Debates of Nov. 8th, 2001

Canada National Marine Conservation Areas Act

[Pat Martin, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Mr. Speaker, the hon. member is quite right. The amendments the NDP put forward were voted against at report stage by the Liberal government. It chose not to support our amendments. If I was unclear on that, I apologize. The very thoughtful and important amendments that were put forward would have strengthened any marine conservation act.

Issues such as bottom trawling should have been dealt with. It is negligent to have not referred to that or to have specifically itemized such a harmful practice in our marine environment. If we are dealing with marine conservation and trying to balance development versus conservation, how could we fail to comment on that?

Blasting and drilling; talk about invasive practices. I have worked on oil rigs. I know what it takes to drill a hole in the ground and the type of impact it has on the environment.

Building pipelines and sonar devices is another example. Underwater pipelines are going to be a reality as more and more we are seeking fossil fuel resources offshore. Underwater pipelines are a reality, yet we have chosen to be silent on that issue. We feel that is an omission. It borders on negligence on our part to not have that specifically referred to. If in fact we are dealing with trying to balance development versus conservation, where more appropriately should this issue belong than in Bill C-10? Where else would we speak to it?

As to the hon. member's position that this is not a piece of environmental legislation, it is all environmental legislation. How do we separate development, conservation or environmentalism if it is not a common thread? If we do not view economic development through a green screen, then we are guilty of criminal negligence. It is overstating it to say it is criminal negligence but it is a serious omission on our part in the House of Commons.

[Louis Plamondon, Bloc, Bas-Richelieu—Nicolet—Bécancour, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I want to ask a question of the hon. member—because he did not address this in his speech—concerning the unconstitutional nature of the legislation. Clause 5(2) of the bill clearly states that the federal government will have to be the owner of the lands or sites where conservation areas will be established. Yet subsection 92(5) of the Constitution Act, 1867, clearly states that the sale of public lands is an exclusive provincial jurisdiction.

Therefore, should we not rewrite this part of the bill to respect provinces such as Quebec which already has an act prohibiting it from selling its own lands to the federal government? This way we would respect the jurisdictions of the provinces, particularly Quebec.

[Pat Martin, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Mr. Speaker, that is true. I did not comment on the jurisdictional issue but I do respect the arguments put forward by the members of the Bloc Quebecois. They have a legitimate concern.

We too are suspect of secondary objectives the ruling party may be trying to achieve when it puts forward legislation of this nature. I do not blame the Bloc for being suspect, that there may be secondary objectives floating beneath the surface of the bill.

[Wendy Lill, NDP, Dartmouth, NS]

Mr. Speaker, it is my pleasure to debate Bill C-10 at third reading.

I have a great deal of respect and admiration for the work done by the member for Windsor--St. Clair. He has been a passionate advocate for marine parks and marine conservation.

I am proud to speak to the issue of marine parks but sadly, I cannot say that we support Bill C-10 at the present time. We believe it creates a false sense of security that our valuable natural resources would be protected when in fact we do not believe that is true at this point.

I am from Nova Scotia. We understand the importance of the ocean as a source of economic activity and a valuable resource that needs protection. We desperately need to have marine parks created in my region to protect some incredible natural areas from oil and gas exploration and from the impact of overfishing and bottom dredging that destroys rare and valuable deep coral.

The most obvious example of an area needing protection off Nova Scotia at this point is the Scotia Gully, sometimes called Canada's Grand Canyon. Approximately 260 kilometres off the east coast of Nova Scotia lies the largest underwater canyon on the east coast of North America. This unique marine environment is home to 15 species of dolphins and whales, many species of fish including halibut, cod, redfish, swordfish, tuna, salmon and squid, as well as deep sea corals and other little-known bottom dwelling invertebrate animals.

This diverse ecosystem is currently being threatened by oil and gas exploration off the Nova Scotia coast. Federal and provincial governments have granted over 50 oil and gas exploration licences in an area surrounding the gully. One proposed project lies only five kilometres from the gully's edge; imagine that, five kilometres from the Grand Canyon of our coast. Immediate action must be taken to protect the gully from this and other oil exploration projects. The area needs the protection of a marine park.

Larger than the famous Grand Canyon, Nova Scotia's gully extends to a depth of 1.5 kilometres in some areas and is over 70 kilometres long and 20 kilometres wide. This unique marine ecosystem has long been recognized by the government as an ecologically important area.

In 1992 Parks Canada declared the gully to be a natural area of Canadian significance, while in 1998 DFO designated the area as a pilot marine protected area. However, during the same decade, oil exploration was occurring in the area at an alarming rate. Licences for gas and oil exploration around the gully cover an area of over six million hectares. Current projects are moving closer toward the gully's edge.

The Sable offshore energy project's pipeline runs only 30 kilometres from the gully while the project proposed by Primrose Field is an alarming five kilometres from the edge. Aside from the possible threats from chemical pollution and sedimentation from the projects, the gully is also threatened by acoustic pollution that has the potential to disrupt whale communication.

In order for the gully to be adequately protected, it needs to be designated as a marine protected area under the Oceans Act. A buffer zone surrounding the gully would also help protect the habitat.

The gully is the home of bottlenose whales which appear to remain separate from other populations of the same species and are considered to be genetically distinct from them. These rare whales live in the gully, and a park should protect them. I wish Bill C-10 did.

On top of the threat by drilling, bottom dredging by fishing boats, both domestic and foreign, is also destroying parts of this valuable canyon. Under the current bill before us, this marine park could be created but the threats to the natural heritage of the site would continue.

Do not get me wrong. I want marine parks as do all members of the New Democratic Party but I want equivalent protection for these parks as terrestrial parks. That is why I support the amendments at report stage from our party's environmental critic which would have allowed for real protection of areas like the gully.

Our amendments would have prohibited harmful activities currently allowed under the bill such as bottom trawling, blasting and drilling, building pipelines and using harmful sonar devices. These activities are recognized by all, except the government and the Alliance Party, to be completely incompatible with the intent of marine conservation areas and detrimental to the ecosystems that they are intended to protect.

Sadly, the government saw fit to defeat the amendments of the member for Windsor--St. Clair. Therefore I am forced to oppose the bill at third reading. I am afraid that this party has to say that we will have to continue to work further in other areas with environmental groups to try to strengthen this legislation in days to come.

I am not alone in feeling that a better bill is required. The document “Scientific Consensus Statement” signed by 161 leading marine scientists and experts on marine reserves supports me. The signatories to this document all hold Ph.D. degrees and are employed by academic institutions. I would like to put forward some of the conclusions from this document on what marine conservation areas can do if there is real protection.

If there is real protection with a real marine protection act we could see reserves result in long lasting and often rapid increases in the abundance, diversity and productivity of marine organisms. Marine reserves can reduce the probability of extinction for marine species resident within them. Increased marine reserve size results in increased benefits, but even small reserves have positive effects. Full protection, which usually requires adequate enforcement and public involvement, is critical to achieve this full range of benefits. Marine protected areas do not provide the same benefits as marine reserves.

In the few international studies that have been done which have examined spillover effects, the size and abundance of exploited species increased in areas adjacent to reserves. There is increasing evidence that reserves replenish populations regionally via larval export.

There is increasing evidence that a network of reserves buffers against the vagaries of environmental variability and provides significantly greater protection for marine communities than a single reserve. An effective network needs to span large geographic distances and encompass a substantial area to protect against catastrophes and provide a stable platform for the long term persistence of marine communities.

With the analysis of the best available evidence from scientists around the world, we conclude that reserves or marine conservation areas conserve fisheries and biodiversity. To meet goals for fisheries and biodiversity conservation, reserves must encompass the diversity of marine habitats.

Reserves are the best way to protect resident species and provide heritage protection to important habitats. Reserves must be established and operated in the context of other management tools. Reserves need a dedicated program to monitor and evaluate the impact both within and outside their boundaries. Reserves provide a critical benchmark for the evaluation of threats to ocean communities. Networks of reserves will be necessary for long term fisheries and conservation efforts. Existing scientific information justifies the immediate application of fully protected marine reserves as a central management tool.

Sadly the Liberal government does not seem interested in science. The bill fails to meet the minimum needs to allow for real protection either within the marine parks or in the adjacent areas of the marine parks or as part of a network. It is my sincere hope that the government will return to this matter and fix these problems in the near future.

[Jim Karygiannis, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I represent a riding that is landlocked, with no attachment to any lake or ocean, however, I have a keen interest in the environment. The environment is a concern for everyone. We cannot escape the emissions from gas spewed from cars in downtown Toronto or in uptown Scarborough in my riding.

However, I would like to bring to the attention of my colleagues the positive work regarding the environment which is done by the schools in my riding. Every year schools in my riding engage in tree planting, refuse collection and marine cleanup and preservation.

I have two small man made ponds in my riding which are looked after by local schools. We have brought in marine and fowl habitat. Just a few years ago the Terraview-Willowfield Public School and Community Association, with a grant from the federal government, created such a pond. It is a pleasure to visit it and see children playing. This is one of the prime examples of marine habitat in an urban area. I challenge other members to bring such examples to light. I was wondering if the hon. member could bring forth such an example from her riding.

[Wendy Lill, NDP, Dartmouth, NS]

Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the comments of the hon. member. I have spoken widely about a very central and valuable environmental resource in my beloved province of Nova Scotia and that is the Gully.

I urge all members in the House to think about their own particular regions and areas that have to be protected and then look very closely at the bill that is in front of us today, Bill C-10, and try to determine if there are in fact enough protections within this document to allow for the ongoing sanctity of the environmental jewels that exist in each one of our ridings in this beautiful country.

[Gilles-A. Perron, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I want to make a few comments for the hon. member from Nova Scotia, a province which she seems really fond of, and remind her that the problem with the Grand Canyon of the east is similar to the one that we experienced in Quebec. I am referring to the Saguenay—St. Lawrence marine park.

We had a similar problem and, in 1997, the federal and Quebec governments passed mirror legislation creating the Saguenay—St. Lawrence marine park. That legislation resulted in the establishment of the first marine conservation area in Canada.

Does the hon. member believe that this type of legislation, which is unique to Quebec and Canada, this partnership with Quebec, could be a solution to the problem, by preventing the federal government from getting involved in a provincial matter? I wonder if the hon. member would comment on this.

[Wendy Lill, NDP, Dartmouth, NS]

Mr. Speaker, I want to thank the member from the Bloc for his comments. I have heard about the bill and the area in question, the Saguenay marine park, and I have to credit the government of Quebec for understanding the importance of that protection and for getting involved immediately and working to protect that area without waiting for a federal act.

However I do not believe that we always can leave the responsibility with the provincial governments. The country is so vast and so precious that we have to make sure there is a federal jurisdiction involved and that we will not have two tier parks and a patchwork quality of environmental legislation across the country. I would worry greatly about that.

Although I admire the work that has been done in Quebec on this issue, I do not believe that it might be the same case across the country.

[Grant McNally, Canadian Alliance, Dewdney—Alouette, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I welcome the opportunity to speak on behalf of the PC/DR coalition to Bill C-10, an act respecting the national marine conservation areas of Canada.

While coalition members generally are supportive of the concept of marine conservation areas, we do have some concerns as to the details included within the bill which, as enabling legislation, would set the framework for the creation of these areas. I will outline some of these concerns as will some of my colleagues, but notwithstanding the concerns we have with the bill, coalition members will be supporting the legislation.

To begin, as a new member of the parliamentary Standing Committee on Canadian Heritage I want to say that much work had been done on the bill by my colleagues prior to my arrival. I commend them for their good work. The parliamentary committee heard testimony previous to this fall and recently heard interventions from other concerned individuals, many of whom were from my home province of British Columbia.

Opposition members from all parties have raised valid concerns about the bill. To the government's credit it has considered some of these concerns and at least attempted to implement some changes based on the input from the testimony of the witnesses along with issues raised by opposition members. This was most notably demonstrated in the House at report stage when the parliamentary secretary took the intent of an amendment from my colleague from Skeena to move forward on making sure that a report--

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bélair)]

On a point of order, the hon. member for Charlevoix.

[Gérard Asselin, Bloc, Charlevoix, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order. I think that the member now speaking has devoted considerable time to his research. He is making a very important speech in the House. I therefore ask you to check whether we have a quorum and, if not, to call in the members.

And the count having been taken:

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bélair)]

As we now have a quorum, we will resume debate.

[Grant McNally, Canadian Alliance, Dewdney—Alouette, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I thank my colleague from the Bloc highlighting the importance of being here to listen to this very important speech. I appreciate that.

The test of our success in how we deal with the bill will be measured in months and years to come in the implementation of this legislation. It is my hope that the intent of the bill will be maintained through government policy concerning the creation of marine conservation areas.

The concept of creating marine conservation areas is supported in principle by PC/DR coalition members. The preamble to the bill outlines these principles of preserving representative areas within the Atlantic, Arctic and Pacific Oceans and the Great Lakes. The intent is to create a total of 29 marine conservation areas across the country in these regions.

The main concern the coalition has raised, and others have raised it as well, surrounds the implementation process of these conservation areas. There must be a solid process of consultation with local coastal communities before these areas are established. I have referred to the preamble on page 2 of the bill, lines 7 to 14, which says that parliament wishes to affirm the need to:

--involve federal and provincial ministers and agencies, affected coastal communities, aboriginal organizations, aboriginal governments, bodies established under land claims agreements and other appropriate persons and bodies in the effort to establish and maintain the representative system of marine conservation areas;--

For areas that are under provincial jurisdiction, the bill clearly outlines a collaborative process in clause 5 which reaffirms the need to work together on the creation of a marine conservation area. The bill is less clear in regard to lands and areas that may be under jurisdictional dispute between a province and the federal government. To provide for greater certainty on this issue, the coalition proposed an amendment at committee which would have called on the federal government to obtain a legal ruling on such an area before proceeding with the creation of a marine conservation area. In other words, if an area were under dispute the federal government would not go ahead with the creation of a marine conservation area until the dispute was settled. Unfortunately this amendment was defeated. I think it would have added more clarity and strengthened the bill.

The government's argument is that it would only proceed if it had strong legal reasons to believe it had an unencumbered right of title to the proposed area. Nevertheless, if an area is in dispute the government could simply proceed with the creation of a marine conservation area, forcing a province to fight such a move in the courts if the province believed that it had the same unencumbered right of title to the same area.

Let me state that this was not the intent of the government. That came out in committee. Department officials clearly indicated that the intent was not to create an MCA in such a unilateral manner. The government has given reassurances on that front as well. Provisions within the bill also seem to lean in that direction. However, it will be up to the minister to ensure the true intent of the bill.

My colleague from Delta--South Richmond, who is a very studious member of the House, has questions as to whether this is actually worth something and whether we can trust the government. I maintain those same concerns, hoping that the government will proceed on a path where it does more than simply consult, and in way that includes the coastal communities, particularly fishing concerns, which I know my colleague has particular concerns about because he is an expert in that area. We can only tell through the test of time whether the government will in fact prove that we should have trust in it in this particular area. I think we need to remain guarded on that.

Let me say that the implementation of each and every marine conservation area established or modified in Canada would have to go through this consultative process. Some have concerns that an MCA may be created or enlarged by simply passing an order of the governor in council, which some see as a back door way of imposing one of these areas without full consultation.

For that to happen an amendment must be brought to parliament for debate. The report must include, and I quote from subclause 7(1) of the bill:

(a) information on consultations undertaken, including a list of the names of organizations and persons consulted, the dates of the consultation and a summary of their comments, and any agreements reached respecting the establishment of the area or reserve, and

(b) an interim management plan that sets out management objectives and a zoning plan—

I will return to an important clause that was amended in committee with the aim of alleviating concerns that the government may impose a zone on an area without its consent. Subclause 10(1) of the bill states:

The Minister shall consult with relevant federal and provincial ministers and agencies, with affected coastal communities, aboriginal organizations, aboriginal governments and bodies established under land claims agreements, and with other persons and bodies that the Minister considers appropriate in the development of marine conservation area policy and regulations, the establishment of any proposed marine conservation area and the modification of any marine conservation area, and any other matters that the Minister considers appropriate.

Regardless of the area of jurisdiction, whether provincial, federal or lands that may be in dispute, it is quite clear that the new law would require consultation. It would be a positive strengthening of the bill. It is my hope that the Liberal government would act within both the letter and spirit of the clause.

Too often we have seen the government move ahead unilaterally on issues. This does not work well to build positive federal provincial relationships. Of particular importance is the need to consult coastal communities where the areas would be established. The consultative clauses must be adhered to if the government wishes to build support for the legislation. Advisory committees would be established as outlined in subclause 11(3) of the bill. I will read it into the record. It states:

The Minister shall consult with relevant federal and provincial ministers and agencies, with affected coastal communities, aboriginal organizations, aboriginal governments and bodies established under land claims agreements, and with other persons and bodies that the Minister considers appropriate with respect to the composition of advisory committees.

There is a repeated pattern of language that is similar. I have read it into the record to reassure those who have concerns about consultation and to admonish the government to remember these parts of the bill when it creates the zones.

There are others who have concerns about different types of activities in marine conservation areas. Fishing is permitted under licence. This is noted in subclause 15(3) which states:

For greater certainty, the superintendent of a marine conservation area may not amend, suspend or revoke a fishing licence issued under the Fisheries Act.

I will focus on the enforcement aspect of Bill C-10. The act would be administered by marine conservation area wardens as outlined in clauses 18 to 23. The wardens would be tasked with enforcing the act. They would be peace officers as outlined in the criminal code.

Would the wardens be properly equipped with sidearms to carry out their duties? What would they do when confronted by individuals in contravention of the act? What would they say to people removing sensitive marine items from the area or dumping pollutants into the water? Would they say stop or I will splash?

This brings to mind the hardworking parks wardens tasked with enforcing the National Parks Act. I met with some of the wardens last week who are responsible for enforcement. They outlined their frustration with having to enforce the National Parks Act without a sidearm.

There are people who regularly break the parks act by removing sensitive material such as ancient fossils and other artifacts which are then sold illegally for large sums of money. Poachers are another serious problem in national parks such as Banff, Jasper and others. Some individuals illegally take out big horned sheep, bear bladders or other animals and sell the contraband for thousands of dollars.

This is going on now. Wardens are unable to battle the lawbreakers to the best of their ability because they are not properly equipped with sidearms. RCMP officers currently patrol the parks. However they are severely limited in their ability to enforce the act in the back country away from the paved highways they travel.

These are areas the wardens know. They should be able to patrol them with the appropriate tools to stop those who would abuse the laws and illegally remove animal species and our national treasures.

At the same time the policy pursued by the heritage minister takes away resources from the RCMP that could be deployed in a more strategic and beneficial way, especially since the demands on them have been greatly increased following the events of September 11.

It would make sense to give wardens in our national parks the tools to do their job. Will the heritage minister undertake to provide sidearms to our park wardens so they can uphold the law, protect our parks and bring lawbreakers to justice? Will she do the same for marine conservation area wardens who would be faced with the same conflicts?

Clause 13 of the bill focuses on banning oil and gas exploration in the Marine Conservation Areas Act. Concerns have been brought forward by many individuals that the clause may be used to shut down the development of offshore oil and gas before it has a chance to be established in some regions of the country. Departmental officials have assured committee members that is not the intent of the legislation.

I referred earlier in my speech to an amendment that was brought forward which indicates the government must undertake appropriate resource testing to ensure potential marine conservation areas are not established where there is a significant possibility of oil and gas development. This is of particular concern in British Columbia where the new Liberal government is undertaking a study to determine whether it will lift the moratorium on offshore oil and gas development.

There must be a balance between important environmental concerns and the potential economic development of resources that could significantly benefit areas that have proportionately low populations and limited economic development bases.

Is this a perfect bill? No, it is not. Is the notion of preserving representative areas of our marine regions as conservation areas a good idea? Yes, it is. As I have outlined, the coalition hopes and expects that the government will proceed in a consultative manner to build consensus with communities surrounding areas designated for the creation of marine conservation areas.

Protecting our environment is important and necessary not only so Canadians can enjoy it now but so future generations can enjoy it as well. We hope the government will be able to accomplish this goal in a balanced manner by ensuring that affected people and communities are an essential part of the process of establishing marine conservation areas.

Our support hinges on the degree of good faith the minister demonstrates in sticking to the consultative processes outlined in the bill. It also hinges on her ability to build trust through meaningful consultation with local coastal communities. If the minister can do that she will be able to accomplish a good thing in creating these marine conservation areas. She will be able to build support for her idea.

This is the model we should be moving to in the House. I was encouraged that the government acted on some of the amendments of my colleague from Skeena. The member did a good job in committee and should be commended for it. We did not all agree with every notion and idea he brought forward, but he worked hard and diligently as did other members from the Liberal Party, the Bloc and the NDP.

We did not all get what we wanted in the bill. No one gets everything they want in a bill, including government members. If we want this place to change we must take these steps. If we want to engage members of parliament in a meaningful way and send a message to the people of our country that the business we do here is important, means something and reflects the opinions of individuals across the country, we must acknowledge small steps in that direction and build on them. We must move forward in a way that starts to break down many of the partisan walls that have emerged in the House.

At times I can be as much of a partisan as anyone else. At the same time, for the good of the country it is time to start breaking down walls and building consensus on important issues. We need to expand our framework into something bigger and better so we can address issues that encompass the entire country.

We have focused on marine conservation areas today. I hope this becomes a model for us to move forward and consult even more in the development of legislation.

While the bill is not perfect and does not contain all the safeguards we would like in terms of consultation, we are generally supportive of the idea of marine conservation areas. For that reason we in my party will be supporting Bill C-10.

[Clifford Lincoln, Liberal, Lac-Saint-Louis, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I commend my colleague from Dewdney--Alouette who has been extremely constructive during the committee work and has brought in suggestions which have resulted in important amendments to the bill. Does the member believe the bill fulfills what he and all of us have been trying to achieve? I ask the question based on the whole context of the bill rather than any particular section of it.

Clause 5 of the bill states that the federal government must have completely clear title before it moves. That is a distinct and categorical clause. When provinces are involved that have title the federal government is bound to consult.

At the hon. member's suggestion we have improved the consultation clause so it gives no leeway to the minister. The minister must consult. Any proposed marine conservation area would be subject to consultation. However the Minister of Fisheries and Oceans has a right of agreement which is in effect a power of veto over the bill.

Any proposed marine conservation area would have to come to the House of Commons to be referred to the committees of the House. We would also have advisory boards.

More important, as was pointed out by the officials and all the members, precedents would weigh heavily. Every time there is a dispute between a province and the federal government in regard to resources, as with the Saguenay and Gwaii Haanas marine parks, there must be an agreement between the province and the federal government. All things considered and taking all these provisions together, does the member not--

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bélair)]

The hon. member for Dewdney--Alouette.

[Grant McNally, Canadian Alliance, Dewdney—Alouette, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I commend my colleague from Lac-Saint-Louis for the good work he does as chair of the heritage committee. He is fair and balanced and tries to encourage positive debate.

I agree with him that changes were made because of the interventions not only of myself but of other members. I acknowledged that earlier in my speech and I commend the government for it.

As I stated in committee, if we lay these things out clearly in the bill to allay the fears of individuals we will have done a good thing. I think we have moved in that area.

The nub of the issue now rests in the area of something we can never legislate: trust. We trust Bill C-10 will be implemented in the spirit in which we worked as a committee and that the assurances we receive will guide the direction of the bill. We will be able to tell whether we have been successful when we measure how the minister has implemented these notions and ideas.

I am somewhat hopeful this can be done in the consultative way my colleague described and include the coastal areas. I hope these ideas will not be unilaterally imposed on anyone because of the improvements we have made to the bill.

[Philip Mayfield, Canadian Alliance, Cariboo—Chilcotin, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I am a bit surprised at the hon. member's support for the bill, considering that he comes from Dewdney--Alouette, which was one of the communities that was with the UBCM and was denied a consultation. I am also surprised at his great trust of the government.

I have heard the government characterized as a 600 pound gorilla that sits where it wants. If it is confused, does not know where it is going and does not know what it wants, it is still a 600 pound gorilla that sits where it wants.

If there was such a thirst and hunger for consultation, why was the consultation not allowed before the bill was introduced for third reading? On what does the hon. member base this confidence in the government? Would the government pay attention to those groups being consulted if it had a different thing in mind?

A case in point is the fisheries. This morning the parliamentary secretary mentioned specifically that this would add increased protection to the fishing grounds. Fisheries have been protected just about to death. It there is any more protection we will not have any fish left.

Would the hon. member talk about his trust in the consultation process and how more protection would better help our fisheries and communities on the west coast which are being decimated?

[Grant McNally, Canadian Alliance, Dewdney—Alouette, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I appreciate my colleague's question. I mentioned in my speech that it was qualified support in terms of the trust factor, but we need to start somewhere.

The fact that we were able to change the bill in committee and that the government acted on some amendments brought forward by our colleague from Skeena give me rise to believe that is the intent.

As I said earlier to my colleague from Lac-Saint-Louis, the nub of the issue will be in the implementation of the process. There are enough safeguards in the bill to ensure that a local community or province does not get a marine conservation area if it does not want one. We had an example in Bonavista, off the coast of Newfoundland, where that was the case.

While the minister of energy and resources for British Columbia, Richard Neufeld, had initial reservations about the bill, he is now supportive of it because of assurances he received from the Minister of Canadian Heritage.

Lots of consultations went on before I got to the committee. I was involved in some of them. I am not sure about which ones were shut down before I got there, but we need to start somewhere. In many ways this is qualified support. The idea of a marine conservation area is a good one. We need to find a way to balance all the needs and issues my colleague has brought forth.

[Diane Bourgeois, Bloc, Terrebonne—Blainville, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I wonder whether the Progressive Conservative/Democratic Representative Coalition member is naive or whether he honestly believes in harmonious relations between the federal government and the provinces in connection with this bill.

First of all, under the British North America Act, each provincial legislature has exclusive jurisdiction over conservation and management of natural resources. How then can the member sit by while the federal government takes away any power, however small, from his own province of residence?

Second, this bill involves a number of departments, namely Fisheries and Oceans, Parks Canada, which reports through Canadian Heritage, and Environment Canada. Does he not think that the bill could result in duplication, in an increased paperburden for public servants?

Finally, he spoke about consultation and progress. This bill called for considerable progress. Does he not think that progress also means being able to respect the jurisdiction of the provinces?

[Grant McNally, Canadian Alliance, Dewdney—Alouette, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I will try to get as many responses in as I can. The prime concern of the Bloc and all members is the issue of provincial and federal jurisdiction. If a marine conservation area is to be put into an area of provincial jurisdiction and the province does not want that to happen, according to the bill it will not happen. It is a non-starter. It will not even get initiated.

There has to be provincial support if it is in an area of provincial jurisdiction. If it is in an area of federal jurisdiction, because of the amendments we made the government must also engage in the same consultative process. This was not the case prior to the changes being made. It may have been but it is more clearly laid out now.

[Paul Bonwick, Liberal, Simcoe—Grey, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I will be splitting my time with my esteemed colleague from Bras d'Or--Cape Breton, a colleague both in the House and on the heritage committee. Every once in a while in parliamentary committees we get involved in a piece of legislation which creates an incredible sense of pride, legislation that is not for the benefit of this generation, not for the benefit of Canadians from coast to coast to coast today, but for generations to come. This is a time when parliamentarians will make a difference. This act allows us to do so.

Through Parks Canada the Government of Canada has taken a leading role in the creation of national marine conservation areas. I commend the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Canadian Heritage for the incredible role she played over the last number of years in dealing with this in its various forms. I congratulate the minister, the secretary of state, and most certainly the chairperson of the committee.

I have sat on numerous committees in a full time capacity and have filled in as well. I do not think I have witnessed one that has the collective, co-operative and collegial approach offered by the Standing Committee on Canadian Heritage, save and except a few which I will get to in a minute. I thank the hon. member who spoke just before me for articulating in a non-partisan fashion what the act would actually accomplish.

I would like to set the record straight by identifying some of the important things the bill would accomplish. I would then like to lead into some of the responses that were made by some opposition party members. Some of those members participated fully in committee over the three-plus years that we were dealing with this issue, and those that did not took a very partisan approach. Sadly enough that did not surprise us on this side, or for that matter Canadians at large.

The overriding theme of the national marine conservation areas bill is very simple. It is to ensure the protection of Canada's marine environment for the appreciation and enjoyment of Canada and the world. Who could argue with that? I suggest no one with a balanced approach and opinion. Sometimes we have to deal with those who are on the extreme left or right. I will address some of their comments in the not too distant future.

There is an urgent need for this legislation, contrary to some of the views that were expressed in the House. I sat on the Canadian heritage committee for the past four years and for three years now we have been in one form or another discussing this bill. We heard from countless dozens of witnesses. We sent out hundreds of letters. We had meetings on our own as individual members of parliament. We heard from the bureaucracy and from the minister.

We had opportunities for all opposition parties to become fully engaged if they wished and for frank discussions on reasonable amendments. There were some reasonable amendments put forward in a very non-partisan fashion and some absolutely ridiculous ones.

However at the end of the day we are trying to ensure that Canada offers Canadians and people of the world a sustainable, ecological and friendly environment within our marine shores and areas not for this generation but for generations to come. I truly believe this act does exactly that.

I will address some of the comments made by the hon. member from the Bloc. The Bloc had a primary concern over the veto power of the province. Surprise, surprise, surprise.

The Bloc wanted veto power for the province regardless of whether the province even owned property or had a specific interest in the suggested area. What I would suggest, which is certainly no secret to Quebecers or to Canadians, is that the Bloc is asking the Government of Canada to put the powers that are entrusted to us into the parti Quebecois, which is totally unacceptable. Other than that, having the Bloc members at the table was a very useful exercise. They agreed with many things, but not with that one issue, veto power for the province, which again certainly comes as no surprise whatsoever.

I listened somewhat sadly to my hon. colleague from the NDP express his displeasure or disappointment with the act and talk about the disproportionate amount of time that the New Democratic Party caucus, as well as the hon. member for Windsor--St. Clair, had spent at committee. Rather than chew up a whole lot of time on that particular issue, I might suggest that the Canadian public access the Internet and check the attendance records at committee, because unless I am shortsighted--

[Pat Martin, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order. It is my understanding that in the House of Commons it is unparliamentary to point out a person's attendance, or lack thereof, either in the House, at committee or anywhere else. I would ask the Speaker to intervene.

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bélair)]

The hon. member for Winnipeg Centre has made his point. I would remind the hon. member for Simcoe--Grey not to allude to the presence or absence of members in committees or in the House.

[Paul Bonwick, Liberal, Simcoe—Grey, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I will clarify my point. I thought I had made it quite clear but obviously the hon. member from the New Democratic Party is somewhat sensitive to the issue. I simply suggested that Canadians check the attendance records. I did not say whether there was good or bad. I apologize if he was suggesting that I was inferring that the NDP was not attending on a regular basis.

They talked about the disproportionate amount of time and the lack of concern for the environment. It was quite interesting when they were making suggestions that we were not listening to environmental groups. Nothing could be further from the truth.

We have, on the other hand, the Alliance Party suggesting that we are catering to the environmental groups. Somewhere in between what we have is what Canadians expect, a balanced approach with the number one priority being these marine conservation areas. That is exactly what has taken place.

I would like to speak more to the NDP's position on this particular act but sadly enough it does not warrant a great deal of expression on my part.

Last, in many ways, I would like to address the Alliance Party. I sat here and listened to the member for Skeena, a new member to the committee, address his opinions as to the history of the bill, the act we are dealing with right now. I can appreciate that as a new member perhaps he is not fully familiar with the history of this particular act and what has actually gone on with it. He made reference to the fact that the Liberals were trying to rush this through as quickly as possible. Well if that is true, I would hate to see if we took our time on something. The process took three years. We began the process in June 1998.

When we had opportunities to speak to the minister and challenge her on issues with regard to the establishment of marine conservation areas, the Alliance Party talked about guns and more guns. It wanted park rangers to have guns. We are talking about marine conservation. This is the kind of commitment that the Alliance Party showed to the creation of a marine conservation act. I would suggest that it is a terribly sad thing for Canadians, and certainly the ones who supported that party, to see it carrying on in that fashion.

In conclusion I want to state that this is a bill for which parliament and Canada can be proud. We will be recognized as leaders with respect to establishing national marine parks for decades to come.

On that note I want to thank almost all the committee members.

[Philip Mayfield, Canadian Alliance, Cariboo—Chilcotin, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I was interested to hear the member say that he has been on the committee for four years discussing the legislation for the past three years, yet it would seem that in all those years of discussion there was not been time for meaningful consultation with so many people.

The Union of British Columbia Municipalities represents every incorporated community in British Columbia and has representations there and yet it is not in agreement with the legislation and its consultations have not been satisfactory.

If there are that many communities, not individuals but communities, that are frustrated at the lack of consultation, what did the committee discuss if it was not discussing the legislation with those communities that it would most affect, the communities that have been devastated by the fisheries, the forestry and the policies of the government looking after the environment and the conservation but not the people?