Debates of Sept. 21st, 1998

Questions On The Order Paper

[Andy Scott, Liberal, Solicitor General of Canada]

With respect to the Ministry of the Solicitor General, the answer is as follows:

(a) The National Parole Board made the following number of pardon decisions:

1994-95—25,502 1995-96—16,981 1996-97—19,269

(b) The National Parole Board granted the following number of pardons:

1994-95—23,895 1995-96—15,401 1996-97—17,529

(c) The National Parole Board revoked the following of pardons:

1994-95—269 1995-96—416 1996-97—498

(d) The National Parole Board denied the following of pardon applications:

1994-95—228 1995-96—172 1996-97—184

(e) There are no statistics available regarding the issue of pardons by offence type.

(f) There are no statistics available regarding the revocation of pardons by offence type.

(g) There are no statistics available regarding the denial of pardons by offence type.

Question No. 97—

[Eric C. Lowther, Reform, Calgary Centre, AB]

With respect to the child tax benefit, CTB during this and the last fiscal year for this program: ( a ) how many cases have there been where the same child was being claimed for the CTB by more than one individual at the same time: ( b ) what percentage are these cases of the total number of cases in the CTB program over the same period of time: ( c ) what was the total amount of overpayment for all of these double payment cases: ( d ) what was the average dollar value per double payment case: ( e ) what was the average length of time of such double payment: ( f ) how are such cases handled after they are discovered: ( g ) how many cases have there been of CTB payments being paid for an extended period of time after the deth of a child: ( h ) what percentage are these cases of the total number of cases in the CTB program over the same period of time: ( i ) what percentage are these cases of the total number of cases of child deaths where the child had been in the CTB program: ( j ) what was the total amount of overpayment for all of these cases: ( k ) what was the average dollar value per overpayment case: ( l ) what was the average length of time of overpayment: ( m ) how are such cases handled after they are discovered: ( n ) what were the costs to the department in discovering and correcting the above errors?

[Herb Dhaliwal, Liberal, Minister of National Revenue]

(a) Revenue Canada has effective processes in place to ensure that duplicate payments cannot be made in respect of a child, for the same period. As a result, such cases are extremely rare. A review of all compliance activities for the 1997-98 fiscal period, over 31,000 actions, revealed only one case of duplicate payments being made in respect of a child. Data were not kept at that level of detail prior to 1997-98.

(b) For statistical purposes, the percentage is effectively “O”.

(c) The one case detected involved an overpayment of $1,574.

(d) Not applicable.

(e) For the case detected, overpayments continued for 17 months.

(f) The overpayment is being recovered from the client. In general, overpayments are recovered by deducting 50% of the amount of future benefits until the debt is repaid. However, a lower rate will be accepted if the client demonstrates that the 50% withholding causes significant financial hardship.

(g) Each year, about 400 clients fail to report the death of a CTB, child tax benefit, entitled child to Revenue Canada, and continue to reveive benefits in respect of that child for an extended period of time, i.e., more that a year following the death of the child.

(h) This represents 0.007% i.e., about one child in 14,000, of children in respect of whom CTB is being paid for the year.

(i) The annual total of 400 cases is about 18% of CTB entitled children who die each year.

(j) Losses for the last and current fiscal years are estimated to be less that $800,000 and $1,000,000 respectively, against annual expenditures of $5.1 billion.

(k) The average annual overpayment per case is approximately $510.

(l) If neither the client nor Revenue Canada take corrective action in respect of a case, payments may continue for an average of 9.6 years following the child's death. Using this as a worst case scenario, Revenue Canada risks overpaying CTB by an average of $4,900, over the duration of the case. It should be noted that CTB is a relatively new program, with the first payments being made in 1993.

In the near future, Revenue Canada hopes to obtain detailed infromation on child deaths directly from the provinces, so that the department can accurately and quickly take appropriate action to prevent overpayments, without adding to ghe stress and duress experienced by the grieving family.

(m) In most cases the parent contacts Revenue Canada when he or she realizes that benefits are still being received in respect of a deceased child. They may be detected during routine reviews of the account, but the frequency of occurrence is too low for this to happen more than a few times a year. In either case the account is adjusted and any overpayment is recovered without interest and penalities being charged, barring deliberate fraud.

(n) To date Revenue Canada has not undertaken any compliance reviews that specifically target the failure to report the death of a child. Revenue Canada has concentrated its efforts on imforming the public of the need to advise the department immediately of such an event. Assuming the required data will be made available by the provinces, Revenue Canada will soon be able to take prompt corrective action at a very modest cost.

Question No. 101—

[Jim Hart, Reform, Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC]

How many people were infected with Hepatitis C from tainted blood before January 1, 1986 and what is the source of this information?

[Allan Rock, Liberal, Minister of Health]

Current estimates place the number of people still living who were infected with hepatitis C through Canada's blood system before January 1, 1986, at somewhere between 20,000 and 30,000. This does not include the 10,000 and 18,000 people who were already infected with hepatitis C before they used the blood system, but for a number of reasons many if not most of these cases cannot be distinguished from the others. Thus there are between 30,000 to 48,000 living people who might be considered as having been infected with hepatitis C through the blood system.

A working group of epidemiologists under contract to Health Canada developed these estimates using the latest data and information available. Health Canada invited key stakeholders to participate on an expert panel that reviewed the working group's findings. Participants included representatives from the provinces and territories, and consumer groups such as the Hepatitis C Society of Canada and the Canadian Hemophilia Society. The expert panel endorsed the working group methodologies and findings.

Question No. 102—

[Jim Hart, Reform, Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC]

Has the federal government provided the Nicola Indian Band funding for a feasibility study to purchase the Douglas Lake Ranch and, if so: ( a ) how much money did the government provide; and ( b ) what are the terms of the agreement between the government and the Nicola Indian Band?

[Jane Stewart, Liberal, Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development]

The federal government has not provided any funding to the Nicola Band for it to undertake a feasibility study to purchase the Douglas Lake Ranch.

Question No. 103—

[John Cummins, Reform, Delta—South Richmond, BC]

With reference to infectious salmon anemia (ISA) and its possible effect on salmon and other marine life on Canada's east and west coasts: ( a ) where on the east coast has the disease been found amongst farmed Atlantic salmon, how many pens have reported the disease, how many farms, and how many bays; ( b ) what action has been taken by aquaculture operators to control the disease on the east coast, how many farmed Atlantic salmon have been slaughtered, and what was their value; ( c ) what chemicals, antibiotics or other medicines have the aquaculture operators on the east coast used to prevent or control the disease, and which of these products have been approved for use in the marine environment; ( d ) what is the effect on wild salmon, shellfish and other marine life of the chemicals, antibiotics or other medicines used by aquaculture operators to prevent or control the disease; ( e ) is it possible that local wild species of salmon and other marine life on the east coast have been affected by the strain of the disease found amongst farmed salmon, if so which species of wild salmon and other marine life are most susceptible to the disease, and which of these species would be most threatened by the disease; ( f ) what is the responsibility of the Department of Fisheries and Oceans in regard to this strain of the disease, more particularly what responsibility does the department by statute have in dealing with this disease when found in sea-base aquaculture operations; ( g ) what responsibility does the Department of Fisheries and Oceans have to prevent the possible transmission of this strain of disease from aquaculutre operations on the east coast to local wild fish stocks; ( h ) what action has the Department of Fisheries and Oceans taken to ensure that this strain of the disease is not transmitted to wild fish stocks on the east coast; ( i ) has the Department of Fisheries and Oceans succeeded in preventing the transmission of this strain of the disease to wild stocks on the east coast; ( j ) what research has the Department of Fisheries undertaken on the possible spread of this strain of the disease to wild stocks on the east coast, when will this research be completed and when will it be made available to the public; ( k ) what resources (money and personnel) has the Department of Fisheries spent in the control and prevention of this disease; ( l ) so as to prevent the transmission of this disease what research has the Department of Fisheries and Oceans undertaken into alternatives to net pen salmon aquaculture; ( m ) are farmed Atlantic salmon on west coast susceptible to this disease; ( n ) has this disease found on the east coast yet been found in farmed Atlantic salmon stocks on the west coast; ( o ) what responsibility does the Department of Fisheries and Oceans have to endure that the disease does not get tranferred to farmed Atlantic salmon stocks on the west coast; ( p ) what action has the Department of Fisheries and Oceans taken to ensure that the disease is not transferred to farmed Atlantic salmon stocks on the west coast; ( q ) what special precautions is the Department of Fisheries and Oceans undertaking to prevent transfer of the disease to the 214 wild coho runs on the west coast identified by the American Fisheries Society as being at high risk of extinction; and ( r ) is it possible to transfer the disease from farmed Atlantic salmon stocks on the west coast to local wild stocks and if so what wild salmon and other marine species are susceptible to this disease?

[David Anderson, Liberal, Minister of Fisheries and Oceans]

(a) Infectious salmon anaemia, ISA, has only been found in Atlantic salmon marine farms in the Bay of Fundy along the south west coast of New Brunswick. Twenty one farms have been infected in three bays, Limekiln, Bliss Harbour ans Seal Cove.

(b) The aquaculture industry on the east coast has supported the establishment of a comprehensive ISA control program. A series of procedures have been or will soon be implemented including strict site disinfection and disinfection of waste water from fish processing plants. The industry has also relied on early harvest, i.e. before there are signs of the disease, as a measure to control ISA. It is estimated that approximately 1.5 million Atlantic salmon have been, or are in the process of being, eradicated in the three affected bays. The economic impact of ISA is estimated to be as high as $25-30 million.

(c) Infectious salmon anaemia, ISA, is a viral disease with no known treatment, so chemicals and antibiotics are not being used to control this disease. There are also no vaccines available to prevent infection of Atlatic salmon with the ISA virus. Instead, the prevention and control of ISA are based on comprenhensive management measures such as cleaning and disinfection of farm premises and equipement, restricted movement of live adult fish, disease surveillance, and disinfection of offal on waste from fish slaughterhouses. Sanitary slaughtering of market fish, i.e. slaughtering fish before there are disease signs, form farms where ISA is present il also recommended.

(d) No chemicals antibiotics or other medicines have been used to control this disease, so there is no impact on wild salmon, shellfish and other marine life.

(e) It is always possible that local wild Atlantic slamon, the same species as cultured Atlantic salmon, have been affected by ISA. However, ISA was first recognized in Norway in 1984, and the Norwegian authorities still consider ISA as a disease of farmed, not wild, Atlantic salmon in marine cages or land based facilities using seawater. The same situation is observed in New Brunswick. ISA has only been found in cultured Atlantic salmon in seawater, and testing of wild salmon and juvenile salmon in freshwater hatcheries has been negative for ISA.

(f) In New Brunswick, the Department of Fisheries and Oceans, DFO, has no direct responsibility for controlling ISA in marine farms. The provincial department of fisheries and aquaculture has the responsibility for controlling diseases in salmon farms under the provincial aquaculture act. DFO's mandate in New Brunswick relates only to protecting the health of wild fish.

However, DFO has provided considerable scientific support to the province in terms of disease diagnostics, disease surveillance in wild fish, and participating on committees established to advise the New Brunswick government on ways to control ISA.

(g) ISA is not known to occur in wild fish, either in Canada or Norway where the disease was first detected. ISA has also been reported very recently in Scotland for the first time, again only in farmed fish in coastal waters. So DFO has not taken any specific action to date to control the spread of ISA to wild fish in New Brunswick. DFO is represented on committees mandated to control and manage the disease in aquaculture facilities and is monitoring the situation closely.

(h) ISA is not believed to be transmitted from parents to progeny via eggs. However, if transmission of ISA to ohter provinces on the east coast is to occur, it would likely be through the movement of live eggs and fish. Such transfers are controlled under the fish health protection regulations or under section 4 of the Fisheries Act. Live eggs or fish are only tranferred to other provinces form New Brunswick if sources have been inspected for and found to be free of the ISA virus.

(i) There is no historical evidence that ISA occurs in wild fish; nor is there evidence that ISA has been transmitted to wild populations of salmon in New Brunswick. In 1997, DFO tested more than 100 wild salmonids for the presence of ISA and all fish were negative. And additional 120 wild juvenile Atlantic salmon have been tested by DFO in 1998, as well as samples from herring, cod, pollock, mackerel and flounder. Furthermore, adult Atlantic salmon returning to rivers draining into the inner Bay of Fundy are being sampled, 30 adults so far, including some fish that escaped from aquaculture cages. As in 1997 all tests to date are negative for ISA.

(j) Research efforts in DFO Science has focused on comfirming that ISA was the disease agent for the syndrome that was causing high mortalities on salmon farms in south west New Brunswick, and to assess the validity of cell culture to diagnose infectious salmon anaemia. All the research results on transmission of the disease are completed and were made public during scientific conferences, workshops or meetings. The laboratory work on using cell culture as a diagnotic tool has just been completed, and results will be made available as described upon completion of the data analysis. DFO is also paying for a contract to study the epidemiology of ISA. The contract report will be a public document.

(k) Work by DFO on ISA has been performed periodically by several DFO scientific staff within the existing work-plans. No additional money has been allocated, although it has necessitated a rearragement of priorities in certain cases. DFO is also paying $45,000 for a contract that is now in progress, to study the epidemiology of ISA.

(l) ISA is considered a manageable disease in Norway if management measures described in (c) are implemented. DFO has not studied alternatives to net-pen culture.

(m) In North America, ISA has only been found in Atlantic salmon reared in marine cages in the Bay of Fundy south west New Brunswick. As the Atlantic salmon farmed on the west coast are the same species they would be susceptible, but there is no indication of the disease in British Columbia.

(n) No, ISA has not been detected on the west coast.

(o) The Department of Fisheries and Oceans is responsible for protecting the health of fisheries resources in Canada. Any interprovincial movement of live salmonid eggs and fish, e.g. transfers from New Bruswick to British Columbia, is subject to requirements of the fish health protection regualtions, or under section of the Fisheries Act. Sources of eggs and live ish originating from New Brunswick would have to be inspected and certified free of ISA before and import permit was issued for the importation to another province such as British Columbia. As an added precaution because of the presence of ISA in New Brunswick, local fish health officers who administer the fish health protection regulations on the east coast have agreed not to approve request to transfer live fish from marine cages located in the Bay of Fundy to any other province.

(p) The measures described in (o) minimize the risk if ISA being transferred to the west coast.

(q) The measures described in (o) minimize the risk of transferring ISA to any salmonid stocks on the west coast. These meaures are meant to protect wild coho salmon as well as farmed salmon. It should be noted that Pacific salmon is a different genus to Atlantic salmon, and the virus has not been found in Pacific salmon species.

(r) This is a highly hypothetical question since ISA is not present on the west coast and its distribution is limited to farmed fish in south west New Brunswick. ISA is a disease affecting only farmed Atlantic salmon. To our knowledge it has never been found in wild Atlantic salmon populations. Atlantic salmon is the only species that we know is susceptible to this disease.

Question No. 104—

[John Duncan, Reform, Vancouver Island North, BC]

In the last three fiscal years (1995-96, 1996-97 and 1997-98), on the west coast of Canada, how much money in total was spent at the light stations known as Trial Island, Merry Island, Chrome Island, Entrance Island, Cape Mudge, Scarlett Point, Pultney Point, Boat Bluff, Green Island, Dryad Point, Pachena Point and Carmanah Point on automation in preparation for destaffing for alternative lighting, fog horns, power generation, alarm relay systems, weather recording systems, recording buoys, cameras, anemometers, security structures, technician transport and adjustment costs for same, battery replacement costs, and on satellite time costs for alternative weather data recording and transmission?

[David Anderson, Liberal, Minister of Fisheries and Oceans]

In order to make a decision on destaffing 12 light stations, in the pacific region of the Department of Fisheries and Oceans, it was necessary to obtain user input on the acceptability of alternative services at modernized light stations. Therefore, the coast guard spent money on various activities to provide the necessary demonstration period at these site including aids to navigation equipment, weather equipment, and transportation costs. The light stations are: Trial Island, Merry Island, Chrome Island, Entrance Island, Cape Mudge, Scarlett Point, Pulteney Point, Boat Bluff, Green Island, Dryad Point, Pachena Point and Carmanah Point.

Question No. 105—

[John Duncan, Reform, Vancouver Island North, BC]

In the last two fiscal years, 1996-97 and 1997-98, on the west coast of Canada, how much money has been spent replacing or fixing solar panels on beacons and buoys that were damaged because of theft or vandalism?

[David Anderson, Liberal, Minister of Fisheries and Oceans]

In the last two fiscal years $27,845, not including ship or technician time, was spent in the Pacific region of the Department of Fisheries and Oceans by the coast guard on replacing or fixing solar panels on beacons and buoys that wwere damaged because of theft or vandalilsm.

1996-97—$13,435. 1997-98—$14,410.

Question No. 106—

[Grant McNally, Reform, Dewdney—Alouette, BC]

Can the government provide the rationale and criteria used to substantiate the October 21, 1994 declaration of the immigration minister, pursuant to paragraph 19(1)( l ) of the Immigration Act, that in his opinion, the former Marxist regime of Afghanistan, 1978 to 1992, had been engaged in systemic or gross human rights violations?

[Lucienne Robillard, Liberal, Minister of Citizenship and Immigration]

Citizenship and Immigration Canada, CIC

The rationale and criteria used in designating governments/regimes, including Afghanistan, under paragraph 19(1)( l ) of the Immigration Act:

Under paragraph 19(1)( l ) of the Immigration Act, senior members or officials associated with regimes that, in the opinion of the minister, committed gross human rights abuses or crimes against humanity are considered inadmissible to Canada unless the minister is of the opinion that their admission would not be contrary to the national interest. These officials need not have committed crimes against humanity themselves but, by virtue of their position during the period when atrocities were committed, likely agreed with or were able to influence the actions, laws and policies of the government, in addition to benifiting from the status brought about from being a part of that government.

Immigration headquarters has the responsability for researching the human rights record of regimes in consultation with the Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade, DFAIT. DFAIT plays an active role in this process by providing clear departmental positions with respect to the human rights practices of a specific regime and by providing an assessment of the international impact. Where appropriate, immigration headquarters recommends to the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration whether a regime should be designated under paragraph 19(1)( l ) of the Immigration Act.

In 1994, CIC requested the opinion of the minister regarding the human rights record of the former Marxist regime in Afghanistan, 1978-1992, for the purposes of designating it under paragraph 19(1)( l ). The Marxist regime was described as one which was engaged in terrorism, systematic or gross human rights violations, war crimes or crimes against humanity within the meaning of the Criminal Code of Canada. One of its leaders, Dr. Najibullah, had formerly been head of the Afghani Information Police, KHAD, whose agents routinely and savagely administered torture during interrogations of prisoners. Officials from Foreign Affairs were consulted and they concurred with the recommendation to designate. The Minister of Citizenship and Immigration subsequently designated the former Marxist regime in Afghanistan under paragraph 19(1)( l ).

Question No. 107—

[Peter MacKay, Progressive Conservative, Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough, NS]

Can the government provide information as to whether or not Mr. David Pryce is working in the office of the Minister of Industry or any other minister's office and, if so: ( a ) does he perform duties that require security clearance and ( b ) can the government provide information as to restrictions for ministers and their staff who hold a criminal record, as it relates to security clearance?

[John Manley, Liberal, Minister of Industry]

Mr. David Pryce is employed as a special assistant with responsibilities for Ontario in the office of the Minister of Industry.

(a) All special assistants to ministers require “secret” security clearance.

(b) Staff who have a criminal record are treated in the same way as public servants to ensure that such cases are disposed of in a satisfactory, fair and objective manner which respects the rights of the individual. The existence of a criminal record need not be sufficient grounds to deny a security screening status. The procedures stipulated in the Treasury Board government security policy are followed. This means that the individual is offered an opportunity to explain the adverse information. The record is considered in light of such matters as the duties to be performed, the nature and frequency of the offence, the passage of time, the individual's attitude toward the offence, the extent to which the individual has changed behaviour and the likely recurrence of similar offences and their potential impact.

Question No. 112—

[Chris Axworthy, NDP, Saskatoon—Rosetown—Biggar, SK]

Is the Department of National Defence planning to change the communications systems on the Sea King helicopters and, if so, what is the cost?

[Art Eggleton, Liberal, Minister of National Defence]

The following changes to the Sea King helicopters' communication systems are underway to conform with NATO operation standards:

(a) The “Have Quick II” systems is being integrated into the AN ARC 164 (V) UHF radios at a cost of $1 million; and

(b) The KY75 system is being replaced by the Advanced Narrow Band Digital Voice Terminal, ANDVT, at a cost of $325,000.

Question No. 114—

[Philip Mayfield, Reform, Cariboo—Chilcotin, BC]

With regards to various developing countries involvement in the Montreal protocol: ( a ) what role is Canada playing to ensure these countries meet the specified standards; and ( b ) how much money, including indirect as well as direct funding, has the federal government allocated overall to help these developing countries achieve compliance?

[Peter Adams, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to Leader of the Government in the House of Commons]

I am informed by the Department of Environment and the Canadian International Development Agency as follows:

With regard to various developing countries involvement in the Montreal protocol:

(a) Canada has actively participated in the work of the meetings of the parties and the meetings of the executive committee of the multilateral fund to help ensure compliance of developing countries with the control measures of the protocol. More recently, Canada has presided over the work of the implementation committee which is responsible for reviewing situations of non-compliance with the Montreal protocol. Finally, Canada has been an advocator of a strong and effective non-compliance procedure and was the chief proponent of a newly created working group, ad hoc working group of legal and technical experts on non-compliance to the Montreal protocol, which is mandated to review the non-compliance procedure with a view to developing appropriate recommendations on the need and conditions for the further elaboration and strenghtening of this procedure.

(b) Regarding the issue of funding allocated by the federal government to help developing countries achieve compliance, Canada has, so far, contributed $25.3 million U.S. directly to the multilateral fund of the Montreal protocol shared between the Canadian International Development Agency, CIDA, and Environment Canada, of which $3.2 million U.S. was provided by Environment Canada to the bilateral assistance fund. In addition, Environment Canada has provided, so far, a total of $1.12 million U.S. in financial support to house the multilateral fund secretariat in Montreal. Canada's ongoing commitment to assist developing countries under the Montreal protocol totals approximately $8.2 million Canadian on a annual basis. Finally, CIDA is making two contributions to the Ottawa-based ENGO, Environment Non-Governmental Organization, Friends of the Earth, for ozone related activities in developing countries: a $300,000 Canadian grant over the next three years to strengthen public awareness about ozone issues, and to build national capacity to accelerate the transition from methyl bromide to environmentally benign alternatives in Chile, Ghana and Malaysia; and a grant of $75,000 Canadian this year for an international youth internship program which targets ozone depletion activities.

Question No. 116—

[Ken Epp, Reform, Elk Island, AB]

With respect to the selection of the new information commissioner, could the government specify: ( a ) how many individuals applied for the position of information commissioner; ( b ) what were the names of each of the candidates who applied; and ( c ) what criterion was used to select the information commissioner?

[Gar Knutson, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to Prime Minister]

Part (a)

The information commissioner is a special ombudsperson appointed by parliament ot investigate complaints that the government has denied rights under the Access to Information Act. The commissioner is independent of government and has strong investigative powers.

The position of information commissioner became vacant following the expiration of Mr. John Grace's term of office on April 30, 1998.

Seven individuals expressed an interest in writing in being considered for the position.

Part (b)

The selection process for the new information commissioner was an informal one. Names were brought to the attention of the government for consideration by many sources, including the bureaucracy, the journalist community and members of parliament.

The names of those individuals who wrote in expressing an interest in the position cannot be disclosed since this information is considered personal information and is protected under the Privacy Act.

However, the Honourable John Reid's name was put forward to the government by opposition members of the House of Commons.

Under the Access to Information Act, the appointment of a new information commissioner must be approved by motions in the House of Commons and the Senate.

Following his testimony in committee, the House of Commons and the Senate adopted such motion supporting the appointment of the Honourable John Reid.

The appointment of Mr. Reid was subsequently announced by the government on June 25, 1998.

Part (c)

Although the selection process was informal, the government at all times sought to ensure that the new information commissioner would be an individual possessing experience in managing at the senior executive level, in innovating and leading in the management of a multi-disciplinary team on sensitive issues in a public environment, and with a thorough knowledge of the Access to Information Act, as well as an understanding of the rules of natural justice and fairness, and the principles of public administration, current government structure, and government decision making.

The government shares the view of all parties in the House of Commons and the Senate that Mr. Reid meets these qualifications.

Questions Passed As Orders For Returns

[Peter Adams, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to Leader of the Government in the House of Commons]

Mr. Speaker, if Questions Nos. 85 and 98 could be made orders for returns, these returns would be tabled immediately.

[The Speaker]

Is that agreed?