Debates of May 25th, 1999

Public Sector Pension Investment Board Act

[An hon. member]

They cannot spend it.

[Lorne Nystrom, NDP, Qu'Appelle, SK]

A Liberal member is saying that they cannot spend it. This is very revealing. Maybe he should talk to retired public servants, retired RCMP officers and retired military personnel in the country. The Liberal government is saying that they cannot spend it, that they have too much money and that they cannot have higher pensions. The government says the Canada pension is better indexed. It says retirees cannot spend the money so it is going to take the money from them and use it for other purposes.

This is a Liberal member revealing in the House today that these retired pensioners cannot spend the money. I hope our pensioners understand that the Liberals' position is that pensioners cannot spend the money so it will take it use it for other purposes. That is a very revealing statement. I am sure, Mr. Speaker, that you, as a very non-partisan officer of the House, would be scandalized to get up in your place and comment on a question like that.

I hear laughter from across the way. The Liberals are embarrassed to hear this Liberal member from Hamilton saying that they cannot spend the money. What has been said today is very revealing. It is more revealing than when the minister got up and read a prepared and scripted text written by bureaucrats.

I want to make three points. The first point is that the government has really held the pensioners in the country in contempt by not having a proper public hearing on this bill today. It is a very major step and a major initiative. There should have been very extensive public hearings so pensioners could have had a say in what was happening to their money. If we had a parliamentary democracy that was worth writing home about, the pensioners would have had a say. However, that is not the case.

I noticed an article in the paper awhile ago by a very distinguished journalist, Doug Fisher. He said that the government was really holding the pensioners and the opposition parties in contempt. He said that the government was ignoring the parliament of the country by bringing in closure to force the bill through the House of Commons. I gather the Prime Minister will designate this as a confidence vote forcing Liberal backbenchers to vote with the government to make sure this is railroaded through the House.

The time has come for serious parliamentary change so some of the Liberals across the way, who do have some independent, free thinking minds, can get up and speak their minds and their piece on this. It is about time we had that kind of parliamentary reform and change, but that has not happened.

Later today the Prime Minister will use his power and his whips to make sure that Liberal trained seals on the backbenches get up and vote yes in favour of Bill C-78. That really is a tragedy and a shame in terms of our parliamentary democracy.

I am sure many Liberals across the way, like the member from downtown Toronto, are hanging their heads in shame because they cannot get up and speak their piece. All they can do is laugh at the plight of the pensioners.

I remember back in 1985 when Prime Minister Brian Mulroney tried to partially de-index old age pensions. There was a huge demonstration on Parliament Hill and grey power across the country organized rapidly. A little woman, Madam Denis, went up to the prime minister and said to him in French “You lied to us. Vous avez menti”. The people forced the largest majority government in the history of this country, which I believe had 211 seats and was sitting at over 50% in the polls, to back down. That government is not here today and one of the reasons is because of what it tried to do to seniors.

I remind the Liberal government that if it wants to take a leaf out of Brian Mulroney's book it is well on its way to alienating a lot of Canadians, a lot of seniors in this country. That is one point I wanted to make.

The other point I want to make concerns the investment board which will be set up to invest part of the money in the fund. We have discovered that there will not be any ethical screening of those investments. For example, the Canada pension plan now has an investment board which invests about 15% of CPP funds in the stock market. That investment is made in accordance with the TSE 300 Index, which means that some of the money is going into Imasco which owns Imperial Tobacco.

Imperial Tobacco is a company which is encouraging young people to smoke and become addicted to cigarettes. I think that contravenes a stated public policy of the Government of Canada, including the Minister of Health, that we are encouraging people to stop smoking. We are aiming campaigns at children to encourage them to stop smoking. On the other hand the Canada pension plan is tying part of its future success to kids who smoke by buying shares in Imperial Tobacco. I think that is wrong.

I know that the Minister of Finance is committed to look at that in terms of the Canada pension plan. I wish the minister in charge of this bill would also take a look at whether we should bring in ethical screening in terms of the investments board's investments when it comes to the superannuation of retired public servants. I do not think it is right to invest pensioners' money in companies like Imperial Tobacco and indeed other companies which pollute our atmosphere, which use child labour in different parts of the world and which are irresponsible socially and ethically. I would urge the government to amend this bill to bring in ethical investment guidelines. I would certainly support an amendment to that effect.

I cannot support a bill that is going to take $30 billion away from the pensioners of this country, but we could certainly improve the bill. That is what parliamentary democracy is all about, suggesting ideas and policies to make legislation better. However, again the trained seals across the way are going to vote in accordance with the Prime Minister's wishes. The member from the central part of Toronto, the member from Spadina, wants to be a cabinet minister, so he is not going to alienate the Prime Minister.

If we had some serious democratic reform in the House the member from Spadina could propose an amendment to bring in ethical screening of the investments made by the investment board. That is what we should be doing in this case and in other cases as well.

I want to address the whole question which has become controversial with some Liberal backbenchers, which is that the benefits will apply to people in conjugal relationships. The issue that is raised time and again is, are the rights of gays and lesbians to be treated the same as people in common law relationships. I certainly support that thrust of the bill.

I want to make it very clear that we should be treating people equally in this country, regardless of sexual orientation or personal circumstances. Therefore, I would appeal to Liberal members who are in opposition to that part of their own bill to support the thrust of the bill in terms of equality of people whether they are living in a common law relationship or whether they are gays and lesbians living in that type of relationship as well. That is very important. There was a supreme court decision very recently and I think we are making progress in that general area.

I want to say once again that I am discouraged closure was brought in on this bill. I was very dismayed to hear a Liberal member say in the House today that seniors do not need the $30 billion, that they could not spend it anyway. The member from Hamilton said “They could not spend it anyway”. Hansard will indicate that is exactly what he said from his seat on the far left-hand side of the House.

I also believe there should have been proper parliamentary hearings and discussions. There should have been hearings with retired military personnel, retired government workers and the RCMP over the direction of this bill and what to do with the money in the fund. That has not happened.

Let us make sure that when we set up investment funds, which is something new in terms of pension legislation in the country, we bring in the principle of ethical screening to make sure that the public funds being invested on behalf of pensioners in the future and today will be done ethically in accordance with the wishes of the vast majority of the Canadian people.

[Diane Ablonczy, Reform, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I was interested in my colleague's speech. As usual he was very articulate. We can tell who has been in the House for a while and who knows the issues.

I am concerned about something the member alluded to, which is the complicity of government members in the House. Instead of holding the government to account he said that they simply act like trained seals, and I could not disagree with that.

In committee this morning there were votes on estimates without any discussion or examination of the merits of these huge expenditures of money, and yet government members did not even want discussion. They just said “Yes, we will pass it”.

From this member's perspective, and I know he has been in the House a long time, even though he and I might not agree on some issues I think we both have a real concern about accountability and about the oversight function of members of parliament into the way the business of the country is run. I would like him to comment further on his perspective over the years about erosion. Perhaps there never was an oversight function in a meaningful way by members of the House.

I would like to know how we got so far down this road where essentially what we do in the House has no meaning and has almost no bearing on what the government does.

[Lorne Nystrom, NDP, Qu'Appelle, SK]

Mr. Speaker, I think there has been a real move toward executive government in the last 20 or 30 years.

I was first elected in 1968. Of course, I was about 12 years old then. I remember the great debate in 1969 when there was a move to take estimates off the floor of the House of Commons. The argument of the opposition in those days—the opposition leader was Mr. Stanfield, our leader was Tommy Douglas and Réal Caouette was the leader for the créditiste movement—was that the committees of the House must be strengthened to bring accountability to the committees of the House.

The House sat until the end of July. It was a debate that went on and on into the hot days and evenings of the summer of 1969. Of course that never happened. The Trudeau government rammed through the legislation in the end and we have the committees as we know them today.

I also remember 1984 when the Liberal Party came back with 40 some members after its great defeat at the hands of Brian Mulroney. In opposition those members started to talk a lot more about bringing in accountability. They wanted better parliamentary democracy, fewer confidence votes, more free votes and other things about which a lot of us are concerned. However, once they were elected again in 1993 they sort of forgot about that.

I remind members that the government across the way has had a majority for five years. It received 38% of the vote in one of the lowest turnouts in the history of the country when 67% of the people in the last election voted. When we take 38% of the 67%, it is sitting there with well under a third, probably a quarter of the Canadian people who have endorsed the government, and yet it has this awesome power of a majority and it cracks the whip all the time to make sure it happens.

I will give an example of what I mean. The other place, which we call the Senate, wants an increase of $5 million in its budget this year. It is, by definition, not elected, not accountable and not democratic.

We have checked with the procedural experts in your office, Mr. Speaker. No minister is responsible for the Senate. There is no one across the way who can answer on behalf of the Senate. If no minister is responsible for the Senate, therefore the government is not responsible for the Senate and therefore if one votes against the estimates of the Senate it is not a motion of non-confidence in the government across the way.

We will be having votes on the estimates, probably on June 9, and we will see the cracking of the whips as the Prime Minister deems the vote on the Senate estimates to be a matter of confidence.

The latest polls indicate that about 5% of Canadians support the existing Senate and 95% do not. Some Canadians want the Senate to be abolished, some want it to be reformed. That is not part of the argument. Five per cent of the people support the existing Senate, and yet the Prime Minister will crack the whips and deem that to be a confidence vote.

I think that is the best example of the need for radical parliamentary change to make this place democratic, meaningful and accountable to the Canadian people. It is actually quite embarrassing to vote for $5 million to be given to an institution which only 5% of the Canadian people want, especially when it will be deemed a confidence vote by the Prime Minister.

[Judy Wasylycia-Leis, NDP, Winnipeg North Centre, MB]

Mr. Speaker, I am very pleased to participate in the debate on Bill C-78 and to follow the words of my esteemed colleague, the member for Regina—Qu'Appelle, who has served this House and the Canadian public for some 28 years. I consider it a privilege to work with someone with that experience, who has made an incredible contribution not only for his own constituents but for Canadians everywhere.

I noticed, despite these 28 years of service, that my NDP colleague for Regina—Qu'Appelle used the word theft. That word was not singled out as being unparliamentary, but I understand it could be borderline and it is not an appropriate word to use. However, I think that word, if we were able to say it out loud in this place, would best characterize what we are dealing with when it comes to Bill C-78.

This reminds me of an issue I dealt with as a member of the legislative assembly of Manitoba in 1988 when we were dealing with serious and drastic cutbacks to our child care system engineered by the then Conservative government. I had been working with many groups trying to deal with and stop these cutbacks. My son, who is 10 years old today, was about 2 at the time and, having heard all of this talk from me about government cutbacks, proceeded to announce to the world that the Conservative government had come to his daycare and stolen all the money. Out of the mouths of babes come words of truth and wisdom. I think that is exactly what we are dealing with today. I wish I could say those words that would best epitomize just what Bill C-78 means.

I want to address a couple of points today along the lines of the remarks of my colleague for Regina—Qu'Appelle. The first has to do with the arbitrary, undemocratic way in which the government is handling this piece of legislation and the way it has approached just about every piece of legislation in this entire parliamentary session.

In all the times I have spoken in the House, and there have been a good number in the last couple of years, on just about every occasion I and my colleagues have been forced to deal with the issue of closure. Whenever a bill is presented to this House, debate starts to take off and the public starts to get interested, what does the government do? The government brings down the heavy instrument of closure, time allocation. I know my colleague from the Reform Party touched on this in her question about what has changed in our democracy and what has gone wrong. I think the trend is clear and worrisome.

I understand from some reports that closure was a very rarely used tool. Between Confederation and 1956 it was only used half a dozen times.

Let us compare that to how many times the government has brought in closure in the last two years. If my count is up to date, time allocation has been brought in 12 to 14 times in the space of two years. This is an incredible development, an incredible attack on our rights in the Chamber and on the whole notion of democracy. Is it any wonder Canadians are cynical and skeptical about politicians and about our democratic institutions when this kind of process is allowed to take place?

Some of those sentiments are best described in a letter that was sent to the Kitchener-Waterloo Record by David Crow, a retired airline pilot:

This is nothing more than autocracy masquerading as democracy.

Canadians now live in what can only be described as a benign dictatorship where policy decisions concerning their future are made behind closed doors. Amid the pomp and tradition of parliament lies a system which has become fractious, insensitive, remote and elitist. The antiquated system no longer has the support of most Canadians.

I would hope we would hear those words and understand and appreciate that if we are to renew people's faith in democracy, in parliament and in participatory democracy, surely we have to address what is happening in the Chamber and the shocking way in which the government has been so arbitrary and dictatorial.

Members of the House will remember the kind of anger the present House leader of the Liberal government displayed when the Conservatives brought in closure in their time in government. He went on a rampage about this tactic and actually said “Shame on those Tories across the way”.

Today the situation is much more serious. We say to the House leader and to all other members of the Liberal government, shame on them for bringing in closure so many times whenever there is an important issue before the House and whenever we need to hear from Canadians and value their input in order to put before the public the very best possible legislation. It is with regret that once more we are dealing with that issue and we will continue to speak out on it.

The next point I want to make is on the problems we have with the legislation on a substantive basis. I do not need to repeat all the arguments we have heard from the NDP on this issue time and time again. We are absolutely opposed to the bill which grabs $30 billion in pension surplus to be used at the discretion of the government, whether that be in general revenue or any other expenditure it chooses. We have registered time and time again our concern with that arbitrary move on the part of the government and with its failure to reach some sort of agreement with all the different organizations involved.

It has been said time and time again how important it is to honour and respect the contribution senior citizens have given to the country. The bill does the opposite. As my colleague from Regina said, it is holding pensioners in contempt by not recognizing their contribution and working out an arrangement to ensure the surplus is put to the best possible use.

Many have commented on how it is so ironic that the bill is before the House at the same time as the government is participating in this year's UN's international year of the older person, a year intended to mark the contributions of our senior citizens, to recognize their achievements and to create intergenerational respect and support.

Is it not ironic that we are dealing with a bill which does the opposite? At the same time we are trying to celebrate the international year of older persons which has been called “Canada: A Society for All Ages”. That is the height of hypocrisy which must be clearly noted in debate.

Some of my colleagues asked whether in looking for a reasonable approach to pension surplus the actual level of poverty among some of our senior citizens was considered and in particular the fact that older women were among the poorest of all poor. It was pointed out in earlier debate that a woman who served in the civil service for 20 years ended up with about $9,600 a year in retirement funds. The reallocation of this surplus toward people such as these women, the poorest of the poor in the country, would have made a big difference.

I have much more I would like to say, but I urge all members of the House to oppose Bill C-78 which takes $30 billion out of the pension funds.

As my hon. colleague from Regina did, I urge members on the Liberal side to reconsider their opposition to the bill on the basis that it is supporting a recognition of rights for people regardless of sexual orientation. We certainly support that provision but seriously and strongly oppose Bill C-78.

[Tony Ianno, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to President of the Treasury Board and Minister responsible for Infrastructure]

Mr. Speaker, it is ironic to watch the NDP and the Reform Party being on the same side of issue after issue. They pretend they are far away but whenever it gets to extremes we can see how they are closely tied.

Once again it is ironic to see that the NDP supports many parts of the bill yet is voting against issues for which it has fought for many years. The Reform Party's whole existence is about pension reform, the economy and money to taxpayers. All of a sudden there is $30 billion that belongs to the taxpayers and it is voting against the bill. It is amazing to watch the two join hands in the true western approach.

[An hon. member]

That does not make sense.

[Tony Ianno, Liberal, Trinity—Spadina, ON]

Of course it does. I was talking about the member from Regina who is always talking about amalgamating with the Reform and uniting the west.

[Lorne Nystrom, NDP, Qu'Appelle, SK]

Give me one quote.

[Tony Ianno, Liberal, Trinity—Spadina, ON]

Oh, come on. You guys are on the same side of the issue.

[An hon. member]

Oh, oh.

[Tony Ianno, Liberal, Trinity—Spadina, ON]

There they go, Mr. Speaker. Is it not something really funny when we see the Reform and the NDP joining hands? I think it is the most comical of situations.

The NDP, after working for so many years on some of the issues we have put forward, says that it wants public debate. When we were doing it in committee there was the CLC convention in Toronto so NDP members had to go there. However to pensioners and the union it says it is concerned about this issue and about the money. Where were the NDP when we were listening to the concerns of people?

If the concern is so great in the NDP, why was it not there when those people were present to state their case?

[Judy Wasylycia-Leis, NDP, Winnipeg North Centre, MB]

Mr. Speaker, let me respond to the hon. member's initial comment about inconsistencies in the NDP and the fact that on some occasions there seems to be some unity on the opposition benches.

The hon. member should realize that when that unity happens, when we speak with one voice, it is always when the government presents us with the most arbitrary, underhanded, undemocratic process imaginable. That is what unites us, because we are all here banding for a parliament that is in touch with the wishes of Canadians and operates on a democratic basis.

There is nothing inconsistent about the NDP's position. We have said from day one that we must always look for co-operative solutions to any problem before us. On the issue of pension surplus we have always said there was a process in place. It was working. It could have been carried to its logical conclusion. The government did not have to be so precipitous, bring in Bill C-78 and just take that $30 billion to use according to its own agenda.

We have always stood in this place and have spoken out against abuse of power. That is what we are doing today. It happens that other members on the opposition benches share that concern because it is so fundamental to democracy. We have always been there to participate every step of the way.

The government has brought in closure after four hours of debate on a major piece of legislation which takes $30 billion out of pension funds to be used for its own agenda. It does not allow for any kind of extended committee hearings across the country so that Canadians everywhere would have a chance to participate.

I suggest the member look in the mirror and see how his government could have improved the process so that all Canadians could have participated on a meaningful basis.

[The Deputy Speaker]

Perhaps it is time to move on to the next item of business rather than interrupting a speech in one or two minutes. Is it agreed that we proceed to Statements by Members?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

Agriculture

[Roy H. Bailey, Reform, Souris—Moose Mountain, SK]

Mr. Speaker, last week I spent three days viewing an area in my constituency that is suffering a severe financial disaster. At least 50% of the cultivated acres in five rural municipalities in my riding are under water. The remaining 50% will not be seeded this year.

This area is roughly the same size as the total number of farm acres on Prince Edward Island. The current disaster accompanied by a significant drop in farm income from previous years could spell an end to hundreds of farm operations.

Today I ask the minister of agriculture to join with his provincial counterpart to view the area that I have visited and to take the necessary steps to declare at least the five rural municipalities a disaster area.

Public Works

[Bryon Wilfert, Liberal, Oak Ridges, ON]

Mr. Speaker, today I congratulate the town of Richmond Hill in my riding for the many successful events last week during National Public Works Week.

The town has already won two consecutive national trophies for its public works awareness activities and is reigning champion in York Municipalities Public Works Challenge for the second year in a row.

Education was a major theme of this year's public works week. The town gave school tours of its operation centre and the Leslie Street pumping station. More than just that, it has taken the program directly to students.

The new Hawk program will feature students working with town staff to report problems to operations staff for their review and repair. A special council meeting is already planned for June to thank these responsible young citizens.

National Public Works Week is all about the quality of life in our community, and in my town the quality is exceptional.

World Population Day

[Jean Augustine, Liberal, Etobicoke—Lakeshore, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I rise today to inform the House about the upcoming World Population Day which was designated by the United Nations as July 11 of every year. It is a day to remind both nations and individuals about the implications of population growth.

On October 12 the world's population will reach six billion. This increase in population will present many challenges for Canada and the rest of the world in the next century. Some of the challenges include food insecurity, ensuring basic primary education for many children in the developing world, poverty alleviation, and the movement of people across borders.

In commemoration of this day the Canadian Association of Parliamentarians on Population and Development will organize a media campaign to raise awareness of the cross-cutting issues of population and development.

I encourage all my colleagues to participate in this campaign and to get involved in activities in their ridings to commemorate World Population Day.

Emploi-Québec

[Guy St-Julien, Liberal, Abitibi, QC]

Mr. Speaker, further to my remarks of May 5 concerning Emploi-Québec, here are the facts, as Claude Picher wrote in La Presse on May 20, 1999.

“It will no doubt be useful to point out that Emploi-Québec was created when the federal government left the manpower training and placement sector and transferred jurisdiction and funding for it to Quebec. Now that it has control over it, Quebec is demonstrating its inability to effectively assume its responsibilities.

“Minister Diane Lemieux is essentially trying to show that there is no problem and that everything is going well in the best of all worlds. This does not reflect the reality of the situation.

“Either the minister is unaware of what is going on in her own department, in which case it is high time that she began consulting her own officials, not her mandarins, but real people, those who meet reality daily. Or, and this is a more serious situation, the minister is well aware of the problems but is trying to hide them, like the member for Abitibi East”.

So, today, why the silence of the “blockers”, the friends of Lucien Bouchard?

Aboriginal Affairs

[John Finlay, Liberal, Oxford, ON]

Mr. Speaker, it is my privilege to rise today to acknowledge that last week was Aboriginal Awareness Week.

The Government of Canada recently launched the aboriginal and human resources development strategy which will help to fulfill our commitment under Gathering Strength, Canada's aboriginal action plan. This five year $1.6 billion strategy will build on past initiatives with aboriginal peoples across Canada.

The new strategy will enable aboriginal organizations to deliver a broader spectrum of human resource programming and will further reinforce the positive relationship that has been building between the Government of Canada and our aboriginal people.

The new strategy will also help address a broad range of human resource needs related to aboriginal youth, persons with disabilities, child care and several other social and economic challenges.

Aboriginal people demonstrate an unwavering spirit and dedicated determination in their ongoing efforts to achieve self-reliance and to nurture healthy communities.

Aboriginal awareness—

[The Speaker]

The hon. member for Scarborough—Rouge River.

Missing Children

[Derek Lee, Liberal, Scarborough—Rouge River, ON]

Mr. Speaker, today is National Missing Children's Day, a special day designed to raise awareness about the reality that children go missing in Canada every day. Fortunately most are recovered and this is due to the dedicated work of law enforcement agencies and their partners. I applaud their hard work and successes in recovering missing children each year.

The federal missing children's program is a collaborative effort of the RCMP's missing children's registry, Revenue Canada's international project return, Citizenship and Immigration Canada and the Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade.

The annual report of the RCMP's missing children's registry shows that runaways account for 80% of all reported cases of missing children. Since the creation of the missing children's program in 1986, a total of 815 children have been recovered at ports of entry across Canada.

A key element of this government's public safety mandate is to keep our streets and homes safe for our children. Our goals will only be achieved through strong partnerships and ongoing commitments to—

[The Speaker]

The hon. member for Frontenac—Mégantic.

Rail Transportation

[Jean-Guy Chrétien, Bloc, Frontenac—Mégantic, QC]

Mr. Speaker, more than four years ago, the Quebec Central Railway closed down the Sherbrooke-Lévis section of its operations. Jean-Marc Giguère, the Beauce area man promoting this line, has met with nothing but refusals from the federal government , while the Government of Quebec has already announced its financial participation.

On two occasions, the secretary of state for regional development in Quebec has refused to meet with businessmen from the Beauce and Amiante regions. In the meantime, this government has invested $16 million into the Winnipeg-Churchill rail line in Manitoba.

It seems that the Liberal member for Beauce has already said he would lay his seat on the line to get his government to support Mr. Giguère's project. Given the steadfast refusal by the secretary of state, are we to begin preparing for an imminent by-election in the riding of Beauce?

The Late Owen Hart

[Rob Anders, Reform, Calgary West, AB]

Mr. Speaker, today I wish to express our deepest sympathies to the family of Owen Hart who was tragically killed this past Sunday night.

The Hart family is known worldwide as the first family of wrestling. Owen followed in the respected footsteps of his older brothers and his father when he began wrestling professionally in 1986. He was an outstanding athlete and an inspiration for so many.

For a moment though, I would like to put aside the fame and simply reflect on Owen and his family.

Stu and Helen have been married for over 50 years. At their anniversary party last year I could see that everyone who knows them loves them. Owen was the youngest of their 12 children. He was a devoted husband of 17 years to Martha, and father of two, Oje, age 7 and Athena, age 3.

Owen always made time to visit the children's hospital and said “Say your prayers, take your vitamins and drink your milk”.

To the Hart family I can only say that behind your dignified public composure I know Owen's death is a terrible, terrible loss for you. I thank you for sharing Owen with us. We grieve with you.