House of Commons Hansard #205 of the 36th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was nato.

Topics

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5:10 p.m.

Bonavista—Trinity—Conception Newfoundland & Labrador

Liberal

Fred Mifflin LiberalMinister of Veterans Affairs and Secretary of State (Atlantic Canada Opportunities Agency)

Mr. Speaker, I have a comment and a question for the hon. member.

He made reference to the fact that we have not consulted parliament. We debated this in November or October. I certainly remember being here on February 17, and we are debating it again today.

I just want to set the hon. member's mind correct. I was a defence critic when the gulf war began. One morning Canadians woke up to hear that Canadian forces had been committed to the gulf war while parliament was in summer recess. The House was not recalled.

He talks about a vote. Yes, there was a vote but considerably after the Canadian forces were committed. I remember that being a very major point. If my memory serves me correctly, the vote was on the UN resolution.

If we were to make public that we will quit bombing in say 5, 10 or 15 days, does the hon. member think this would really help NATO or would it help Milosevic?

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5:10 p.m.

Progressive Conservative

Peter MacKay Progressive Conservative Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough, NS

Mr. Speaker, I also recall that period of time, although I certainly was not a member of this House.

The one thing I do know is that the government of the day did not make a commitment to send troops and then return them home when the fighting began. What it did do was consult with parliament in a real way, in a debate that mattered and a debate that led to a vote.

That is what members of this party and other members of the opposition have been calling for, a significant motion before the House that defines the action and allows parliamentarians to, at the very least, have their say and input, to have it considered by the government before it takes a position. I agree that the timeliness of the vote is important.

Taking the hon. member's comments in their context, I hope this is an indication that the government is prepared to have a significant vote before any commitment is made to send ground troops into Kosovo.

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5:10 p.m.

Bloc

Daniel Turp Bloc Beauharnois—Salaberry, QC

Mr. Speaker, I would like to take this opportunity, in the presence of the Prime Minister, to state, as our Conservative colleagues found out this morning, that there is a problem with consultations.

There is a real problem when it comes to consulting members of this parliament. These past two weeks we were promised we would be kept informed. The government promised it would keep us informed, which it has not done properly, and should do better and more often in the coming weeks.

I understand my Conservative colleague is a lawyer. He probably knows how to read the acts that would apply to the present situation. The National Defence Act, for which the minister is responsible, provides that the Governor in Council may place the Canadian forces on active service in consequence of any action undertaken by Canada under the United Nations Charter or the North Atlantic Treaty and not requiring parliament's intervention.

Is his party of the opinion that this provision should be amended so that every time we are considering sending troops—

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5:10 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

I am sorry to interrupt the hon. member, but the question is too long.

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5:10 p.m.

Progressive Conservative

Peter MacKay Progressive Conservative Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough, NS

Mr. Speaker, I thank my learned friend for the comment. I certainly do not hold myself out as an expert in international affairs, but I do take his point. It is certainly something that might be examined as to modifying the existing act.

I want it to be very clear that we as opposition members are not asking asking to micromanage this intervention, this military action. We are asking for meaningful consultation and information that pertains to the serious questions that lead to the decisions the government is making.

The Prime Minister has indicated that he will do more to advise the House and we take him at his word.

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5:15 p.m.

NDP

Bill Blaikie NDP Winnipeg—Transcona, MB

Mr. Speaker, I certainly agree with the arguments the hon. member has been making of late about the need for parliament to be able to give the government a more specific mandate in the context of an explicit motion and vote at some point in the future should perhaps the government come to the view that it wants to deploy ground troops, for instance. I would caution the hon. member not to hang his hat too firmly when it comes to this on the behaviour of the previous Conservative government.

If my memory serves me right, we were well into the gulf war before we had the kind of thing the member is calling for. A lot of procedures that have made it tough for the opposition in this parliament and the last parliament, including the procedure used by the government against the hon. member today, were procedures brought in by that government. In terms of procedural contempt for parliament, his party has few equals and I would caution against self-righteousness in the matter.

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5:15 p.m.

Progressive Conservative

Peter MacKay Progressive Conservative Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough, NS

Mr. Speaker, I thank the hon. member for his intervention. I have great respect for his knowledge of the House, for his participation in debates and for his longstanding commitment to improve parliamentary procedure. In the context of setting up the parameters of this debate he referred quite appropriately to this as an ideal debate where there could be meaningful exchange.

Sadly that will end at 6.30 p.m. and there will be very few in the House to hear the comments being put forward. There will be very little in the way of meaningful exchange. There will be very few ministers present. The Prime Minister will not be here. That is the objective we have been trying to achieve with the assistance of some members of the opposition.

I can think of very few issues of greater importance that would lead the House not to have a debate, that would parallel the decision that must put our armed forces in harm's way in Kosovo. This is an instance where it should happen.

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5:15 p.m.

Liberal

Brenda Chamberlain Liberal Guelph—Wellington, ON

Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order. I know it is not appropriate to comment on when people are in the House, but it is important to say that the Prime Minister is here listening to the debate because he does care. He is here right now in the Chamber.

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5:15 p.m.

Independent

John Nunziata Independent York South—Weston, ON

Mr. Speaker, now that all five political parties have spoken, it appears clear to me that there is a consensus to send ground troops into Kosovo under certain conditions. I would rather the debate be about whether or not Canadians are prepared to send ground troops into Kosovo, period. Sending Canadian soldiers to fight a war in Kosovo means that the Prime Minister and parliament would be prepared to accept that Canadian soldiers will be killed in action in Kosovo.

Before the Canadian government gets itself into a ground war, it should at least know how it will get itself out of a ground war in Kosovo. The Americans made the mistake in Vietnam of getting into a war they did not know how to get out of.

Is the member from the Conservative Party not concerned that a precedent has been set as a result of what is happening in Kosovo, that in future whenever any internal conflict takes place anywhere in the world wherein ethnic cleansing, murder and rape are taking place NATO will be required under the precedent—

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5:15 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

The hon. member for Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough.

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5:15 p.m.

Progressive Conservative

Peter MacKay Progressive Conservative Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough, NS

Mr. Speaker, I thank the hon. member for his question. I respect his opinion.

It is not the position of the Conservative Party that we are at that inevitable point where ground troops will be sent in. However I take the hon. member's question as to whether a precedent has been set and whether we are concerned about that. Certainly we are concerned.

I am afraid that there are instances in the world where conflicts are raging now and the UN or NATO has not intervened. Perhaps they should have. What happens, and it should happen, is that each individual conflict is examined and is given a great deal of thought before any military intervention takes place. I respectfully submit that is the way it should continue.

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5:20 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

The Chair is prepared to rule on the admissibility of the proposed amendment. The Chair finds the amendment to the amendment to be in order and therefore the question is on the amendment to the amendment.

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5:20 p.m.

Independent

John Nunziata Independent York South—Weston, ON

Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order. The Speaker earlier ruled that the amendment which was put by the official opposition was in order. It seems somewhat strange that a take note resolution before the House that will not be voted on can be amended.

I would simply ask for the authority under which amendments can be accepted to a matter before the House that will not be voted on.

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5:20 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

I am sure the hon. member is aware that virtually any motion, except I believe an adjournment motion, put to the House is amendable. There may be a few others that are listed in the standing orders that are not but there are not many.

A motion, even on a take note debate, it seems to me is an amendable motion. It may be that the question is not put but that is in accordance with the rule adopted by the House in relation to this debate. Accordingly amendments are amendments. As long as they are relevant to the main motion and do not contradict the main motion and as long as they are not repugnant to it generally they are ruled to be in order.

There is nothing offensive in the wording that has been proposed by the hon. member for Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough or by the Leader of the Opposition in his amendment. There is nothing contrary or repugnant to the main motion. They seek to amend it and clarify its terms. Accordingly the Chair has held them to be in order.

I will not cite an authority without looking for the hon. member, but I am sure if he looks at his standing orders and at Beauchesne's he will discover there is plenty of authority for amendments to motions. Indeed it is common practice.

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April 12th, 1999 / 5:20 p.m.

Independent

John Nunziata Independent York South—Weston, ON

Mr. Speaker, I rise on a further point of order in light of your comments. Any member of the House who speaks on this matter would be entitled to move an amendment as long as it is consistent with the main motion. At the end of the day we could have 150 amendments to this take note motion.

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5:20 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

No. There can only be a main motion, an amendment and a subamendment before the House at one time. Before another member could move a further amendment the subamendment would have to be disposed of.

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5:20 p.m.

Independent

John Nunziata Independent York South—Weston, ON

How do we dispose of it if we cannot vote?

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5:20 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

You cannot. That is the short answer to your question.

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5:20 p.m.

York Centre Ontario

Liberal

Art Eggleton LiberalMinister of National Defence

Mr. Speaker, I will be splitting my time with the hon. Minister of Citizenship and Immigration.

The grave events taking place in Kosovo have concerned the House for the last six months. The opposition has had every opportunity in a real way to contribute to the discussion and to the important decision making that has to be done. I find its complaints today to be absolutely groundless.

For example, on four occasions since last October the committee on foreign affairs and the committee on defence have met either jointly or separately to discuss the Kosovo issue. In addition there has been a series of detailed technical briefings by military and other officials. Even during the break, even while members were across the country in other locations, the committees came together a few days into the air campaign. The Minister of Foreign Affairs, the Minister for International Cooperation and I came before the committee to talk about Kosovo.

Moreover, the House has debated the situation on two occasions prior to today in February. On last February 17 we considered our participation with ground forces in terms of peacekeeping operations. Once an agreement had been reached we discussed the 600 to 800 Canadian troops that would be involved in that peacekeeping mission.

Furthermore it is important particularly to note today that last October 7 we discussed the very kind of air action that is in fact now ongoing. I can remember. I looked at the notes. There was full participation and an understanding of what was at stake was discussed at that time.

We still hoped for a diplomatic settlement, but everybody in the House knew the consequences last October if we did not get one. As a result of the threat of NATO air strikes, at that time Mr. Milosevic agreed with Richard Holbrooke of the United States, the special envoy, on a set of conditions by which we would then be able to prevent any kind of air strikes. However Mr. Milosevic, true to the form that we have seen in the past, did not live up to his word. He continually broke his promises.

Over the months that followed an ever increasing level of violence against the Kosovars and the steadfast refusal of the Yugoslav delegation at Rambouillet to negotiate in good faith left us with very little choice but to resort to military force. Even then we took several months trying to bring about this diplomatic resolution, but diplomacy had run its course. We were in a race against time as the number of atrocities grew by the hour.

I could quote a lot of the things that members of the House said on that occasion, but the essential point is that members of the House recognize the gravity of the humanitarian catastrophe looming on the horizon and the need to resort to military means if diplomacy fails. The debate last October demonstrated that the policy of the government and the will of the House were one and the same. Our current actions in Kosovo reflect that consensus reached last October 7 in the House.

I assure all Canadians that our objectives are clear. We seek the immediate end to violence in Kosovo; the complete withdrawal of the Yugoslav forces; the unconditional and safe return of all refugees, a million of them; the stationing in Kosovo of an international military presence; and the establishment of a political framework under which the Kosovars can be appropriately governed. Those are the five conditions that were further endorsed today in the foreign ministers meeting in Brussels.

The NATO air campaign is now in its 20th day. All hon. members are aware that Canada has now doubled its initial contribution of six CF-18s for a total of twelve. Some 220 personnel are stationed in Aviano: pilots, technicians and people in many other support roles, all doing excellent work for Canada. There are 100 people involved in the AWACS missions flying out of Germany.

The decision to do all this was taken following close consultation with our NATO allies and careful consideration of how the air operation would be conducted.

I can assure the House I have been in close contact with my NATO colleagues since the beginning of the crisis. Very recently I talked to my Italian and British counterparts, and on Saturday I met with Secretary Cohen in Whashington.

Later this week I will be going to Brussels where I will meet with senior NATO officials. NATO's intensified air operations and Canada's additional commitment of aircraft are not signs that the campaign is failing to deliver results. NATO is engaged in a very deliberate and carefully planned air operation. The first phase of that operation was designed to degrade and neutralize Yugoslav's air defences. NATO has flown thousands of sorties, with only one aircraft loss.

The second phase of the operation began in the midst of the current campaign and it, along with the continued pressure on air defence, meant striking hard at the Yugoslav forces in Kosovo, the very people and the equipment that were inflicting the atrocities on the Kosovo population. Mr. Milosevic is doing everything he can to hide his forces and allude NATO aircraft.

Two conclusions should be drawn from these actions. First, our air campaign is having the intended effect. Second, we are reducing and weakening the capability of the Yugoslav forces to inflict their evil on the people of Kosovo.

Outside of Kosovo, NATO forces are striking at vital Yugoslav military infrastructure and other assets that allow his army and police forces to operate. In the space of these 20 days we have destroyed 50% of Yugoslavia's fuel reserves and have reduced its capacity to refine the remaining oil. As each day passes the price that Mr. Milosevic is paying for his hideous actions in Kosovo is rising and his military capability is diminishing.

This has always been our military objective and we are succeeding, but everyone must understand that it will take time to see this operation to its conclusion. A crisis of this dimension, a human catastrophe of this magnitude, cannot be solved in a few days or weeks. The important moments in human affairs are not for the impatient or for those with feeble convictions.

In addition to our military contribution to NATO, the Canadian forces are taking an active part in addressing the humanitarian tragedy that has resulted from the gruesome actions of the Yugoslav government.

We deployed two Hercules aircraft in Europe to help officials with the world food program to deliver much needed food supplies.

This follows the delivery of blankets last week by CF aircraft. Canadian forces bases are available for refugees if that should prove necessary.

The Canadian forces are playing an important role in NATO's military and humanitarian operations. The men and women who proudly wear the Canadian uniform are once again putting the moral convictions of Canadians into action. They are on the front line. They are facing the dangers and the challenges of a military operation.

Let there be no doubt where this government stands. It is not only the Canadian forces' operation, it is the will of this Canadian government. It is the will of our 18 NATO allies that have committed to this cause. We stand by our allies. As a nation Canada has always lived by certain international principles regarding peace, security and human rights. We stand by them as well.

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5:30 p.m.

Reform

Art Hanger Reform Calgary Northeast, AB

Mr. Speaker, the minister indicated to the House and to the Canadian public that there are approximately 700 Canadian troops from the west who are preparing, in some form, to be stationed in Kosovo.

These questions beg to be asked. First, we would like to know what this government is actually doing. Can it tell us how it is preparing? What sorts of circumstances is it planning for? Is it readying itself for peacemaking, or is it just peacekeeping, or is it both? There is a difference between those two roles.

We need to know about the equipment that Canadians will be taking with them. Do they have what they need to get the job done? Will they be protected to the greatest extent possible by the use of that equipment? What other plans would the military enact to ensure that protection?

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5:35 p.m.

Reform

Leon Benoit Reform Lakeland, AB

Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order. I would like to ask for the unanimous consent of the House to extend the time period for questioning the Minister of National Defence considering the important military component of this issue.

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5:35 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

I do not know what the hon. member is proposing. How many minutes is he proposing to extend it by? Perhaps he could clarify that.

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5:35 p.m.

Reform

Leon Benoit Reform Lakeland, AB

An extra 15 minutes, Mr. Speaker.

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5:35 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

Is it agreed to extend the time for an extra 15 minutes?

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5:35 p.m.

Some hon. members

Yes.