Debates of March 19th, 2001

Supply

[Maurice Vellacott, Canadian Alliance, Saskatoon—Wanuskewin, SK]

Mr. Speaker, I have in hand a letter addressed to the hon. member, dated June 1, 1998, when he served as chair of the Standing Committee on Aboriginal Affairs and Northern Development. The letter is from the assistant deputy minister and provides information requested by another member of the standing committee. It refers to the Montana v Canada case wherein there was a reference to the co-mingling of funds, and therefore it was difficult to get full disclosure of information concerning the moneys transferred to different bands.

I wonder, as he recalls the letter, if the member was concerned about the nature of it in terms of issues of accountability, full disclosure and the divulging of how funds were used. Does he feel the motion before us today addresses the issue and that we will be resolving the dilemma created by the Montana case? Does he feel the motion before us is good in that respect and that it gets us past the blockage and obstruction of the Montana case?

[Guy St-Julien, Liberal, Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik, QC]

Mr. Speaker, as we know, there will always be new approaches.

What I said in my remarks earlier is that you come with a motion to try to talk about all the bands—

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh.

[Guy St-Julien, Liberal, Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I am sorry, I should know, after a number of years in the House of Commons, that I have to address my comments to the Chair.

For the member who has just raised a question, whether it is in the Montana case or in any other matter in Canada, with our aboriginal leaders, be it Matthew Coon Come, the chief of the Assembly of First Nations, Ted Moses, the grand chief of the James Bay Cree or Pita Aatami, of Nunavik, there will always be new approaches.

In the Montana case, some things are not hard to understand. Some things are readily comprehensible, but what is important for us is to provide funding for aboriginal governments, to improve quality of life.

I would like to say that I will steer well clear of this motion. What is important is to improve the quality of life of every aboriginal community in Canada. Please make the effort. Meet the leaders of these communities, and we will find solutions together.

[Maurice Vellacott, Canadian Alliance, Saskatoon—Wanuskewin, SK]

Mr. Speaker, I have another question for the member on a closely related matter. Would he concur that with the motion before us members of bands and the general public, if obstructed from getting access to documents, would as taxpayers have access to the financial audits? Does he think it would be good for taxpayers to be able, through access to information requests, to get an understanding of those audited financial statements?

[Guy St-Julien, Liberal, Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik, QC]

Mr. Speaker, we know things are going very well in 95% of the aboriginal communities. I will not however be voting for your motion. I am opposed to it.

[The Deputy Speaker]

I would remind hon. members to kindly direct their comments to the Chair and not directly to one another.

[Guy St-Julien, Liberal, Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik, QC]

Mr. Speaker, the member was asking me if I was in agreement with the motion. They have changed it twice today.

They introduced one and then changed it with an amendment. When I look at it I see there is no mention of the problems of our aboriginal friends in Canada. There is no mention of the problems of our Inuit friends. That is what I fault the Canadian Alliance for.

They could have gone a bit further. There is reference to public and private funds, to “the use of any public funds” being “publicly reported”. There will always be audits. Hon. members are aware that the government always has access to the books, will always be on top of things and will always know exactly what is going on in the communities.

There may be one or two examples to the contrary but at the present time things are going very well in the aboriginal communities in Quebec. What needs to be addressed above all is the quality of life, improving housing and health in order to improve the present situation in the aboriginal communities.

[Nancy Karetak-Lindell, Liberal, Nunavut, NU]

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to speak to the opposition motion regarding a financial reporting system for Canada's first nations. I want to put the whole issue into the context of how the government is working with first nations to create good governance and stronger accountability.

Across the country individual community members and the Canadian public are looking closely at first nations as they manage and deliver their own programs and services. They expect first nations governments to function in an accountable and effective way. They expect their tax dollars to be spent responsibly. The fact that most first nations manage their finances responsibly is a testament to both the determination of first nations to manage their resources well and the creation of a proper system of checks and balances.

First nations management systems are becoming increasingly important. Good governance brings certainty, stability and community well-being. Stable and effective government creates an environment conducive to economic growth. Sustainable governance structures and policies will ensure that first nations can manage economic change in an effective and responsible way.

The federal government is working with aboriginal partners to create and support more stable, transparent fiscal models and strong accountability processes which will strengthen the operations of aboriginal governments.

We know that economic development and self-sufficiency go hand in hand. It is key that we agree on a vision for the country that includes aboriginal people as active partners in our economy and that we agree to build a comprehensive plan for inclusion in Canada's economy, from infrastructure to resources to investment.

A common vision and strategic plan would open up vast new opportunities for all of us to pursue. One of the hallmarks of all of our government's policies is that economic and social success must be pursued together. We cannot lead in innovation and ideas without ensuring that we have healthy and secure citizens.

When it comes to good governance many first nations are leading by example. They are building capacity and putting into place new policies and procedures, from conflict of interest guidelines to human resources management policies that support sustainable and stable governance.

We are working on a number of initiatives to develop with the first nations sustainable governance arrangements for aboriginal people that are built on legitimacy, authority and accountability.

We are working with aboriginal people to explore financial issues at a national table on fiscal relations. This initiative could see for the first time the creation of four first nations public institutions.

First, the First Nations Finance Authority, FNFA, was created in 1995 by the Westbank first nation. Since then it has worked with an expanding circle of first nations to find ways and means by which first nations might use bonds, as do other governments, for access to longer term, more affordable financing. The circle has benefited from its partnership with an expert in the field, the B.C. municipal finance authority, which can secure bond financing at rates lower than the provinces.

The proposal would see the creation of a borrowing pool. Interested first nations may apply to be part of the borrowing pool and will need to demonstrate strong governance and financial management regimes to be accepted.

Legislation would be needed to give stability and legitimacy to the FNFA, and certainly to potential investors, that first nations have powers to borrow for these purposes. Qualifying first nations could look to increase their return on debt by 33% to 50%, which is a strong incentive for sound financial management.

The second is the First Nations Tax Commission. In 1988 the Indian Act was amended to allow interested first nations to enter the field of property taxation. Since then, 83 first nations have put tax bylaws into place and $163 million has been generated for local youth.

This change was realized through the significant efforts of former chief Manny Jules of the Kamloops first nation and members of the Indian Taxation Advisory Board, known as ITAB. Kamloops first nation has borrowed against these new long term stable revenue streams to make its breakthrough in economic development for its people.

It is now being proposed that ITAB become a tax commission. To do so, ITAB would assume powers held by the minister through a more transparent and streamlined management regime with greater taxpayer involvement.

The third is the First Nations Financial Management Board. The FMB is a new organization and its initial task would be to provide independent management assessment services required by first nations seeking entry into the FNFA borrowing pool.

Its role, however, could grow over time as it interacts and consults with first nation governments and administrators, external experts and other governments. It could evolve and build over time, much as ITAB's role has matured over past years.

The FMB would fulfil the need for a shared, sustained effort in setting standards and rethinking current accountability frameworks. Its work would complement the Aboriginal Financial Officer Association of Canada's professional development and support role.

Finally there is the First Nations Statistical Institute. As first nations operate more at arm's length with the Government of Canada, they need new statistical systems.

There are systems to support community decision making and accountability, and to relate to other levels of government. They are a prerequisite to developing new Canada-first nations transfer arrangements.

The FNSI would be partnered with, but separate from, Statistics Canada. This partnership would support an integrated national statistical system which would better meet the needs of first nations and Canada alike. It would facilitate the transfer of knowledge, experience and tools to FNSI.

These are exciting and practical developments. We expect to hear more about these in the months ahead as we seek the mandate to work toward legislation.

We have also put emphasis on capacity building. For example, almost all first nations communities completed accountability and management assessments last year, and the first ever designations were awarded for certified aboriginal financial managers.

The AFOA has made great strides in fulfilling a critical need for well-trained financial staff supported by a strong code of ethics which are fundamental to good governance.

Indian and Northern Affairs Canada is also leading a major review of its transfer payment business process by offering government online. This move would definitely improve the administration of transfer payments to first nations. The new system would be capable of handling a wide variety of first nations funding arrangements. Technology will play a major role in making this vision a reality.

There will be full automation, full electronic access to the system, online reporting and electronic access to the data and information needed to make the system work. The system will be driven by principles of transparency, disclosure and accountability. All these initiatives depend on building a new relationship and strengthening our partnership with aboriginal people.

It is through partnerships that we can most effectively pool our talents, our ideas and our resources. It is through partnerships that we can make real and lasting progress. We are addressing the issues and giving aboriginal people greater control over their own lives, and we have begun to see some positive results. The gap in living conditions between aboriginal and non-aboriginal people has narrowed. Education levels have improved. Unemployment has dropped and housing conditions and basic infrastructure from roads to water have improved.

There is no question that as we try to design this new modern relationship with aboriginal people, we must balance the past with the future and meet new economic challenges. We have our work cut out for us and it definitely will not happen overnight. However, we need to clear up some myths and misconceptions so that people understand that first nations people and the Inuit are contributing members of society and part of the broader Canadian family.

We need to demonstrate that first nations government are good governments run on sound principles and accountable to the people they represent. The measures we are developing to ensure greater accountability and good governance are a good start, and they are beginning to show real results. They recognize that all Canadians have a role to play in tackling the challenges facing aboriginal communities.

[Deepak Obhrai, Canadian Alliance, Calgary East, AB]

Mr. Speaker, it is an honour for me to rise on behalf of the constituents of Calgary East to speak on today's supply day motion sponsored by the Canadian Alliance. I thank my colleague for Nanaimo—Cowichan for his excellent work in bringing this motion forward for debate.

Perhaps it is worthwhile to restate the motion before I begin my comments. The motion states:

That the government stipulate that in all Contribution Agreements between the Federal Government and individual Indians Bands, the use of any public funds be publicly reported and audited.

When Canadians look at what happening on reserves and what is happening with our brothers and sisters from the aboriginal communities, there is a kind of sadness and puzzlement. We have a huge amount of money being transferred to assist and to uplift the living standards of our brothers and sisters from the first nations.

When we look at what has gone on over the years, when we look at what is happening and when we look at the conditions on the reserves, we have to ask what is going on. Something is not right.

I commend the speaker who just spoke before me. She is from the first nations. I commend the efforts made by the first nations in working to bring their communities on par with the rest of the Canadians. I do not think anyone in the House would dispute what she said. I would like to be on the record of saying that I agree with what she said today. That is the essence of the debate is here today.

This motion is asking that all the public moneys that are transferred to the first nation bands be accounted for and be publicly reported and audited. The purpose is very simple. There has to be transparency and accountability. Without that we know there is a tendency to misuse funds. There is a tendency to maybe allocate funds to programs which may not be universally accessible to the communities or maybe even directed toward a smaller number. These are things that happen when there is no accountability and no transparency.

The motion in no way states that we, the Canadian Alliance members, do not have confidence in the first nations to run their affairs. We are very positive they have the confidence to do so. We are positive they can take destiny in their own hands, address these issues, move ahead and become part and parcel of the multicultural mosaic. We are rated the number one country in the world, yet when we look at what is happening on the reserves and with the first nations, we pause, we stand, we shake our heads and say that there is something wrong.

Speakers have highlighted ways and means that we can address these issues. It is time to address this issue. We cannot let this injustice carry on, not in Canada.

What is the the problem? The problem is not money, obviously. The total amount of money that is spent by the Indian affairs department on reserves is close to $20,000 for every individual.

The delivery of the programs and where the money has been spent is an issue. I do not think we are going to stand up and start accusing people about where this money is going or that it has been misused. The motion states that the funds should be publicly reported and audited. We are asking for accountability and transparency.

The leaders of the bands have a responsibility to be accountable and transparent. They cannot hide behind the fact that because they are leaders they are accountable to no one and that if the funds come to them they can go ahead and do whatever with them.

The first nations are people of Canada as well. The funds are going to help them. When we look at fellow Canadians living in conditions which are deplorable, then we absolutely have every right to ask why is this happening.

I have had the occasion to talk to many members of the first nations. A lot have stated that many in their reserves are doing very well. I commend those who are. I met many individuals from first nations who are extremely wealthy. They are are seizing the opportunities that are presented and are moving ahead. This makes us happy because they are our citizens. That is what we want. We want our brothers and sisters from first nations to share in the wealth, to share in the prosperity and to share in the future that I hope this nation collectively presents.

I heard the members across, who are from first nations, say that they are part and parcel of Canada. They are Canadian citizens. We should ask ourselves why can our follow citizens not grab the opportunities? Why are they not part and parcel of the same mosaic that everybody else is?

Therefore, we should start somewhere and this motion is a start. Asking for accountability does not mean that at the end of the day it will solve all the problems which are occurring. However, it is a start and we need to carry on. This is what we as parliamentarians are doing tonight. We have a voice and a say because these are public funds.

I neglected to say, Mr. Speaker, that I will be sharing my time with my colleague from Skeena.

In conclusion, I am pleased to state that I am supporting this motion. I know, at the end of the day, it will help my my fellow Canadians get out of the deplorable situation which some of them are in. It will help them become equal partners.

[Andy Burton, Canadian Alliance, Skeena, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to rise in the House today to speak to the business of supply proposed by my Canadian Alliance colleague, the member of parliament for Nanaimo—Cowichan, which reads:

That the government stipulate that in all Contribution Agreements between the Federal Government and individual Indian Bands, the use of any public funds be publicly reported and accurately audited.

This motion is important in that it asks the government to ensure that the amount and use of public funds by an Indian band are accurately accounted for and those details made available to the public.

This may seem like a normal request but it is not. Currently Indian band books are exempt from requests under the Access to Information Act. Members of parliament or any other member of the public cannot request a band to account for the spending decisions they made with taxpayer dollars.

This motion, if passed, would dramatically change the way Indian bands handle their public funding. This would mean a positive change for the individual band members and an end to the potential for corruption which currently exists. I am not saying that every band council in Canada is corrupt. On the contrary, I am saying that the system is currently set up to allow for, and some would say foster, that kind of endeavour. This motion ensures clear accounting and auditing of public funds used by Indian bands. This should be the norm, but it is not.

Let me talk a bit about accountability, a word that in today's society is sometimes less valued than it should be. To be held accountable for one's action should be the norm in society. Whether we are talking about a government, a corporation or a member of the general public, we must all be accountable for our actions. When it comes to the public trust, and as such, public funds, accountability means much more.

With regard to government spending, the public and members of parliament have access to the public accounts report generated each year on the spending of each federal government department. This report is generated to ensure spending accountability by each department.

As a member of the opposition I will say that we still do find fault with some parts of government spending, but at least we have the ability to review the spending and call the government to task on it. In the case of Indian bands we do not and that is the crux of the motion.

Furthermore, a standing committee of the House can call any minister to its meeting to be held accountable for spending within his or her department. This is a process which begins very soon with part III of the estimates being tabled in the House in April. We do not have this kind of access to the spending intentions of Indian bands. Since public funds are being used, we should have that ability.

It is quite simple. An open, accountable process to review and audit the spending of public funds by Indian bands ensures the reduction, if not elimination, of abuse. That is an endeavour I strongly support.

Some may ask why does the public need to make Indian bands accountable for their spending and to ensure that accurate auditing takes place. Should we not just trust that funding as being put to good use and that the individual band members would ensure their band council which receives the federal funding spends this money wisely?

That is basically what the federal government has been doing, and individual band members will tell members themselves the system does not work. There are cases where band councils hold open meetings and ensure that band members are advised of and agree to their spending priorities. Unfortunately it is those band councils that do not subscribe to such an open process that have abused the system. That necessitates the change.

I am concerned for the members of those Indian bands when I say that the system does not work and needs to be changed. Open and accurate accounting and auditing of federal funds would force band councils to spend their federal dollars on items deemed a priority to the entire band and its members, and not just those of the band council, its chief or other individual members. Such openness would ensure that the department would be held accountable if it continued to fund Indian bands which have a history of misusing their funds.

The situation faced by Indian band members on reserves in many cases is deplorable. Driving through some reserves we find absolutely terrible housing conditions tremendously below national standards. It may surprise some to know that one-third of aboriginal people on reserves live in overcrowded conditions, that 50% of aboriginal children live in poverty, and that the infant mortality rate is twice as high for aboriginal children and three times as high for Inuit than for other Canadian children. This is a nightmare.

More than that, alcoholism, suicide, illness and crime rates are three times higher than for non-aboriginal people. It is deplorable, and yet with all the funding the federal government sends to Indian bands on reserves to try to curb these problems, to address these concerns it still persists.

Why? It is a fact that 25% of Canada's aboriginal bands are being run under remedial management plans, with a combined debt of just over $139 million. A survey of 300 band councils done by the Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development found that the most common problem was a lack of control on conflict of interest. This is incredible. Yet just over $18 billion was spent on aboriginal specific programming over the fiscal years 1997 to 2000 from the Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development and other departments to create a myriad of programs exclusively to remedy this situation, but to no avail.

I must ask if the government really believes that sending more money without the needed accountability will solve this problem. I do not think so.

Members in the House may wonder why I am so passionate about this issue. They probably think my only concern is the public purse. To that I say that in my riding of Skeena there are some 32 reserves, with a total population of just over 30,000 people. As their elected member of parliament I have a responsibility to ensure that their concerns and interests are met, along with those of the rest of the population of my riding.

To that end an ongoing overall level of accountability from elected on reserve representatives is paramount. I am supporting the motion because I truly believe it will make a difference, not only to those 30,000 constituents of mine but to the many hundreds of thousands of band members living on reserves throughout Canada.

We owe it to the individual band members, the ones coming to us complaining about the system, wanting change, to do just that. We must institute positive and needed change, as well as accountability where there previously was none. This can make an enormous difference in the lives of everyday aboriginal people living on reserves.

With accountability comes proper spending priorities and, as such, ensures that money earmarked by the department to help deal with some of the problems I mentioned earlier actually makes it to those programs.

Yes, we have a huge problem on some of our reserves. Let us take this opportunity, in the House, with this motion to make a difference.

I urge all members, particularly Liberal members, to support the motion. Accountability in public funding to Indian bands can only help. I urge members to join the Canadian Alliance in supporting the motion that is truly in the best interest of band members.

[Maurice Vellacott, Canadian Alliance, Saskatoon—Wanuskewin, SK]

Mr. Speaker, I would like the hon. member to respond to a question that occurred to me based on some remarks that were made by the auditor general.

It has been said that one way in which the government avoids having to enforce accountability measures in its dealing with bands is by not collecting information on allegations and then referring back to it so it can learn from specific cases. In other words, we need to learn from history or we will repeat the same mistakes.

The auditor general said that the department does not have a national reporting system to help process the allegations. It does not have an overall picture of the nature and the frequency of the allegations that show the ultimate disposition, the conditions leading to the allegations and the areas of high and low risk within and among different Indian bands and their impact on accountability and funding arrangements.

The auditor general made a request for information on allegations to various regional offices around the country. One of the regional offices responded that it did not know how many allegations it had received during the past two years.

It is fine for members of the House to say that there are really no problems, but if there is no reporting and regional offices say that they do not know how many allegations there are, it is easy to say there are no problems.

Would the member feel it to be a good thing, as the auditor general infers, to have a listing and a proper process whereby we know the ultimate disposition of these cases, the conditions leading to the allegations, the areas of high and low risk and so on, and the impact on accountability and funding arrangements? Would he agree with the inferences of the auditor general that we need something like that so that we can catalogue and learn from history so we do not repeat these mistakes and Indian people would be better served all across Canada?

[Andy Burton, Canadian Alliance, Skeena, BC]

Mr. Speaker, obviously there are a number of flaws in the system and questions like that are not being properly addressed.

I know in my riding the previous member received many letters from various concerned groups. It happens right across Canada. Our party is aware of a lot of these problems. Through proper accounting and proper auditing processes, many of these problems will definitely be highlighted and will possibly be dealt with in a better manner.

I certainly agree that the government should institute some kind of official reporting process so that when these problems occur they can be documented and dealt with. Possibly, when funding is being allocated to the various groups, these concerns would be taken into account and dealt with so that there would be proper accountability all the way down the line. In this way, dollars would be properly spent and would go toward the programs for which they were earmarked.

[John Bryden, Liberal, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Aldershot, ON]

Mr. Speaker, as you know, I have for some time had an interest in charities and the transparency and accountability of non-profit organizations.

Some years ago, I did an examination of the T3010 tax returns of all kinds of charities to see how vigilant Revenue Canada was in examining these returns. These returns require charities to identify the revenues, how much they are paying individuals, how much in donations and so forth. They are quite elaborate.

I got returns from all kinds of charities: ethnic groups, churches, service organizations and, I should say, aboriginal friendship societies. In surveying these returns, I did find mistakes and errors. I compared these returns with the financial reports of the charities themselves and found all kinds of inconsistencies.

With the aboriginal friendship groups, what I found is that these T-3010 returns to Revenue Canada were completely blank. They were sent in and properly addressed to Revenue Canada, but there was not a single line filled out. Obviously this had been going on for some time and I had to ask myself the question: is the fact that these official returns to Revenue Canada, the fact that they are blank and not checked, is it because they are being sent in by aboriginals and are they blank because the aboriginals know when they send them in that they will not be checked?

It raises a very serious question about whether Revenue Canada, on the one side, and the aboriginals who are responsible for sending these returns in for these friendship societies, on the other, whether they had both decided that because we were dealing with aboriginals, a less high standard of accountability was expected of them. In fact it was ludicrous because, as I say, these returns were completely blank so no accountability was required at all.

Later I became a member of the aboriginal affairs committee and I spent several years as a committee member hearing of the problems on the various reserves around the country. Then it became very apparent that in regard to many of the reserves that were in trouble, the trouble revolved around the fact that government money was going into these reserves and was not being spent on the programs. It also became very clear that for years earlier, decades earlier, governments had not expected or required of aboriginal groups to meet the same standards of transparency and accountability in their financial management as they would require of just about any other group.

This was a clear example in my mind of the kind of evil paternalism—and I really mean that—it is an evil paternalism that sets people aside by race and lowers the expectations of them. I see no distinction between what has happened to our aboriginal communities because we as a parliament have required less of them than what has happened with the residential schools.

We have before us a motion which I believe is going to be matched by legislation from the Indian and northern affairs minister that is long, long overdue. On all sides of the House we should support the legislation because at last we are saying to our aboriginal brothers, shall we say, “You are just like us. You are one of us”. But, Mr. Speaker, what we have been doing for so long is we have been willing to give them self-government. We have been willing to give them the benefit of control over large tracts of land, but we have not given them the same responsibility that we expect of everyone else. This has to end.

I would say that this motion which simply requires of aboriginal communities to meet the same standards of financial transparency, to submit to audit, that we would expect of any municipality, that we would expect of any corporation, of any charity—what we certainly should expect of a charity—we should expect of aboriginal groups.

I really do believe that this is one time in which we are very much all on the same wavelength in the House. I do not know whether the motion will be supported unanimously, but, Mr. Speaker, you can be darn certain that I will be voting for it.

[The Deputy Speaker]

It being 6.15 p.m., it is my duty to interrupt the proceedings and put forthwith every question necessary to dispose of the business of supply.

The question is on the amendment. Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the amendment?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[Some hon. members]

No.

[The Deputy Speaker]

All those in favour of the amendment will please say yea.

[Some hon. members]

Yea.

[The Deputy Speaker]

All those opposed will please say nay.

[Some hon. members]

Nay.

[The Deputy Speaker]

In my opinion the nays have it.

[An hon. member]

On division.

(Amendment negatived)

[The Deputy Speaker]

The next question is on the main motion. Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

(Motion agreed to)

A motion to adjourn the House under Standing Order 38 deemed to have been moved.