Debates of May 25th, 1999

Public Sector Pension Investment Board Act

[Tony Ianno, Liberal, Trinity—Spadina, ON]

Mr. Speaker, it is interesting as I stated earlier today that the hon. member talks about the proposal of extending this debate for six months. Members talk about the great groundswell they believe is going to occur, but it has not occurred because Canadians are generally pleased with this bill. It is everything the unions along with the employer have sat down to discuss. There was only one part where one of the unions was concerned about the surplus and wanted a percentage of it and all the rest of the items.

As we discussed earlier, it is a legislated plan. The employees and the retirees are guaranteed their pension by this government and by the taxpayers, paid by taxpayers' money.

The concern of the Reform Party, aside from the fact that many of the things were agreed on, is that we are in effect taking what belongs to Canadian taxpayers, which is an accounting entry, and reducing the debt by $30 billion over a period of time. The Reform Party does not like that. Why do they not like it? Because that is going to reduce the cost to Canadian taxpayers in interest that they pay to bondholders. Why does the Reform Party not like that? Because all of a sudden the Liberal Party is going to get credit for reducing the debt by $30 billion. Why does the Reform Party not like that? Because everything they have been talking about, everything the Reform Party is all about is being done by this government on the basis of good fiscal management.

The real problem is that the Reform Party is not only bankrupt of the platform it has carried for six years but it is now trying to steal the Conservatives' plan by uniting the right. The hon. member for St. Albert realizes we are on the right track. He would do exactly what we are doing here because the unions—

[John Williams, Reform, St. Albert, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order. The parliamentary secretary is trying to put words in my mouth. Let us remember that he is the one who is speaking and he is the one who is speaking for the Liberal Party, not for the Reform Party.

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland)]

That is a point of debate.

[Tony Ianno, Liberal, Trinity—Spadina, ON]

Mr. Speaker, there is not much they can speak about. That is what the difficulty is. Earlier I said that I would not use the term hot air because that would be unparliamentary, but taking all of that into account, they complain about the lack of time but they never state anything new. It is all on the record. Their speeches are just cut and paste and regurgitate. They hand them out to each other. It is amazing.

Even on the first day of the debate, the hon. member for St. Albert, who at least is very much aware of this issue, had to pass his notes on to another speaker because he had another engagement but that is understandable.

Under this bill the formula for calculating retirement benefits will be based on average salary during the best consecutive five years of service instead of six. That is very positive when we take into account that the formula by which the plan benefits are integrated with the Canada pension plan or the Quebec pension plan benefits in the plan member's favour. The new formula will mean a somewhat smaller reduction in the plan's benefits when an employee begins to draw CPP—

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland)]

I am sorry, I have to interrupt because we have another question.

I want to assure the House that there is no prohibition for hot air in this Chamber. Were there such a prohibition it would put a serious impediment in the path of this House.

[Ken Epp, Reform, Elk Island, AB]

Mr. Speaker, we know this is a fixed benefit plan.

He says that we get up and regurgitate. The Liberals have said this in every speech they have handed out to their people. I want him to know that I very seldom use notes. When I get up to speak I make sure my outline is in here. I have never ever used a speech that someone else has written.

My real question is on the pension issue. There is a surplus. Quite clearly there is a $30 billion surplus. They have collected $30 billion more than they need, actuarially computed at the present time. It is true that the taxpayers put more money into that fund than was needed so the taxpayers should be entitled to have the money taken back and applied to the debt, no problem. When he says that Reform has a problem with that, he is wrong.

How about the contributions made by the employees? They have also been overcharged. Are they not entitled to at least a proportion, an actuarially computed proportion of that overpayment? The Liberals are failing to notice that they are overcharging them and they do not want to give the money back. There is a word for that which I cannot use.

[Tony Ianno, Liberal, Trinity—Spadina, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I notice that he should use notes, that he should do research, because the difficulty we have is that he does not understand the facts. That is part of the difficulty he is facing. I wish the hon. member who uses a computer at his desk would put some of the research material in, maybe get on to the Internet and tap into the government's information.

When we take into account that with the government an actuarial evaluator determines how much money is actually required on a year to year basis. Even if there is a surplus the evaluator still determines on a year to year basis how much is required, not taking into account the surplus. That is why since 1991-92 the surplus has increased to $30 billion. That is what brings us to the point of dealing with this piece of legislation.

Even the auditor general has asked us to reduce the amount of interest we pay on that. We have conformed with the accounting rules that the hon. member for St. Albert should have educated the other hon. members on to ensure they understood the basic facts we were dealing with.

Unfortunately, the hon. member does not realize we take into account that in most pension plans the employees contribute 40%. What has happened here is that the taxpayer is contributing 70%. In effect, that is why Canadian taxpayers year after year contribute more than they would in any other pension plan, even in the private sector. That is what we are facing.

If we take into account the way the grass is growing, I cannot understand why the Reform Party wants Canadian taxpayers to continue contributing to the point where they will contribute almost the total amount and the employee contributes almost zero. I do not understand why the Reform Party wants to take from the taxpayers' money to pay for the civil servants' pension.

[John Williams, Reform, St. Albert, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order with regard to Bill C-78. My point of order challenges the procedural validity of this bill. Bill C-78 should not go forward because the introduction of Bill C-78 was not preceded by a ways and means motion.

As you are aware, Mr. Speaker, a ways and means motion is required when there is a charge upon the people. In Erskine May's 21st edition on page 726 it summarizes what is covered under the term “charges upon the people”. Point five states that a ways and means motion is required when there are “provisions for the payment into the consolidated fund or the national loans fund of receipts, which do not arise from taxation”.

The Speaker made a similar statement on December 2, 1998 when ruling on Bill S-13. You said, Mr. Speaker, that a ways and means motion is required “if a charge raises funds that are channelled to the consolidated revenue fund”.

Bill C-78 empowers the President of the Treasury Board in three clauses to deposit into the consolidated revenue fund pension surpluses arising from contributions or investments. Clause 96, subsection 44.4(2)(b) on page 80 would allow the president to do this in regard to the public service pension fund. Clause 152, subsection 55.4(2)(b) on page 134 deals with the Canadian forces pension fund. Clause 199, subsection 29.4(2)(b) on pages 185 and 186 deals with the Royal Canadian Mounted Police pension fund. I quote clause 96, subsection 44.4(2)(b):

There may be paid out of the public service pension fund, and into the consolidated revenue fund, the amount, at the time and in the manner, that the Treasury Board determines on the recommendation of the Minister.

We must also remember that the pension funds in question contain funds from three specific sources: contributions by the government of Canada; contributions by the civil servants as a percentage of their pay, and we just heard the parliamentary secretary tell us that it was approximately 70% paid by the Government of Canada and 30% paid by the employees; and a return on the foregoing moneys which have been invested in government bonds.

It is therefore plain that the money deducted from the paycheques of public servants will be transferred to the consolidated revenue fund by Bill C-78 at the time and in the manner that the Treasury Board determines at the recommendation of the minister. The measures in Bill C-78 clearly represent a charge upon the people as defined in Erskine May's 21st edition.

The public service of Canada is currently comprised of around 300,000 employees. Bill C-78 will affect 650,000 current and former employees of the public service. However, the public service of Canada is open to all Canadians to apply without discrimination. Bill C-78 deals with those who have worked in the past, those who work there at present and those who will work there in the future which potentially includes any Canadian citizen. It is therefore a charge upon the people.

The public service pension plan and other plans affected by Bill C-78 are not negotiated plans between employer and employees in the contractual sense. Instead, they are pension plans that are legislated by parliament. Legally there is no employer-employee contractual relationship.

This was confirmed during hearings on Bill C-78 at the natural resources and government operations committee on May 3, 1999 by Mr. Ross Hornby, senior general counsel of the Department of Justice. He said at 5.20 p.m.:

There is no element of contract involved in it (the public service pension plan) or any contractual rights that flow from it.

It is clear from these comments that this is legislated taxation imposed on employees who do not even have the right to express an opinion on this matter.

Mr. Speaker, in your ruling of December 2, 1998 you said:

Modern legislation frequently makes provisions for the imposition of other types of fees or payment which, although not taxes in a strict sense, have enough of the characteristics of taxation to require to be treated as charges upon the people and therefore to be authorized by a ways and means resolution moved by a minister of the crown.

I would argue that because these plans are legislated through acts of parliament and could affect any Canadian citizen as a potential employee of the government they maintain enough characteristics of taxation to be treated as a charge upon the people.

Bill C-78 should not proceed any further because it has not met the requirements of our financial procedures. Since Bill C-78 was not preceded by a ways and means motion, Bill C-78 is not properly before this House and should be removed from the order paper.

I would therefore humbly request that you, Mr. Speaker, defer the vote on third reading of Bill C-78 until you have had time to research the arguments and report back to the House.

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland)]

This is a point of order and it is fairly serious, so we will ask the Minister of Public Works and Government Services to reply. This will be on the record and the Speaker will make a ruling.

[Alfonso Gagliano, Liberal, Minister of Public Works and Government Services]

Mr. Speaker, I just want to make a few points for the record.

Let me say that there was no ways and means motion covering the original Public Service Superannuation Act. That is because the contributions are not tax related upon the general population but are contributions made by a defined and limited group of people in return for the fund benefits. Ways and means motions are required only for tax measures and are charged as a whole to the people, which we call taxes.

I find it very strange that the Reform Party would choose this moment, half an hour before we are to vote, to propose this. Why did it not bring this up at second reading or in committee? Again this is a dilatory measure that the Reform Party is trying. I request that we proceed with the vote as scheduled.

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland)]

We will consult with the clerks and will have a ruling forthwith.

[Alfonso Gagliano, Liberal, Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I would also like to remind you that there is an order of the House that we vote tonight. I hope that is taken into consideration.

[John Williams, Reform, St. Albert, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order. In response to the minister, I have put forth a point of order which states that the bill is not properly before the House and therefore—

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland)]

We should not get into any more debate.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to speak to Bill C-78, but not because I like it. It is another attack against workers in this country.

One should remember that the federal government took over $20 billion from the employment insurance fund, money which belonged to workers; this year the surplus is expected to grow by another $7 billion.

With the bill before us today, Bill C-78, the government will take another $30 billion from a fund that is just as important. It is significant not only for the public service pension funds. I believe the government has the responsibility to show the way. What it is saying to private companies is “Look. You will now be able to take money from your workers' pension fund”. This is exactly what bill C-78 is doing.

When workers have a collective agreement, when money is set aside for them, I say the federal government has no right stealing their money to balance its budget and have a zero deficit just as I said it had no right stealing workers' money from the employment insurance fund.

Whether they are members of PSAC working in government offices or members of the RCMP, the government has been undermining their morale for years by denying them salary increases, and today by trying to lay its hands on their pension funds.

This is money that was negotiated at the bargaining table and it is money that belongs to workers, not to the Minister of Finance so that he can once again tell us what a fine job he is doing.

The way the Liberal government is going after the workers of this country is unacceptable and immoral. Whether it be EI or public sector pension funds, the money still comes out of workers' pockets.

That is not what the Liberals were saying. I say that it is unacceptable and that Canadians will not stand for it. The government has gone after those who have lost their jobs. Now, it is going after future retirees.

I find this deplorable. The government is completely in the wrong and Canadians will not forget it.

[Svend Robinson, NDP, Burnaby—Douglas, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I want to take the five or six minutes that remain to make a couple of comments with respect to two aspects of this legislation.

First, very briefly I want to associate myself with the comments made by my colleague, the member for Acadie—Bathurst, who spoke very eloquently about why the New Democratic Party is so profoundly opposed to this legislation.

Pensioners are being robbed of a $30 billion surplus. Let us be clear. There will be $15 billion taken from the public service pension plan, $2.4 billion from the RCMP and almost $13 billion from the Canadian forces. I join with my colleagues in saying that the New Democratic Party strongly opposes this provision in the legislation which will affect something like 670,000 public servants, including retirees and current contributors.

I also want to take this opportunity to deal with another issue and that is the issue of same sex benefits. I deeply regret that the government has chosen to include in legislation that deals with the pension surplus the issue of equity and justice for gay and lesbian people who are involved in committed, loving relationships.

I want to make it very clear that I and my colleagues strongly support this long overdue justice and equality for those who are involved in gay and lesbian relationships.

There are some who ask what this conjugal relationship is all about. Is it some new and dangerous provision in the legislation? Indeed, one of the Reform Party members, the hon. member for Souris—Moose Mountain, said that this bill would destroy the very moral fibre of the country. He said it is a dangerous, destructive bill.

The fact of the matter is that this bill is simply extending not any kind of special rights to gay and lesbian people who are involved in relationships, but equal rights and equal responsibilities. The Supreme Court of Canada ruled just last week in the case of M. v H. that gay and lesbian people are to be treated with equality and that includes those of us who are involved in committed, loving relationships.

For those who say that the notion of a conjugal relationship is something new and undefined, I suggest that they read existing legislation. For example, in the existing Members of Parliament Retiring Allowances Act there is a provision that on the death of a member or a former member extends a survivor's pension to any person of the opposite sex who establishes that the person was cohabiting in a conjugal relationship with the member or former member for at least one year immediately before the death of the member or former member.

It is in the legislation now. For those who say this is somehow a great attack on the moral fibre of the country and a dangerous and destructive new concept, I say: Where have they been? It is already there and it has not caused any difficulty in interpretation whatsoever.

There are federal public servants who contribute to pension plans, whether they be members of the Canadian armed forces, members of the RCMP or members of the public service, who are involved in gay or lesbian relationships. Why should they not be entitled to draw their pension as any other Canadian is entitled to do?

I received a letter recently from a woman in Vancouver who talked about her relationship with her partner of more than 13 years. She said that her partner had died of cancer. She was diagnosed with ovarian cancer. Before that she was an active, healthy, 48 year old woman. She said:

We shared everything as life partners. We were emotionally and financially interdependent. Every aspect of our lives was connected, inter-related. We celebrated our lives together and were embraced by family, friends, and many diverse communities.

We shared in the parenting of two children. I continue to care for them and support them as a co-parent myself and also on behalf of their mother who has died.

This was a family. This was a family of two lesbians who shared their lives. If they contributed to a pension plan, they should be entitled to that benefit.

Finally, I note that the Supreme Court of Canada in M. v H. has pointed out the characteristics of a conjugal relationship. It stated: “They include shared shelter, sexual and personal behaviour, services, social activities, economic support and children, as well as the societal perception of the couple”.

My relationship with my partner, Max, is an important part of my life, just as the relationships are of other members of the House who are heterosexual with their spouses. All I ask for, and all gay and lesbian people in this country ask for, is equality; nothing more and nothing less. For that reason we support those provisions of the bill, but we must oppose the theft of $30 billion in pension funds.

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland)]

It being 6.15 p.m., pursuant to order made on Thursday, May 13, 1999, it is my duty to interrupt the proceedings and put forthwith every question necessary to dispose of the third reading stage of the bill now before the House.

As hon. members know, there is an outstanding point of order also before the House and that point of order may be ruled upon at any time prior to the bill being read for the actual vote. The Speaker and the clerks are in consultation as we speak.

The question is on third reading of Bill C-78. Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[Some hon. members]

No.

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland)]

All those in favour of the motion will please say yea.

[Some hon. members]

Yea.

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland)]

All those opposed will please say nay.

[Some hon. members]

Nay.

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland)]

In my opinion the nays have it.

And more than five members having risen:

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland)]

Call in the members.

And the bells having rung: