Debates of Dec. 2nd, 1999

Nisga'A Final Agreement Act

[John Cummins, Reform, Delta—South Richmond, BC]

It is not different. That is a tragedy and it will have serious implications for a fishery that is already suffering from mismanagement by the government.

[Myron Thompson, Reform, Wild Rose, AB]

Mr. Speaker, it gives me pleasure today to speak to this very important issue. I want to start by emphasizing one word in Group No. 1, as well as in the entire group of amendments that will be presented over the next few hours and day, that the government does not seem to understand.

Auditor general reports have constantly called for more accountability, particularly from the Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development but especially accountability for the billions of dollars that are sent to the reserves to try to help these people. Why does that word not exist in the government's vocabulary? It does not exist in the vocabularies of most dictators who say “Do as I say and shut up”.

One of the opposition parties is the NDP. It does not know the meaning of the word accountability. Its members simply insist that we throw more money at this problem, but we do not hear that word in their vocabularies. It is the same with the Conservative Party, another opposition party that is supposed to help us in making sure good legislation goes out of this building. Liberal, Tory, same old story. There is nothing new there.

Bloc members have one thing on the agenda. They want to leave the country so their importance involving this legislation is meaningless. They only have one thing on their minds. They want to form a country of their own.

In the meantime my colleagues formed a committee and went to visit some people in the Vancouver area, including my colleague from Okanagan—Shuswap who was on the committee. We listened to such things as what I will read right now. An elderly lady appeared before the committee and said:

I see my people struggling day to day, picking up bottles, lining up in cigarette line-ups to make $15 to feed their kids for the rest of the month and here our councillors are sitting pretty in a nice office. They spend $28,000 on their coffee room and it is just for the chiefs and council while our kids go to school hungry. I said they wonder why they are getting angry. I said I can't take it any longer, I am so fed up with them. We tried to do a non-confidence on them Sunday but we got overpowered with their people. We have no accountability for what they do for the people and I said I hope somebody out there will help us to get where we need to get in order to have an audit done for our people and find out where is all the money going. What is happening? Why are we having in this country so many individuals crying out to this government for help and what they are crying for is not more money. They are crying for accountability. You are sending money to our chiefs and council and we are living in squalor.

There is a difference between members of my party and the Liberals. I asked every reserve I visited if they had ever seen a member of parliament in their homes or on their reserves other than in the council chambers or the chief's home. The answer was “You are the first, sir”. My wife went with me on many of these ventures. We were told we were the first political MP to ever visit their homes on reserves, which could be a broken down bus with no wheels, no windows, no heat and no water. We went to other homes where there was no furniture. They sit on stumps. They are very hospitable with what little they have. They are great people to get to know.

The example of this story that my colleague heard is only one of thousands that are being expressed across this country to a group of people who finally came together and said they want to be a coalition. They are asking the government for accountability and help. What does the government say? “Go to your chiefs and council”. The chiefs and council are the problem.

They run to Indian affairs and are are told: “Wait a minute, this is an internal problem. You people go to your chiefs and council”. But they are the problem. Nobody is listening to the cry of the grassroots people on the reserves.

I had hopes that we would have people in this building who would have a little compassion for the way conditions are on the reserves so that we could come together and have two or three people from each party form a task force to go out and see these horrible conditions, come back here and collectively recommend some things we could do that would at least make these lives a little more compatible with some sort of a standard of living, instead of the third world conditions that the United Nations says exist in the land of Canada.

Lo and behold, we are having Bill C-9. These grassroots people from this coalition are calling me and expressing their concerns. The government in this treaty is going to give these people nearly $1 billion as part of the deal. Where is this $1 billion going? It is going into the hands of a very few. Therefore, the very rich will continue to become very rich and the very poor will be no better off.

These people are being given power that they have never experienced before in their lives, more greedy power where they will be able to control things in their area beyond belief, beyond what they do now. We have members sitting opposite who claim to be compassionate, caring about individuals who are living in these conditions. However, they are doing absolutely nothing except making sure that it happens without building into any agreement that one word, accountability. Where is it? Why is it being allowed to happen? Why is the government allowing that kind of thing to begin to happen?

Auditor general reports year after year say do something about the accountability factor, particularly on the reserves, particularly with the Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development. He is simply ignored. I just looked at the most recent report which says the same thing, that there are still too many great difficulties in the lives of ordinary people on the reserves.

We brought these grassroots people together in a place in the middle of Winnipeg in a place called Birds Hill. These are grassroots people who cannot afford a big convention hall. They could not go to a place where the Liberal Party would support a big convention of native leaders, where it would cost thousands of dollars to rent a hall with fine food and fair drink. They were in Birds Hill trying to pitch tents, if they had one, finding a shrub bush, if they could find one. They were lying all over the park.

I was there for three days with them waiting for some of the invited Liberals who live very close to Birds Hill park to show up and show a little compassion to these people who were crying out for help. Not one of them showed up and did not care.

But, boy, they are wonderful. They are creating this marvellous deal in British Columbia without the consent of the people, without the care of the grassroots natives throughout British Columbia. Oh yes, they held a referendum in the Nisga'a area. I believe it was somewhere around 65% to 35%. It does not matter. They ignored the call and the cry of the people who were against it because they wanted one thing to happen. They liked the idea of moving in this direction. They were thrilled about it. They said to me, “Are you sure the billion dollars or whatever is paid in is going to be shared? Am I going to be able to own property? Is there any accountability?” The answer is no because accountability does not come from dictators. That is what this government is and it ought to hang its head in shame. One day it will answer for that.

[Grant McNally, Reform, Dewdney—Alouette, BC]

Mr. Speaker, imagine you and I are across a railway track with me on one side and you on the other side. We know there is a train coming down the track and we know there is a bridge out ahead. I think you and I would find a way to solve the problem to see if we could get the bridge fixed or the trestle back in place so that the train coming down the track would be able to continue on. I do not think we would stop to argue, complain or even debate about who is on the train or how fast it is coming and those kind of things. We would do our job and we would try to save the approaching train from being wrecked.

The minister of Indian affairs asked two questions earlier in this place. He asked what the Reform Party would do about Nisga'a and what about the details within the treaty. We have talked a lot about the details within the treaty and about the concerns we have with it. The bigger principle involved is stepping back and taking a look at the principle in agreement and the problems with it. Just as you and I would not argue about the individuals and the details about the train and we would try to fix the bridge, we would like to focus our attention on the bigger picture of what is wrong with this agreement. I will answer the two questions put by the minister of Indian affairs in a few minutes.

The Liberal government has demonstrated by its actions that it cares very little for the people of British Columbia. The Liberals have demonstrated their lack of care in their approach to Bill C-9. They limited debate to four and a half hours for members of the opposition at second reading. They voted against giving all British Columbians the right to vote for or against this treaty by way of a referendum and they have given notice of closure once again on this bill. Actions speak louder than words and the Liberal government has spoken loud and clear about how it views Bill C-9.

Let us take a look at our role as legislators. It is our duty to scrutinize and examine legislation that will have a profound effect on people's lives. That is our job. That is the job of the government and that is the job of the opposition, to scrutinize legislation and make sure it meets the test not just for this time but for future days as well, and this bill falls short of that test.

The Liberal government is more committed to getting speedy passage of this bill through the House than it is to actually doing its job of examining the fundamental principles of this bill and how it will affect British Columbians and Canadians in the future. Its actions demonstrate that it is more concerned about photo opportunities than it is about the hard work of objectively examining the legislation or about how this treaty will impact British Columbians and all Canadians. It is a shame that seems to be what the actions of the government are indicating quite clearly to British Columbians.

If the government truly cared about making sure this legislation was examined and scrutinized, it would dedicate the time to do so. It has not done that. It has closed off debate at different stages. It does not want a full airing and hearing of this treaty. It has a huge effect on British Columbians and will for future generations. That is why the members of the opposition are speaking loudly on this and trying to get the government to pay attention to it. It is not simply another piece of legislation that we deal with in one afternoon in this place and treat it like many others that may come up. It is not simply a piece of legislation that we can just look at and not pay attention to.

We have concerns that that is exactly what the government and members from other parties are doing. They are sleeping at the wheel. This is a piece of legislation that is going to have a profound impact in British Columbia and across the country for now and for future generations. If we do not do due diligence in this place while we have the opportunity, the government will be recorded as the one that failed to do its job. The members of the opposition will not include themselves in that category. We will point out, piece by piece, our concerns with this legislation because it is flawed and needs to be dealt with more thoroughly.

This legislation fails to give British Columbians the right to vote through a referendum on the Nisga'a treaty. That is something the Reform Party would do. The Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development asked that question earlier.

This legislation does not include a constitutional exclusion of this treaty in the areas of self-government and fishing. In other words, if this treaty is passed it will be protected by section 35 of the constitution. Forever entrenching this treaty by protection of the constitution, it will not be able to be changed. We have serious difficulties with that.

The treaty and the government do not acknowledge the overlapping claim of these Nisga'a lands by other aboriginal groups such as the Gitksan and the Gitanyow. Those are basic fundamental flaws with this piece of legislation that the government is continuing to ignore. That is why we must urge the government to stop this approach of ramming this piece of legislation through so that it can have some kind of photo opportunity or be able to say that it was the group that brought this great legislation through. For future generations, what the test of time will tell is that this is the group that did not do its job. It is the group that failed when it had an opportunity to examine this legislation and put a good framework in place.

There will be other treaties coming. If that group there is not committed to making the changes necessary, then this group will do everything within our power to form government, to go to that side, to put some common sense and balance back into this place and into legal processes in this country.

We see through its actions that the government does not seem concerned about this. In fact, it is treating this as another piece of housekeeping legislation. That is all I can say because of the actions that go along with the words it is attaching.

I have questions for the government. I have questions as to where are the members from British Columbia on this issue? What are they saying? What do they think about this legislation? Are they standing in support of it? Are they going to stand in their places in the House and defend this agreement? Are they going to ignore the will of British Columbians, the people who elected them? There is silence from the Liberal members from British Columbia coming back from the other side.

[John Duncan, Reform, Vancouver Island North, BC]

The silent seven.

[Grant McNally, Reform, Dewdney—Alouette, BC]

The silent seven as my colleague remarks.

Opposition to this bill has been put forward by many different people. I think the government would like to compartmentalize the opposition as being just the Reform Party so it can ignore us. Well, it is not just the Reform Party that opposes this agreement. There are many different voices that oppose this agreement, including the Liberal Party of British Columbia. The leader of the official opposition in British Columbia, the B.C. Liberal leader, opposes this treaty. In fact, he said some things that are pretty harsh about the group over there. He said “Nothing will do more to erode public trust and confidence in this most important endeavour than to sidestep and short-circuit public debate. A government under my leadership will not accept this Nisga'a treaty as a template for future settlements”.

The B.C. Liberal leader is opposed to this piece of legislation. I believe the B.C. Liberal Party has even brought a case before the courts to determine some very serious questions about the treaty.

Once again, we urge members of the Liberal government, the members from British Columbia who represent the government, to do their job, to examine the legislation and to do everything in their power to stop it from going forward in its current package because it does not meet the test. Their names will be recorded as the ones in history who had an opportunity to put in place a positive framework but failed. Woe to them.

We will continue to stand in this place and work to make positive changes to avoid the kind of train wreck approach on which the Liberal government is continuing.

[Bill Gilmour, Reform, Nanaimo—Alberni, BC]

Mr. Speaker, throughout the day we have quoted a number of people from British Columbia who appeared at the hearings last Friday. They did not have the opportunity to appear before the standing committee because, as we are all aware, it was stacked unfavourably. There was no neutrality. The witnesses who wished to appear who were against the Nisga'a deal did not get much of a hearing.

I would like to quote Mr. Harry Bell-Irving, who is a director of the Citizen's Voice. I have taken a few of his thoughts, because I do not have the time to go through them all, but there are some excellent points that I would like to put on the record. He stated:

The Government of Canada was represented by the Department of Indian and Northern Affairs, which stood in a position of trust with respect to the Nisga'a, and accordingly, was in a position of conflict with respect to all other Canadians. In support of this statement, it is interesting to note that the Canadians who take this position most strongly are aboriginal Canadians living in the Nisga'a area, who claim that significant rights belonging to them have been given to the Nisga'a and are protesting.

These aboriginal Canadians are not Nisga'a and they are having their lands taken away.

Mr. Bell-Irving continued:

These protesting aboriginals have already launched court proceedings to try and regain their rights. I submit that the people of Canada have had no true representation at the federal level....With one important exception, mainly amendments introduced dealing with questions as to the certainty of future benefits, the final agreement passed in the British Columbia legislature contained no significant amendment to the agreement in principle tabled in 1996.

Basically it was the original document. Does that sound familiar? It is the same story.

The NDP also resorted to a form of closure and rammed the bill through the legislature with great haste and in contempt of democratic process. The NDP never consulted the people at large as to the parameters of the agreement, and have refused to let the people of British Columbia have the opportunity to vote on a referendum to approve or disapprove the agreement.

The Liberals last week did exactly the same thing in the House. We put forward a motion that the Liberal federal government hold a referendum in British Columbia, and it refused.

I contend that if it were in Ontario or Quebec it would have been an entirely different story. The government simply does not care about the west.

Mr. Bell-Irving continued:

If you are to ask me what is wrong with the Nisga'a agreement, my answer, unfortunately, would be to say a very great deal. It is badly drawn and ambiguous in many places. There are many sub-agreements yet to be finalized. The Nisga'a agreement will create a right to fish based on race. It grants the right to the Nisga'a to make laws which in certain circumstances will be superior to the laws of Canada and British Columbia.

I will repeat that because it is important. It grants the right to the Nisga'a to make laws which in certain circumstances will be superior to the laws of Canada and British Columbia. Is that what Canadians want in a modern treaty?

It provides for Nisga'a citizenship and that only Nisga'a citizens can vote for the Nisga'a government. Think of it; a state within Canada with a separate citizenship in which Canadian citizens cannot vote. Are there to be 60 or more such states within British Columbia? What a disaster for British Columbia, what a disaster for Canada. The federal and provincial governments have said many misleading things in support of the agreement. One of them is that it will create certainty, implying that we should not nitpick about small details and get on with it. I submit that the only certainty the Nisga'a agreement will create is that for years to come there will be uncertainty because various aspects of the agreement will be before the courts.

Already a number of court actions have been commenced....The most serious flaw in the Nisga'a agreement is with respect to the self-government rights granted to the Nisga'a. These rights have been deceitfully described by the federal and British Columbia governments as being similar to local or municipal rights. Yet in 14 different instances, the self-government rights provide and I quote: “In the event of an inconsistency or conflict between the Nisga'a law and a federal or provincial law, the Nisga'a law will prevail to the extent of the inconsistency or conflict”.

Again, is this what we want? I thought we were looking for one law and one country. This adds another layer of government which in my mind and from what I am hearing from the people in my riding is not wanted.

He continued:

The implications to me are very frightening....No business, profession or trade can carry on except under Nisga'a law. As is the case in a number of places in the act, there is the pap that accreditation must be in accordance with the law of the rest of the country, or the law of British Columbia, but that really isn't of significance, (because) the self-government rights are contained in land claims treaty, they will be constitutionalized and can only be amended according to the constitutional process, and it is my understanding that they cannot be amended without the consent of the Nisga'a.

Therefore, it is a closed door. Why would the government set these powers in constitutional concrete without first having a trial period to see if they are working out?

There have been other treaties before the House. For example, the Yukon treaty was before the House in the last parliament and it was not constitutionalized. It was a separate bill. I have to ask why the government is taking this route when the Yukon bill of a few years ago, which was a separate bill, was not constitutionalized. Why would it constitutionalize rights in this treaty? It makes me wonder. I have to ask what is the agenda of the government. Where is it going?

Mr. Bell-Irving continued:

I recommend that the Nisga'a agreement be amended so as to remove self-government rights from the agreement, placing them in a separate agreement, which may be amended from time to time—

I think that is very sound advice. We have done that before in the House. I spent a year going through the Canadian Environmental Protection Act. The old bill stated that it would return to the House every five years. What is wrong with that? That is good legislation. Where is the government going? Exactly in the opposite direction. It is constitutionalizing this. It is closing the door. It will be there forever. We will not be able to amend it.

Another point of great concern are the resources, forestry and fisheries. For example, it was stated by Skeena Cellulose Inc. in the Nisga'a area that should the treaty go forward Skeena Cellulose would sue for $75 million in lost timber resources. Guess what? The province bought Skeena Cellulose. That gets rid of that issue, I suppose, but I am not sure it was a wise use of tax dollars. The fishery is of more concern because the fishery is tied to race. Remember, this is the first of 60 such agreements. In my view, if we carry this forward to 60 agreements there will not be a commercial fishery in Canada. There will not be any fish left to divide. There will be a native commercial fishery, but what about the non-native commercial fishery? We only have so much of the pie to cut up.

There was the Marshall decision which concerned the fishery on the east coast. I am a member of the fisheries committee which was holding hearings last week on the east coast. The Marshall decision, which was clarified by the supreme court, is finally getting through the fog and coming to the middle ground. What is finally coming through with the number of cases that have been before the supreme court is that if we err too far on one side treaty rights will be violated. However, if we err too far on the other side and affect the rights of the people already in the fishery, that will not work either.

The people who are already in fisheries, forestry and other areas who are being pushed out because of these treaties will go to the supreme court, and so they should. We will have years and years of litigation because of this treaty. Again, why? Why could we not start with an open process? There was clearly no open process in British Columbia. It was all closed.

We should have a process that all or most people agree with, have a referendum at the end of it, and then we would have what people want. We are not going in that direction at all. We are going in exactly the opposite direction, creating another layer of government that we do not need. At the end of the day we want laws and rights that apply to each and every one of us, regardless of where we come from.

[Peter Goldring, Reform, Edmonton East, AB]

Mr. Speaker, as the member of parliament for Edmonton East I am pleased to participate in the debate at report stage of Bill C-9, an act to give effect to the Nisga'a final agreement. My objective is to place on the permanent Hansard record my concern that the implementation of this agreement amounts to indirectly effecting a permanent constitutional amendment, and I believe that is wrong. I also wish to use this opportunity to raise concerns about any course of action in the House that would bind future generations of legislators.

Since no decision or action in the House should ever be considered to be infallible and since our history has shown us time and again that courses of action must change as circumstances change, we should not set a template with the Nisga'a agreement that cannot later be reshaped.

It is generally accepted that the Nisga'a agreement may well serve as a model for future agreements with other aboriginal groups, particularly in British Columbia. Should we as legislators not be concerned that the implementation of this agreement may enshrine in stone a model that would be better subject to later reconsideration and refinement?

I therefore believe that the bill under discussion should have the following qualification: that this agreement is not intended to be and is not in fact, in substance or in form a constitutional amendment and that, accordingly, the agreement may be subject to later reconsideration, revision or amendment by parliament.

With the controversies and court clarifications surrounding the Marshall case, it becomes clear that even justices of the Supreme Court of Canada are fallible. Governments and government policies are similarly fallible. One of the important benefits of any democracy is that governments can be changed, which provides a check against errors being perpetrated. A new government may assess the policies of its predecessor and declare them to be wrong, redundant or badly thought out. The courage and self-confidence of a government in significantly altering or abandoning an entrenched course of action is very important to Canada's future welfare, in aboriginal matters or otherwise.

In short, no government should act in a way such as to permanently bind its successors, unless specifically intending to do so by way of constitutional amendment.

In aboriginal treaty matters, this becomes particularly important given that much of the evidence that formed the basis of current decision making and treaty interpretation is far from being indisputable. Historical renderings of oral traditions are full of nuance, significant differences in interpretation and not easily verified independently. These evidentiary weaknesses become quite evident in the Marshall case. Any discussion based on oral tradition must, by its very nature, be considered to be interpretative rather than grounded on objective fact.

Remembrance Day has recently passed. At this time and in years prior, people were reminded of past prejudices toward aboriginal veterans that give to current grievances. After the second world war, aboriginal veterans had to choose between renouncing their aboriginal status and receiving post-war benefits available to all veterans. Understandably, most were reluctant to give up their birthright. They believed then and believe now that it was unjust to discriminate in post-war veterans benefits based on race. I agree with them and have consistently advocated their position in my capacity as Her Majesty's Loyal Opposition critic for veterans affairs.

On September 25, 1998 my colleague from North Vancouver introduced a motion that added clarity to my position with respect to aboriginal veterans. In the context of the current debate, it is very important to remind the House that differences of opinion concerning the Nisga'a agreement do not impede the recognition of general injustices that must be addressed.

We might question how this veteran inequality came about. Simply, it is due to a government trying to balance, many would say juggle, the special rights of some with equal rights of all and then deciding to favour the few, in this case at the cost of aboriginal war veterans rights. Seeing how the federal government absolutely fumbled the play toward handling war veterans rights, it boggles the mind to think how the government will ever decide on the rights of equality for all Canadians. Looking at the Nisga'a agreement, there is an entrenchment of refusal to permit all Canadians on Nisga'a lands to have the same voting rights. What sort of equality is this?

The Bloc Quebecois on my left are salivating over the implications of the ever more special status of government by and for the people of Nisga'a. It is salivating at the opportunity to see these rights enshrined and then interpreted for its own purposes.

With a government so devoid of solutions that it could not resolve the aboriginal war veterans' concerns in 55 years, what chance do we have that it will not interpret the Nisga'a agreement as constitutionally carved in stone, thus becoming precedent setting for separatist purposes.

Advocating a just cause on behalf of the aboriginal community should not blind a parliamentarian to the fact that all such claims are not equally just. A major consequence of the Nisga'a agreement will be the creation of a self-governing community based on race, notwithstanding the fact that non-aboriginals and non-Nisga'a aboriginals have lived and worked in this area of British Columbia for many years. The nature of the franchise of the non-Nisga'a to democratically influence the future of the area is far from certain.

It is also important to remember that the majority of the positions favouring aboriginal self-government do not involve economic self-sufficiency as a precondition to such self-government. The Nisga'a agreement is no different and, in this respect, quite comparable to the creation of Nunavut: self-government which is not preceded by economical self-sufficiency; and self-government funded by settlement payments, which does little to eliminate dependency.

With the 1992 rejection of the Charlottetown accord by the Canadian people, the notion of any distinct society was soundly rejected. We should remember that the distinct aboriginal society component of the Charlottetown accord was similarly rejected. While non-aboriginal Canadians appear prepared to acknowledge that degrees of redress are required to correct past injustices, few are prepared to advocate the creation of third world republics. Few are prepared to advocate the balkanization of Canada through the implementation of hundreds of similar agreements. Few are prepared to support the dedication of taxpayer revenues to fund such balkanization or the self-government falsehoods associated with continuing dependencies. Dependency on public funds, however caused, comes with an obligation to use one's best efforts to end such dependency. A perpetual victim attitude is far from being currently defensible as a means to justify such dependency.

Let me refer once again to my current involvement with the grievances of aboriginal veterans. They are not victims; they cannot be. They are defenders of Canada, all of whom volunteered to defend Canada. They have been subject to an injustice for over half a century. Their current state in life, for better or for worse, is not blamed on this injustice. Perhaps this is because, based on their military background, aboriginal veterans appreciate that individual strength and initiative is necessary to overcome any adversity. In the heat of battle, putting on the victim cloak and blaming others simply increases the likelihood of the battle being lost. The focus must be the larger collective good and one's individual contribution to that good.

In this debate, I hope that the focus will similarly be on the larger collective good, particularly in the longer term, and how our actions here may contribute to that collective good.

[Art Hanger, Reform, Calgary Northeast, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to rise this afternoon and add my voice to the long list of voices that have expressed concern over the Nisga'a treaty when it comes to our particular party, and particularly to those voices out in the province of British Columbia. Being from the adjacent province, my riding of Calgary Northeast, I also recognize the concerns expressed by my colleagues, especially those from British Columbia.

There cannot be a good, valid or an arguable reason for passing the Nisga'a treaty without further debate on these much needed amendments that the Reform Party is encouraging today. In so doing, the Liberal government is again resorting to an arrogant tactic that has marked its tenure and power and which has characterized so many Liberal governments of the past that have tried to ramrod dangerous and divisive social change through parliament.

Why is the government so afraid to debate this issue? Why is the government so nervous about discussing the particulars of this treaty? Why does the government label all opponents of this treaty in the cowardly manner that it does? Why does the government constantly seek to invoke closure, an undemocratic, cowardly and desperate act that attempts to smother free speech in the House? In its actions, the government is no different than the NDP government in B.C. which has also ramrodded the Nisga'a treaty through the provincial legislature against huge opposition.

What is most disturbing about the attitude of both governments is the dismissal of that opposition and the dismissal of the democratic consultation and open debate process. Despite deep and disturbing concerns about this treaty, critics are ignored and uncertainty is chided. The fact of the matter is that these concerns have to be addressed. This uncertainty must be acknowledged. This is a controversial treaty that threatens to change the shape of the Canadian nation. It will cost taxpayers billions of dollars. It will rework the justice system and entrench a cast system in our society.

Every day more Canadians are realizing that this treaty will be a catalyst for racial intolerance and not a cure.

Canadians are getting angry that they were not consulted about this deal and were not told all the facts. Now they want to be consulted. They want the facts now. They will get the facts sooner or later. We will not let this legislation pass without opposition. We will not sit back and watch the government ignore the will of the people.

The Nisga'a treaty is a fatally flawed treaty that is bad for natives and non-natives. The Prime Minister was effusive in his praise of this treaty today, but 30 years ago he recognized the need to integrate natives into Canadian society when, as the Indian affairs minister, he advocated that policy. I suppose he still had a sense of individual rights in those days and of all Canadians being equal under the law.

The Nisga'a treaty is a giant step backward into a world where status and power is defined by one's race and position and where national unity is divided into fiefdoms of privilege. With the passage of the Nisga'a treaty, we are embracing a regressive social system that could easily have been designed in the middle ages. To begin with, all the residents on Nisga'a land will not have the right to vote for their local governments under the Nisga'a treaty. Only the Nisga'a peoples will be allowed to vote. Non-Nisga'a residents are excluded on the basis of race. This is not only immoral but unconstitutional.

How could any Canadian agree to a treaty with this kind of a provision? There is one reason why the B.C. Liberal Party opposed the Nisga'a treaty, and in a B.C. Liberal Party guide to the Nisga'a treaty, this objection and others were outlined for B.C. voters to see. It is a pity that the federal Liberals were not affected by the same degree of common sense that seems to prevail at the provincial level. It was heartening to hear the B.C. Liberal leader, Gordon Campbell, condemn this act, condemn the closure that was attempted to be foisted upon this parliament and condemn the process that was pushed upon the people in British Columbia.

It is this creation of a two race system that we in the Reform Party find most disgusting in the Nisga'a treaty. Can we think for a moment about what we are saying in this document? Can we consider for a moment what the consequences of this treaty will be? Where has the passion for democracy, for individual freedom and for equality under the law gone in this country and in this parliament? Is a race based society justifiable if those judged to possess special status just happen to be non-white?

Other countries have attempted to define their rights and freedoms on the basis of race. We have condemned their philosophy. This House has condemned their philosophy. We have opposed their tyranny and have died fighting in the belief that all people are created equal, as my colleague from Edmonton pointed out.

Can members imagine the reaction if we denied rights and freedoms to a specific race in the rest of Canada? Yet we are prepared to grant one race status over another because it involves native land claims. This represents a perilous disconnection of thought and judgment, and one that we ought to oppose at every opportunity.

The Nisga'a treaty has been identified as the balkanization of Canada. We need only to look to the Balkans to see how tragic this transformation can be. Today, over 4,000 Canadian military personnel are in the Balkans struggling to maintain a peace after years of brutal civil war. The region has divided into nation states based on religion and ethnicity and subdivided again into warring factions.

The Canadian lesson has been that there is strength in unity and integration. We cannot have two political systems, two styles of government and two justice systems.

It is the awesome potential for a national tragedy that makes the acceptance of the Nisga'a treaty so fraught with difficulties, for truly this agreement has been hailed as a template for other native land claims across B.C., and indeed across Canada.

Are we to deliberate on this form of self-government, one based on race and consider it positive for Canada? Is that what we have to deliberate upon? And, at what cost? The Nisga'a treaty will cost somewhere in the neighbourhood of $490 million according to the B.C. government, the treaty's most earnest supporter. It could well be more.

When this treaty, which is a template for all other land claims agreements, is applied to other negotiations the cost will be much more, perhaps in the tens of billions of dollars, and the cost will keep climbing. The government in passing this legislation is serving a writ of sentence to upcoming generations in the country, a sentence of taxation to pay for inequality for non-Indians and special status for Indians under Canadian law. It is also establishing a tragic political legacy.

The government has made an art out of its catering to special interest groups. It cannot even think in terms of individual Canadians who hold inalienable rights. It thinks only in terms of competing groups and of pitting these groups against each other for the sake of political expediency. The country will pay dearly for this slavish devotion to special interests.

The Liberals have not dealt very well with this crisis. Instead they have planted the seeds for an even greater crisis with the Nisga'a treaty. Overnight they have significantly raised the spectre of racial unrest in the country and they do not even seem to care.

They care so little that they have avoided any sort of comprehensive debate as to how the Nisga'a treaty will affect the future and impact upon all our lives.

[Maurice Vellacott, Reform, Wanuskewin, SK]

Mr. Speaker, I wished I did not have to speak on a topic like this today because it would really never have come this far if we had had true democratic debate across the country. If there had been a referendum in B.C. I dare say that this would not be in this place today.

With some regret I speak on Bill C-9, the Nisga'a final agreement act. I share with my colleagues on this side of the House, the official opposition party, some of the concerns with this implementation legislation that would be brought to the province of British Columbia. I do not believe it will be good for the native people in that province, nor the non-native people there and across the rest of the country, especially if it is the template pattern for what occurs in my own province, my backyard and throughout the rest of Canada.

I reiterate some of my concerns with some that have been expressed by my colleagues, about the implications this treaty would have for how the Canadian constitution functions. The position of the Reform Party, and I read it for the record, states that:

—any form of Indian self-government will be a delegated form—

In other words, like unto a municipal form of government.

—and all lands within the borders of Canada will remain part of Canada. The laws of Canada (and the Provinces and Territories) including the Canadian Constitution and the Charter of Rights and Freedoms will apply to Indian governments. Any laws enacted by Indian governments must conform with the laws of Canada.

In chapters 2 and 11 of the treaty, the provisions for self-government undermine this common sense understanding of how Indian governments must operate in conformity with Canadian laws. In the treaty, Nisga'a governance powers are considered an aboriginal treaty right within the meaning of section 35 of the Canadian constitution.

Entrenching of Nisga'a powers in a treaty will in effect create a third order of government in Canada. In concrete terms the treaty grants the Nisga'a government paramount power in 14 different areas and shared jurisdiction in another 16 fields. That is a constitutional change.

It is irresponsible on the part of the Liberal government to bring about such a fundamental change to our country, to the constitutional structure of Canada and to do it in such an undemocratic manner as it has been. It is incredible when one thinks of it that a de facto constitutional change would be made without input.

Too much of that agreement was hammered out in secrecy behind closed doors. Even certain members of the government of the province of British Columbia were unable to receive information with respect to the details of it. It was hidden from them.

When all was done, a fait accompli, it was brought to the government by the NDP in British Columbia and it was rammed through. Closure was invoked there as well. It was invoked halfway through the debate in that province.

At the federal level the official opposition represents 24 of the 34 seats in the province of British Columbia, the largest number of course. Again we see democracy being trampled on.

If this bill before us becomes law there is a clause in the agreement that will cripple the official opposition federally and provincially. That clause will ensure that no party to this agreement may challenge it once it is ratified. It is a very important clause because it will completely hobble the government in waiting once it becomes the government. Simply, many of those issues have not been addressed.

One of the major problems is that at least in a modern world power resides here with native government in a collective sense and not with native individuals.

I am also saddened to see the way this Nisga'a treaty conforms to the Liberal pattern of showing only respect, if one can even call it that, only to aboriginal band leadership and not showing the same respect for the ordinary person on the street, the grassroots, the ordinary band member in those communities. The treaty bypasses the individual and instead concentrates the economic and political power in the hands of the Nisga'a government, a collective sense. Individual Nisga'a people have no reason to be excited about this treaty and they are not. They do not have property rights in this treaty. Nor are their individual freedoms protected in the way that other Canadians have their freedoms protected.

It is unclear whether all the rights in the charter will even apply to the Nisga'a people. Under the terms of section 25 of the charter the courts must defer to collective aboriginal rights if they are deemed to conflict with charter rights. This places collective rights over individual rights and that means aboriginal government rights over the rights of individuals.

Also it was brought to our attention out there when hearing individuals that there are conflicting claims on the same land from other bands. The federal government must reach agreement with surrounding bands, including the Gitksan and the Gitanyow. We have overlapping claims against land proposed to be conveyed now under this Nisga'a treaty. Such agreement must be an accommodation satisfactory to the Gitksan and the Gitanyow leadership.

Briefing notes from the B.C. minister of agriculture show what state of anarchy it could create in terms of the whole of agriculture in the province of British Columbia. If it is used as a template for future land claims, it will cause significant disruptions to individuals ranchers, orchardists and farmers throughout the Okanagan. Over 1,000 farms in the Okanagan Valley, represented by my colleagues here, will be greatly affected by this. Not only does it threaten the commercial interests of those ranchers, orchardists and farmers, but it threatens the whole B.C. agricultural land reserve.

The NDP briefing note went on to say that the majority of a crown agricultural land reserve would likely be consumed by land claims for a total of approximately 2.5 million hectares. Using Nisga'a as a template, and God forbid, it will not only create economic uncertainty in certain parts adjoining there, but throughout the rest of the province as well. They know this. The Liberals, the NDP and the Tories know this, but they insist that their extreme measures are best. They know what is best for British Columbians and have not even given them a referendum to indicate it themselves.

If the Nisga'a treaty were to be a template, and we believe there is every possibility that it will be and in fact it is already becoming that for some, it is the first of 50 or more treaties in British Columbia. There is no clear way to know exactly how much these treaties will cost.

One 1999 study by R.M. Richardson and Associates estimates that the total cost of these treaties could be as high as $40 billion. That is a pretty powerful big sum of money.

As I said, the Nisga'a treaty is already serving as a precedent in other treaty negotiations in B.C. where other people are not being consulted about these very sweeping changes by way of referendum. In fact B.C. law does require that a referendum be held to approve constitutional changes. There are lawsuits presently pending before the courts on this issue. With the creation of 50 or more governments in B.C., economic development in much of the province will be severely restricted, hamstrung. It will be economic anarchy. Long term economic development will take a pretty heavy hit.

The Nisga'a treaty has also served as a model for the Inuit agreement in principle, negotiated in Labrador and some of the provisions in that agreement, which covers more than a quarter of Labrador, mirror unfortunately those found in the Nisga'a agreement.

The fact that it will be a model for treaties yet to be negotiated as a result of the ruling by the Supreme Court in the Delgamuukw case in 1997, existing treaties in the rest of Canada may also be reopened to renewed negotiations. They will be opening probably the Treaty 8 in Alberta. I understand that has already begun. The Nisga'a treaty will certainly be an important model for other bands, reopening negotiations since their own settlements of a century ago are very modest by comparison.

I want to state some of the Reform Party's policy for the record again. It has perhaps been heard but needs to be said again. The Nisga'a final agreement strongly contradicts one of the key founding principles of the Reform Party, namely that we believe in true equality of Canadian citizens with equal rights and responsibilities for all.

Another Reform Party policy found in the blue book states that the Reform Party's ultimate goal in aboriginal matters is that all aboriginal people be full and equal participants in Canadian citizenship, indistinguishable in law and treatment from other Canadians.

Householders and 10 percenters have been sent to 534,000 households in British Columbia. Thus far, about 10,000 have been returned, which is a very good response rate. Of the results tabulated 89% of the respondents do not believe that the public has had adequate opportunity to provide input into the Nisga'a treaty; 92% believe the people of B.C. should have the right to vote on the principles of the treaty; 91.5% want their member of parliament to vote against the Nisga'a treaty.

I could go through Liberal members' ridings which indicate a very high percentage, upper 80% and 90%, who want their member to vote against the treaty. Poll information tends to support the fact that a majority of British Columbians oppose the Nisga'a treaty. Surveys done by our own members corroborate that. All around we are very clear on that.

In closing, I want to indicate some of the important principles as far as Reform is concerned here. We believe that the Indian Act discriminates against aboriginal people. It sets them apart from other Canadians. We recommend the Indian Act be abolished, that a new relationship between aboriginals and governments be established so that we encourage less dependency on the federal government and more control by aboriginals over their own affairs, but under a municipal level, a delegated level of government.

Reform calls for open negotiations, public, unlike the secret negotiations that happened with respect to the Nisga'a treaty. With regard to self-government, as I said, it needs to be a delegated level of government. It needs to be democratic, accountable and subject to the laws of Canada.

With regard to self-reliance Reform believes that the improvement in the standard of living of aboriginal people can be achieved by removing the barriers to full and equal participation in Canada's economic life. Too many impediments over the years have been imposed on the creativity and the diligence of native people. They should have the option of receiving government benefits directly. They should have access to the auditor general to make sure that local governments are accountable for management of their finances.

I believe we will rue the day that we allowed this bill to go through. Of course, we as the opposition have done everything we could to stall this bill so that we would get a better deal for native people, for Indian people, across the country of Canada.

[Derek Lee, Liberal, Scarborough—Rouge River, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order. Earlier today the House gave its unanimous consent to concurrence in a report of the Procedure and House Affairs Committee dealing with the televising of the standing committees of the House. In that motion the report referred to was the fourth report, and inadvertently that report should have been described as the 48th report of the procedure and House affairs committee.

I am asking for the consent of the House now to modify that motion to refer to the 48th report of that particular committee.

[The Deputy Speaker]

Is it agreed that the motion be amended as suggested by the hon. parliamentary secretary?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[Some hon. members]

No.

[The Deputy Speaker]

It being 5.30 p.m. the House will now proceed to the consideration of Private Members' Business as listed on today's order paper.

Criminal Code

[Art Hanger, Reform, Calgary Northeast, AB]

moved that Bill C-209, an act to amend the Criminal Code (prohibited sexual acts), be read the second time and referred to a committee.

Mr. Speaker, it is a pleasure to rise tonight to seek the support of the House for my private member's bill, Bill C-209, which will raise the age of consent from 14 to 16 years. As there has been much talk of late about issues of consent and sexual predators and their attack on our young, I believe this is a timely presentation.

Bill C-209 would therefore amend those sections of the Criminal Code dealing with prohibited sexual acts committed with children who are under the age of 14 years or in the presence of other children under the age of 14 years. In effect, the bill would allow for criminal charges to be brought against any adult who engages in sexual relations with a person younger than the age of 16.

I first introduced this bill in the House in 1996 in the wake of reports that a 14 year old Edmonton girl was having sex with her father's AIDS infected lover; a repugnant offence. As repugnant as the situation was, the police were powerless to charge the man. The question, of course, that would come to mind would be why. The law determines the age of consent to be 14 years. Unfortunately, as a result of this sexual encounter, it was a life sentence for the young lady. Nothing came out of it as far as protection for her or anybody else of her age found in a similar circumstance.

Three years later, I believe there are even more reasons to introduce this bill and to change the criminal code. Ever since the B.C. Supreme Court struck down laws prohibiting child pornography, we have heard arguments that if children can engage in sex, why should they not appear in pornographic pictures. This sort of twisted reasoning, one that points logic on its head and seeks to avoid any moral accountability, is exactly why we need to amend the criminal code in this area and in many others when it comes to sex acts against children.

We live in an age where perverts proudly display their deviant behaviour as a badge of honour. Societal constraint no longer seems to serve as a means of preserving moral order. Sexual predators need to be controlled by specific constraints that are codified in law.

I can think of a couple of situations that arose in this province alone that required substantial police investigation over many months and substantial court action accumulating evidence and building a case to convict numerous predators who had preyed on numerous young people, most under the age of 16.

It is a telling affair when we look at those charged and who they represent. They were people in authority. They were street people who were part of a gang or a loosely organized group with one common purpose, to pick on our young children.

The argument used, in many of those cases, by those who performed such acts against young people, was that they had done many of those kids a favour by taking them off the street and giving them a comfortable place to stay. Is that an argument? I do not believe it is an argument. It is rationalization beyond even reason.

There has been some criticism over the timing of this bill. One hon. member insisted that although this bill is sound, that it would be inappropriate for the Reform Party to introduce it at this time given the events of the last few weeks which involved a former justice critic of the official opposition. I do not wish to confuse the specifics of this bill with those of a legal case, but the issue has been raised and I believe it must be faced.

To suggest that this party has lost its moral right to defend those social issues that it holds dear because of the actions of one of its members is an argument without reason. It is an attack upon the man and not the idea. The hon. member who mentioned this so-called contradiction is aware of that. There is human frailty in every party caucus but it does not destroy the principles for which that party stands. We as a party have condemned such actions in the past and we will condemn such actions in the future.

Now is the time to pass this legislation. We need to do it now so children will be allowed to be children and not forced into early sexual activity by some with other desires. We need to protect our children from sexual predators who are using Canadian law as a shield, using coercion to gain consent.

The unfortunate part with a predator is that he is probably one of the most manipulative of all criminals. Over time, he will place himself in a position where he will have access to youngsters. I have seen it and, as a former police officer, I have investigated such complaints. It is very tragic to see where the tentacles of this type of criminal activity have reached. It is in our churches, our governments, our schools, our society, on our streets and on the blocks where we live. It is very pervasive.

The criminal code does not criminalize sexual activity with or between persons 14 years old or over unless it takes place in a relationship of trust or authority over the young person. This is another stipulation.

It is shocking that in Canada the voting age is 18. In provinces such as British Columbia, the legal drinking age is 19 and the legal age for obtaining a learner's permit for driving is 16, yet the age of sexual consent remains at 14.

I am well aware that many other groups, lobbyists and concerned individuals are also pushing to see the legislation changed. Some would like to see it as high as 18, and I really have no objection to that. There is good sound reason for it.

One of the rationales expressed by the Calgary Local Council of Women was that this subject had become prominent in the last year. Dr. Paul Cameron of the Family Research Institute of Colorado Springs, Colorado said that research has found that there is a clear relationship between intergenerational sexual activity and promiscuity in later life, both homosexual and heterosexual.

Further, they have found that pernicious sex tends to produce promiscuity. They found that the promiscuous tend to make poor marriage partners and poor marriage partners make poor parents. They say that this is a fact with medical, social and political implications. I think this has some good, sound, scientific basis.

We are not the same society that we were in 1882 when the criminal code was created and the age of consent was established as 14. Child pornography or child prostitution was little known a century ago and most people would never have imagined the possibility of such things occurring. Today, in the wake of the sexual revolution, we face a barrage of sexual marketing, much of it concerning children. The proliferation of the Internet, while increasing society's potential for education, growth and improvement, has also radically heightened the production and distribution of obscenity, filth and vice. Hence, children are more at risk now, in this multimedia society, then they ever have been before.

As legislators, I believe we have a moral obligation to protect the young and vulnerable in our society. We can start by making it more difficult for sexual predators to prey upon our children's innocence by raising the age of consent and, with that law well-established, using the law to its fullest if need be and enforcing it.

We as legislators have a moral obligation, yet some in the government would have us abdicate that moral responsibility to the courts. They would sit idly by while unelected judges make the moral decisions for us, as these detached individuals make decisions that will affect the lives of Canadians everywhere.

We have to choose the direction of the course of law and not have the direction charted for us. We need to set the moral agenda and not have that agenda set for us. We need to take back our responsibility for the moral climate in the country and stop insisting that we are powerless to affect the edicts of the supreme court.

I would reiterate that our children are our most precious resource. They are also one of the most vulnerable groups in our society. They are likely to be manipulated or coerced into a sexual relationship with an adult for any number of reasons, a relationship that may, on the periphery, appear consensual. What a child anticipates to be loving and caring is ultimately nothing less than exploitation if used in that fashion.

Some may argue that 14-year-olds are not ignorant about sex. This may be true, as it is hard to be ignorant about sex in a society that is quite clearly deluged with the subject. However, we must ask ourselves if at that age children have the experience and the maturity to make decisions about their own sexuality regardless of whether they consent.

Setting an age under which individuals can legally consent is not necessarily an arbitrary one. However, someone has to decide and better that we, as elected parliamentarians, through our constituents who are our mums, our dads and our grandparents, ultimately have the say. We should have the final say, not the courts. It should be decided here in the House and not by an unelected body such as the supreme court.

It is unfortunate my bill is not a votable one because I think it should be a time for accountability. The government side is raising the spectre of this issue after Reform has delivered for a number of years some strong messages in reference to the particular issue of sexual consent and predators of youngsters.

We should have unanimous consent to make this bill votable. It is not a partisan issue. It should not be a politically motivated issue. Surely we can agree on the basic moral agenda that is being outlined.

Over the past year I have been approached by members of the House from all parties. We have encouraged a non-partisan approach to issues such as this one. We all agree on the need for an active legislative approach that will define Canadian society rather than a reactive posture that allows others to define society for us.

Let us make no mistake. We cannot stand still. If we do not make the decisions other people will make them for us. I do not believe that is acceptable. Nor is it acceptable to our parents, grandparents, constituents or our children. We have been elected to do the right thing. Voting for this bill would be the right thing.

[The Deputy Speaker]

I am sorry to interrupt the hon. member but his time expired some time ago. I have been trying to signal to him. I understand it is 15 minutes since this is a non-votable item and the 15 minutes expired some time ago.

Committees Of The House

[Derek Lee, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to Leader of the Government in the House of Commons]

Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order. Consultations permit me to rise again on the matter that I raised a little earlier about the numbering of the report of the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs which was concurred in earlier this day.

The report dealt with the televising of standing committees of the House and should have been referred to as the 48th report. I seek consent of the House to amend the motion to read the 48th report.

[The Deputy Speaker]

Does the Parliamentary Secretary have unanimous consent of the House to amend the motion accordingly?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

The House resumed consideration of the motion that Bill C-209, an act to amend the Criminal Code (prohibited sexual acts), be read the second time and referred to a committee.

Criminal Code

[John Maloney, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada]

Mr. Speaker, I am please to rise to speak to Bill C-209, an act to amend the criminal code, prohibited sexual acts, introduced by the hon. member for Calgary Northeast. The Minister of Justice cannot support Bill C-209 at this time for three very compelling reasons.

First, on November 29, 1999, the Department of Justice released a consultation document entitled “Child Victims in the Criminal Justice System”. The document examines possible changes to the criminal code and the Canada Evidence Act to improve protection for children from extreme harm by adults. The paper examines some of the most pressing issues and sets out options for change.

More specifically, areas being considered include the creation of further specific offences that may be committed against children, sentencing to protect children from those who might reoffend, and facilitating of children's testimony.

The release of the document is actually another step toward a broader and needed public consultation with all Canadians. The justice department is concerned with the breadth of possible implications of any change to the criminal code on young persons. It considers legislation of this nature to be premature. By undertaking very full consultations the department is taking these concerns to all Canadians interested in the welfare of young children. This process already began through early consultations with provincial and territorial officials.

Recently the department convened a conference on working together to protect children in late September of this year, a two day conference which I attended. The conference brought together provincial and territorial stakeholders, as well as professionals, non-governmental organizations and others working with children, in order to examine the issues of prevention and protection of children from harm.

At the conference the minister announced the release of the consultation paper, “Child Victims in the Criminal Justice System”. Responses are being sought from all Canadians concerned with the welfare of children. The paper also seeks the opinions of government officials, interested organizations, individuals and professionals dealing with children. Extra copies are available upon request at the Department of Justice Canadian Internet site or by calling the Department of Justice. Interested Canadians may also obtain a copy by writing to child victim consultation, family, children and youth section, Department of Justice, Ottawa.

Canadians who take an interest in the well-being of children are encouraged to take part in the consultation. The Department of Justice is also asking public servants, stakeholders, private individuals and professionals working with children to participate.

A copy of the consultation paper can be obtained by visiting the Internet site of the Department of Justice, or by writing to the Minister of Justice.

Bill C-209 proposes to amend several sections of the criminal code where the general minimum age of consent is part of the definition of sexual offences involving a child victim. The current age of consent to most forms of sexual activity is 14. There is an exception for consensual sexual activity between young people close in age and under 16.

Bill C-209 proposes to increase the general age of consent to sexual activity from 14 to 16. The age of the complainant in the existing exception would also be raised to 16. The proposed bill would also substitute under 16 for under 14 in connection with the powers of the court to make prohibition orders against offenders who are convicted, or who are discharged on conditions in a probation order, of certain sexual offences against a person under 14.

Bill C-209 raises valid concerns about the current protection provided to young people. For example, it has been argued that the present general age of consent, which is 14, is too low to provide effective protection from sexual exploitation by adults. The relatively low age may allow pimps, for example, to seduce young girls with the intention of luring them into prostitution without fear of prosecution. However the hon. member for Calgary Northeast seems to think that all that is involved in addressing the complex issue of age of consent is simply to change the age. That is not the case.

Protecting our children goes beyond a simple and arbitrary increase of the age of consent to sexual activity. It means addressing the broader issue of the safety and well-being of our children. Our objective is to develop and maintain effective comprehensive measures to protect children from serious injury and death at the hands of adults. The achievement of this objective rests with an essential collaborative effort of the provinces, the territories and the Government of Canada.

While the provision of services to children who are in need of protection is the responsibility of the provinces and territories, the assurance that appropriate offences and penalties are available for serious harm done to children is the responsibility of the Government of Canada. By targeting extreme forms of harm through the criminal code, the Government of Canada would provide strong support for provincial and territorial initiatives to protect children.

Second, the bill does not address the criminal code consequences of raising the general age at which sexual activity with young people would be criminalized. Bill C-209 proposes an amendment that is inconsistent with other relevant sections of the criminal code. For example, even though the complainant's age would be raised to 16 there is no consequential change to the age of the accused in the exception that prevents criminalizing consensual sexual activity between young people close in age and under 16.

The result is that a teenager over 16 who has consensual sex with a person under 16 but who is close in age would be engaging in criminal conduct. At the same time a younger teenager would be able to consent to sexual activity with a person close in age. This outcome would appear to be not only discriminatory but also contrary to common sense. Consequently Bill C-209 would not address the issue but rather would create confusion.

Third, the bill does not address the broader implications that arise from an amendment to the general age of consent. Since legislative changes do not take place in a vacuum, we must be aware that a change in the age of consent may have an impact on other legislation. For example, such changes may impact on the age 14 for providing assistance to child witnesses and for competency to testify in the criminal code and the Canada Evidence Act.

The question is whether an amendment to the age of consent to sexual activity would require amendments to other age related provisions of the criminal code. Furthermore, any arbitrary changes in the criminal code would be inconsistent with the government's commitment to consult with the provinces and territories before introducing amendments intended to support their efforts to protect children from abuse, neglect and exploitation.

In fact the justice minister is meeting with her provincial and territorial counterparts today and tomorrow on federal-provincial-territorial issues.

In conclusion, the need to review the issue of age of consent is a real concern. Children deserve to live in a safe society and to be protected from any forms of serious harm caused by adults.

To be effective, everyone in the community and every level of government must work together because we all have an important role to play. We believe all Canadians should be given an opportunity to express their views on this issue. We also believe that the age of consent should be dealt within the broader context of other age related issues in the criminal code.

That is why the Department of Justice issued its consultation paper and looks forward to learning from Canadians on this topic with sound and reasoned action to follow.

[Peter MacKay, Progressive Conservative, Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough, NS]

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to rise to speak to Bill C-209 which is before the House. It is unfortunate in many ways that we have to face very troubling and very shameful issues which come forward, but if we do not I am afraid the effect of not acting and not becoming proactive and involved is negligence on our part and will result in further harm.

I begin my remarks by congratulating the member for Calgary Northeast for bringing the matter before the House. Bill C-209 at second reading stage is a very positive attempt by the member to bring forward the matter. As I said at the outset it is shameful that we are discussing despicable behaviour which deals with children and their loss of innocence.

There are many outside the inner workings of our justice system, many outside this place, perhaps only those who have felt the sting of sexual intrusion, who can appreciate how serious an issue it truly is. There is a need for us to deal with it and not turn a blind eye, not be caught up in the rhetoric and the paternalistic and sometimes platitudinal approach often taken to serious issues of this nature.

Sadly sexual predators exist. They exist in every community. We know this from high profile cases such as the Mount Cashel incident in the seventies in Newfoundland and more recently in Toronto at Maple Leaf Gardens. Instances of child abuse are presented to us through the media in a barrage, which sometimes leads me to fear that a degree of insensitivity or desensitization occurs in today's society. It is laudable that we should be bringing these matters before the House of Commons, the people's place, for discussion.

Canadians hear daily accounts of the damage being done to other human beings, almost to the point where we are becoming thick-skinned. Abuse of positions of trust are particularly disturbing when the person in charge is the perpetrator and the person they should have been relying upon for protection.

The bill in many ways is an attempt to expand the envelope of protection, to broaden the range for which the sections of the criminal code as they currently apply would protect individuals in the age group of 14 to 16.

Recent legislation that we have seen before the House is also laudable in its attempts to notify individuals, particularly those in positions of trust who are entrusted to protect children. I am talking about parents and groups such as Scouts, police and child protection agencies. I am referring to Bill C-7 which will be back before the House of Commons in fairly short order. It would call upon the solicitor general's department to make public information about pardoned sex offenders who remain in the RCMP database and can be released upon request to these types of interested parties.

Since the government took office much of the problem with social services is that they have been cut and underfunded. As the parliamentary secretary said in his remarks, it is not enough to say that we can simply pass legislation which will fix these social problems, these social sores which exist in the area of sexual predators. It is the government's responsibility to put proper funding into these areas. We have seen this most recently with other legislation, like the new youth criminal justice act which will replace the Young Offenders Act. It is fine for the government to say it is going to front end efforts for rehabilitation or efforts to identify youth at risk, yet it is not putting proper funding into these areas.

Some may argue that the criminal code already protects children, that general provisions of the criminal code list the fundamental purposes and principles of sentencing and that sections 718 and 718.1 are definitely there for the protection of children. I would suggest that this bill furthers the envelope. I do not think that anyone should be apologetic for making efforts in this regard.

On the issue of disclosure, making information known to those who need the information, we should have a national registry for sex offenders similar to that of the United States.

As members of parliament, we need to focus clearly on the need to protect society from sexual predators. Sexual assault is not an issue of sex, it is an issue of power and control, oppression and dominance over children. It is a very weak and gutless act which is hard for many individuals to even imagine. It is very true that when it comes to the disclosure of information to protect those in our society who are most vulnerable, we have to do everything we can. We must be vigilant in every way to ensure the safety of children and to protect them when they are in this most vulnerable state.

There is a very high rate of recidivism when it comes to sexual offenders. This is extremely troubling, knowing that there is the potential for parents to leave children in the trust of an individual who may have a past that is unknown to the parents.

The law was put in place to prohibit access to children and is very much there to say that children in a certain age group are at a certain maturity level.

Contrary to what the parliamentary secretary has suggested, I do not think that is confusing at all. With maturity comes responsibility. We are more than aware that in some instances a 12 year old may be more streetwise than a 16 year old. There is discretion built into the criminal code that allows a judge, a prosecutor or a lawyer to make that judgment call on the facts before them. This particular change would simply expand the envelope and give the greater discretion that may be required as the circumstances might dictate. There are different circumstances that obviously need to be envisioned, and this legislative change would allow that.

There is certainly a consensus that the intent of this bill is aimed strictly at not confusion, but putting in place a system that would allow a 16 year old who is not of a mature state to be under a greater protective umbrella under the criminal code. The change envisions that.

The sections that are affected could be changed by the justice committee. If this bill were allowed to proceed through the House in the manner which is dictated by procedure, it would be brought to committee. There could be corresponding changes made to other sections of the code of which the hon. member from the government side spoke.

My colleague from Shefford has been very vocal on issues involving the protection of children and our party has been consistent in its demands of the government to protect children in matters that involve sexual predators. There is no question that we need to do more to ensure that individual cases, like the one we saw recently in Toronto involving 11 year Allison Parrot, who was raped and killed by Francis Carl Roy, do not happen. These types of cases are a shock to the sensibilities of every Canadian.

I do not take any issue whatsoever with what the hon. member is trying to do with this legislation. We need to dwell on this, to think more and to face the cold hard truth about what is happening in some Canadian communities. Sadly, we have seen time and time again these types of cases come before us. Frankly, I am disappointed with the government's response. Studies are simply not enough. We can do studies time and time again and gather information. Unfortunately, there is a phrase used in this place too often, which comes from the Department of Justice and is mouthed by the justice minister, that it will come in a timely fashion. As time goes on more children are vulnerable and more children can be harmed.

Individuals who are released into the community and are permitted to return to the place where they perpetrated these acts are a threat.

I personally introduced Bill C-242, a bill to amend the code with respect to the dispositions that judges may give, and it speaks specifically of a dwelling house, which is where many of these prohibited sexual acts occur. The impetus for the bill was a young woman in the province of Nova Scotia by the name of Donna Goler who suffered unimaginable abuse at the hands of family members in a dwelling house.

I am pleased to support the efforts of the hon. member. I suggest that his efforts in this regard are very sincere and well intended. This particular piece of legislation, as indicated, would expand the umbrella. It would provide further protection to the agencies that need it and it would provide further protection to the children who are most vulnerable. I look forward to seeing this matter proceed through the House.

[Michel Bellehumeur, Bloc, Berthier—Montcalm, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I have read Bill C-209 with a great deal of care. I looked at it from the point of view of the times we are living in.

Hon. members will understand that a bill must be looked at in relation to current practices, where our society is at, what is tolerated and what is not. Bills are not initiated solely out of personal convictions, although having such convictions helps. Their purpose is not self-gratification. They are made to be implemented and properly implemented in society.

I asked myself whether, generally speaking, society had changed its opinion on the approach to be used with young people aged 14 or 16. It depends on what legislation we are looking at. The existing legislation sets the age at 14 years, while the one proposed by the hon. member sets it at 16.

I think society has evolved from where it was five, ten or fifteen years ago. The changes proposed are not in the direction of a change in society. On the contrary, they are a backward step, a regression in what is tolerated, and I wonder about the justification.

It is certainly not desirable for young people aged 14 or 15 to engage in sexual acts or to be in the presence of such acts. But when the legislator drafted these clauses, I imagine he was listening carefully to what the public wanted. The legislator paid careful attention to what the people in the various ridings were prepared to tolerate.

I cannot see how we could say today “What was true 10 or 15 years ago is no longer true, and the Criminal Code must be amended to increase the age from 14 to 16”.

What I find most surprising is that this is a bill to change age on the grounds that an adolescent 14 years of age cannot validly give consent, and the age must be increased to 16, and that it is a member of the Reform Party speaking, when in the debate on young offenders these same people said the age should be lowered to 14 or 15 because they are responsible.

There is something wrong with these two sorts of thinking. Either they are responsible or they are not. A person cannot be responsible for a delinquent act and not be responsible for an act of a sexual nature. A person is responsible in all matters, not just when it suits the Reform member.

I have two children, a 7-year old and a 10-year old. I know very well that today's children are much more mature than those of 30 years ago when I was their age. My children have much more mature discussions. They are much more aware of what is going on than were children of the same age 10 or 15 years ago.

I do not excuse people wanting to have sexual relations with someone aged 15. I cannot excuse it, but I think there are children 15 years of age who are sufficiently mature to give their consent.

It would be an infringement of certain rights not to allow a man or a woman—because we are talking about both sexes—to invoke the consent of his or her partner. This is precisely what Bill C-209 introduced by the member would do.

Now I have the attention of Reformers. This does not surprise me. Quebec and western Canada are worlds apart legally. I think you are great folks but we will never agree on how this country should be run. Let us go when we call the next referendum. Let us go and you can do what you want in your wonderful country and we will do what we want in the country of Quebec.

In the meantime, we are still in Canada and I still have a mandate from my constituents to say what I think and to express their views as well. In all honesty, my constituents will not be able to support such a bill once they know what it is all about. For those reasons, I cannot support this bill.

[Myron Thompson, Reform, Wild Rose, AB]

Mr. Speaker, it is with pleasure that I speak to this honourable bill brought forward by my hon. colleague from Calgary Northeast. I want to thank the Conservative Party for having the common sense to support good solid legislation.

It is an absolute, deplorable shame that the Liberal member, whom I do not blame because he got a canned speech that was developed in Annie Fanny's department, or whatever we want to call it, along with all its glossy—

[The Deputy Speaker]

The hon. member for Wild Rose knows that he cannot refer to a member of the House by other than the member's title. I am not sure whom he meant, but I can guess. I think he is stepping over the line a little. I think he meant the Minister of Justice.