Debates of March 27th, 2000

Economic Development Agency

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, if there are problems of this nature I know that the minister will make sure the problems are corrected immediately.

[Chuck Strahl, Reform, Fraser Valley, BC]

Mr. Speaker, we see another coincidence here. Once again the government waited until the official opposition made an access request before it released the results of this damning internal audit. It sat on the latest one for over a year.

CEDA spends more than $300 million a year, so I can see why it wanted to keep those audits hidden. But audits are supposed to cause the government and the department to act. They are supposed to cause the government to fix the problems. But after three audits the quote in the document once again is “The situation has been—the same”.

If the results of these audits are so bad that they have to be hidden, why are they not bad enough for the government to fix them?

[Martin Cauchon, Liberal, Minister of National Revenue and Secretary of State (Economic Development Agency of Canada for the Regions of Quebec)]

Mr. Speaker, we simply do not know if they are talking about the Economic Development Agency of Canada, but if that is the case, I am pleased to report that since 1994 we have modified our program. We are managing two programs in economic development and we are getting involved in the economic development of all regions of the province of Quebec.

I am also pleased to report that we are working in close co-operation with the auditor general. We have internal audits on a yearly basis. We are monitoring the situation properly.

As well, I would like to focus on the fact that our programs are now ISO-9002.

[Chuck Strahl, Reform, Fraser Valley, BC]

Mr. Speaker, it is exactly these audits, this monitoring, that we are talking about. Three successive audits in a row have come to the same conclusion. The problem is still systemic and it is still in this department. They have not fixed a thing.

This raises the questions: Why does it take access to information requests to get the government to release audits to begin with? Why has the Minister of Human Resources Development withheld 30 separate access to information requests from the official opposition, in contravention of the access act? Why has the minister in charge of the Canada Economic Development Agency ignored his own internal audits which say that he has lost control of departmental spending under his control?

[Martin Cauchon, Liberal, Minister of National Revenue and Secretary of State (Economic Development Agency of Canada for the Regions of Quebec)]

Mr. Speaker, I simply do not know exactly where the members are going. I guess it must be part of their dream.

On a yearly basis the Economic Development Agency has internal audits. We keep focusing on the reports. We are monitoring the situation in a very proper manner.

We have been involved in economic development for quite some time. We are pleased with the results we have provided people. We will keep working on the economic development of the region. We will keep working to ensure that we continue to create jobs across Canada.

Human Resources Development

[Gilles Duceppe, Bloc, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

Mr. Speaker, since we started asking questions about Placeteco, the Minister of Human Resources Development has been unable to respond.

Furthermore, the auditor general tells us that only a police investigation will reveal any political interference. Finally, the papers are talking about corruption in connection with what has been going on at Department of Human Resources Development.

With a situation of such disastrous proportions, is it not time the Prime Minister understood that he must call a police investigation, ask the police to act as quickly as possible to bring this situation fully to light?

[Bonnie Brown, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of Human Resources Development]

Mr. Speaker, we are having a display of people taking items out of context in what the auditor general said. He actually said that he believed the six point plan was a very thorough plan for corrective action. As we conduct our own audit in HRDC we intend to assess the department's progress in implementing this plan.

As for the police, he did not say that was the only way to get to the bottom of the problem. They are misquoting him again.

[Gilles Duceppe, Bloc, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I think she should have read the report, but that is too much to ask of her.

In the case of CITEC, a police investigation was initiated within 24 hours of the facts' coming to light. Despite the many revelations in the Placeteco matter, no investigation has been called.

Are we to understand that the reticence of the Prime Minister to initiate a police investigation into the Placeteco matter is directly related to the fact that too many of his friends are involved, very intimately so, and very closely to the Prime Minister?

[The Speaker]

We are very close to ascribing motives. I will ask members to choose their words very carefully.

[Bonnie Brown, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of Human Resources Development]

Mr. Speaker, the answer is no.

The reason we have not called for a police investigation is because there would be preliminary steps taken before that. The first one would be the need to establish an overpayment. We have been through the invoices and the receipts. They match the funds we have given. Therefore there is no need to establish an overpayment.

Without an overpayment we would not even order a forensic audit, much less call the police. The idea is nonsense.

[Michel Gauthier, Bloc, Roberval, QC]

Mr. Speaker, at the beginning of the whole scandal at Human Resources Development Canada, the Prime Minister told us that there were problems with only 37 files, that the moneys involved did not exceed $250 and that this really was a minor issue.

Today, we realize, particularly as regards Placeteco, that the amounts involved are much larger than that.

Can the Prime Minister tell us why he still refuses to order an investigation into this file? Is it because the people involved are close friends of the Prime Minister? Is he concerned about his leadership? What is the problem?

[Bonnie Brown, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of Human Resources Development]

Mr. Speaker, I do not know how many times we have to repeat the same thing.

There has to be a basis upon which to call for a police investigation. Our review of this file suggests there is no basis. We cannot go out on a limb, calling for police for no reason. That would be ridiculous.

[Michel Gauthier, Bloc, Roberval, QC]

Mr. Speaker, how can the parliamentary secretary say there is no basis for calling for an investigation, considering that some people are involved in a number of capacities, that we are talking about an amount of $1.2 million, that no one in the government can explain where that money went and that there were privileged contacts between certain people and the National Bank?

This file does not make sense. The more we get answers, the less clear things become. An investigation would be in order for much less than that. The Prime Minister was quicker on the draw in the case of CITEC.

[Bonnie Brown, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of Human Resources Development]

Mr. Speaker, again the member is making allegations. If he wants to make allegations he should bring them forward.

Our evidence suggests that there is absolutely no basis for a police investigation. If he wants to make allegations, let him do that and we will investigate.

Health

[Alexa McDonough, NDP, Halifax, NS]

Mr. Speaker, the Prime Minister went to Calgary. He met with the premier, and he blinked.

According to the auditor general, even before the federal government cash transfers for health, the government has never taken action to protect the five principles of medicare.

Let me quote: “Health Canada does not have the information it needs to monitor compliance with the act. The only departmental evaluation undertaken was limited, and it was five years before its results were reported to parliament”.

How can this government protect the five principles of the Canada Health Act with its eyes wide shut?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, I was extremely clear with the premier. I said that he would have to respect the five conditions of medicare. He said that he would like to respect them and he does not want to break them. We will see how he operates, but we have done it to him once and we will have to do it twice if he does not respect them.

We had a problem of the same nature with the NDP government of B.C. It blinked, not us, because it had to accept our conditions. Otherwise money would have been cut in the transfer for social programs.

[Alexa McDonough, NDP, Halifax, NS]

Mr. Speaker, first the federal government cut the cash transfers for health. Then it is a wink and a nod with Ralph Klein and everything is supposed to be fine. Everything is not fine. Everything is not fine for patients who find they have to pay up to $4,000 for routine eye surgery.

Why should Canadians believe that the government will protect the five principles of the Canada Health Act when the auditor general says that it will not?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, we have done it once. In one of the big arguments of Premier Klein he gave me the list and said he would like to do in Alberta what the socialist governments of B.C., Saskatchewan and Manitoba are doing.

I said to him that if they break the five conditions they will have to comply the same way as anybody. If anyone breaks the five conditions of medicare, we will cut the cash transfers to them.

Human Resources Development

[Peter MacKay, Progressive Conservative, Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough, NS]

Mr. Speaker, we have received information indicating that the RCMP have been contacted and may be investigating an organization called Advanced Career Training Institute, a computer school, for alleged misuse of HRDC money.

The minister spoke of the basis for investigation. Will the minister for HRDC now confirm that ACTI has received government money and is currently being investigated for potentially criminal acts?

[Bonnie Brown, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of Human Resources Development]

Mr. Speaker, it surprises me that a former crown attorney would ask questions of this sort. It is totally inappropriate for us to comment on details of any particular case because it is up to the police to comment on their own investigations.

As part of the six point action plan all project files are being reviewed by officials, overpayments will be collected, and any wrongdoings will be referred to the police. Certainly I do not want to be a party to getting in the way of the police.

[Peter MacKay, Progressive Conservative, Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough, NS]

Mr. Speaker, it surprises me that a former teacher could not give a straight answer to a straight question.

In December 1998 students of ACTI complained to a Liberal member from Kitchener Centre that there were no graduates, no qualified instructors and no classes at that school. In a letter to that member the student was told that there was no problem, the school was exemplary and it served its participants and taxpayers well. Was the complaint to the minister acted upon, or was it even forwarded to the minister?

[Bonnie Brown, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of Human Resources Development]

Mr. Speaker, I can assure the House that the number of ongoing police investigations this year is consistent with the number of investigations over past years.

Several of the current investigations have been ongoing for quite some time, certainly prior to the release of the audit. As soon as any irregularities are identified, appropriate action is taken in accordance with guidelines.

In many of the cases HRDC initiated the referrals to the RCMP, but not in all cases. I would suggest that if the member has questions about police investigations he ask the police.

Economic Development Agency

[Charlie Penson, Reform, Peace River, AB]

Mr. Speaker, an internal audit faulted Economic Development Canada's management of its small business program on the same broken rules that we have come to expect from the Liberal government.

What did the auditors find? They found that the program was too flexible. It was not applied uniformly across the province. There was a lack of compliance with eligibility requirements and a deficient economic analysis of the firms and regions receiving funding. Do we now have Industry Canada adopting HRDC's management style?

[Martin Cauchon, Liberal, Minister of National Revenue and Secretary of State (Economic Development Agency of Canada for the Regions of Quebec)]

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to report that with program review we have decided to establish in Canadian Economic Development two main programs to get involved in the economic development of the regions.

I am pleased to report as well that on a yearly basis we are working with internal audits. We are monitoring the situation and so far it goes very well because of the experience and expertise we have within the department.

Members on the other side must not be very pleased with that because based on their platform in 1993 they would have destroyed all the tools given to the Canadian government in order to get involved in the economic development of the regions. They are Reformers, former Reformers. Let me tell—

[The Speaker]

The hon. member for Peace River.