House of Commons Hansard #47 of the 37th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was rural.

Topics

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3:20 p.m.

London—Fanshawe Ontario

Liberal

Pat O'Brien LiberalParliamentary Secretary to Minister for International Trade

Mr. Speaker, I listened carefully to the comments of my colleague opposite. Unfortunately, I am not sure he listened very carefully to the Prime Minister.

The hon. member has mistakenly quoted the Prime Minister as saying that there are no problems with chapter 11. The Prime Minister did not say that. The Prime Minister said that the chapter has worked relatively well but that in a trade relationship with the U.S., which totals $1.3 billion daily, there are bound to be irritants and rough spots. The Prime Minister did not say there were no problems. He said that the chapter was working relatively well given the size of the relationship.

What the Minister for International Trade has said repeatedly, and he has been crystal clear on this, is that we need to protect investment. He said that was very important but that some rulings by dispute panels had gone beyond the scope of the original signers of the NAFTA. He said that we needed a chapter like chapter 11 but that it needed clarification and tightening up.

Does the hon. member believe in the necessity of protecting investment? Does he not see that without some protection for investment such a treaty will likely bring very few benefits to any of the participating countries?

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3:20 p.m.

Bloc

Bernard Bigras Bloc Rosemont—Petite-Patrie, QC

Mr. Speaker, this government says that “Chapter 11 works relatively well. There are only minor problems”. Need I remind the parliamentary secretary that chapter 11 deals with relations between businesses and the government?

If the parliamentary secretary accepts that, under this chapter, the legislation of his government can be legally challenged, it says a lot about who will protect this trade agreement. The comments made by the parliamentary secretary are totally unacceptable and only seek to protect investors, at the expense of people's health and of their environment.

If the parliamentary secretary thinks there is no problem with the fact that the Canadian legislation can be legally challenged, fine. Personally, I do not think he is in the right place. He should go back to the private sector, because we are here to pass laws that will not be legally challenged by major companies.

If the parliamentary secretary believes what he just said, let him go back to the private sector, because the House of Commons is not where he should be.

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3:20 p.m.

Liberal

Pat O'Brien Liberal London—Fanshawe, ON

Mr. Speaker, if the hon. member is going to make personal comments and give me gratuitous advice about where I should go, he ought to do some research and know that I do not come from a business background. The hon. member again shows quite clearly that he is weak in his research.

The fact is, as I, the Prime Minister and the minister have said, the chapter has worked relatively well in a trade agreement with $1.3 billion daily trade. Yes, there are bound to be problems and there have been problems but not that many. The government has won several of the disputes that have been launched.

Does the hon. member somehow think that companies, whether or not there is a NAFTA chapter 11, cannot sue if they feel their interests have been unfairly prejudiced? What world is he coming from? We cannot stop individuals or corporations from launching lawsuits. They do not even need chapter 11. They have that right under the rule of law in Canada.

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3:20 p.m.

Bloc

Bernard Bigras Bloc Rosemont—Petite-Patrie, QC

Mr. Speaker, I do not believe I misunderstand my role and that of the other members in the House. We obviously want to increase Canadian investments and facilitate exports. We want a FTAA but not at any cost. Above all our role is to protect the health of the people and our environment.

When the government and the House pass laws to protect our environment and the parliamentary secretary says that there is nothing wrong with legislation that his own government has brought forward being legally challenged, what kind of world are we in?

We are here to facilitate Canada's economic development, but also the protect to health of our people. If the parliamentary secretary is not ready to defend these principles, some day, when he goes on the campaign trail, his constituents will certainly remind him of that.

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3:25 p.m.

Liberal

Jean Augustine Liberal Etobicoke—Lakeshore, ON

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to participate in the debate on the motion put forward by the opposition on the free trade agreement of the Americas. I will be sharing my time with the member for Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Aldershot.

At the summit of the Americas this past weekend my constituents and other Canadians witnessed an historic gathering. Thirty-four heads of state met in Quebec to discuss many issues of mutual interest and to create the largest free trade zone in the hemisphere. Thousands of Canadians, through demonstrations or by other means, have made their opinions known regarding the FTAA negotiations.

Weeks prior to the Quebec summit, I had the opportunity to hear from the people of my riding of Etobicoke—Lakeshore on the issues. I also heard the views of various witnesses who appeared before the Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Trade, of which I am a member.

As a result of the federal government's commitment to ongoing dialogue and public debate on the issue, Canadians have a sense of the FTAA and what it will mean for them. The government is determined to make the FTAA negotiations as open and transparent as possible.

The government knows Canadians have a wide range of views on the issues. Many Canadians come from the regions with which we are looking to participate. Some of them fear their views might not find their way to the negotiating table.

However it is important to the government that its policy course advance the interests of all Canadians and that it hear from Canadians on issues of national interest. That is why the government wants and facilitates an informed public debate. What is happening today is part of that.

Canadians value transparency in government and the federal government would not have it any other way. In developing trade policies and agreements, the government makes every effort to facilitate the participation and input of all Canadians. Through the FTAA process, the federal government has shown its commitment to public discussion on this important issue.

The Minister of Foreign Affairs and the Minister for International Trade have consulted provincial and territorial governments, parliamentarians, civil society, environmental and labour groups, business leaders, academics and other citizens on the FTAA.

The federal government has taken a series of steps to facilitate such public involvement, and I will highlight a few of those steps.

The government contributed funding to the people's summit, where Canadian ministers were joined by high level representatives from 20 countries and five international institutions and met with more than 60 representatives of civil society networks, groups and associations. Most of us who watched the people's summit on television know it was successful.

As well, the government has repeatedly answered to parliamentarians through debates on the floor of the House, appearances by ministers before the Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Trade, briefings by officials and co-operation with committees of both Houses of parliament regarding the FTAA and the WTO.

In May 1999 the Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade established a trade negotiations and agreements website in order to use the Internet as the quickest and most efficient way to give Canadians the information they needed and the information they wanted on trade.

Since December of last year the website has been a valuable resource whereby thousands of Canadians can view Canada's proposal in the FTAA negotiations. Over and over the minister responded in the House that the website was up and running.

Canadians should know that our country was the first in the hemisphere to publicly release Canada's FTAA negotiating position. That happened about a year ago in response to the Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Trade Report on the FTAA.

In doing so, Canada has led the way in citizen engagement and is encouraging FTAA partners to follow suit and make their positions public. Two of our trading partners took us up on this. Chile and the United States have followed Canada's example and released detailed summaries of their negotiating positions on their respective websites.

I am encouraged that Canada is reaching beyond all borders to ensure that the citizens of the hemisphere are also made aware of the FTAA negotiations. This is of particular importance to smaller nations of the hemisphere where there is no comparative advantage in technology.

Technological assistance from Canada in helping them to get their messages across to the people would be useful in ensuring that this dialogue on transparency taking place in the House today can also happen in all other parliaments. In addition to ensuring that those countries can have the benefit of technology in communicating to their citizens, Canada has offered assistance.

Much has been said in the debates on the FTAA about the text of the negotiations. Canadians wonder if they will ever get to see the text. By their nature, negotiations are formal discussions intending to secure an advantage or a benefit for those involved. Whether it concerns a commercial contract or a peace settlement among nations, negotiations often take place behind closed doors. Releasing the text beforehand is counterproductive to the interests of Canadians and would jeopardize the discussions by undermining the negotiating stands of participants or making available privileged information that could allow some to profit at the expense of others.

We know the House was informed that Canadians will see the text of the negotiations in the next few days once they are available in the four languages of the FTAA: English, French, Portuguese and Spanish.

Thanks to Canada's leadership the negotiations for the FTAA have set new standards for openness and transparency in other ways. The engagement of civil society in the FTAA process is a result of Canada's effort from the very beginning.

I must express thanks to the Minister for International Trade. During his chairmanship of the FTAA negotiations from May 1998 until November 1999, Canada was instrumental in establishing the committee of government representatives on the participation of civil society.

We have worked very hard in several areas to ensure that participation. The committee of government representatives on the participation of civil society meets regularly as a consultative body in the negotiations and serves as a forum for input from citizen based groups, the business community and non-governmental organizations. This is an unprecedented step in international negotiations.

On February 23 of this year Canada's latest proposals were announced to expand and strengthen the mandate of the committee. They were made available on the trade negotiations and agreements website.

The summit itself was widely covered by broadcast media and Canadians were able to see a full session of the debates between the 34 heads of state during the morning of April 21.

These are concrete steps that demonstrate the government's commitment to openness and transparency in the FTAA deliberations.

In closing, let me reiterate that Canada's views on public input into the FTAA from the outset has been and remain in full support of transparency in ways that safeguard Canada's interests and reinforce the confidence in the government's ability to reflect its interests and priorities.

Parliamentarians in civil society play a major role in the process. Having this debate and using the mechanisms at our disposal such as committees ensures that Canadians understand the issues and are able to convey their views to government. The debate today is part of that transparency.

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3:35 p.m.

Liberal

John Bryden Liberal Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Aldershot, ON

Mr. Speaker, I would like to begin by reminding those who are watching the debate of the actual wording of the motion because I think it is important.

The Bloc Quebecois motion says:

That the government put in place an open and ongoing process to keep Parliament informed of negotiations to establish a Free Trade Area of the Americas so as to allow parliamentarians to debate it and civil society to be consulted before Parliament approves it.

This is another example of why the Bloc Quebecois continues to demonstrate that it is probably the best opposition party in the House. I say this in the context of the problems today that have been experienced by the Canadian Alliance with the division within the party. More than that, this is the first time in a very long time that the House has had an opposition motion before it, which I think is a motion of considerable weight and quality and certainly merits the debate it is getting today.

If this were a motion put forward by a private member from the opposition, where we on this side regard all private members' motions and private members' bills as issues of free votes, I do not think there is any question at all that this motion by the Bloc would be supported. The negotiations that went on this last weekend in Quebec and which will continue pertaining to creating a sort of common market of the Americas is an issue of tremendous importance to Canadians and I think is an issue of tremendous importance to the House.

When the Bloc comes forward or anyone in the House comes forward with a motion suggesting that parliament should take these negotiations seriously and should stay abreast of these negotiations as best it can is quite appropriate indeed.

I can tell everyone that I have some sympathy with the protesters that appeared at the summit at Quebec on the past weekend. Of course I am not interested in those people who merely threw rocks and demonstrated for the television cameras. I do not have any respect for any person who considers speech something that requires him or her to wear a mask. When we speak either in the House or in public or even on the streets then we should speak as who we are and be seen. However, the majority of the protesters were seen and they were peaceful protesters. They had an important statement to make because whatever is happening and whatever is the ultimate outcome of these negotiations, there are legitimate concerns about sovereignty.

I am not one who puts a lot of credence in the kind of rhetoric that we hear from the Council of Canadians and its leader, but I really believe that when we establish transnational trade agreements and create dependencies among countries there are genuine issues of sovereignty. When we create dependencies, we create situations where we cannot take it back or we have situations where we have lost a certain amount of control as parliamentarians, as governments over our country's destiny because we have transnational agreements in place.

The Bloc during question period raised a number of questions with respect to the so-called chapter 11 in the North American Free Trade Agreement whereby corporations have an opportunity to litigate across the border. That is if a corporation in Mexico feels that a corporation in Canada that is competing unfairly for the same market within the United States, Canada or Mexico, if it feels that it has some unfair advantage in the terminology of the trade agreement, then it can take that corporation to court and possibly win.

There is a genuine problem of sovereignty there. What that really means is that a business enterprise operating in Canada is subject to rules and challenges that exist outside this country. It is very right to be concerned about that.

On the other hand, Mr. Speaker, I believe that the chapter 11 is necessary. However we should debate it, and it is healthy to debate it, because it works. I believe it works in the context that we have it now with the United States and Mexico.

Will it work as well if it is applied in the context of Brazil, Argentina and other countries of Latin America? Will it work when it is applied to 30 countries? I am not so certain. I need to see that debate. When the Bloc Quebecois comes forth with a proposal that says the House should debate that kind of issue, I can only actually support in spirit what the motion is proposing.

I have other concerns with respect to this whole process of a free trade zone of the Americas that again gives me some sympathy for some of the peaceful protesters who were in Quebec. I ask myself questions occasionally, Mr. Speaker, about what does it really mean? What is the real motive behind creating this enormous free trade zone of the western hemisphere when in fact most of the economic activity is occurring in North America? I suppose we could add Brazil and I think we would get probably three-quarters of the economic activity of the western hemisphere. So I ask myself then what is the incentive? Why are we bringing in all those other countries of the western hemisphere?

So far I have not had a really good explanation from watching television because I do not of course have any special access to the negotiations that are going on in Quebec, and nor should I because as the previous government speaker mentioned of course negotiations have to be undertaken behind closed doors. However there does come a point in which we as parliamentarians have to know the content of these negotiations and that is where I find a lot of favour in the motion before the House.

The question is where is it really taking us? Why do we want to make this common market of the Americas? More and more I am coming to the conclusion or coming to the feeling that it is all about creating a sort of firewall, creating an uneconomic entity in the western hemisphere to insulate Canada, the United States, Mexico and the other countries, but probably principally the United States because I think a lot of this is coming from the United States, to insulate the North American economies from what could happen in the Far East or in Europe. The world marketplace is changing dramatically and what has happened is we created huge economic dependencies in the Far East.

Again I come back to the point that this is where there are legitimate questions to be asked about globalization because it creates these enormous dependencies. What will happen, if when we create these expectations and we create these countries that rely on one another for trade, when the resources run out? What happens when an economic giant comes on the scene, like China?

I do not think there has been enough thought and debate in this House about what it is going to mean when the Chinese actually take their place in the world economy. It is an accident of history that the Chinese should be for 50 years under a communist regime, under a controlled economy regime because for thousands of years the Chinese have been the ultimate entrepreneurs. Chinese is the language of commerce in the Far East.

I think we are going to see dramatic economic changes in the Far East which could have an enormous impact on the western hemisphere. So I wonder sometimes whether this whole idea of a free trade zone of the Americas is really about creating some sort of insulation for Canada, the United States, Mexico and the countries of the western hemisphere.

And finally, I would say that with respect to keeping parliament informed, as this motion proposes, the reality is that we in this House cannot have an emergency debate or a debate like this every day or every week, even on an important subject like this.

I would suggest to you, Mr. Speaker, that we make sure that the Senate is paying attention to this motion, because I believe that the senators do, and they have the opportunity in terms of time and expertise to pay attention to this kind of issue and perhaps be the part of parliament that is kept informed as these negotiations are ongoing.

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3:45 p.m.

Bloc

Richard Marceau Bloc Charlesbourg—Jacques-Cartier, QC

Mr. Speaker, it is with great pleasure that I rise today to speak to the motion brought forward by my colleague from Joliette. One word could be used to summarize this motion, the word transparency.

When the issues at stake touch the everyday life of people, what they watch, what they listen to, what they read, what they eat, what they drink, what they use, it is important that people be informed of these issues by those they elected to represent them in this House. That is why this motion is important. I encourage all members of this honourable House to vote in favour of the motion.

I would like to take this opportunity to discuss another aspect of transparency: the role of legislatures, of the parliaments of federated states, such as that of Quebec.

In this House we are regularly told that Canada is one of the most decentralized federations, that it is a model for the world. We pat ourselves on the backs, yet often many, the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs and the Minister for International Trade in particular, are sorely mistaken.

Let us take a look at what is being done in other parts of the world, at examples of approaches that might differ a bit from what is applied here, and might be far more productive.

Let us take, for example, the European Union, an association of sovereign states. The ministers across the way often try to tell us that the European Union is a model because it is headed toward a federal system. It is not so. The European Union makes far more room for its member states in the discussion and in the negotiations leading to trade treaties.

The main article governing this is article 133 of the treaty on the European Union, which states that when the matters under negotiation fall wholly into areas under EU jurisdiction, it is the European Commission that negotiates on behalf of the EU. That said, all member states have given the commission that mandate. Thus, right from the start, the member states play a far greater role in determining the position of the union, unlike what is done here. Here the provinces are not even consulted, and they are barely kept informed. That is the first point.

Second, it is possible for countries, France being one example, to allow their national assembly a say. For example, even if the topics being discussed are the exclusive preserve of the European Union, the national assembly has given itself the authority, through a constitutional amendment passed by the French in 1992, to use the European position to give its point of view. This is an inquiry. It allows questions to be put to the European Commission so that national elected representatives are not left out of such important negotiations.

The third point I wish to make, still in connection with the European Union, is that increasingly international treaties do not concern trade exclusively.

For example, the treaty between the European Union and Israel, or the free trade agreement between the European Union and Mexico, include issues which are not the exclusive jurisdiction of Europe, with the result that member states must also ratify these treaties.

The European Union therefore ensures that, before its position is finalized, member states also have their say, including during the ratification process itself.

Members opposite say “The European Union is different. It is not a federation, even if that is the direction in which it is headed, other models should be considered”. Very well, I say, let us look at two other modern federations. Let us look at Germany, a powerful nation, a member of the G-7, like Canada, a federal state with a number of Länder.

When Germany, in the European context, must decide on a position and it falls within an area which comes predominantly under the jurisdiction of the Länder, the federated states of Germany, it is the Länder which determine Germany's position and, what is more, it is a representative of the Länder who sits down at the international negotiating table, on which are written the words “Allemagne-Germany-Deutschland”, and who negotiates on behalf of the federal state.

Federated states, in areas under their jurisdiction, will therefore negotiate in the place of the federal government, something not insignificant. We know very well, obviously, that the best way to be represented internationally is to be independent. In the meantime, however, they better not try to tell us that Canada is the most decentralized federation, because it is not true. We have seen this in the case of Germany.

There is another interesting example worth mentioning, that of Belgium, which applies what I would call a Belgian version of the Gérin-Lajoie doctrine. The Flemish or French communities or Brussels have external jurisdiction over their internal jurisdictions. In their respective areas, the federated states of Belgium, the federated communities of Belgium, speak for Belgium internationally.

These are three examples that indicate Canada is truly a 19th century federal model. It is not a modern federation. In a world increasingly open, increasingly, permit me this tautology, globalized, it is unacceptable that Canada's federated states are not consulted properly, not informed properly and involved in the process before, during and after negotiations.

We think it would have been far better, first, to put in place a very formal process to consult with the provinces in order to define Canada's position; second, to ensure that Quebec is part of the binational negotiation team with the federal government; and third, if a much more interesting model were to be used, to ensure that in provincial areas of jurisdiction, Quebec and any other province interested to do so, because there could be some, although I do not think there are any, but there could be, may have a say and speak out for their own interests.

It only makes sense since, at some point in time, the legislation for the implementation of this treaty will have to be passed. It will be possible for a province to say “We differ; we do not want this treaty to be implemented”. Common sense would dictate that federated states, the provinces, for instance, be allowed to negotiate on their own behalf within their sphere of jurisdiction, so that, later on, they would be able to say “We negotiated this ourselves; we have no qualms about putting an implementation bill to a vote”.

First, we have to realize how important it is to support this motion, because it deals with transparency. Second, we need to stress how much this notion of transparency is misunderstood or ignored by the government. We have to ensure that federated states, and Quebec in particular, with clear cut positions to defend, have their say in the process before, during and after the negotiations.

Members may agree with me that this will have to be done while Quebecers prepare to make the decision that will allow their interests to be protected and promoted at the international level like they deserve to be, that is while they prepare to decide to build their own country.

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3:55 p.m.

London—Fanshawe Ontario

Liberal

Pat O'Brien LiberalParliamentary Secretary to Minister for International Trade

Mr. Speaker, I wonder if my hon. colleague opposite is really suggesting that the federal government enter into major negotiations on a trade treaty with 10 provincial partners sitting at the same table. What about the three territories of Canada? Should they be there? Would it be undemocratic to leave them out?

Is the hon. member really suggesting that all of the countries proceed like that? We would need an awfully huge negotiating table. Is he serious? Does he believe such a process would be practical? Does he not understand that Canadians have elected the federal government from coast to coast to coast to speak for them and their interests? That includes, of course, the province of Quebec, where the government was re-elected with a higher number of seats. Is the member serious about his suggestion that we take such a large delegation? What is his real problem with understanding that the federal government is the legitimate authority to negotiate on behalf of all Canadians?

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3:55 p.m.

Bloc

Richard Marceau Bloc Charlesbourg—Jacques-Cartier, QC

Mr. Speaker, I would remind the parliamentary secretary to the Minister for International Trade that his party has fewer seats from Quebec in this House than the Bloc Quebecois. Therefore, there is a huge problem in the premise of his question. That is my first point.

Second, does he not understand that Quebecers never gave the government the mandate to negotiate on the international stage in areas outside its jurisdiction? Quebecers never gave it such a mandate.

Third, we can talk about details if he wants, I do not mind. I make the following suggestions. First, a Quebec-Canada or Canada-Quebec binational team should be established to defend Quebec's interests pending a yes on sovereignty, which will happen sooner than the member opposite may think.

I see him smile. We need not go to Mars to see examples of how federations work. I named two, Belgium and Germany. In both cases, the federated states were much more involved in areas under their jurisdiction on the international stage. So there is no point in trying to have us believe that Canada is a model for all federations.

We can also look at what is done in the European Union, where the various member countries work together before, during and after negotiations not only so they feel involved, but also so their interests are defended, protected and promoted rather aggressively.

There are different ways of doing this. We are willing to talk about it. In fact, this will also be part of the partnership discussions that will take place after Quebec achieves full independence.

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3:55 p.m.

Liberal

Pat O'Brien Liberal London—Fanshawe, ON

Mr. Speaker, surely the hon. member is aware of the extensive consultations between the federal government and all the provinces, including la belle province de Quebec.

Surely the hon. member is aware that in one of the latter meetings between the Quebec minister and the Minister for International Trade the full time that had been set aside by the international trade minister was not even needed, as the Quebec minister had raised his points.

Surely the hon. member is aware that in the EU, which his party likes to quote as an example, those nations in the EU are willingly sacrificing considerable sovereignty to be part of the EU.

I understand that the member is a separatist and that his goal is a separate Quebec. I disagree with him, quite frankly, that it will ever happen, but let us be candid here. He cannot have it both ways. Either he wants sovereignty for Quebec or he understands that in the EU he quotes those nations are giving up sovereignty. Which is it?

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4 p.m.

Bloc

Richard Marceau Bloc Charlesbourg—Jacques-Cartier, QC

Mr. Speaker, I would like to see the parliamentary secretary to the Minister for International Trade understand how the European Union operates. It is composed of sovereign states, independent states. This is a model partnership between sovereignty nations, one that we sovereignists on this side of the House are certainly prepared to look at, but not to copy word for word, comma for comma. This is a model of partnership between sovereign nations which, if explored in a less partisan manner and I will go further than that, if the other side of this House would just look at it, would be seen as the model for the future. We would see that independent and sovereign nations can work together far better than when a nation like Quebec feels constrained by an outmoded arrangement like the Canadian federation, which dates back to 1867.

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4 p.m.

Bloc

Paul Crête Bloc Kamouraska—Rivière-Du-Loup—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC

Mr. Speaker, I am very pleased to speak today to the opposition motion proposed by the Bloc Quebecois member for Joliette and seconded by myself.

This is indeed in very direct continuity with the reflections proposed to us throughout the past week by the peoples' summit, the summit of the Americas and the public participation in the protest, as well as the public's desire to have a free trade agreement that respects social, economic and cultural aspects as well as all other concerns, so that we will have not just free trade within the Americas but also a society that will be able to reap its benefits.

There was one main message for me. As a parliamentarian who took part in the parliamentary forum at the people's summit and as someone who took part in the peaceful march, I realized that this was an extraordinary march which took place in Quebec City to show that people from all walks of life, women's groups, youth, unions and ordinary members of the public, simply wished to say “Yes, we can agree with a free trade area, but not the one that we know nothing about yet, the one about which we have seen only the trade side. We want to have a society that allows people to achieve things”.

For me, the motion that was moved today, practically the day after the summit, in a way ensures that our role as parliamentarians will continue. The motion reads as follows:

That the government put in place an open and ongoing process to keep Parliament informed of negotiations to establish a Free Trade Area of the Americas so as to allow parliamentarians to debate it and civil society to be consulted before official ratification by the government, authorized by Parliament.

Everywhere, this was the message I received from people. They are telling us “The FTAA is something major. It seems fairly complicated”. We had NAFTA, but some of the provisions in it do not seem to be working as well as they could, such as chapter 11 and the defence of rights issue. We are also in a very different situation, where the size of countries' economies and their prosperity are completely different.

For instance, 66% of all economic activity is concentrated in the United States and only 34% in the other countries. So, adjustments need to be made.

That is the message that was sent to us by citizens who want their parliamentarians to act as watchdogs, to ensure every step of the way that whatever agreement is reached is something useful that we all want. The worst thing would be to say: “Parliament will look into this at the end of the negotiations in 2005. We will see what came out of the negotiations”.

What we have come to realize from the current practice and also the answers the Prime Minister gave us today about the enforcement of chapter 11 of NAFTA is that we need to scrutinize things very carefully because in negotiations a lot of things are settled at the last minute. Concessions are made and our society and our young people should not have to pay for them. This is probably why I have given this matter considerable thought and I do hope this motion will be adopted.

Many of the young people who took part in the protest of the people's summit were there to say: “It is the world we will have to live in that you are defining and we want to ensure that this will be done according to criteria we find both interesting and acceptable. In the past, social gains were made by some countries and we have to ensure that we benefit from those and that everyone else does”.

Some environmental concerns were expressed by young people in a particularly brilliant manner. There were also concerns about working conditions and the whole issue of child labour. All these situations contribute to making this an important issue.

We must be aware, as parliamentarians, of how important it is to adopt this motion. It is important to adopt it in its initial version, but even more so in its amended version. If we cannot manage to adopt the amendment, at least let us adopt the main motion. However the amendment includes a very important element. It says “before official ratification by the government, authorized by parliament”. In other words, let us give back the power to those who were elected by the public, to those who received a mandate from the public.

The Prime Minister said that “it is during an election that these things are settled”. This is quite possible and we should all be aware of that. This is something I have been thinking about and I said it in the text. Parliamentarians and those who wish to become parliamentarians some day cannot ignore this plea, otherwise they will stop being parliamentarians or they never will become parliamentarians.

For those who did not listen to what was said last weekend, the next time there is an election in Quebec, in Canada or anywhere in the world, people will want to make sure that what is being negotiated by their government regarding the FTAA is negotiated under certain conditions, include certain programs and yield the desired result. I say that because the message is that people no longer want agreements signed exclusively on the basis of trade. They no longer want to be told that increased trade will create wealth. Increased trade can help to create wealth, but there is a responsibility that has not been adequately fulfilled by governments over the last ten years, and I am talking about the distribution of wealth. It is a responsibility of governments.

The private sector can create wealth, but it does not have the full responsibility of ensuring its distribution. It is the state's responsibility. Personally, I believe that the state is always better served when it is under the control of those who were elected by the people.

As parliamentarians, we have a responsibility. The people sent us a clear message in this regard. Now that dust is settling on the summit of the Americas and that negotiations are beginning, we must ensure, as parliamentarians, that we will have the necessary tools to follow up on it.

The motion states “That the government put in place an open and ongoing process”. My personal position on this is a suggestion that could be heeded. This open and ongoing process could easily, in my opinion, be a special parliamentary committee, consisting of members representing all aspects of negotiation, not just those having to do with trade, but social and environmental aspects as well, so that there is regular follow-up and so that, when there are progress meetings to move negotiations forward, there will be watchdogs in parliament as well.

The summit of the Americas left us with two images: one of people engaged in violent demonstrations on the perimeter and the other of people, on both sides of the wall, who were unable to address the basic issues. So they focussed on the wall. This was as true of heads of state on their side as it was of people on the other side, some of whose actions were reprehensible.

What the public is asking of these parliamentarians is that they negotiate in a civilized fashion, in their choice of words, in the ideas they put forward, and in their defence of opinions, so that when we are judged in the next election, it will be on the basis of having assumed our responsibilities and having said “Yes, we will conduct a regular follow-up and yes, ultimately, we will vote on the proposal. If it is acceptable, we will vote in favour, and if it is not, we will vote against”. This brings significant pressure to bear in negotiations.

Heads of state were not given a blank cheque. Furthermore, they were only too aware of this. Their mandate is to come up with a free trade agreement with a human face. If they do not fulfil this part of the mandate, the mandate will simply be taken away. However for this to happen, the House of Commons, like all parliaments concerned, must be able to make its views and position known, because we are the representatives of the public

We just had a summit where we were told that there were all sorts of people, including extremists.

Finally, the Comité de mobilisation du Cégep de Rivière-du-Loup, a group of students interested in this issue, came up with about ten recommendations to make the FTAA acceptable. Here is one of these recommendations:

That the FTAA not be established solely on an economic basis and that it not be a threshold to extend NAFTA but, rather, that it create a social balance in relation to NAFTA.

There are many such recommendations and they provide a framework that I find truly exciting. Today, this parliament has a responsibility to make a conscious decision and to ensure that negotiations will be adequately monitored.

This is what the public expects and I hope the government majority will have the courage to follow up on the message sent to it by the public.

Business Of The HouseGovernment Orders

4:10 p.m.

Liberal

Jacques Saada Liberal Brossard—La Prairie, QC

Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order. I think you would find consent for the following motion:

I move:

That when the House is in Committee of the Whole later this day, two members may share one twenty minute speaking period.

Business Of The HouseGovernment Orders

4:10 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bélair)

The House has heard the terms of the motion. Is there unanimous consent to adopt the motion?

Business Of The HouseGovernment Orders

4:10 p.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

(Motion agreed to)

Committees Of The HouseRoutine Proceedings

April 24th, 2001 / 4:10 p.m.

Liberal

Jacques Saada Liberal Brossard—La Prairie, QC

Mr. Speaker, I believe you would find consent for this motion as well.

I move:

That the Standing Committee on Fisheries and Oceans be authorized to travel to Shelburne County and Halifax, N.S., St. Alban's and Baie d'Espoir, Nfld., Îles-de-la-Madeleine, Qc, Charlottetown, P.E.I., and Moncton, N.B., during the period of May 5, 2001 to May 11, 2001, to continue their review of the Oceans Act, and their comprehensive studies on aquaculture, Canadian Coast Guard fleet management and departmental structure in the Gulf Region, and that the said Committee be composed of two Alliance members, one Bloc Québécois member, one NDP member, one Progressive-Conservative member and five Liberals, and that the necessary staff do accompany the Committee.

Committees Of The HouseRoutine Proceedings

4:10 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bélair)

Does the hon. member have the consent of the House to move the motion?

Committees Of The HouseRoutine Proceedings

4:10 p.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

Committees Of The HouseRoutine Proceedings

4:10 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bélair)

Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion?

Committees Of The HouseRoutine Proceedings

4:10 p.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

(Motion agreed to)

The House resumed consideration of the motion and of the amendment.

SupplyGovernment Orders

4:10 p.m.

Bloc

Pierre Paquette Bloc Joliette, QC

Mr. Speaker, I really appreciated my colleague's speech. At the end of his presentation, he referred to the positions taken by the CEGEP de Rivière-du-Loup mobilization committee.

I have had the opportunity in a debate to share with him the ideas put forward by these students and I was very impressed to see they did not object to market openness nor to free trade, but they suggested a number of conditions. They have learned from the past as we should also do.

I would like my colleague to give us more details on something he has already talked about, which is the general approach used by these young people to mobilize the students of Collège de Rivière-du-Loup in Quebec.

SupplyGovernment Orders

4:10 p.m.

Bloc

Paul Crête Bloc Kamouraska—Rivière-Du-Loup—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC

Mr. Speaker, on his tour, the hon. member for Joliette had the opportunity to meet with students of CEGEP de Rivière-du-Loup and CEGEP de La Pocatière.

In Rivière-du-Loup, the students had some kind of a charter setting out a number of positions. I will quote just a few, to show those students' concern:

That the FTAA promote a form of interconnected democracy between the people and its government as well as between the various member states of the FTAA.

That a strong international committee be set up to impose sanctions in the case of human rights violations, which would not be subjected at all to the proposed international trade law committee.

That the FTAA help protect local economies, small and medium-sized businesses and all low capital competitors, as well as cultural differences, by limiting the creation of monopolies in order to stimulate strong, just and fair competition.

So these are some logical and rational positions, which at the same time take into account objectives that are not purely commercial. I think there is an extraordinary message in there for the elected officials that we are.

On that occasion, I even put forward an idea which I think would be interesting to implement within the next few years, and I wish we had the opportunity to implement it. It would be to set up a parliament of the students of the Americas, which would meet at least once in the course of the next three or four years, where we could hear students from all these countries telling us what kind of America they would like to live in in the future.

I am sure we would end up with a plan based on solidarity, which would not generate opposition among people but rather create wealth and distribute it fairly.

I want to thank the students from my region and all those I saw at the demonstration and who made some specific proposals such as those. I think it augurs well when more and more young people want to take their future into their own hands, get involved and take action to make the world a better place in which to live.

SupplyGovernment Orders

4:15 p.m.

Liberal

Bill Graham Liberal Toronto Centre—Rosedale, ON

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to share my time with the hon. member for Brampton West—Mississauga.

First, I would like to congratulate the member for Joliette for his motion. It includes a very important principle, that is the participation of parliamentarians and of the civil society in the process of economic integration of our hemisphere.

Judging by today's debate and question period, it is clear that the members are already involved in this process. Opinions vary quite a bit, but members are well-informed about the best conditions for the development of free trade in the Americas.

As I said to the member for Halifax this morning, we all agree that we want trade. We recognize the need for economic integration but we also recognize that it needs to exist in the context that recognizes human rights, democracy, sustainable development, cultural diversity and the protection of labour standards. We therefore often differ on the means to achieve that end.

My constituents fully understand that the prosperity of our citizens depends on a free and open economy throughout the Americas and throughout the world. It depends on a system of international trade that is buttressed by international rules. These rules would enable trade and economic integration to take place so that we who have benefited so much from that trade and from the wealth that has been created by a free and open society and a free and open economy, can now begin to share those values, that openness and those opportunities with other less fortunate people in our own hemisphere.

I am very proud of what took place in Quebec City last weekend. It was an open and transparent process resulting in a democracy clause that will continue to guarantee that there will be democratic governments throughout the Americas.

A commitment was made by the leaders on such diverse issues as health, poverty reduction, education, human rights, the assurance of effective courts, the elimination of the drug trade and other issues. A plan of action was made with concrete steps, amendments and commitments that would ensure that these take place with proper financial resources and human resources to ensure it.

Thanks to our government, the Prime Minister, the Minister of Foreign Affairs, the Minister for International Trade and others, we have had a meeting in Quebec City which has brought together the leaders of the Americas. They have made concrete commitments to ensure values throughout our hemisphere that would benefit all of our citizens.

I wish to pay particular tribute to the Minister for International Trade. I was present in the room when the United States representative for trade pointed out that it was our minister of trade who ensured that the negotiating text of the free trade agreement be made available so that all members of civil society and all members of parliament could have an opportunity to discuss its terms. It was under pressure from our government and our minister that achieved that result in Buenos Aires and for which we would all benefit.

The debate calls for an open and continuous process to engage parliamentarians and civil society in what we were engaged in last weekend. The government is committed to that.

Parliamentarians also have a role to play. I ask my colleagues who participated in the foreign affairs and international trade standing committee for the past two years what we have been doing. We did a report on the MAI, the FTAA and the WTO. We are presently doing a study into the summit process itself. All these meetings and discussions, which are available to all members and all parties, bring together not only members of parliament but witnesses from civil society as well.

We travel across the country and we hear from every individual who wants to come before our committee to give his or her position on these important issues. We have extensive hearings and we make recommendations. The government is then obliged to respond to those recommendations in the House, which it has done.

Through our committee system we have had the opportunity to actively participate as parliamentarians in the process of hemispheric economic integration. We attend meetings regularly. The member for Calgary East, who spoke critically of the process himself, pointed out this morning that he attended the ministerial meeting of the WTO in Seattle. I was also there. Other members of the House have been to many ministerial meetings. We accompany the ministers. We have an opportunity to be part of the process and we do that on a regular basis.

I remind everyone that in the House just a few weeks ago we established the interparliamentary forum of the Americas, bringing together the representatives from the parliaments of 34 countries of the Americas. They will be able to debate and they will be able to share their values, views and impressions with one another on a permanent basis now because Canada led the way in the formation of what is a very important interparliamentary body for the Americas.

Parliamentarians are actively engaged and through our government do actively engage themselves in this process, as is also true of civil society. I recall what happened in Toronto some years ago when our minister of trade held the first meeting as a lead up to the summit. He brought in civil society at that time. It was the first time that had been done.

A similar meeting took place at the summit in Quebec City. On the weekend I had the opportunity to chair an extraordinary meeting of 57 NGOs composed of representatives of indigenous peoples, human rights groups, sustainable development groups, youth, every form and segment of society.

On Saturday afternoon four Canadian ministers had the opportunity to meet with twenty ministers from other countries in the hemisphere. At that meeting we discussed issues and responded to questions, all in the presence of the president of the World Bank, the president of the Inter-American Development Bank, the head of PAHO, and other leaders of multilateral institutions, including the president of the OAS.

This was an unparalleled and unprecedented opportunity for the engagement of civil society in the process, not as observers but as active interveners who had an opportunity to participate, to ask ministers questions, to have Mr. Zoellick from the United States respond, to have ministers from across the Caribbean and from the southern hemisphere respond to their questions and concerns.

At the post mortem follow up that we held to those meetings, we received an assurance from our government representatives that this process would continue. This was the first time that this has ever taken place, and I ask all colleagues to bear that in mind when they criticize. We are so critical all the time about everything.

The Canadian government led the way. We insisted on it. This was our summit. It was our government, our Prime Minister, our ministers who insisted among their colleagues that we should put this in place. I am confident that we have established a precedent now that will survive throughout the future. This is something that cannot be stopped. It is a wonderful precedent that we established this weekend and we should be celebrating. We should not be criticizing all the time, but we should be celebrating. We should also celebrate the fact that our government financed the people's summit.

I hope everyone in the Chamber thinks he or she is a member of civil society. As a member of parliament and as a member of civil society, which I think I am, I do not feel I am being left out of the process. I recognize that there are problems, that we can be better engaged and that we can change things. As the post mortem at which I participated on Sunday with our NGOs took place, everybody said they had an extraordinary experience. They said we could improve it.

Why do we not engage ourselves in the House in the process of approaching it from that constructive point of view? Why do we not seek to improve the process rather than constantly criticize it, as I hear from opposition members? They say that nothing good was achieved and that nothing is happening. However the average citizen looks out, sees improvements and wants us to work together to make it an even better system, not to sit here and carp and complain about the problems we have had to live with.

SupplyGovernment Orders

4:25 p.m.

NDP

Libby Davies NDP Vancouver East, BC

Mr. Speaker, I listened with interest to the hon. member's comments. I am not surprised to hear the member say that he does not feel left out of the process as a parliamentarian.

However it should be recognized that the member is the chair of the Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Trade. He is a part of the government and he is on the inside track.

When I talk with people in my riding and people who are out on the streets, they feel left out of the process. They know that this agreement is being negotiated behind the wall, behind the fence that people were protesting against, behind closed doors, and that it had been a very closed kind of environment.

If the Government of Canada has given an inch, it is only because of massive public pressure and opposition as well as pressure that the NDP has provided in the House unequivocally in its opposition to the FTAA. That is the nature of politics. It is because of that pressure that the government has been moving.

How could he consider that the so-called democracy clause is a huge advance when it is democracy on the basis of electing governments to do the bidding and the work for these huge corporations? That is what people object to. I do not understand why Liberal members do not understand that very fundamental point.