native cultures and languages, to assimilate these people into Canadian society.

Many aboriginals who appeared before the committee told us that not only had this damaged their self-confidence, but it had also left them ashamed of their own culture.

There is no denying that the residential system was created to break the native culture, to assimilate it. In the end, it succeeded in crushing an entire generation of natives. With the help of God, the Creator as natives would say, we are trying to reverse this trend and recognize that there is a diversity in native communities and culture that will enrich Canadian and Quebec society.

An entire generation of natives was wiped out. This is a very shameful aspect of that era that was recently acknowledged by the minister in her reconciliation statement. She acknowledged that the residential schools were an appalling failure and that this concept should never have been developed.

I would now like to turn to another concept. Yesterday evening, during the infernal round of 80 votes that went on until 3 a.m., I read part of the royal commission's report. The concept of resettlement is one that has been underestimated.

The Mi'kmaq now listening know their history well. They are very much aware of how much they were victimized by their resettlement in Nova Scotia. By this I mean that certain communities were uprooted and moved elsewhere on all manner of pretexts.

The one that was used in Nova Scotia was administrative in nature. The public servants and Indian agents of the day said: “They are too spread out. It costs too much to deliver services all over the place”. In the early 1900s, complete communities were shut down, often with the help of the churches and the Hudson's Bay Company. The latter would more or less bring about the automatic death of a village by announcing the closing down of its trading post.

This forced the people to move elsewhere to survive. Native people relocated to Eskasoni, on Cape Breton, and to Shubenacadie, on the mainland. Both of these are signatories of the agreement before us today.

Theirs is a tragic history. Even though the federal government was involved at that time in an attempt to uproot the aboriginal culture, we must congratulate the Mi'kmaq who survived all this upheaval. Today at last, they are not only seeing the light at the end of the tunnel, they have also taken a giant step toward total self-government. When our education is in someone else's hands, taking control of it must be the first step.

Bill C-30 makes up to some extent for this past fraught with meaning for them. Naturally, the Bloc Quebecois not only listened to all witnesses but it also proposed a number of amendments, which were unfortunately defeated yesterday. I think it is important to address these issues at third reading.

For instance, clause 7 of the bill provides that all the services I just mentioned will be available only to members living on reserve. Those living off reserve will not be admissible to the same education program, which means that they must attend provincial schools. Unfortunately, discussions on native culture, language and heritage will not be as extensive as they would be in their own education system. The government is discriminating against these people to a certain extent.

Why are these people not living on reserve? Often for reasons beyond their control. Let me read the provision which make the existing program applicable only to members living on reserve. Clause 6.(1) of the bill states, and I quote:

A community shall, to the extent provided by the agreement, provide or make provision for primary, elementary and secondary educational programs and services for residents of its reserve.

That means you can be a member of any Mi'kmaq nation, but if you do not live on the reserve, you are not entitled to the same programs as the people who do. We introduced an amendment to include all members, but, for purely financial reasons, I think, the government and certain opposition parties unfortunately rejected the amendment. I was speaking earlier of the sum of $150 million to provide all services, and this measure, in our opinion, would have cost an additional $60 million.

I should point out that the figures we have for the Nova Scotia Mi'kmaq are approximate, but some 30% of community members live off the reserve. The government's decision is therefore deplorable.

In introducing my amendment, I discussed the situation of natives off the reserve, because it applies not only to the Mi'kmaq but to all native Canadians. In some communities, up to half the registered members live off reserve.

I find it deplorable that the federal government thinks two ministers should be responsible for this question. The Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development is responsible for all natives on reserves and for the Inuit living north of the 60th parallel. Another minister is responsible for Metis and native people living off the reserve, hence the discrimination we mentioned earlier.

I remember the government member telling me in response to the amendment that the federal government could not get involved in this area, that it was now a matter of provincial jurisdiction. That means that the debate over those not living on the reserve and attending provincial schools was a matter for the provinces. I cannot argue with that, but I think the government is quick to dump its fiduciary responsibilities for these people. I would even say that it is sometimes tempting to think that the government encourages them to leave the reserve, because their leaving would cost it less, and the provincial governments would then be responsible for them.

So the issue is one of equity and non-discrimination in our opinion. It is too bad that, in the end, the Mi'kmaq living off reserve will not be entitled to the same services as those on reserve. There will be a much greater inclination to try to assimilate off reserve members and include them in provincial programs that take very little account of the realities they face.

It is easy to understand why people do not really have a choice. There are also huge problems with respect to native housing.

Right now, overcrowding on reserves is forcing people to leave. The lack of jobs on reserves is also forcing people to look for work elsewhere. As soon as they leave the reserve, the federal government says that they are no longer its problem, that the provinces must take over. Because of this, three or four generations are sometimes forced to live under one roof. Sometimes, there are 16 people in one three-room apartment. Imagine how crowded that is.

For their well-being or in order to find work, people are forced to leave the reserve. This shows the importance of band membership. Those who leave the reserve are cut off and will become assimilated. We therefore have two classes of citizen.

It also has a negative effect on their culture. The more one visits Mi'kmaq reserves, the more one realizes that, when natives have their education under control, they can take back their native culture and language. They are in a better position to identify with their past, to have a clearer understanding of their roots and therefore of where they want to go in the future.

Some people will say that they do not want to see educational ghettos on reserves either, and they are right. Those who appeared before the committee told us that natives have been careful to ensure that the native curriculum is in line with post-secondary and university curriculums. They do not want young people leaving the reserve to be unable to pursue their education.

The idea is not to create ghettos, but to give them the opportunity to rediscover their culture, their language and their heritage and to develop pride in them, even at the post-secondary level. Those who are in the Nova Scotia school system will be at greater risk of losing their culture, language and heritage.

That was the reason for my amendment, to correct this situation. I wish to thank my colleague from Halifax West, who is here today, for understanding its impact and supporting it in the House. Coming from Nova Scotia he clearly understands, I believe, the Mi'kmaq dynamic in that province. I therefore congratulate him publicly for the position he has taken.

The motion was aimed at putting an end to the business of buck-passing between the federal government and the provinces. It was a lost cause and the provinces will be the losers, along with those living off reserve, who will pay for that loss with their culture, their heritage and their language. What I said before is true. The government rejected the motion because it would have had to fork out another $60 million.

This is deplorable, when the government is patting itself on the back for its zero deficit, for having a balanced budget, yet we know full well it has done so by cutting EI benefits without reducing workers' and employers' contributions. This is too bad, because this government will definitely end up with a surplus next year. It would have had the opportunity to redeem itself for past mistakes, but it did not take that opportunity.

Another amendment I felt was important was the matter of the treaty. The government has a number of possibilities once an agreement has been signed. It can either do what it did here, bring in a bill, or it can confirm it in a treaty. The government opted for the bill.

I would like to read my motion, which was as follows: “No later than three years after the coming into force of all the provisions of this Act, the Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development shall convene a conference composed of the signatories to the Agreement in order to determine whether this Act should be converted into a treaty within the meaning of section 35 of the Constitution Act, 1982.”

I felt this was important, because when I asked the public servants, their reply was: “You know, it was the Mi'kmaq who did not want it”. When I asked the Mi'kmaq, their reply was “Oh no, we did want it, but the federal government did not”.

We cited excuses such as “If we set a sum of money in an agreement and then have to enter it in a treaty the money will be frozen”.

That is why the amendment I proposed aimed at giving the agreement and the bill a chance to remain in force for three out of the five years, at which time we would re-evaluate the situation with the nine communities—or ten or eleven, if more join—to see if we could convert it into a treaty.

The issue of a treaty is important. People who came to testify from the four communities that have not signed told us that they would be tempted to sign if it were a treaty or could become one. Even though the amendment was defeated, I encourage the government to pay a lot of attention to that, because treaties have a very symbolic value.

What does a treaty mean? Treaties are not just international. The first Europeans to arrive here signed treaties with the native peoples. For native peoples, treaties are solemn, almost sacred, because they are signed between nations.

So I invite the government to give serious thought to converting this agreement, now a bill, into a treaty. This would finally ensure protection under the famous section 35 of the Constitution Act, 1982.

The government preferred the bill approach. A treaty and a bill are two very different things. Even if the current approach is via a bill, perhaps the treaty approach a few years down the road should be looked into.

To bolster my argument that some aboriginal people would be interested, I would like to quote what Rick Simon, regional Vice-Chief of the Assembly of First Nations, for Nova Scotia, said when he appeared on May 26: “We did talk about the concept of a modern-day treaty to education with protection under section 35, but the federal government was not willing to go that far. In fact, we spent probably six months in discussion back and forth to the point of a treaty not being the route to go.”

Naturally, the aboriginal people, being highly pragmatic, saw that they were faced with having to continue their battle for a treaty. In the meantime, the public servants in Ottawa would have continued to administer all educational services in the communities.

So they said to themselves: “Let us move ahead one step at least. Let us accept conversion of the agreement of February 1996 or 1997 into a bill. Then later we will look into the possibility of its conversion to a treaty”. The bill we are looking at does offer that possibility, but my amendment forced the Minister of Indian and Northern Affairs to call the signatories together in order to examine whether it was appropriate to convert the agreement into a treaty.

The Bloc Quebecois will support Bill C-30. I also want to wish the Mi'kmaq good luck. I have no doubts about their ability to control their own education. I would even say that these people are capable of looking after their own economy, culture and heritage. They are entirely able to do so.

I have always thought that the way to end aboriginals' dependence on the federal government was through education, self-government, and land claims with a sufficiently large base to ensure financial self-sufficiency.

I am convinced that this is the only way to end their dependence on the federal government, which has led to a host of problems, including drug addiction, alcoholism, suicide, domestic violence and despair. These people must be given hope.

This educational reform is one step on the road to self-government and self-sufficiency, because it must not be forgotten that a society's greatest resource is often not its forests or its mines but its school children.

In closing, it is with great pleasure that I have accepted the invitation from several aboriginal leaders to travel to Nova Scotia this summer. At the end of July, I plan to go to Nova Scotia and meet most, I hope, of that province's native communities.

I think that the Mi'kmaq are one of Canada's greatest First Nations. I have been pleased, on behalf of the Bloc Quebecois, to help them on their path to self-sufficiency and self-government. I wish them all the best with their education program in Nova Scotia.

[Gordon Earle, NDP, Halifax West, NS]

Mr. Speaker, I would like to begin by saying that I will be splitting my time with my colleague, the hon. member for Bras D'Or.

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland)]

There is good news and bad news. The good news is you have 40 minutes; the bad news is you cannot split it.

[Svend Robinson, NDP, Burnaby—Douglas, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order. I wonder if there might be a disposition on the part of the House to grant consent to allow the member to divide his time with the member for Bras d'Or.

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland)]

The Hon. Member for Burnaby—Douglas is requesting unanimous consent to allow the hon. member for Halifax West to split his time. There would not be questions and comments. It would be 20 and 20.

Does the hon. member have the unanimous consent of the House?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.