Debates of Dec. 11th, 2001

The Budget

[John Bryden, Liberal, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Aldershot, ON]

Mr. Speaker, unless I am completely wrong, I always understood housing and social services to be constitutionally entirely a provincial responsibility. In fact, the provinces have retreated on funding in these areas.

In this budget, at a time of recession, we see $600 million committed by the federal government to low income housing. Surely the member will agree that this is something that the federal government is not obligated to do. It is something that is very fine that it is doing. Surely her anger about social housing should be directed at the provinces, not at the federal government.

[Libby Davies, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Mr. Speaker, the member says that he could be wrong, and indeed he is. Clearly, the record shows that the reason we have a retreat from the provinces in the provision of social housing, for example in Ontario which has a terrible record on housing, is because the federal government started the whole retreat back in 1993.

In fact, the finance minister, who was previously the chair of the Liberal task force on housing, issued a report to the Conservative government of the day pointing out that it was reprehensible in a society as wealthy as Canada that we did not have an adequate national housing program. So what did he do when he became the finance minister? He axed the whole program. That was his solution.

Let us get the facts correct and realize that the reason that we have homelessness today is not because of some individual failing among Canadians. It is a failure of public policies that began in this place with a Liberal government.

[Peter MacKay, Progressive Conservative, Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough, NS]

Mr. Speaker, I commend my colleague from British Columbia on her speech in the House. She has pointed out yet another Olympian style backflip that was performed by members of the government on any number of issues, including the GST. I note that this is the seventh consecutive budget where the government has failed to do good on a promise to repeal the GST.

More to the point, her commentary dealt with the issue of education as well. The hon. member opposite who is chortling would point to that as a provincial jurisdiction, as well. However surely there is ample evidence in the House of students, pages who are here struggling under student debt, who will leave their institution of higher learning with the equivalent of a mortgage and no house to go to. This again is an issue that has been drastically underfunded and ignored by successive budgets that we have seen in this place.

The issue with respect to the coast guard has also been pointed out by members of the House. The other issue is agriculture, which was also ignored.

Finally, I want to put a question to the member just so the record is clear with respect to her party and her leader's position with respect to military funding. This is an issue where many analysts, members of the opposition and members of the government have commented that this budget does not come up to par.

The auditor general called for a $1.3 billion injection of cash to bring our military back to competitiveness and to procurement readiness. We know the helicopter issue is still being kicked around like a political football to avoid buying the same helicopters that were cancelled.

Is it now the NDP's position that we should be following the advice of the auditor general and increasing military spending over the next number of years so that our armed forces can keep their NATO and UN commitments?

[Libby Davies, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Mr. Speaker, the hon. member has raised some very good issues. I would agree that reality is that most students graduate into poverty and end up going through life with a huge student debt that becomes more and more difficult to pay off.

However I will answer his question on military spending. He has probably heard from members of the New Democratic Party that we believe very strongly that it is important to support our Canadian armed forces, particularly their equipment needs and the conditions under which they operate and live. I know my colleague who is our critic in that area has been very clear about that.

I want to emphasize that while we support that, we are also very aware of the fact that there are millions of other Canadians who will go without because of the emphasis the government has placed on law enforcement and law enforcement agencies, on funding to CSIS and on other security measures. This is taking away from Canadians who are most at risk.

[Dick Proctor, NDP, Palliser, SK]

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to take part in the 2001 budget debate. I probably should be talking about the many deficiencies in the budget, but that has been amply demonstrated by a number of opposition members, especially the member for Halifax, the member for Regina--Qu'Appelle and my colleague from Vancouver East.

I would like to spend my few minutes talking about something that has not been dealt with a lot in the debate and that is what I perceive to be the Americanization of not only the country but the budget.

Many Liberal members opposite have said that the budget has been reassuring to Canadians. I submit that if that has been the case, it has been only accidental. This budget had one purpose and one purpose only and that was to satisfy the Bush administration in Washington. It is sad and pathetic but I am not surprised.

What did surprise me a little was to read in the Globe and Mail today that the minister told reporters he had briefed his U.S. counterpart, treasury secretary Paul O'Neill, on the budget and had received a thumbs up. Some of us thought that there was secrecy in budgets and that we did not release them before they were released here. Apparently not because Washington was called to ensure that everything was okay with Mr. O'Neill, Mr. Bush and the rest before the government went any further. Does anyone believe that Tom Ridge, the home security minister in the United States, would have been here today if it had not been a very positive budget from Washington's viewpoint?

The Liberals said that they went coast to coast and listened clearly to what Canadians said. They may have listened to Canadians, but the only thing they were really listening to were the signals from Washington. If this was not a budget that was written by the Bush administration, it was certainly a budget that was written for the Bush administration.

Before yesterday we were told in the House repeatedly that the terrorists did not come through Canada to get to the United States three months ago today. In fact John Ashcroft at one point was forced to reverse his remarks and say that. I believe that, but after the pathetic budget, which was delivered yesterday, and the pandering that has gone on here to the Americans, I am beginning to have second thoughts.

We have heard all fall from ministers like the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration and the Minister of Transport that all was well and they could carry out their duties and responsibilities with the legislation and the resources available to them. I would like to read into the record a couple of those references.

On October 30 the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration, while talking about Bill C-11, said:

It gives us the ability to streamline our procedures, so that those who are in genuine need of our protection will be welcomed in Canada more quickly and those who are not in need of protection will be able to be removed more quickly.

On October 19 she referred to Mr. Zaccardelli, the commissioner of the RCMP. She said:

Yesterday the commissioner said that he totally disagrees with the notion that we are a safe haven. He said we should eliminate that word from our vocabulary...

Whether we have eliminated that word from our vocabulary or not and whether the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration felt she needed more resources, she got it yesterday. She got $1 billion to ward off illegal immigrants, something she said was well in hand prior to yesterday's budget. CSIS got $334 million dollars, the largest increase in the history of the intelligence security. It is being described in the media as a huge Christmas present.

Money was allocated for overseas immigration officers and $567 million was allocated for the RCMP. What do we receive for this money? When we go out on Parliament Hill we have these ludicrous security checks, costing millions of dollars and benefiting this country not one drop.

It is even worse when we look back at what the Minister of Transport had to say on the subject of air marshals. I would like to go through this. On the first day back in the House on September 17, the Minister of Transport said:

To deploy armed air marshals on flights is a radical suggestion. It poses severe logistical and financial implications and it is not the direction in which we are moving. We are committed to providing enhanced security on the ground, so we will not need air marshals.

It gets better. Ten days later, on September 26, the Minister of Transport said:

The United States is taking a certain measure of action. Having armed personnel on planes, whether they are pilots or air marshals, is not a road we will go down.

Finally, on October 5, he said:

We want to ensure that security measures are in place at airports to prevent the need for putting armed personnel on planes which in itself creates some degree of danger and is not endorsed, certainly not at this point, by the pilot unions in this country. In fact, Mr. Bush has not even agreed to the arming of cockpit personnel on planes.

Mr. Bush has now agreed to the arming of cockpit personnel on planes and so have we. Never mind what the Minister of Transport said on those three occasions. He is getting armed marshals whether or not he wants them. He is getting $2.2 billion over five years being paid for by the travelling public.

[An hon. member]

He got his marching orders.

[Dick Proctor, NDP, Palliser, SK]

He got his marching orders.

The minister was talking today about how cockpit doors are now locked. I hope he gets more respect from his departmental officials than he does from pilots and air flight attendants.

As recently as yesterday while I was travelling here the cockpit door was wide open for a considerable part of the flight. The crew was relaxed and chatting merrily. The passengers were not particularly nervous or upset. They were going about their daily business. The notion of cockpit doors being locked and guarded is very much in his imagination.

There is $7.7 billion for security to placate the giant to the south. Canadians know the reason why. The government and its predecessor have plunged headlong into a free trade agreement with the Americans. We now have something in the neighbourhood of 85% of our exports heading south. If we do not play ball, it is very simple: there is a chill at the border.

The member for Chatham--Kent Essex did not say it that way but that is the essence of his message. We are now into just in time delivery. If we do not play ball, the perishable goods at the border will spoil.

We were told when we were young people not to put all our eggs in one basket. We were cautioned against it by parents and others. The chickens have come to roost because that is where we are at today.

The government likes to pretend that it is standing up for Canada. In reality it has rolled over. It does not do anything that could possibly be construed as offending our dear friends to the south.

The budget marks a very sad time for a middle power that once upon a time had some intestinal fortitude and was able to stand on its own two feet. We have been reduced, sadly, to a whimpering, nervous Nellie whose only concern is whether or not the Americans will like it and like us.

The $7.7 billion is a great waste of money. It will not be well spent. It is money that could and should go to help workers, to help farmers and to help people who live in abject poverty or people who live without shelter. There is no money, for instance, for things like the environment. Instead we get billions spent on very questionable, dubious expenditures that will not in the final analysis do anything at all to develop the country.

Many of my colleagues have said that there is no money for health care in the budget. I say they are wrong. I say that yesterday's budget was a designer drug. It was a muscle relaxant for Bush, Ashcroft and Ridge. That is a shame on Canada and it is especially a shame for the government over there.

[Loyola Hearn, Progressive Conservative, St. John's West, NL]

Mr. Speaker, I am concerned by the member's lack of concern about the security of the country. Having said that, I wonder what he thinks about the fact that if we fly into any airport in this country we have to go through severe scrutiny; if we drive, as he referred to, we have to line up at the border; but if we have anything from a dory to an ocean liner we can land practically anywhere in the country and nobody knows we are coming unless we call ahead for reservations.

The radar sites in many parts of our country are no longer serviced. The cutbacks to the coast guard have been so severe that they cannot service the sites unless the sites go down. As many radar sites are in remote areas, in the event of bad weather, high winds or whatever, it is sometimes days or weeks before the sites are serviced. How secure do these things make the member feel in relation to the remarks he has made?

[Dick Proctor, NDP, Palliser, SK]

Mr. Speaker, I should observe that coming from a landlocked province I do not know the situation on the coast nearly as well as my colleague from Newfoundland and Labrador does. I believe what he is saying is that approximately 85% of our coastline is unprotected and, as he correctly points out, anybody travelling on a dory could get here. We have said for many years that Canada needs to do a much better job of protecting our coastlines. There is no question about it.

There is a concern I have with regard to airport security. Passengers want to make sure that they, their luggage and fellow passengers are being screened, but after that I do not believe there is a great demand for the armed marshals we are now getting, for example, whether we want them or not.

On the member's question with regard to the coast guard and security, I take his point. I certainly concur with him, and I think our party does as well, that more needs to be done in this area.

[Peter MacKay, Progressive Conservative, Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough, NS]

Mr. Speaker, I will afford some time for my Bluenose colleague from Nova Scotia.

I am very encouraged to hear the position set out by my colleague from the NDP with respect to the lack of funding and the lack of attention given to coastal security. We have the deployment of navy ships to the gulf now and there is a lack of funding for traditional coast guard operations, including navigational equipment and person power, much of which has been privatized, with many of those responsibilities being contracted out. I know that in the county of Guysborough in particular more cuts are pending, even in light of and in the face of the existing increased security threat. As my colleague from Newfoundland and Labrador suggested, our coastal borders and our security on the water are virtually undefended at this time.

My question to the hon. member is with regard to the growing surplus in the EI fund. The NDP in particular has been very quick to point out that this money has been absconded with and used for a cause for which it was never intended. It is not even available to many workers. With pending layoffs at Trenton Steel fabrication in Pictou county, this is of great concern. What sorts of parameters should be put on the use of that money in terms of how it is available to workers?

[Dick Proctor, NDP, Palliser, SK]

Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the question from the member for Pictou--Antigonish--Guysborough. On the matter of the employment insurance fund, I take the position, and I think my party does as well, that this is not money that belongs to the treasury, that should go into general revenue. After all, it is money that has been contributed by employers and employees and it should be there for their protection. If times are good and unemployment levels are low, then payroll taxes should be reduced. When things are not so good, they go up.

However, as the member said, what is happening at the moment is that the government has absconded with about $40 billion and counting from the employment insurance fund.

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Musquodoboit Valley—Eastern Shore, NS]

Mr. Speaker, my colleague focused his remarks on other aspects, but I would like to give him the opportunity, seeing as how he comes from the great province of Saskatchewan, to remark on why and how the government, in this budget, after 22 months of waiting, completely ignored the concerns and needs of farm families in our country.

[Dick Proctor, NDP, Palliser, SK]

Mr. Speaker, it defies description. Over the next period of years we will negotiate an agreement in Qatar. That is the message.

In the meantime, the high subsidies in the United States and Europe continue, especially for grains and oilseeds. Our farmers simply cannot compete, yet the government says there is no alternative and they will be required to carry on business as usual for most of the next decade. It will not happen. Farmers will not be around in a decade.

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bélair)]

I regret to inform the hon. member for Egmont that government orders are finished for today. He will be first on the list tomorrow.

A motion to adjourn the House under Standing Order 38 deemed to have been moved.

[Philip Mayfield, Canadian Alliance, Cariboo—Chilcotin, BC]

Mr. Speaker, my question this evening follows my question on November 30 to the government asking it to commit to fighting the infestation of mountain pine beetle that is devastating the pine forests in central British Columbia.

This threat is of deep concern to all citizens of northern and central British Columbia and, as a result, representations on this have been made by the members for Prince George--Peace River and Prince George--Bulkley Valley as well as myself.

This infestation may be the largest epidemic of its kind in Canadian history. The pine beetle has infested 5.7 million hectares of working forest, which is about twice the size of Vancouver Island. The pine beetle and U.S. softwood lumber duties are threatening to kill thousands of jobs and entire communities in B.C.'s interior. The government's lack of response to the provincial plan to eradicate the beetles indicates once again that the Liberals do not care about British Columbia. This is not an Ontario ice storm and it is not a Quebec flood, but the government will care when billions of dollars of tax revenue from B.C. stop flowing to Ottawa.

The British Columbia government needs about $60 million a year over 10 years to fight this enormous problem of the pine beetle. Everyone in British Columbia is waiting with great impatience for the reply from the foot dragging Liberal Minister of Natural Resources and the senior Liberal cabinet minister for B.C., who have been thoroughly briefed on this issue.

In his initial response to me on November 30, the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Natural Resources tried to have us believe that the only responsibility of the Government of Canada in fighting the mountain pine beetle infestation is to deliver the science. However, the government has a clear responsibility for infested federal lands, like the Riske Creek military reserve. From this federal land those beetles are spilling out into provincial forests and nothing is being done to control them.

Does the government recognize its obligation to fight the infestation on its own lands? I hope the response from the government this evening addresses that responsibility.

I noted in the auditor general's report that the Department of National Defence contributed $2 million to an urban park. Why is there no money to be put into this military reserve where the federal government has a clear responsibility to an urgent need?

The government's response to other questions concerning the issue is “Oh, well, we're working with the province”. That is an obfuscation and an attempt to sidestep the matter.

The B.C. government has a plan to fight the beetle infestation. It needs a commitment from this government, but there was nothing about it in last night's budget. The $60 million of new money budgeted to the CBC would be all that is needed this year from the federal government to assist B.C.

Worst of all, the most recent reply from the government of which I am aware is the reply to the hon. member for Prince George--Peace River who wrote to the Minister of Natural Resources on November 6. He received a response that again did not answer this question: What resources will the government commit to eradicate the pine beetle epidemic in B.C.'s pine forests? We are talking also about federal crown lands. The government is not even prepared to deal with the problem on the land it controls.

Long ago, ministers of the crown in British Columbia approached me to help get the government's attention on the issue. This is not a new problem. As I said earlier, years ago I pressed the government to deal with the fir bark beetle also spilling out of that same Riske Creek military reserve west of Williams Lake. Nothing, but nothing, was done then either.You should see the devastation there now, Mr. Speaker.

There are forests in British Columbia for which the government has a constitutional responsibility. These forests are being faced with a devastating infestation that is increasing the amount of damaged wood, lost income and cleanup costs for the province.

What is the commitment of the government to British Columbia to fight the mountain pine beetle infestation, first on its own federal lands and then in assisting the province of B.C. with this present economic and environmental crisis?

[John Finlay, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development]

Mr. Speaker, I am subbing for my colleague, the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Natural Resources. I am not privy to all the knowledge of my hon. friend across the aisle. However I will deliver the answer as I have it.

Forest management is under the jurisdiction of the province. In B.C., Natural Resources Canada collaborates with Parks Canada, the Department of National Defence and the Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development on aerial surveys to monitor mountain pine beetle outbreaks on federal lands.

The federal government has been working closely with the B.C. forest industry and with the B.C. government to address the issue of the mountain pine beetle. In its strategic action plan British Columbia is determining how to manage the mountain pine beetle infestation. The federal government will co-operate, where appropriate, on supportive research and collaborative remedial strategies for federal lands.

In his question of November 30 the hon. member made reference to Riske Creek. He also referred to it tonight. It is located on the Chilcotin military reserve of the Department of National Defence. I am sure he knows that because I would guess it is in his riding.

I must point out that the Natural Resources Canada forestry centre in Victoria has a five year memorandum of understanding with DND to provide advice and services regarding forest management on all defence properties within British Columbia, with the exception of the Chilcotin military reserve.

DND specifically excluded this property from the memorandum of understanding because it has an agreement with the B.C. ministry of forests for forest protection and timber management which has been in place since June 1992.

As early as 1995 Natural Resources Canada scientists identified the beginning of the mountain pine beetle outbreak in the central part of the province and alerted the B.C. government. Since then NRCan conducted annual beetle surveys of the Chilcotin military reserve. These surveys were used to prepare reports on the status and trends of the infestation, copies of which were provided to DND and the B.C. ministry of forests.

In the fall 2000 NRCan scientists presented workshops on the mountain pine beetle in four communities in B.C., including one in Williams Lake which is adjacent to the military reserve. Landowners and representatives from industry, the B.C. government and first nations were invited to attend. Information was provided on the biology, research and management tools available to assist in dealing with the outbreak. Options to address the infestation were discussed and made available to the participants.

The current outbreak of the mountain pine beetle did not originate from any one spot. Forest health maps from 1990 to 1996 indicate that the beetle population was on the increase throughout central B.C. regardless of jurisdiction. The present outbreak is a result of these smaller populations increasing, coalescing and then spreading.

I also point out that a map made from aerial surveys clearly indicates the centre of the outbreak is located several hundred kilometres northwest of Riske Creek.

Federal support for the mountain pine beetle epidemic has provided the research on understanding and predicting beetle outbreaks, developing tools to incorporate predictive capacity into higher level planning, understanding the impacts of a variable climate on the beetle and controlling the beetle through stand management activities.

[Philip Mayfield, Canadian Alliance, Cariboo—Chilcotin, BC]

Mr. Speaker, the facts as I understand them do not entirely square with the comments of the hon. parliamentary secretary. For example, the Department of National Defence said that it accepted responsibility for the fir bark beetle infestation when I made a representation to it shortly after I was elected in 1993. Whatever happened, I am not in a position to say, the plans that it had to deal with that infestation never took place.

What strikes me is the amazing similarities between what happened with the fir bark beetle and with the mountain pine beetle. When I speak to DND it hardly knows what is going on and it does not seem to care to find out. I have great difficulty accepting the parliamentary secretary's response.

[John Finlay, Liberal, Oxford, ON]

Mr. Speaker, the department is committed to working with other landowners to help mitigate the problem. Any formal proposal by the B.C. government for federal assistance will be considered within the context of the federal mandate. Support and expertise are already being offered, as well as the availability of funds.

It may surprise the hon. member to know that to date the department has not received any formal request for funding or for co-operative planning to solve the problem. It would be happy to hear from my hon. colleague or the B.C. ministry of forests.

[Charles Caccia, Liberal, Davenport, ON]

Mr. Speaker, last September I asked the Minister of Natural Resources why provincial and federal energy and environment ministers had not at that time reached an agreement on the ratification of the Kyoto protocol on climate change. I was told by the minister that the ministers were able to report on measures that would reach only about half of Canada's Kyoto targets.

Since then, however, important international negotiations on climate change have taken place. In early November a landmark agreement was reached by representatives of nearly 180 countries at the seventh conference of the United Nations climate change convention in Marrakesh. The net result is that the rules for implementation of the Kyoto protocol are now finalized and the protocol will come into force after 55 countries representing at least 55% of industrial countries' emissions have ratified it.

Here in Canada, the statements by the federal Minister of the Environment and Minister of Natural Resources still make ratification of the Kyoto protocol conditional on an agreement with the provinces. Federal and provincial energy and environment ministers plan to meet next year. Progress is slow given the fact that Canada signed the Kyoto agreement in December 1997. In addition, the uncertainty of the government's commitment to ratification is in contrast to recent developments in international negotiations on climate change. Secondly, in view of the high level of concern about the impacts of climate change shown by the insurance industry, ski resort operators, shipping companies that rely on sufficiently high levels of water and other Canadians, we therefore need domestic measures to achieve the Kyoto targets so that Canada is put in a position to ratify.

Soon the international community will be able to closely scrutinize Canada's domestic plan on climate change at the Rio Plus 10 meeting in Johannesburg next September. The next world summit on sustainable development will allow participants to look at and measure progress made since the 1992 Rio summit when Agenda 21 was agreed upon. Members should know that the United Nations convention on climate change was adopted in May 1992 and opened at the Rio summit for signature.

Without ratification, what will Canada say in Johannesburg? With this question in mind, I would like to ask the parliamentary secretary to assure the House and Canadians that the necessary steps are being taken to guarantee ratification of the Kyoto protocol before the Johannesburg summit and to dispel any lingering uncertainty. The security of the globe and of millions of people depend on this ratification.

[John Finlay, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development]

Mr. Speaker, I thank my esteemed colleague for his question. It is a matter with which both of us are much concerned. However I will have to ask him not to shoot the messenger as I read the response I have from Natural Resources Canada.

[Svend Robinson, NDP, Burnaby—Douglas, BC]

Speak from the heart.

[John Finlay, Liberal, Oxford, ON]

I may do that too, but probably not with my colleague from Davenport.

The government is making substantive progress on the important issue of climate change. Last month 28 projects worth $425 million were announced that would reduce annual greenhouse gas emissions by 23.7 megatonnes. We have put in place a series of emission reduction programs across a wide range of sectors aimed at achieving 65 megatonnes of annual greenhouse gas emission reductions or one-third of our Kyoto commitment.

At the September 24 meeting of energy and environment ministers in Winnipeg, all levels of government demonstrated their determination to addressing climate change and making substantive progress on the Kyoto protocol. The momentum continued when ministers met again this past October in Toronto.

The meeting in Winnipeg resulted in the release of a progress report on Canada's first national climate change business plan as well as a proposal to develop a second national climate change business plan. With the impacts of climate change now being felt in Canada, particularly in the north, the 2002 business plan will be expanded to assess regional impacts and identify adaptation needs and mitigation programs.

If we are to be successful in addressing climate change all levels of government need to work together. This is why ministers at the Winnipeg meeting considered a possible federal-provincial-territorial framework agreement. It was agreed that future discussions would be held to formalize our co-operative efforts.

In the meantime, we remain committed to working together closely on climate change through the national implementation strategy, a proven approach that emphasizes the interrelationship between national and international action within the confines of a co-ordinated strategy.

The meeting in Winnipeg also saw the renewal of our commitment to continue detailed analytical work on policy options for addressing climate change on issues such as a possible domestic emissions trading system, targeted measures, covenants with industry, impacts and adaptation, technology and competitiveness.

It was also agreed to discuss ways in which the Kyoto target might be allocated by sector or province. Discussions on all these specific matters will start no later than next May in order for Canada to consider ratification of the Kyoto protocol as early as 2002.

Ratification of the Kyoto protocol was a key area of discussion during the meeting in Winnipeg. The Minister of Natural Resources reiterated the government's commitment to a full consultation process involving Canadian industry and environmental groups as well as the Canadian public in advance of a ratification decision. Provincial and territorial ministers indicated their interest in being involved in the decision process throughout.

With regard to the recently negotiated Bonn agreement, a framework for implementing the Kyoto protocol, the provinces and territories were generally supportive of the positions taken by the Government of Canada and appreciative of the consultative process put in place to keep them informed and seek their input.

[Charles Caccia, Liberal, Davenport, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I assure the parliamentary secretary, perish the thought that I would ever shoot the messenger. I thank him for his comprehensive reply and will only say that it is an issue on which too much talk is devoted to the costs of reducing emissions and too little energy and time are applied to the benefits.

The benefits that can accrue to the economy from a more efficient and innovative use of energy are enormous. Tremendous benefits can also accrue in the long term by reducing our dependence on fossil fuels and shifting to renewable sources of energy.

In conclusion, somehow, somewhere, the federal government must give stronger leadership than it has given so far if it wants to reach the plateau necessary to ratify it earlier.

[John Finlay, Liberal, Oxford, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I concur with my colleague from Davenport. I want to see a plan. I want to see action. I want to see that commitment.

The ministers have agreed to meet in February and in May 2002 to discuss international developments, their continuing progress on addressing climate change and key analytical policy issues related to Canada's decision on ratification. I urge the department to continue in that direction.

[Svend Robinson, NDP, Burnaby—Douglas, BC]

Mr. Speaker, early one morning in November 1999 a 24 year old law student, Robbie Peterson, was brutally kicked and punched in the head and face. It happened at the corner of Regent and Brunswick streets in Fredericton, New Brunswick. He was attacked because he was gay. He was attacked from behind, thrown to the ground and kicked repeatedly. His attacker hurled anti-gay insults as he fled into the night.

Shortly after that attack I questioned the Minister of Justice in the House, asking her when she would be introducing legislation to include sexual orientation in the hate propaganda provisions of the criminal code. She replied at that time, which was December 1999, two years ago, that we would be making the necessary changes to the criminal code in the coming months.

That was two years ago. In fact it was a year and a couple of months before that in October 1998 that the provincial attorneys general, together with the federal attorney general, agreed at their annual meeting in Regina, Saskatchewan, that they would move ahead and deal with hate motivated activities in a manner consistent with the charter; in other words, to make those amendments. That was over three years ago.

Last month, almost two years to the day after Robbie Peterson was brutally attacked in Fredericton, New Brunswick, Aaron Webster was murdered in Stanley Park. Aaron Webster was a gay man. He was bludgeoned to death and he was attacked because he was gay.

Today, over three years after the Minister of Justice promised to amend the criminal code, I am appealing once again to the minister through the parliamentary secretary to do the right thing and asking why it has taken so long since the promise was made, first in October 1998 and then in December 1999.

That was the question I asked the minister just a couple of weeks ago after Aaron Webster's death. She responded that she would consult with the provincial and territorial attorneys general.

Consult she did once again and they unanimously agreed again that there must be action. I spoke personally with the attorney general of Saskatchewan, Chris Axworthy, who agreed to this. The attorney general and justice minister of Manitoba, Gord Macintosh, said:

It is pathetic that this issue got lost somewhere in Ottawa.

We do not want to see another three years go by and another killing to move this issue along.

This affects both the violence and hatred directed at gay and lesbian people and those perceived to be gay and lesbian, but it also affects the ability of the police to stop hatemongers at the border, people like Fred Phelps.

The Ottawa police said recently that if this were done against a catholic, a jew or a black person charges could be laid. If we had that legislation in place we would not have to put up with the nonsense of Fred Phelps on Monday. We could have told him that if he shows up and starts spreading this hate we will arrest him.

I want to call on the government to act and to act now to finally include sexual orientation in the hate propaganda sections of the criminal code. This is long overdue. No one else should be bashed or murdered simply because of the fact they are gay or lesbian in a land in which our criminal code does not prohibit the spewing of that hatred and violence.