Debates of Nov. 8th, 2001

Criminal Code

[The Deputy Speaker]

The time provided for the consideration of private members' business has now expired and the order is dropped to the bottom of the order of precedence on the order paper.

A motion to adjourn the House under Standing Order 38 deemed to have been moved.

[Garry Breitkreuz, Canadian Alliance, Yorkton—Melville, SK]

Mr. Speaker, in the House on June 4 the Minister of Justice failed to answer my question about the four amnesties she had declared with respect to the 1995 banning of thousands of short barrelled .25 calibre and .22 calibre handguns, all legally owned and registered, I should remind the House.

A little background information is necessary to understand this issue and that the passing of these amnesties is actually contrary to the government's stated objectives of its firearms program.

On April 12, 1994, the then justice minister was quoted in a number of newspapers across the country. He said:

I came to Ottawa in November of last year with a firm belief that the only people in this country who should have guns are police officers and soldiers--

Six months later, he had changed his public tune but not his personal beliefs. In 1995 he used time allocation to ram his draconian bill through parliament requiring the licensing of all law-abiding firearms owners, the registration of all legally owned guns and the banning of 555,000 legal owned, properly registered handguns. The justice minister offered no statistical evidence to support the ban. In fact the statistical evidence showed that these registered handguns were no threat to public safety while they were in the hands of their registered owners.

To justify his decision to ban and eventually confiscate legally owned private property without any compensation, the justice minister simply declared these registered handguns as scary Saturday night specials.

Rather than rely on any statistical evidence, on February 16, 1995, the justice minister made his emotional argument in this House. Again I will quote:

These handguns are by their design and characteristics suitable for concealment, inexpensive to buy, easy to trade in the underground and not appropriate for target shooting because of their lack of accuracy.

The justice minister's lack of candor was duly noted by tens of thousands of front line police officers and RCMP who were still carrying the four inch barrelled .38 calibre specials that were soon to become prohibited with the passage of Bill C-68. In the legislation the justice minister tried to ban the sale of these registered handguns from the day he introduced the bill on February 14, 1995. He said that anyone buying a short barrelled .25 calibre or .32 calibre handgun after that date would have it seized by the police without compensation.

This move telegraphed the government's true intentions about what registration really means. People should register their guns and some day the government will declare them dangerous and then it will confiscate them without compensation, just like it did with the Saturday night specials people registered. Remember?

Now every responsible firearms owner remember. The justice minister ordered his bureaucrats to set the first deadline for confiscating thousands of legally owned firearms. We must remember that these are properly registered short barrelled handguns from dealers' inventories and from individuals cleared by the police to buy these firearms.

As every deadline approached, the government lost its courage and passed an amnesty. It has had four amnesties to date. With every amnesty passed by the government it is admitting that these so-called Saturday night specials are not dangerous at all when in the hands of a person licensed by the government and approved by the police to own them.

Even the 555,000 legally owned registered handguns banned in 1995 were left in the hands of their law-abiding owners through a grandfathering clause, not to be confiscated until the current owner dies. Grandfathering proved that once again the government did not consider these handguns dangerous at all when safely in the hands of their law-abiding owners.

The hypocrisy of all this is disgusting and that is why I asked the justice minister, instead of proclaiming amnesty after amnesty, why she does not admit that the government was wrong to ban these registered firearms in the first place.

[Lynn Myers, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to the Solicitor General of Canada]

Mr. Speaker, I am very proud of the fact that our government continues to listen to the concerns of firearm dealers and owners. They have important points to make and we are very attuned to what they are saying. That is why an amnesty is currently in place for prohibited handguns and unregistered restricted firearms until December 31, 2001.

The amnesty allows individuals who purchased prohibited, that is short barrelled .25 calibre or .32 calibre, handguns after the intended prohibition was announced in February 1995, and dealers who were left with inventory, to take appropriate action as required. The amnesty also protects individuals who may have come into possession of an unregistered restricted firearm, often through an estate, allowing them the opportunity to either register or dispose of it without fear or repercussion.

Responding to concerns from the public and the policing community, the government announced the prohibition of these handguns in February 1995. Incidentally, the police were at the justice committee last night and both the chiefs of police and the Canadian Association of Police again reaffirmed their strong views that this was appropriate and good legislation, and I think the record should reflect that.

However, all individuals who had registered or who had applied to register a prohibited handgun at that time were grandfathered and can continue to use their firearm with the appropriate authorization.

While the prohibition of these easily concealed firearms is in the interest of public safety and security, the government also recognizes the difficult situation of businesses that were caught with large inventories of short barrelled .25 calibre or .32 calibre handguns on February 14, 1995. This situation is addressed in amendments proposed in Bill C-15, which would grandfather these inventories, and was also addressed last year in Bill C-17.

Grandfathering these inventories would mean that businesses could dispose of the prohibited handguns by selling them to individuals who are grandfathered to possess such handguns and licensed to acquire them. This would help businesses and would not affect public safety as only licensed individuals could acquire them.

Another proposed amendment would change the grandfathering date for prohibited handguns to December 1, 1998, from February 14, 1995, so that correctly licensed individuals who lawfully acquired and registered a handgun while it was still restricted, that is between February 14, 1995 and December 1, 1998, can keep it.

Public safety would be maintained with the proposed changes because only those who were already in legal possession of these handguns since December 1, 1998, and who are properly trained and licensed to use prohibited handguns would be able to keep them. Ownership of prohibited handguns would continue to be limited to a very small number of individuals with grandfathered privileges.

Given the government's resolve to address these issues through Bill C-15B, the amnesty was recently extended until the end of this year to continue to protect both dealer inventories and individuals in possession of prohibited handguns until parliament completes its consideration of Bill C-15. I think that represents the values of Canadians and the values of this parliament.

[Garry Breitkreuz, Canadian Alliance, Yorkton—Melville, SK]

Mr. Speaker, the government has its spin but let us look at the facts. The law has required handguns to be registered since 1934 yet the government has been unable to present a shred of evidence that registration of these firearms has helped prevent or solve one crime.

Last week's Statistics Canada report “Homicides in Canada 2000” shows that the government's 67 year registration of handguns project has been a complete failure. Of the 183 firearm murderers last year, 58% were committed with handguns. Since 1990 the use of handguns and firearms in homicides has doubled from 30% to 60%. Between 1997 and 2000, 69% of the handguns recovered from firearms homicides were not registered.

Let us scrap Bill C-68 and instead enlist the support of the provinces, the territories and responsible firearms owners and draft a workable gun control program. Nearly $700 million has been wasted on Bill C-68.

[Lynn Myers, Liberal, Waterloo—Wellington, ON]

Mr. Speaker, if we look at the security measures that are in place and the safety for communities, small towns, villages, cities and rural areas across Canada, it is implicit and inherent that our society is much safer as a result of gun control. This is not about confiscating guns. I resent the implication and the mythology that is portrayed by using that statement because it is incorrect. It is an urban and a rural myth.

What this is about is carving out values for Canada, values that are dependent on the safety and security for each and every one of us, and especially for young people, and about making sure our communities are safe and secure. I am not alone in saying this. As I said previously, the police association and the chiefs of police are unanimous in saying that this is a wise move. This is what Canada is all about.

[Greg Thompson, Progressive Conservative, New Brunswick Southwest, NB]

Mr. Speaker, I am on my feet tonight to question the response I received to a question I put to the Minister of Health on October 23. The question had to do with the minister approving the use of the drug Cipro. When he did that he broke Canadian drug patent law, and that is not a good thing to do. The drug patent law protects the ability of drug companies to research and develop drugs and it was wrong for him to do that.

One of the points I want to make in this presentation is the very ad hoc approach that the government has taken to terrorism. It is indicative of the Prime Minister's laissez-faire approach to government.

One of the disappointments for me and I think many other Canadians was when the Prime Minister formed his war cabinet and left out the Minister of Health. Given the abilities of the health minister, his intellect would surpass most of his fellow cabinet ministers. I am not questioning his ability, but the fact that the Prime Minister left him out of that war cabinet left a lot of us shaking our heads in wonder. It was a case of the minister attempting to play catch-up on terrorism without being fully consulted by the Prime Minister or indeed his cabinet colleagues on the approach that he should take in terms of coming up with a drug to combat anthrax.

It is a bigger problem than the fact that he did order the drug and he did break patent law. There is not much research going on in the antibiotic field. It is not a lucrative field in health science and drug companies recognize that. When we break a patent protection law we are discouraging companies from investing in research. They have to be protected and that is the bigger problem when a minister knowingly does that because he did have alternatives.

There are a number of drugs in addition to Cipro that could have been used that were not or were not ordered by the Government of Canada. Hopefully they will never have to be used. He could have applied to have the patent protection law lifted if indeed it was an emergency. He did not do that either.

[An hon. member]

He broke the law.

[Greg Thompson, Progressive Conservative, New Brunswick Southwest, NB]

As my justice critic points out, the long and the short of it is that he broke the law.

His own industry minister said that he did not break the law intentionally. None of us said that he did, but again it is that unco-ordinated ad hoc approach that we have seen on the government side of the House since September 11. We were saddened by that approach and we are hoping the government has learned a lesson by having made that mistake.

[Jeannot Castonguay, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Health]

Mr. Speaker, I will set the record straight. First, the minister has said before, and I will reiterate it for him. He makes no apology for the actions of his officials. We support the officials of Health Canada for the actions they took in ensuring appropriate levels of antibiotics would be available for Canadians to protect them in case of a biological attack involving anthrax.

The affidavits of officials at Health Canada are within the public domain. They show quite clearly that Bayer was contacted not once, but twice, to supply the national emergency stockpile system with the antibiotic Cipro. But Bayer could not supply the Cipro.

I ask but one question. And I ask honourable members to listen carefully. If Bayer could provide enough of the antibiotic to ensure the health security of Canadians, why would Health Canada officials have to look elsewhere to secure the supply? Why? Because, the only logical answer is that Bayer said that they could not supply the Cipro. If Bayer could supply this antibiotic, Health Canada would not have had to seek a source of the antibiotic Cipro elsewhere.

Health Canada officials made a mistake in how they tried to secure another source of drugs. That mistake has been acknowledged and corrected. But they made the mistake in an honest effort to protect the health of Canadians and, at the end of the day, Canadians are protected.

It is Health Canada's responsibility to guarantee the security of the citizens of Canada by protecting the health of all Canadians. It is Health Canada's responsibility to ensure that sufficient quantities of health and social service supplies are available for Canadians in times of emergencies. Health Canada secured a supply of antibiotics for Canadians on Canadian soil.

We have now what we have always been after. A secure supply of drugs to protect the health of Canadians. This government will continue to protect the health and safety of Canadians and we will continue to do it aggressively.

The agreement reached to purchase drugs will not cost the taxpayer a single penny more.

Furthermore, after the United States government forced Bayer to provide the drug at a cheaper price, the Minister of Health took similar action. I am sure all members will be pleased to learn that, as a result of the minister's actions, Bayer has offered the same deal to Canada.

I also want to quickly review some of the other drugs Health Canada is stockpiling. The national emergency stockpile system is stockpiling the following drugs that are usually effective in against a variety of organisms: Ciprofloxacin, Doxycycline—including Vibramycin—Amoxicillin, Tetracycline and Penicillin. The target number is 100,000 Canadians.

These drugs are recommended as standard treatments for this infection by leading health authorities, including the U.S. Centres for Disease Control, NATO and the U.S. Army Medical Research Institute of Infectious Diseases.

Instead of impugning the integrity of the Minister of Health and of public servants who are acting in good faith to protect Canadians, the opposition parties in the House of Commons should be standing with the Minister of Health and applauding those public servants for their dedication to ensuring that the health security of Canadians is protected in a time of crisis.

[Greg Thompson, Progressive Conservative, New Brunswick Southwest, NB]

Mr. Speaker, one thing I never did is question the integrity of the minister. I never would because I believe that he would operate in the best interests of Canadians, but he did make a mistake. That is the point I am making.

The bigger question is protection for the drug companies that actually invest in creating or developing those drugs, lifesaving drugs that we, our families, friends and this nation need. If patent law is broken it gives those companies no incentive to reinvest in new drugs.

There is one point I want to make before I sit down, and I will quote from Business Week magazine of November 5, which gives an example of how some of these bugs or bacteria can evolve and how difficult they are to treat.

In other words, we have to reward these companies. The economics of it are important. We cannot violate the economics of research. Business Week states:

Indeed, antibiotic resistance is one of the world's most pressing public-health problems.

The doctor would know this. The statement continues:

A single case of so-called multidrug-resistant tuberculosis costs more than $250,000 to cure--and the deadly germs are on the rise in many countries. Up to 30% of bacteria that cause ear infections and pneumonia in the U.S. can fight off standard antibiotics.

That is the point we are trying to make, that we have to encourage the drug companies to invest, that we must reward discovery and that when we have a minister breaking Canadian patent law, it is wrong. We do not want it to happen again.

[Jeannot Castonguay, Liberal, Madawaska—Restigouche, NB]

Mr. Speaker, under normal circumstances, things are done in the usual way. But because of the crisis that we have been going through since September 11, there were important things that had to be done.

Since Bayer could not guarantee that it could supply the drugs we needed to protect the health of Canadians, it was important for us to have access to those drugs. That is what we did, that is what the Minister of Health did, and his officials worked very hard to make sure we had access to those drugs.

A mistake was made, and we admitted it again and again. Now we have all the drugs we need. We are ready to respond to this type of emergency and we are very proud of our officials.

[The Deputy Speaker]

The motion to adjourn the House is now deemed to have been adopted. Accordingly, this House stands adjourned until tomorrow at 10 a.m., pursuant to Standing Order 24(1).

(The House adjourned at 6.51 p.m.)