Debates of March 4th, 1999

Points Of Order

[David Pratt, Liberal, Nepean—Carleton, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I was the acting chair of the Standing Committee on National Defence and Veterans Affairs today when this issue was raised. This is what occurred at the committee: The member for Okanagan—Coquihalla was attempting to deal with a document obtained through access to information that was only in one of the official languages.

The member for Joliette had some difficulty with that because it was the first time he had seen the document in English. He had no previous knowledge that it was coming forward. As a courtesy to the member for Joliette, as the parliamentary secretary has indicated, in terms of the previous practice of the committee which has been dealt with by motion in the committee, we agreed as a committee that this matter would be deferred until the document could be translated.

The member indicated that he tried to table the document and that the chair refused to table the document. That is not the case. The document was tabled with the committee and will be dealt with presumably at a later date.

As I indicated, it was solely a matter of courtesy to the member for Joliette, who is not as functional in English as are the other members of the committee. It was done as a courtesy.

[Don Boudria, Liberal, Leader of the Government in the House of Commons]

Mr. Speaker, there are two issues. First, a request has been made by an hon. member that the Speaker should rule on an issue. I do not want to get into that one. Mr. Speaker will rule on any previous issue whenever Mr. Speaker feels it is appropriate for him to do so, if he decides it is appropriate for him to do so. None of us should question that.

On the matter of the procedure before committee, we went through this a number of years ago, as the Chair will recall. I believe some work was done.

If it is necessary to fine tune the procedures we had set before, so be it. Perhaps the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs should look at that.

However, our general principle would make immanent sense to most of us. If a government document is to be tabled in committee, the same rules as would apply to the House should apply. A government document in the House has to be tabled in two official languages and I think it should be the same in committee. That is only logical.

If the speech of a witness comes to the committee obviously the witness appears with his document and it appears in the way that it appears. I think that is equally normal.

If a member walks in with a document and would like it made available to all committee members surely that document can be given to the clerk to have it translated and then given to the members. That seems equally logical.

Those are all principles which I do not think are very hard for any of us to understand. They only refer to what is practical and what respects the official languages so that all members of parliament can read what is given to us. I feel that should be the guiding principle.

If that needs to be refined in any way we have very excellent staff in the clerk's office that can prepare a document for us to be fine tuned for the committee on procedure and House affairs and then used by all committees.

[The Speaker]

I would prefer that the members of the committee settle whatever differences they have.

The hon. member can correct me, but did he say he was not allowed to table the document?

[Jim Hart, Reform, Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC]

Mr. Speaker, the document was not officially tabled. It was handed to the members of the committee and the member for Joliette objected to the document.

[The Speaker]

My understanding, from what the acting chairman of the committee told me, is that the document was tabled with the understanding or agreement that this document would be translated and discussed at the next meeting.

If that is the case then the document was tabled, according to the chairman, and will be discussed at the next meeting.

However, if hon. members bring committee problems to the Chair, I would prefer to deal with them when I get a report from the committee. That is how we usually work it here in the House.

What I am asking the hon. member is that if the information we heard today is indeed accurate on all sides, if it could be settled by the members of the committee I would much prefer it, but I invite hon. members to bring back a report to me. At that time I will take it under consideration.

[Sophia Leung, Liberal, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I wish to clarify the statements by the hon. members for Calgary Southeast and Edmonton North by misrepresenting my statement.

I actually tried to encourage Canadian women to combine their careers and family life if they wished or if they were able to manage both.

[The Speaker]

I understand the hon. member but I think we are coming into debate as to what I meant and what I said. Many times we use words in here which we attribute to a quote from a member that appeared in some newspaper or some publication and sometimes, not always, they are not accurate.

What we have here, I believe, is a dispute of the facts. I am sure this can be clarified in another way. I am thinking in a statement.

The House resumed consideration of the motion and the amendment.

Supply

[Grant McNally, Reform, Dewdney—Alouette, BC]

Madam Speaker, it is a pleasure to join this debate today on such a positive motion being brought forward by members of the official opposition. It is such a pleasure to speak on this topic because it is a topic that is so dear to my heart.

I am the father of four young children, ages eight, six, four and two. My wife is working at home raising those kids as am I when I get a chance to be there. It is hard sometimes with this job. We know there are some major commitments here as members of parliament. There are lots of Canadian families making major commitments to their families. They have made a number of different decisions. Some families have decided to have one of the parents stay home to look after their children. Some families have decided that they need both parents working. There are all sorts of other arrangements with others giving care to children in the home.

What is becoming very evident in this debate today is this government's approach, this government's real attitude toward families and to parents who choose to look after their children at home.

This issue was brought to light by the junior finance minister. We are all well aware of his comments made earlier this week and his apology for those comments, which is an honourable thing to do. I think that is a good thing to do but also we must take a look at what government members are saying and, more important, what they are doing, what the Liberal government is doing.

The government is purposely discriminating against families, against individuals who choose to stay at home and raise their children. It is saying is that there is not real value in that very hard job of raising families, at least not the same value as if those individuals, those parents, were outside the home working.

We have heard numerous statements. We heard the member for Vancouver Kingsway try to enter in on a point of debate not happy about what she said. She said most women can combine career and family life. We know it is very difficult. A lot of times people just take the easy way out.

What is that member saying? What is the government saying to families that choose to have one parent stay home to look after their children? I think it is an amazing admission of what the government's real agenda is. It is unbelievable and it does not stop there.

We heard in question period today and throughout debate as well another member of the government, the member for St. Paul's, talking to members who appeared before the finance committee, saying that your perception as elite white women is not helping colleagues stay at home, individuals, mothers in this case, called elite white women. That is reprehensible.

It shows there are members of the government who are bringing a voice to what the real belief of the government is. It is becoming evident through debate today what the real agenda of the government is as it relates to families. That is discrimination. The government does not have a problem with that.

It does not have a problem about discriminating against families that choose to have one parent stay home to raise children. In fact, if government members put action to their empty words about what they believe they would do something in their budgets about this discrimination that continues. Year after year the government has been in the House and it has not addressed this.

Government members will throw out some straw dog arguments about the child tax deduction and benefit which helps certain individuals but not all individuals. They neglect to mention the clawback factor.

The millionaire finance minister believes that individuals who are making between $30,000 and $60,000 do not deserve the same amount of benefit as other individuals. He must think those individuals are rich and that $50,000 is a lot of money to raise a family.

I can tell the millionaire finance minister that is not a lot of money. There are a lot of families in this country working really hard to try to raise their families.

I never intended to get involved in politics. One of the things that motivated me to get involved was that very fact, the outrageous amount of taxes the government was taking out of my family's pocket to subsidize its spending habits that seem to know no end at all.

My wife is a professional. She is an early childhood educator. She was a supervisor of a day care. I was a teacher. We made the decision to have her stay home and raise the children. She has also worked outside the home. She has worked sometimes during the summer and I have stayed home to look after the children.

The minister of multiculturalism made some fairly outrageous statements earlier about members here, about why we do not just look after our own children. I will tell that minister that is exactly what our family is doing. That is exactly what we are working on and that is what families are working on across the country.

The agenda of the government is very clear, discrimination against families that choose to have an individual stay at home to look after the children. What we are asking for is a choice and equality for all individuals, for all families, for the different arrangements people choose to make regarding looking after children.

Sometimes people choose to stay home to raise children. Sometimes they need to work outside the home. Why is the government so against choice? I cannot believe it. It is just unbelievable.

Members of the government seem to be talking out of both sides of their mouths. Some of the members say yes, we are discriminating.

I want to read a question that was asked to the finance minister by an individual in British Columbia earlier this week. This mother had chosen to stay home to raise her children. She was phoning a talk show and these are her exact words to the Minister of Finance on March 1: “We were hoping to see in this budget some form of help for families with stay at home moms. We are under an incredible amount of stress because we have decided for me to stay home to raise the children. My husband is the single income earner. We are bringing home less. We are actually being penalized. The mothers or the care givers going to work and getting better tax breaks than those of us who are deciding to stay home and deciding to send one of us out to work. What is the finance minister going to do about that? Why has he not done something this year?”

The finance minister did not give the normal rhetoric and spin he gives in the House of Commons, which was refreshing. He said: “The fact is that you are right”.

What was the caller right about? The caller was saying that we are being penalized because we choose to send one of our members of the family out to work outside the home. The finance minister admitted that.

He went on to say: “There are anomalies that have been allowed to build up in the Income Tax Act over the years”. He has been the finance minister for five years and he has allowed those inequities to go on and on.

There is discrimination against families, discrimination against Canadians who choose to have one of the members of their family stay home and look after their children.

This motion is a positive motion that seeks to end the ongoing discrimination of the government.

We hope we have unanimity on the opposition benches and that this positive motion will go forward. We hope that government members will have an opportunity in a free vote to turn this around and put an end to this Liberal government discrimination against families.

[The Acting Speaker (Ms. Thibeault)]

I think that we should limit our questions and comments to one minute in order that more members can participate in the debate this afternoon.

[Joe Jordan, Liberal, Leeds—Grenville, ON]

Madam Speaker, I want the hon. member to recognize that I think this is a very serious issue. He has expressed it very eloquently.

To characterize the anomaly, in the finance minister's words, when we have a tax system and we are implementing policy changes and regulation changes simultaneously, anomalies happen. To characterize this as discrimination are we also, with the progressivity of the income tax act, discriminating against people who have the skills and knowledge that the marketplace is going to pay more for? Is that following that argument to its logical conclusion?

I have a specific question. The Reform Party, rightly sometimes and wrongly other times, accuses us of not answering but I want to ask a very direct question.

I spent last week on a very informative tour of eastern Canada with the heritage committee. The reason I was not at home with my son is that the committees cannot travel when the House is sitting because the Reform Party will not sign the pairing sheet. So the rubber is hitting the road here, guys. If they were concerned about all families, not just their families, is the Reform Party willing to agree to sign the pairing sheet so that we can manage our job and spend more time with our families too?

[Grant McNally, Reform, Dewdney—Alouette, BC]

Madam Speaker, I know the hon. member is working hard to raise his young family as well. We are very much in the same situation in that regard. We all have families we need to attend to.

I know as a member of parliament he will understand that committees make decisions about what it is they are going to do. I do not think it is fair to lay the blame on one individual or one particular party. This is something which all committees have to come to an agreement on.

I see the immigration minister who yesterday witnessed the great disharmony in the committee in the fact that the government would not allow members of the official opposition to ask the minister simple questions on whatever topic they wanted. As a result of that, they have shown their inability to work together. It is that frustration which leads to having to take other measures, to even plead with the government to listen to members of the official opposition on other important issues.

I hope we can all work together. I hope the member will join us in working together in a harmonious manner.

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS]

Madam Speaker, again I thank the hon. member and his party for bringing forward this very important debate. I have a couple of questions for him.

One is on the national standards for all families, especially for those who are low income or single parent. Would he and his party not agree that the Canada pension plan, although we have difficulties with some aspects of it in terms of the premium payments, is a good idea for those people with low income so that they will have some kind of pension in their later years? Many low income families cannot participate in the RRSP program.

Would he agree that that program as well as national day care for low income families are good to have on a national basis?

[Grant McNally, Reform, Dewdney—Alouette, BC]

Madam Speaker, I appreciate my colleague's questions.

In terms of national standards and the pension issue, one of the best ways to solve that problem is to leave more dollars in the pockets of families across Canada. That would allow individuals the opportunity to do what they see fit with those dollars, including investing in pensions in any way they see fit. That would allow choice in that particular area.

He asked about a national day care program. This is something the Liberal government promised in 1993. It was in the red book. I think I heard the member refer to that earlier in debate. This is another promise the Liberal government broke.

What is it that Canadians need? What more proof do they need that when the government says something and does not deliver on it, they should perhaps look at absolutely everything it says to see whether or not it will deliver.

My mother taught me that actions speak louder than words, and my father did as well in various ways, but we will not get into that. I must say that the actions of the government clearly indicate that it is not willing to make a commitment on many programs and it is not willing to end the discrimination against families who choose to have an individual raise the children at home.

[John Cummins, Reform, Delta—South Richmond, BC]

Madam Speaker, it is a pleasure to speak to this most important motion. The objective of the motion is to encourage the government to try to understand the difficulties that families are facing in today's society.

It seems obvious to me from listening to the debate that the government just does not understand the difficult choices families have to make. We do not have to go too far back to observe some of the actions of the government and reflect on the result of those actions to see that that is the case.

For example, the government refused recently to take realistic action to discourage children from smoking. That is important. It is a health issue. It is important to try to bring that issue forward to children yet the government seems to ignore that concern. Recently it refused to protect children from sexual predators by not invoking the notwithstanding clause after a recent unfortunate court decision in British Columbia.

Today the type of issue we are talking about is that the government refuses to ensure that families are treated fairly under the tax system. In fact, it denigrates the role that has been played by stay at home parents.

Much mention has been made today about the comments of the junior minister of finance. The most unfortunate comments that he made reflected a real lack of understanding of the important role that homemakers play. Those comments of the junior minister are not to be unexpected.

As an example, the Prime Minister's office produced talking points recently which said that Reform does not understand the modern family, that parents work for a variety of reasons and finances is only one of them, and that the Reform platform assumes that increased tax deductions will encourage parents to quit their jobs and return to the kitchen. That is a shameful comment. It comes right out of the Prime Minister's office and shows a complete lack of understanding of the important job parents do when they decide to stay home to provide care for their children.

That disregard for that important role was expressed very clearly by the member for Vancouver Kingsway who talks about the low esteem that may keep parents at home. It is low esteem if one desires to stay at home and look after children. She refers in that same statement to parents who decide to stay at home as being looked down upon as misfits. I find it outrageous that anyone could think those things and then try to suggest they were misunderstood. The words speak for themselves. Parents, she says, who stay at home are simply taking the easy way out.

I have a real concern about that because that is simply not the case. It is not the easy way out. It is the difficult way out in many respects.

I have a friend. Both he and his wife are well educated people, both capable of providing an income for the family. It would be a modest income because we know how the tax penalizes single family earners. A few years ago this friend of mine, who as a matter of fact ran for parliament in 1988, decided that he would stay home and look after the home front while his wife went out to work. He stayed home to look after their two young children until they were well into their elementary school years. It was difficult for him. Not that many years ago many people did not understand why he would choose to stay home, because as I said, he certainly was capable of earning a living. But that was a choice that he made.

My friend is going to be penalized all the way down the line for that in a financial way. Maybe I will talk a little bit more about that, about the financial sacrifices that were made by that family and the sacrifices that will be felt in the years to come when both parents elect to retire.

Again the sacrifice that people make is ignored. The member from Essex—Windsor talks about stay at home parents as a nostalgic notion promoted by the Reform Party. It is an absolute outrage to refer to a stay at home parent and those who wish to do that as a nostalgic notion. I am disturbed by that. I am disturbed by the notion that somehow people who stay at home are misfits.

My wife was a well-qualified teacher. She chose to stay home and look after our son many years ago. I think he appreciates that to this day.

C. D. Howe Institute researcher Kenneth Boessenkool calculated that a dual earner family with two preschool children and an income of $70,000 gets more than $14,000 in child related tax breaks that are not available to the single earner family. That is absolutely astounding, $14,000. That is over $1,000 a month in benefits that accrue to a dual earner family, benefits that are denied to a single earner family.

In fact in the C. D. Howe Institute document, Boessenkool traces the federal government's tax treatment of families with children since World War II. He notes that in earlier decades income tax provided reasonable tax deductions for children to both single and dual earner families. In recent years however, he notes, tax benefits have been targeted toward very poor families and dual earner families. Middle income, single earner families with children are taxed as heavily as families without children. Let me repeat that. Middle income, single earner families with children are taxed as heavily as families without children.

How are we going to prepare ourselves for the future? How are we going to prepare our children for the future if we are taxing their parents to death? How are they to pay the high tuition fees that are required today if they are facing a tax regime which is that stringent and unmerciful?

Boessenkool notes that it is unfair. The tax system should accommodate the cost of child rearing whether or not both parents are working outside the home. He argues further and makes three points that I want to raise here as well.

First, he says that the tax system no longer recognizes the cost of raising children in all families. That is true. The facts are there and are very, very clear.

Second, he notes that to the extent that the tax system has relieved the burden for middle and upper income families with children, it has done so disproportionately for dual earner families through generous child care exemptions. Again, the discrimination there is built into the tax system and has been ignored by the finance minister who acknowledges that the problem exists yet for five years has done nothing to rectify it.

Finally, Boessenkool notes that the combination of clawed back social policy transfers plus income and other taxes has created unacceptably high effective marginal tax rates for families earning between $20,000 and $30,000. I do not think one can live on $20,000 or $30,000 in the area where I live. I do not know whether there are many areas in Canada where one is going to be able to survive on between $20,000 and $30,000.

It is also important to recognize that we are not whistling in the dark over here or singing a tune alone on this issue. There is a loud chorus behind us.

An October 1998 Compas poll showed that 92% of Canadians felt that families with children today were under more stress than 50 years ago, 90% felt that parents were working too hard and too many hours and 78% felt that not enough respect was given for the effort parents put into raising children. That is a serious condemnation of this government's policies. They are out of line with what the public is saying.

The Vanier Institute pointed out that single income families with children are 3.8 times more likely to have a low income than a dual income family.

It is a serious problem and I appreciate the opportunity to address it today.

[René Canuel, Bloc, Matapédia—Matane, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I listened very attentively to what the hon. member has just had to say, and I find it totally logical and rational.

My congratulations to the hon. member for Calgary Southeast, who introduced this motion, for we can never do too much to honour those who stay at home to rear their children, whether fathers or mothers. I would describe child-rearing as the finest job in the world, in fact I would call it more than a job, it is the greatest profession in the world.

I think it is too bad that the father or mother—for it could very well be a father—who decided to stay at home is penalized for so doing. I would even go so far as to say that stay at home parents ought to have a guaranteed income.

I therefore ask my colleague from the Reform Party whether he thinks they ought to be guaranteed an income of $14,000 per year?

[John Cummins, Reform, Delta—South Richmond, BC]

Madam Speaker, the member's noting that a stay at home parent is the greatest profession in the world is something I think everybody in the House should appreciate and agree with. I know that goes for across the aisle with many people.

As far as guaranteed annual salaries, it is an interesting option. However, the issue before us today is the unfair treatment by the tax system. I think that is the issue we have to address first.

I know that many people who forego economic opportunity to stay at home with their children do not mind that. What does bother them is the unfair treatment by the tax system. They are prepared to accept a lower standard of living so that they can enjoy their children more and have total responsibility for the upbringing of the children.

[Paul Szabo, Liberal, Mississauga South, ON]

Madam Speaker, the member referred to people earning between $20,000 and $30,000. I have just done the calculation and wanted to put on the record the calculation of an employee who had earned an income of $25,000. This person would pay $4,469 in tax, $675 in EI and $688 in CPP which would mean a net take home pay of $19,168. The effective tax rate is 17.8%.

Since an income earner making $25,000 a year is paying a 17.8% tax rate, does the member believe that it should be lower based on his comments and, if so, how much lower?

[John Cummins, Reform, Delta—South Richmond, BC]

Madam Speaker, to be quite honest, I find it rather difficult to expect someone making $25,000, the total family income, to be paying any income tax at all.

In my neck of the woods rent for a modest home is well over $1,000 a month. Put some food on the table and there is nothing left. I find it amazing and absolutely incredible that families earning $25,000 a year are paying taxes. I find that an absolute outrage.

[Paul Szabo, Liberal, Mississauga South, ON]

Madam Speaker, we are talking today about an issue that is very important to not only me but I think to all members in this place. I know that many members have had initiatives to try to bring focus to this issue and we should not divide ourselves on whether the spirit and the intent of what is being discussed here is at all in dispute.

When I became a member of parliament I wanted to be involved and the first thing I did was draft a private member's bill, Bill C-256, to split income between spouses so one could stay at home and care for preschool children. I was not exactly sure how the mechanics of all that would work out but members will know that private members' bills necessarily have to be somewhat simplistic to have an opportunity to pass.

I was disappointed that it was not votable. I do not want to isolate anyone for it not being votable but we had an opportunity to debate it and I knew that there was support in the House.

I also had a bill to amend the Canada pension plan act so that we could have Canada pension plan benefit entitlements for a stay at home mom. I thought that would be great. I am not sure exactly how it would work but I think it makes great sense because we forgo economic gain but unpaid work is still work and deserves to be compensated.

I also had a bill to convert the child care expense deduction to a credit and extend it to all families. I agree with the intent. I am not exactly sure again about the mechanics but I support the intent and I wanted to raise it in the House so that we could discuss the issue.

I also had Motion No. 30, a care giver tax credit for those who provide care in the home to preschool children, the chronically ill, the aged and the disabled. Members will know that we passed that motion in this place 129 to 63. As a result of the intent of the House and the signal that was given there were improvements in the disability credits that are transferable to those who care for them. There was also the introduction of the care giver credit for an aged parent which is now in place.

We did not quite get that care giver benefit for those who provide care in the home to preschool children and we are working on it.

There is a real cost. There is no question. I will not dispute. I presented a petition over 200 times in the House that managing the family home, caring for preschool children is an honourable profession which has not been recognized for its value to our society. In my view that is one of the most important outcomes that should be from this debate today, that we are able to give true recognition to the important contribution to our society to raising healthy children and families.

Members agree on that. I know they do. I have seen them debate here. I have seen them vote on issues related to the family. I know family and healthy children are an important priority for this place.

There is a real cost. We know where parents choose to have both working in the paid labour force and they pay for third party care there is a cost to that care. It includes food, toys, books, music and infrastructure in a salary, and $7,000 is the maximum that can be claimed as a deduction. A stay at home parent also has costs. Child care expenses exist not because parents work but because children exist. Parents who care for their children in the home have the books, the toys, the music, the food, the infrastructure, the place to raise a healthy child.

We have the unpaid work situation and I am not sure if we will easily be able to resolve that. But a starting point will be to recognize in this place that there is a value to that unpaid work and in my view it is the most important job in the world.

I believe no family should have to choose between the job it needs and the child it loves. It is a very difficult decision for many families to make. I believe that parents and not governments should be making decisions as to what is the best possible care for their children. I agree with the sentiment expressed by somebody that we should not have significant incentives or disincentives. We are talking about choice and I support options, flexibility and choices for parents to choose the best possible care for their children. We need to value the contribution of those care givers through economic supports, which I will deal with at the end of my speech.

We obviously want to give that recognition to those who choose to provide direct parental care to their children. It is their family value, it is their social value. They believe that is the best arrangement for their children. But for some there is no option because affordable child care may not be available. It may not even be accessible. We do not all live in urban centres. It will not always be available. We have so many different circumstances across this great land that there is no single solution to solve everybody's problems. That is an important point for all members to remember.

It is my principle and my view that parents providing direct parental care provide the best quality of care possible in the vast majority of cases. I appreciate that many families have forgone the opportunity to have both parents working, to earn economic gain, to buy RRSPs, to have those vacations, and they do it because they love their children and because they want to raise healthy children and strong families. It is a very significant contribution being made.

If we have high quality care, we have better physical, mental and social health outcomes in children. That means we have lower health care costs, criminal justice costs and social program costs. All Canadians benefit when we have healthy outcomes for children. That is the contribution and that is why everyone here is saying very clearly that we value stay at home parents for their contribution.

Madam Speaker, I understand I am splitting my time with the member from Vancouver, which we talked about earlier.

I will not support this motion today and I will present to members the reason why. I have about seven points to make. First, the child care expense deduction is only available to the lowest income earning of the two spouses. As a result it may not be equitable to treat everybody the same. I do not believe the child care expense deduction is that.

The child care expense deduction has a problem with it. Members including the member for Calgary Southeast will know that the deduction is worth more to higher income earners versus low income earners which is also discriminatory. I have a problem with the child care expense deduction, period.

The motion does not address the fact of lone parent families which are growing dramatically. The family breakdown rate in Canada is rising to a level above 50%. In 1994 when I came here lone parent families represented 12% of all families. Stats Canada now reports that one out of every six families is a lone parent family and this motion would do nothing to help them. I want to help lone parent families.

Comparing $50,000 to two incomes of $25,000 is a specious argument. We really have to start with here is a couple working, one making $50,000, one making $25,000, and then they have a child. Now we have to make the decision of should I withdraw from the workforce and provide direct parental care or should I engage care and have a child care expense deduction. That is the debate and that is what has not been put on the table by the Reform Party. I am sorry, but it is inappropriate for discussion to have a $50,000 income compared with two $25,000 incomes.

If we were to do that we would have the same situation as in the United States with a different tax table. We cannot calculate it on individual tax tables. If they were straightforward and forthright on this issue they would say that we would adopt the same situation of joint filing that the U.S. has and also have a separate tax table for joint filers.

This issue cannot be looked at simplistically and have the Income Tax Act solve all problems for all family configurations for all care giver choices.

Other things have to be taken into account such as non-tax items and the child tax benefit. The government introduced a change of $1.7 billion which will significantly enhance the position of stay at home moms.

I want members to know what I want. I cannot just be against something. I want to eliminate totally the child care expense deduction. I want to replace it with a caregiver benefit available to all caregivers so that they can choose how they will provide it.

I also want to increase the paid parental leave under the EI program by an additional 27 weeks so that parents can choose to provide one full year of care for their children during those first important formative years.

Finally, I want to amend the Canada pension plan so that stay at home moms can finally have some benefit from our Canada pension plan.

[Jason Kenney, Reform, Calgary Southeast, AB]

Madam Speaker, at the outset let me say that I have enormous respect for this member who has done as much or more than any member in the House to promote the principles of tax equity for families.

He has done far more work than I have in this regard. I think we all owe him a debt of gratitude as do the advocates of tax fairness for single income families, but—and it is a very big and unfortunate but—I was really disappointed to hear the rationale of the member for voting against the motion before us today.

I could understand the member voting against it on some sound principle but he did not articulate that. I really am embarrassed with the rationale the member provided.

Let me read the motion:

That, in the opinion of this House, the federal tax system should be reformed to end discrimination against single income families with children.

It is as general as can be, framed that way specifically so that members such as the member for Mississauga South could feel comfortable to support the principle he has just advocated. None of the specifics about deductions or the basic personal exemption are included in the motion. This is a very general motion. What specifically does he object to in the motion?

[Paul Szabo, Liberal, Mississauga South, ON]

Madam Speaker, let me repeat. First, the child care expense deduction is only available to the lowest income earning spouse so that parents with part time incomes of a very small amount cannot make full use of the benefit. It is not equitable.

Second, the motion does not take into account the case of lone parents. Lone parents represent one out of every six parents in the country. They would get no benefit from the motion. I want to help them.

I do not disagree with the intent of the motion. I think I said I agree with the intent. I just do not agree with the approach and because of that I will not leave it there. I explicitly articulated three ways in which we could improve not only the fairness but also the equity between incomes and tax benefits for all families.

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS]

Madam Speaker, I was not planning to rise but the member mentioned EI and now I want to say a couple of points.

In 1989 one of my predecessors, Mr. Broadbent, put a motion to the House to eliminate child poverty by the year 2000. We have had four years of Conservative government. We have had six years of Liberal government, and now child poverty is fourfold in the country. Also the use of food banks is on a rise. It is absolutely astounding that the government can stand by and this member can try to defend Liberal action in any way.

The member mentioned EI. Under the government $21 billion has been ripped away from the workers and employers, some $7 billion this year alone. As has already been admitted by the Minister of Human Resources Development, that money has been spent on other programs. This money belongs to the employees and employers, especially working mothers who could stay at home. The rules were changed. If a woman decided to stay at home and have maternity leave it was very difficult to achieve that.

Those are the facts of the matter. Would the hon. member respond to that, please?

[Paul Szabo, Liberal, Mississauga South, ON]

Madam Speaker, I thank the member for his question. The motion that was dealt with by the House in 1989 was to seek to achieve the goal of eliminating and not to eliminate. I just wanted to point that out for the member.

The issue of poverty is related to this issue because of the growing number of lone parent families in Canada. They represent about one out of six families, but they also account for 46% of all children living in poverty. The member raised a very important point and we have to do something about it.

The single largest cause of poverty is family breakdown. Family breakdown has to do with the significant level of domestic violence in Canada, with alcohol and drug abuse, and with the financial stress on couples. These are social problems on which we have made no progress.

I agree with the member. We have to do something. I do not know what we will do with domestic violence other than take some stronger, tough love measures and start reporting more cases, charging more people and protecting victims. We need to do some important work in that regard.

I thank the member for raising the issue of poverty. It will be an important issue for the House for some time.

[Sophia Leung, Liberal, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

Madam Speaker, our government has introduced its sixth budget. It provides the health care system, the most fundamental need of Canadian families and children, with $11.5 billion in new funding over five years. It also provides over $7 billion in broad based tax relief that will benefit every Canadian. A large portion of the relief is to lower income individuals and families.

Now we have a motion by the official opposition before us. Does it challenge our health care investment? Does it propose a new tax assistance for those in need? The answer is no.

It is an outrageous idea that a family in which both parents work at lower income levels may pay less tax than a single breadwinner who is lucky enough to earn as much as the other two people combined.

The false logic of this alleged discrimination has been properly and precisely rebutted by my colleagues in government. I will step over this red herring motion, or maybe I should say misleading proposal, and address the underlying issues. The real agenda behind the motion is to try to suggest that the government is not taking concrete, committed action on the tax burden affecting every Canadian.

As the budget made clear, tax reduction plays a key role in the government's objective to build today for a better future. The federal government is committed to providing substantial tax relief in the fairest way possible.

Significant relief was directed at students, charities, persons with disabilities and the children of parents with low incomes upon the elimination of the deficit in 1997-98. The 1998 budget began the process of providing broad based tax relief. For the first time since 1965 tax relief is provided for every taxpayer without deficit financing, without borrowing money to pay for it.

In the interest of fairness, the greatest tax relief in the 1998-99 budget will go to low and middle income Canadians. The 1998 budget benefited low income Canadians by increasing by $500 the amount of income they can earn annually before paying income tax. The 1999 budget increases that amount by $175, to $675, and extends it to all Canadian taxpayers.

This means that effective July 1, 1999, the basic amount of income that all Canadians can therefore earn annually on a tax free basis will rise to $7,131. As well the spousal equivalent will increase to $655.

Those measures will benefit low income Canadians. In the 1998 budget, 400,000 low income Canadians no longer pay any federal taxes. The 1999 measures will build on those numbers by removing 200,000 more Canadians from this tax burden, for a total of 600,000.

The 1998 budget began the process of eliminating the 3% surtax introduced in 1986 by the previous government as a measure to help reduce the federal deficit. Last year the government abolished the 3% surtax for taxpayers with incomes of up to $50,000 and reduced it for those with incomes between $50,000 and $65,000. All in all, 14 million Canadians received tax reductions as a result of this measure.

The 1999 budget also builds on previous action to assist families through the Canadian child tax benefit which is composed of basic benefits and a supplement for the low income family.

As the finance minister has noted, the tax measures in the 1998 and the 1999 budgets reflect three fundamental principles of the government's tax policy. First, our tax system must be fair. Second, broad based tax relief should focus initially on personal income tax. Third, because of our debt burden broad based tax relief should not be financed with borrowed money.

Together the 1998 and the 1999 budgets provide the largest tax reduction at the lowest income level. For example, single taxpayers earning $20,000 and less will have their federal income tax reduced by at least 10%. A typical one earner family with two children and an income of $30,000 or less will pay no net federal tax. A family with income of $45,000 or less will have tax reduced by a minimum of 10%, and in some cases even more.

The 1998 and 1999 budgets ensure that 600,000 low income Canadians will no longer pay any federal tax. As a working mother I would support whatever help we can give to working mothers either at home or at work. The government has focused on helping low income families, providing also for mothers working at home. It is our purpose to support and help the 600,000 low income families.