Debates of April 30th, 2001

Petitions

[Carol Skelton, Canadian Alliance, Saskatoon—Rosetown—Biggar, SK]

Mr. Speaker, today I wish to enter into the records of the House of Commons a petition from my constituents concerning the recent outbreak of foot and mouth disease in the United Kingdom.

The petitioners are asking that Canada restrict travel to the United Kingdom except for business or diplomatic purposes.

Questions On The Order Paper

[Derek Lee, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to Leader of the Government in the House of Commons]

Mr. Speaker, I ask that all questions be allowed to stand.

[The Speaker]

Is that agreed?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

(Bill C-16. On the Order: Government Orders)

March 15, 2001—The Solicitor General of Canada—Second reading and reference to the Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights of Bill C-16, an act respecting the registration of charities and security information and to amend the Income Tax Act.

Charities Registration (Security Information) Act

[Don Boudria, Liberal, for the Solicitor General of Canada]

Mr. Speaker, I move:

That Bill C-16, an act respecting the registration of charities and security information and to amend the Income Tax Act, be referred forthwith to the Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights.

[Lynn Myers, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to Solicitor General of Canada]

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to speak today to Bill C-16 which is an act designed to allow the government to use and protect classified security, criminal intelligence and information in denying or revoking the charitable status of an organization with terrorist affiliations.

Bill C-16 balances the government's need to protect classified information against the basic requirement to ensure fairness and transparency in assessing the status of registered charities or applicants for charitable status.

The objective is to prevent the abuse of the charity registration system now and in the future by those few organizations that would provide support to terrorism.

I would like to share with members a quick overview of the pressing challenges we as a government face, and indeed all Canadians, that makes this bill so essential in contributing to Canada's effort to combat terrorism and just as important to preserve the integrity of Canada's registered charities system, one of the country's greatest social strengths.

I would also like to briefly discuss the process by which Bill C-16 was developed, how it will work, its importance and benefit to Canadian society and public safety and how it integrates with broader efforts devoted to international security.

Bill C-16 responds directly to the 1999 report of the special Senate committee on security and intelligence which observed that groups with terrorist affiliations conduct fundraising activities in Canada often using benevolent or philanthropic organizations as fronts.

One of the report's key recommendations called for the Income Tax Act to be amended to allow Revenue Canada, as it was called then, to deny charitable registration to any group on the basis of a certificate from the Canadian Security Intelligence Service stating that the group constitutes a threat to the security of Canada.

We have also been listening to Canadians. We know that they look to the federal government in many ways, and in this way as well, to take a leadership role in remaining vigilant and ready to act to prevent terrorist activities from taking place in Canada.

We also know that Canadians want us to take any action that is appropriate and necessary to protect basic and core Canadian values. The legislation would help us address concerns expressed over the past few years by various ethnic groups, by the voluntary sector and by the Canadian public in general. The integrity and essential contributions of charitable organizations must be protected and maintained.

Canadians need to be assured that if they are approached to support a charitable organization, they can be confident that it is a bona fide organization.

The legislation allows the government to respond to threats to the public safety and national security of Canada and to other states stemming from front groups using charitable status to cloak in the blanket of legitimacy their activities in support of terrorism. We all know that terrorism is a global problem that ignores borders. That is why Canada is and must be committed to working globally to fight it. For this reason, Canada works in a wide range of international fora to encourage both the collective condemnation of terrorism and effective, practical action against it.

Over the last number of years a series of G-8 communiques and declarations and United Nations conventions and resolutions have addressed the issue of terrorism and more specifically the financing of terrorism. These international statements and agreements depend on action by Canada and other partner countries to give them life.

Starting in 1995 with the Ottawa ministerial declaration on countering terrorism, G-8 countries agreed to: share intelligence and technical knowledge; share information on terrorist organizations and terrorist incidents; share expertise on the protection of public buildings; and improve procedures for tracing and tracking suspected terrorists. At the same time they agreed to pursue measures aimed at depriving terrorists of their sources of funding.

In February of last year Canada was one of the first countries, and we should be proud of this, to sign the international convention for the suppression of the financing of terrorism. Canada has been a vigorous advocate in this area.

Terrorism is not new to the modern world. What is new is the magnitude of the terrorist activities undertaken by groups to further their goals through indiscriminate violence and destruction. The tools of terrorism cost money. Many terrorist organizations have devised unscrupulous methods of finding the money they need. This bill will put a stop to one of those methods, that being the use of charitable tax receipts to help support the use of violence in pursuit of a political objective.

Canadians want a charity system that can be trusted and is not open to abuse. They want a system and legislation that strikes a balance between the need for transparency and the need to deal firmly and effectively with those who would seek to abuse the system.

The bill therefore carries a dual mandate, closing the back door through which organizations supporting terrorist groups are subsidized by Canadian taxpayers, while at the same time ensuring that the standards of procedural fairness enshrined in the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms are met.

There is currently a judicial process in place to review applications for charitable status or to revoke charitable status for those organizations that do not meet the requirements of the Income Tax Act. The classified information is not used in the current process since disclosure of such information would damage national security. A special legislative regime is needed to allow this information to be used, and that is precisely what the bill provides.

The process outlined in this bill is based on the immigration act and has withstood scrutiny by the courts. A certificate based on security and criminal intelligence information is issued by the Minister of National Revenue and the Solicitor General of Canada. Both ministers review the information separately and independently. The certificate is then reviewed by a judge of the Federal Court of Canada who in turn determines if the certificate issued by the ministers is reasonable or should be quashed. Sensitive intelligence information is reviewed by the judge and a summary of that information is provided to the applicant for charitable status or the registered charity, as the case may be.

The organization is entitled to legal counsel and to a hearing at which evidence may be presented. It is only after the certificate has been confirmed by a judge that the Canada Customs and Revenue Agency would deny or revoke charitable status.

The certificate is valid for a period of three years. However it can be cancelled within that three year period if the organization presents new information which supports a conclusion that its resources are no longer being used to support terrorism.

The Speech From the Throne confirmed the government's intentions and commitment to further provide the necessary tools to fight terrorism. The bill is one of the tools the Government of Canada requires to wage the battle effectively. Canada is a country built on diversity. Our strength is based on diversity. In order for Canada to continue to grow and flourish it is important that our diverse nature be recognized and accepted.

The bill reinforces a clear message of the government that the use of violence to perpetuate conflicts is inconsistent with the values of a tolerant multicultural society which is Canada.

Some will say the bill does not go far enough. They will say we need to do more to combat terrorist fundraising in Canada. Let me say on behalf of the government that clearly there we agree. That is why Canada was one of the first countries to sign the UN convention last year. Our commitment is clear. We will fulfill our international obligations and will do so in accordance with Canadian values.

The bill is an important and necessary step. That is why we are here to debate it today. This small but necessary step in our fight against terrorism and the support of terrorism through fundraising is very important.

I hope we can look forward to the support of all parties on this very important piece of legislation. After all it is what Canada is all about.

[Randy White, Canadian Alliance, Langley—Abbotsford, BC]

Mr. Speaker, the member opposite virtually wrote a part of my speech. He pre-empted some of the comments I was going to make.

When talking about funding terrorist organizations, it is very interesting that the Liberal government says that the bill is a small but necessary step. As for terrorism in any country, it should not be dealt with by a small and necessary step.

The bill is supposed to provide a mechanism for denying registration as charities under the Income Tax Act to organizations that raise funds for terrorists.

One would think that with the large bureaucracy and with all the members of parliament in the House of Commons, the government would come up with a more efficient way to fight terrorism than merely dealing with a comprehensive approach, through a federal court judge, of denying registration as a charity.

What will the people in Canada think of that kind of step where the government says that, yes, we have a severe problem with terrorists being funded from funds raised in Canada and what we will do is deny registration as a charity if it goes through a whole bunch of processes?

Surely Canadians are expecting more than this from a government. What more could the government do? I did not hear anything about the Immigration Act. There was casual mention of it. What about application of the Immigration Act to many people who are involved in terrorism in this country? If an organization is suspected of dealing with terrorist activities, then surely the people within that organization are suspect. What proposal is being made for deportation of non-citizens, if that is the case, within the Immigration Act?

What proposal is made under the criminal code for those citizens within Canada who are involved in terrorism? What proposal is being made through the criminal code for wire tapping? Right now it takes about 1,500 pages to fill out the application and approval for a wire tap when approximately eight years ago it took about five pages.

What I am saying is that this is a feeble attempt, at the very best, to deal with terrorism in our country.

The member opposite said that if a group constituted a threat to the security of Canada, then the government would take a lot of action. It would file through a federal court judge to make sure that an association, with which an individual or individuals were involved, could have its certificate removed as a registered charity. It is hard to believe that a government could come up with this kind of approach.

There are things that can be done about terrorism such as simplifying the procedures for obtaining wiretaps and providing more resources for the RCMP, CSIS and for organizations involved in the prevention and apprehension of those involved in terrorism and organized crime. We should define what a terrorist group constitutes, just as we were supposed to define what an organized crime gang in law was and failed to do so.

It is hard to get enthusiastic with the registration of a charity and the refusal or removal of that when we are dealing with such a large issue as organized crime or terrorism. Where I come from it is hard to believe that the triads, who possibly are involved in terrorism, would be overly concerned about losing their registration as a charitable organization. Quite frankly they deal in tax free dollars. It is called revenue from drug sales, prostitution, embezzlement, money laundering, all illegal activities. I hardly think they would be concerned with their charitable organization certification being removed.

I have been involved in looking at the issues in criminal justice for my entire time in the House of Commons. I asked time and time again for policies and legislation to be tabled in the House which were meaningful, which would do something constructive, which would help reduce the importation and the traffic of drugs and which would stop the problems with sexual exploitation of children and others.

What I get back in return are solutions like this. It is hard to believe that people watching television today and listening to this discussion will have a lot of confidence in the Government of Canada when it says that it will fix this terrible problem of terrorism, that it may remove charitable organization certification and that it may not allow them to get tax free status for the money they send to other countries.

Can they honestly believe that members of parliament are actually debating this bill? Would they not prefer to hear that in cases of organized crime and terrorism we will deal with it in a different manner? They just have to listen to the speeches today and ask themselves if this will deal with the problems related to terrorism in Canada?

Would the proposal adequately stop or hinder terrorism or in any way put somebody in jail for being involved in terrorism? No, it would not. It says people would not get tax free dollars by way of a tax receipt, a tax receipt for which they did not pay tax for in the first place.

I not only question the bill but I question the sincerity of the government. I question the ability of the government to comprehend the serious nature of the problem that we are dealing with. If people watching television today think I am wrong, they should listen to the speeches from the other side. This is the effective action that the government will take on terrorism.

I ask everybody watching to write letters to the House of Commons, to the solicitor general, to me as the solicitor general critic and to state whether or not they believe that the way to fight terrorism is, in the words of the Liberals, to fight what constitutes a threat to the security of Canada. Or, is it what I described? Is it denying the registration of charities under the Income Tax Act?

I rest my case. This is not only ineffective but it shows a lack of comprehension of what the real problems are with organized crime and terrorism in Canada.

[Pierrette Venne, Bloc, Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, QC]

Mr. Speaker, the bill respecting the registration of charities and security information and to amend the Income Tax Act seeks to counter activities in support of terrorism as provided under the convention on the financing of terrorism which was approved by the United Nations.

Through its bill, the government wants to counter terrorism by preventing supporters of terrorism from engaging in fundraising or the transfer of money and materiel abroad.

The bill seeks to deny support to terrorist activities and to protect the integrity of the charity registration process through the fair and transparent use, to the extent that it is possible, of confidential information that could jeopardize national and human security.

Concretely, this bill seeks to prevent organizations that are related to terrorist groups from obtaining the status of charities. This should help reduce the funding of terrorist activities. The legislation would, among other things, facilitate the use of confidential information to determine the eligibility for registration as a charity or to revoke the registration of a registered charity.

It is interesting to note that the minister does not define what he means by "terrorism" even though the purpose of the bill is precisely to counter the funding of organizations that engage in such activities. Such an omission can of course lead to a broad or liberal interpretation of the term. This means that in a highly politicized context there is always a potential risk of abuse.

In that perspective, we have no guarantee that the criteria used for interpretation purposes will allow us to distinguish between the funding of legitimate activities, such as political protest, and that of violent activities. The word "terrorism" must be thoroughly defined.

As for the judicial review of the certificate, while the procedure is relatively simple, it does raise some concerns. First, the Canadian Security Intelligence Service will inform the solicitor general and the Minister of National Revenue that it has come to the conclusion that an organization is fundraising to finance terrorist activities.

On the basis of that notice the ministers can then start procedures to prevent that organization from getting the status of charity or to revoke its registration.

Given that this process is set in motion by an administrative notice to the political arm, which then issues a certificate, we feel that this approach is flawed by the absence of any possibility of judicial control.

As a result, the impossibility of filing an appeal places any organization faced with such a procedure at the mercy of errors or political and judicial administrative abuses which might arise from excessive alarmism. Knowing that CSIS practices are not above reproach, we are concerned.

In addition, there is the absence of control mentioned earlier. What reasons could the organization give for purposes of control or appeal, when it is not entitled to know the information giving rise to the certificate?

But there is no objection to giving it information which does not pose a threat to national security. In other words, it will be given information which is not really relevant because the denial or revocation of charitable status will be based on information which could pose a threat to national security.

Finally, the only procedural guarantee the organization is allowed is the audi alteram partem rule. But one might wonder just how useful that is since the organization will not have access to the facts and the reasons for the certificate being issued.

The section on evidence raises equally important concerns. First, under a procedure provided for in the bill a judge will be able to allow evidence regardless of its admissibility.

By disregarding specific rules of evidence the government is ignoring the contradictory nature of our judicial system. The bill would institute an inquisitional procedure which is unacceptable in a free and democratic society.

As we have only ten or so minutes each, I will skip over a few of my remarks and go to the heart of the issue.

We wonder how anyone could possibly think an accused would have the impression that justice had been done. For that to be the case, there would at least have to be the appearance of justice. The whole thing is hard to verify, when the evidence is revealed in camera, in the absence of the principal parties. It can be said therefore that in the case before us the procedure stands out because of its almost total lack of transparency.

The organization mentioned in a certificate will be able to apply for a review by showing that a material change has occurred in circumstances since the determination. This is an interesting possibility since the organization is permitted to mend its ways.

However, if we consider the problems raised previously it seems to me uncertain that an organization can prove this. In order to prove reform, a party must know the allegations against it.

Once the ministers have given their decision, the organization will have all the time in the world to apply to the federal court to review the decision. Once again this possibility appears to accord certain procedural guarantees.

Unfortunately, this is not entirely the case. In fact, the ministers do not seem to have to give reasons for the decision that is to be reviewed. In addition, the federal court will review the decision only if it was given under subclause 10(5)( b ) of the bill, that is, if the circumstances have changed but the certificate continues to have effect.

This implies therefore that when the ministers conclude that the situation has not changed materially, the federal court does not have real review power. In such a case it can only quash the decision on the grounds that the circumstances have materially changed and return the file to the ministers for another determination. In this way, there is no real control because the file goes back to those who made the original determination.

The aim of this bill is most worthy, but the means to achieving it are dubious. At the moment, as it is written it snags on too many principles of justice to be passed in its present form. The committee will have to improve it significantly, otherwise, it would set a dangerous precedent in terms of the violation of procedural guarantees.

Some will say that charities may be a disguise for terrorist organizations. Even if they are right, I do not believe the right thing is being targeted. It is somewhat absurd to think that the supporters of terrorist organizations want to take advantage of tax credits.

One may even wonder to what extent this bill is not a roundabout way of enabling the minister to control taxation. It must be kept in mind that terrorism is not financed exclusively through charitable organizations. Although the government is attempting to show that it is taking concrete actions against terrorism, with this bill it is opting for facility rather than really attacking the source of the problem.

In actual fact, all it is doing is making sure that tax receipts cannot be issued for financing terrorist activities.

I agree is a very real phenomenon and we must help fight it. On the other hand, do we need to recreate psychoses such as there were in the era of fear of the communist threat, or worse still, go back to the era of the Inquisition and its search for heretics? I think not.

I believe it would be far more effective for the criminal code to properly address the financing of criminal activities for this would focus directly on those involved in such acts.

In short, to conclude, Bill C-16 could be summarized as follows: suspicion, discretionary power, enigmatic proof, and lack of control.

[Bill Blaikie, NDP, Winnipeg—Transcona, MB]

Mr. Speaker, thank you for the opportunity to speak briefly to the referral of Bill C-16 to committee. It is a procedure that is not used all that often.

Bill C-16 is a bill which is well suited to this kind of examination in committee before second reading so that no parties in the House, and particularly the government, find themselves committed to any particular position on the bill. It leaves the way open for members on the committee to explore all the various concerns that a great many people have expressed about the bill.

Having listened to the Parliamentary Secretary to the Solicitor General, it seemed to me that he made a speech that was more appropriate for a traditional second reading debate in which he vigorously defended the bill and the government's position on the bill. That is not what should be happening now. The bill is going to committee before second reading presumably because the government has some sense that there are things which need to be looked at before any final commitment on the part of the government is made to the passage of the bill.

There would be an opportunity for people to come forward, as they have been doing through correspondence to various members of parliament, particularly those associated with this file, and express their concerns on the record before the committee.

Another bill which may be suited to this kind of process would be a bill that the government could bring forward having to do with workplace safety and changes to the criminal code with respect to the charging of companies or individuals of companies responsible for the death of workers on the job through corporate negligence.

I am referring to a bill that existed in the last parliament that was sometimes called the Westray bill. Our party was pushing that bill in the last parliament, particularly our leader, the hon. member for Halifax. We were urging the government to act on that particular issue.

It would seem to me if the Minister of Justice, as she has said to me, wants to hear from more Canadians, if she is not prepared to act on the Westray file at this moment, that bringing forward a piece of legislation and referring it to committee before second reading so that more people could be heard on that particular subject would be a good idea.

I make no apologies for using the opportunity when we are employing that process with respect to Bill C-16 to say that there are other issues which are equally important and which I think the government should act on by using this particular process. One of them could certainly be acting on the Westray file, that is to say, changing the criminal code in such a way that the kind of activity that led to that particular tragedy would be the kind of activity that could be gone after much more efficiently than it can be gone after now.

With respect to Bill C-16, there is no need to speak at great length about the bill. We want to see it go to committee. I would say that the government should be open, as I think I already know it is, as to whether or not it finally should go to the justice and human rights committee because the justice and human rights committee is a very busy committee. We have Bill C-7, the youth criminal justice act, Bill C-15, the omnibus amendments to the criminal code and the organized crime bill, and there will be more. I would hope the government would consider whether or not at some point, perhaps in discussion with House leaders, if we could agree to send this bill for this kind of an examination to some other committee, a committee that can do it sooner. It is not because we do not want to do it in the justice committee, but perhaps we could agree to send it to some other committee whose calendar of work would permit it to do this earlier.

Surely all Canadians would agree that if this is a problem that needs to be addressed then it should be addressed sooner rather than later. I put it on the record that we should look at perhaps where we might refer this bill for this kind of study. We could always change it by unanimous consent.

A number of groups have already expressed concern about the bill, but I will say briefly that we in the NDP support the principle of the bill, which is that taxpayers should not be funding, surreptitiously or innocently by virtue of deception any particular organization or terrorism activity either here or in any other country.

If my understanding of the bill is correct, I think what the government has in mind here is terrorism abroad. When I listened to the Alliance spokesperson complain that the bill does not fight terrorism in the many ways that he thinks it should, he may be right that there are other things the government could be doing to fight terrorism, but the bill is directed toward amendments that need to be made to the charities act.

In fairness to the government, we could say that it should be doing this, that and the other thing, and that all may be true, but the bill itself, it seems to me, zeros in on a particular problem and that is, how can we prevent the Canadian taxpayer from subsidizing terrorism through the charities act? How can we do that in a way that does not interfere with the legitimate activities of a great many charities which may in fact be configured in relationship, not necessarily to another country or to a cause in another country, but configured culturally or ethnically in a way that leaves them open to that suspicion or may in fact, depending on what is actually the case, leave them open to being used in that particular way?

Many of the groups that would fall into that category have a legitimate concern, I think, that they not be dragged through a process in which, even if at the end of that process they are found to be innocent, they would nevertheless have expended a great deal of time, energy and perhaps reputation in defending themselves against that charge. How can we balance that concern with the very real concern that some organizations may actually be or may be tempted to be or may in the past have been or may in the future act in such a way that the moneys which Canadians give to them, which are tax deductible, are used in some way or another for terrorism?

I will end by saying that one of the things we need to keep in mind while trying to find this balance is that we also need to do a lot more critical thinking about what constitutes terrorism, particularly when we are talking about terrorism abroad, which is mostly the kind of terrorism we are talking about. It is sometimes a very political matter what is defined as terrorism, which is obviously unacceptable, and what is defined as resistance or legitimate rebellion or whatever.

One is reminded of a time in the House when one left oneself open to very severe criticism if one spoke in any sort of supportive way of the African National Congress and the anti-apartheid movement. Yet there were acts of violence associated with the anti-apartheid movement and the African National Congress within South Africa. Would that have meant in the context of this bill that anti-apartheid groups in Canada who were raising money for the cause of anti-apartheid in South Africa could have been dragged through the process that this bill lays out?

I ask that question because it is a legitimate concern. The task of the committee will be to address that concern while at the same time respecting the principle of the bill that Canadian taxpayers should not be funding terrorism.

[Peter MacKay, Progressive Conservative, Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough, NS]

Mr. Speaker, I as well am pleased to have an opportunity to put a few remarks on the record with respect to Bill C-16, which is a very important piece of legislation dealing with charitable organizations and regulations that relate to fundraising activities in Canada. I could not agree more with my hon. colleague from Winnipeg—Transcona that the process in which we are pursuing this matter is a very important part of the debate.

The Westray issue in particular is something of great interest to me as this tragedy occurred in Plymouth, Nova Scotia in the constituency of Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough. There was an unusual coming together of members of parliament on that issue of workplace safety and the broader implications that exist for those who can be injured in the workplace. We saw this past weekend recognition in a day of memorial, a day of remembering those who died in the workplace. We should be renewing our efforts in that regard as well.

To speak specifically to this issue, this is a piece of legislation that puts in place a judicial process by which the government would be able to deny charitable status to any group found to be supporting terrorist activity. Much of this, I suggest, will have to be fleshed out in terms of the organizational definition and the definition of terrorist activities, yet it is certainly a step in the right direction. It is a positive initiative which the Progressive Conservative Party will support in this initial stage.

This legislation is long overdue. The Conservative Party has been very consistent in calling upon the government to act in this direction to curtail terrorist activity in Canada. We qualify this support, realizing once again that the government tried to initially deal with this problem through avoidance. Since that did not work it has been literally shamed into bringing forward this legislation, which sadly does not go quite far enough. It is a typical legislative half measure. The support of our party therefore will hinge on our ability to bring forward amendments and to delve into greater detail at the committee level.

It is important that we send a message of deterrence and a message that rings throughout the country that this type of terrorist activity funding and enhancing of terrorist causes will not be perpetrated in Canada and will not be tolerated by government or by law enforcement communities. Other western countries have enacted similar legislation so Canada is following the leader in a sense. It is certainly important that ethnic Canadians are not coerced unknowingly into becoming charitable fronts for terrorist fundraising activities.

Canadians are a magnanimous people by nature. I know that in your part of the world in Kingston, Mr. Speaker, that could not be more true. Canadians generally want to give. They want to reach out and help. My colleague from Cumberland—Colchester raised the issue today of the need to do more to help other countries and to do more for the African AIDS epidemic where so many millions of people are suffering from this horrible disease.

Meanwhile we need to have some safeguards to ensure that these causes are genuine and that these fundraising activities are those in which the most amount of aid and assistance will actually be obtained by those groups. We need to ensure that in our effort to combat terrorism, legislation does not unfairly target legitimate, peaceful, law abiding fundraising groups, especially those fundraising groups of different ethnic backgrounds that engage in very valuable fundraising activities or initiatives for the betterment of their communities.

I am hopeful that we will be able to produce legislation that will improve public safety for the country and meet this balance that is required while not trampling on the rights of those who are in some instances very vulnerable citizens in this country and are making very legitimate efforts to try to assist those from their originating countries in their plight.

Bill C-16 sets up a process by which organizations supporting terrorist activities could be denied or lose their charitable status. If the solicitor general and the minister of revenue, after reviewing security and criminal intelligence reports, have reasonable grounds to believe that an organization makes or will make resources available to terrorism, they both would be required to sign a certificate. The organization would then be given notice of this certificate and the matter would be referred automatically to the federal court for a judicial review. The applicant would have the opportunity to apply to the federal court to have its identity protected and a judicial process would then occur.

The federal court could and would provide the applicant with an opportunity to introduce evidence, call witnesses and cross-examine in a public forum. This is a very important process in getting to the root of the allegation if the group is suspected of being involved in terrorist activity and fundraising.

This process would allow for the review and the classification in camera, and the judge would then provide the organization with a summary of the classified information produced. The summary would contain sufficient information to allow the organization to respond but would also exclude information that the judge has determined would be injurious to national security and the safety of persons. There is a fairly indepth and comprehensive process there to protect the rights of those involved. Confidentiality is often very critical in the integrity of the process, but to be very blunt, it is often a matter of life and death. These terrorist groups are very ruthless in their activities, and the repercussions and the revenge factor are certainly real.

If confirmed, the certificate would then be valid for three years and the judge's decision would be final and not available for or subject to appeal. However there is a provision for review if there is a change in the material circumstances of the organization.

All of this is to say that Bill C-16 provides a very good starting point. However some of this process is going to have to be worked through and more detail put in place.

Terrorists often look outside their borders. That is clear. Canada, because of the financial and material resources that exist here, is very much a target of terrorist organizations. Over the past number of years the approach to terrorism, I would strongly suggest, has been inadequate and has allowed, to a large extent, terrorist fundraising activities to thrive and to flourish in Canada. The regrettable result is that terrorist organizations have been able to exert their influence over and even infiltrate some very legitimate operating Canadian organizations that already have charitable status.

Recently we have seen concern raised over the charitable organization known as the Federation of Associations of Canadian Tamils, FACT, which has been identified by federal lawyers as a front for the known terrorist organization, the Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelam. Justice department lawyers have said that the Tamil Tigers engaged in torture, mistreatment of prisoners, summary executions, ethnic cleansing of Muslims and kidnapping and forcible conscription of children, all absolutely abhorrent activities. I am sure that some who may have contributed to this organization would be appalled to think that their money went to that organization for those purposes.

We have seen similar fundraising activities that play upon the emotions and the passions of Irish Canadians. For many years in this country we have seen Irish Republican Army activists who have tried to raise money for what turned out to be explosives or weaponry that was used to perpetrate their cause. That cause is thankfully now through due to the peace process and to negotiations in Northern Ireland and is moving in a very positive direction.

It needs to be stated that Canadian Tamils have made valuable contributions to the country. The fact that the particular organization is one of several political and benevolent front organizations that support a terrorist organization has resulted in a great deal of controversy in the House of Commons. It demonstrated the reach of such terrorist organizations into what seemed to be a well intentioned charitable group. It is also a reminder to Canadians of the care that must be taken and the background checks that must be made before any well intentioned person decides to aid in an effort of a charitable group.

Donations to a charity qualify for tax credits which reduce federal taxes by 17% for the first $200 of eligible donations and 29% of the balance to a limit of 75% of income. Such donations also reduce provincial taxes.

The legislation is positive in its direction. The difficulty is that police often have trouble making the connection between a charitable organization and the terrorist front that is being used for that purpose. Fundraising fronts usually take care to commit no crime in this country and police can currently only lay charges of conspiracy if a direct connection can be established.

There is much work to be done in this area. The United Nations General Assembly adopted the international convention for the suppression of the financing of terrorism, but Bill C-16 falls somewhat short of Canada's obligations under that convention. Other countries such as the United States and Great Britain make it completely illegal to provide material support or resources for any group that the government has found to be a terrorist organization.

Canada can learn from the example of other countries. We have an opportunity to improve the legislation and we hope that we would have the opportunity to do that in the justice committee. There may be some need to refer the bill to another committee, but wherever it goes we would be looking to improve it.

[Martin Cauchon, Liberal, Minister of National Revenue and Secretary of State (Economic Development Agency of Canada for the Regions of Quebec)]

Mr. Speaker, I am very pleased to address Bill C-16, which I am introducing jointly with my colleague the solicitor general.

Charities play a critical role in the achievement of goals, both here and abroad, that Canadians deem important. Charities provide humanitarian assistance in times of crisis. They promote the building of civil society in developing countries. They provide help to the needy and they work to respond to social concerns and problems.

To recognize this and to encourage Canadians to support charitable activities, the Income Tax Act grants significant tax privileges to charities. Charities are accountable for how they use donations. They hold the public trust and they depend on public confidence.

The bill provides the legal means to deal with any suspected abuse of charitable status by terrorist supporters who try to use charities to disguise their activities.

This bill will also guarantee that tax privileges granted to registered charities are provided only to organizations that engage in charitable activities under the Income Tax Act. Above all, it will guarantee to Canadians that their donations to registered charities in Canada will be used for legitimate purposes.

As members know, the tax incentive related to gifts to charities is administered under the charities registration process. These legislative provisions and the registration process administered by the Canada Customs and Revenue Agency are evidence of the clear intention of parliament to support, through the tax system, activities conducted for charitable purposes under Canadian legislation.

In Canada, as in other common law jurisdictions, the courts have been very clear that the pursuit of political objectives falls outside the legal bounds of charity. Any organization that operates in whole or in part to support political aims and objectives would not be eligible to receive charitable status for income tax purposes.

The use of violence or the threat of violence to achieve a political aim, regardless of the cause concerned, cannot be reconciled with the legal concept of charity. The bill before us today addresses very serious international concerns about terrorist activities.

Canada as a nation and Canadians individually do not and cannot tolerate terrorist activities. In order to maintain public trust in the treatment of charitable organizations, the government must ensure that the tax privileges available to such organizations do not benefit any organizations using violence to attain their goals.

Certain organizations which condone acts of terrorism are also involved in humanitarian assistance and community development programs. They may therefore attempt to make a distinction between that part of the organization which engages in terrorism and that part which provides humanitarian services.

This bill makes it impossible to sanitize a terrorist organization merely by keeping humanitarian activities separate from terrorist activities on the organization chart. It is naive to think that the purpose of these groups' assistance activities can be kept separate from their use of violence to attain their political goals, unless the intention is to deceive.

This bill makes it clear that Canada will not tolerate the abuse of our democratic system and institutions to promote and fund terrorism. We will not allow terrorists to obtain charity status by concealing their terrorist operations behind charitable activities.

Canada is not the only country to take steps to prevent terrorist organizations from passing themselves off as legitimate charities. In July 1996 all of the G-8 countries made a commitment “to take steps to prevent or counteract, through appropriate domestic measures, the financing of terrorists and terrorist organizations, whether such financing is direct or indirect through organizations which also have or claim to have charitable, social or cultural goals”.

The legislation is part of Canada's response to this international concern. It is not the total solution. It addresses only the issue of tax incentives that are being provided to organizations whose activities are not consistent with the concept of charity.

Such provisions do however indicate a step in the right direction. As confirmed by the report presented in 1999 by the special senate committee on security and intelligence, taxation measures applicable to charitable organizations are exposed to the possibility of abuse.

The committee pointed out that a variety of groups with terrorist affiliations are carrying out fundraising activities in Canada and that benevolent or philanthropic organizations often serve as fronts for fundraising.

The report specifically points out that such groups use the status of registered charity under the Income Tax Act to enhance their credibility. It also suggests that Canadian taxpayers may be unwittingly supporting violent political actions by these groups through donations they believed were going to provide humanitarian aid.

This is unacceptable. Canadians have every right to expect that registered charities are charitable as the term is understood by the law. We have a clear onus to ensure the integrity of the system and to take whatever steps are necessary to see that the legislative framework for the system guards against abuse.

This is what the bill does. It protects the registration of charities by providing recourse to secret information, to security information, relevant to the determination of a charity's right to receive donations providing tax relief. To this end, it in fact creates a parallel appeal process.

The automatic judicial review process will be used only when the solicitor general and the national revenue minister take steps to revoke or refuse a registration on the grounds that donations are being used to support acts of terrorism.

The proposed process will make it possible to consider all information relevant to national security in determining the status of the charity, while protecting from inappropriate disclosure delicate information on national security. The rules currently in effect requiring full public disclosure will continue to apply in all other appeals.

This bill demonstrates the government's commitment to building Canadians' trust in the voluntary sector and in the integrity of our tax administration. This is a step that should be welcomed by all concerned about our charity registration system.

To close, we cannot and will not neglect our responsibility to all Canadians to ensure tax measures relating to charitable organizations are respected and may be controlled.

This is the very foundation of public trust in tax measures applying to charities. This trust is fragile and must be protected. The bill realizes this objective.

[Gurmant Grewal, Canadian Alliance, Surrey Central, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to participate in the debate on behalf of the constituents of Surrey Central to send Bill C-16 to committee before second reading.

The legislation is the Liberal government's feeble attempt to prevent terrorist groups from obtaining charitable tax status. The solicitor general has tabled a grandiose scheme to try to prevent undesirables from setting up shop in Canada to raise money to overthrow a foreign government or for oppressive violent activities.

Money is often raised by force, with the threat of personal injury or death. We know that approximately 26 groups have charitable tax free status in our country thanks to the weak Liberal government that lacks vision and backbone. It is trying to pass some kind of multi-step program to slowly revoke the bogus charitable status of terrorist groups operating in Canada.

I will briefly describe the multi-step process set out in the bill that would lead to the denial of charitable status. First, the RCMP and CSIS would inform the Solicitor General of Canada and the Minister of National Revenue of an organization's suspected provision of resources to a terrorist group. If the ministers conclude that the organization makes or would make resources available for terrorism, these ministers would then sign a certificate to that effect.

Once the certificate is signed, the organization would be notified and the certificate would be referred to a federal court judge. The judge would review the intelligence reports in private and would provide a summary to the organization. If the judge upholds the certificate the organization would lose its charitable status for three years, subject to a review if there has been a change in material circumstances to the organization. Finally there would be no appeal of the judge's decision. That is the good news.

The impact of the bill is unlikely to be major. The process is sufficiently complicated that the first designation will probably not be made until years have lapsed. Provisions for in camera hearings are necessary to protect intelligence sources and methods. There are no such provisions in the bill.

Canada is obligated, pursuant to a United Nations convention, to make it a criminal offence to raise funds for terrorists. However the government is not serious about fighting crime or preventing terrorists from using bogus charitable status to raise taxpayer dollars to finance their schemes.

Recently I met with representatives from the Canadian Association for a United Sri Lanka. We discussed the United Nations international convention for the suppression of the financing of terrorism. The individuals I met pointed out that while many countries are expected to support the convention, at least 22 countries must ratify it before it can come into effect. So far only two countries have ratified it and I hope more will do so.

In the bill the government is doing nothing to stop criminals or terrorists from raising funds in Canada for terrorist activities. About a year ago two cabinet ministers attended a fundraiser in support of the Tamil Tigers in contravention of warnings from the U.S. state department, the high commission in Sri Lanka, CSIS and the RCMP. This demonstrated the Canadian government's lack of seriousness about fighting terrorism. It is only interested in doing what is politically expedient.

Canadian taxpayers are assisting the funding of terrorist activities because the money raised by these bogus charitable status organizations is subsidized by the taxpayer. Even if the tax status were removed, however, would the government stop these organizations from raising funds in Canada? I do not think so. There is nothing about that in the bill. It is a violation of the UN convention.

Let us look at the activities of the finance minister and the international development minister. They attended a questionable fundraising event. Article 2, section 5 of the United Nations international convention for the suppression of the financing of terrorism says:

Any person also commits an offence if that person:

(a) Participates in an offence...

(b) Organizes or directs others to commit an offence...

(c) Contributes to the commission of one or more offences...

The two cabinet ministers could be charged under this section of the UN convention.

The shameful case of Ahmed Ressam should set off alarm bells and signify to the government how weak and ineffective it is at fighting terrorism. This was a textbook case of a terrorist who was arrested crossing the border from Canada to the United States on December 14, 1999. Ressam had plans, the ability and the material to commit a bombing in the United States.

The details of this man's life for the previous five years have come out at his trial in the U.S. where he was convicted on all nine indictments against him. The case reads like an indictment of the Liberal government. Canada has no laws against terrorism thanks to a weak Liberal government which lacks vision, a backbone and the political will to combat terrorism.

Ressam, like other terrorists, took advantage of our lax refugee and immigration system. He arrived in Montreal in 1994 and claimed refugee status at the airport, describing himself as a suspected Islamic terrorist. He was fingerprinted, and guess what? He was set free.

He collected welfare for most of the five years. He was not deported after he was arrested for theft. Later he was arrested for pickpocketing elderly women and set free again. He was arrested for stealing luggage and set free again.

He failed to show up at his refugee hearing in 1995 and the refugee board concluded that he had abandoned his claim. Rather than deporting him at that stage, the board allowed him to appeal that decision in 1996 and he was set free again.

He then changed his identity and got a Canadian passport. Let us imagine a terrorist getting a Canadian passport. Then he got a social insurance card and a Quebec driver's licence and began to travel the world, pursuing terrorist training outside Canada that included an association with Bin Laden.

In 1999 French government representatives tried to get into Canada to interview Ressam but was not allowed in until October. After October they immediately got the goods on the guy by searching his apartment in Montreal, although Ressam was nowhere to be found.

Finally he showed up. He showed up trying to get into the U.S. in December and was arrested. The world is disappointed in Canada. What would have happened if Ressam had been arrested in Canada? He would have received a maximum of ten years, of which only two would be spent in jail. Having been convicted in the U.S. he will now spend one hundred years in jail.

In conclusion, after years of the Reform Party and now the Canadian Alliance fighting for tougher laws to combat gangs, criminal activities and terrorist organizations, the Liberal government has finally introduced some of the legislation we have been calling for. However the weak Liberal government that lacks the political will to get tough on crime, particularly organized crime and terrorism, has only done so under pressure from the opposition, the United Nations, the public, the RCMP and CSIS.

Combating organized crime and terrorism was part of the Alliance justice platform. However the bill is a feeble attempt by the government to address the issue. It will be ineffective and lengthy and will lead nowhere. It is not enough. It is not the giant step that is needed. We will therefore be opposing the legislation.

[Sophia Leung, Liberal, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

Mr. Speaker, Canada is proud to be a multicultural nation of peace and tolerance. Canadians value and respect diversity. Our charter of rights and freedoms is a model for the world which reflects Canada's commitment to human rights. The bill reflects core Canadian values and is fully consistent with our fundamental charter principle of fairness and due process under the law.

The bill focuses very narrowly on terrorism and on organizations that may improperly use charitable status in Canada to raise funds to support terrorism. The bill includes many safeguards, including provisions that allow organizations to regain charitable status by demonstrating that they no longer support terrorism and that their activities are fully consistent with charitable status.

The bill recognizes that Canadians have the right to engage in political activity. They have the right to make their views known in ways that are accepted in a free and democratic society, through advocacy, protest and dissent. They have a right to finance groups and support political causes.

Nothing in the bill interferes with those rights for any Canadian. What the bill does is set a clear standard for public policy. It draws a line between the exercise of rights and the abuse of charitable status to cover support for terrorism.

No civilized society can condone terrorism. By taking steps to prevent the abuse of charitable tax status Canada is supporting the international campaign to stop support for terrorism.

The bill would also help eliminate the suspicions and innuendo that produce tension based on racial, ethnic, religious or national differences. Allegations and suspicions would be dealt with based on facts. We want to be able to assure Canadians that an organization that has charitable status uses the funds it raises for charitable purposes.

Some have argued that legislation should focus on individuals rather than on organizations. They argue that organizations may be unaware of the true agenda of individuals who are using them to support terrorism. However it is organizations, not individuals, that are registered as charities. Charitable organizations have an obligation under the Income Tax Act to maintain direction and control over how their resources are used.

Others have suggested that the proposed process may be unfairly influenced by unreliable and politically motivated information from foreign governments that do not share Canada's commitment to human rights.

I have confidence in our system of parliamentary democracy and judicial independence. Canadians can be assured our laws would be administered fairly and, when required, interpreted in a fair and just manner by our courts. The process would be open and transparent so that all Canadians could judge for themselves.

In addition, every stage of the proposed process would be driven by hard facts. Risk factors used to identify suspicious cases would be based on facts documented in security and intelligence reports. When a concern is identified, Canadian security agencies would be asked to determine if there is a strong and credible case. Only then would the facts be presented to the Solicitor General of Canada and the Minister of National Revenue for separate, independent reviews.

The case would not proceed further unless each minister agreed there were reasonable grounds to believe the organization was providing support for terrorism. The ministerial review requirement would impose a significant level of political accountability before any case was presented to the courts or any public comments were made.

The next step would be to subject the facts to an independent and rigorous judicial review. Before that took place however the organization would be allowed to seek an order from the court directing that its identity be protected during the proceedings to avoid undue harm to its reputation.

A federal court judge would prepare a summary of the facts contained in national security documents. The summary would protect sensitive information but would enable the organization to be reasonably informed of the circumstances causing the government to consider refusing or revoking charitable status.

An open hearing would then be held at which the organization would have the opportunity to call witnesses and introduce evidence in its defence. Only after all the information had been considered would the court determine whether the government was entitled to refuse or revoke charitable status.

We shall not lose sight of the fact that the whole process would take place against a backdrop of other independent checks and balances designed to protect the rights and freedoms of all Canadians.

Canadian security services are subject to stringent controls and accountability mechanisms. For example, the Security Intelligence Review Committee, SIRC, and the Inspector General of the Canadian Security Intelligence Service, CSIS, have complementary roles in overseeing CSIS operations. They ensure that Canada's security and intelligence service functions responsibly and that its actions are appropriate and in conformity with the law.

SIRC is a non-partisan committee of five privy councillors. It is independent of the government in its operations but reports to parliament. It has access to any information under the control of the service and is entitled to look at everything the service does. It has the power of independent inquiry and authority to investigate complaints about any act or thing done by CSIS even where the complainant is not personally affected by that action.

The inspector general serves as the solicitor general's internal auditor for CSIS providing another independent means of assurance that CSIS is complying with the law, ministerial direction and operational policy. Together these underlying accountability mechanisms offer Canadians unparalleled protection against discriminatory practices and abuses of power.

The legislation targets violent activities no Canadian could condone. It would provide a fair and just mechanism for dealing with persons or groups who would abuse the trust of Canadians. It is legislation that meets the needs of all Canadians and is legislation that we can all be proud of.

[Kevin Sorenson, Canadian Alliance, Crowfoot, AB]

Mr. Speaker, it is a privilege to rise in the House today to speak to Bill C-16, an act respecting the registration of charities and security information and the Income Tax Act.

The purpose of the bill is to provide a mechanism to strip organizations of their charitable status if they are caught fundraising for terrorist groups.

We believe that the bill would have minimal impact on stemming terrorism in Canada. Effectively, the legislation says that it is all right to sponsor terrorism, it is all right to financially raise support for terrorists, but a person cannot get a tax deduction for doing so.

Effective legislation, legislation Canadian Alliance could wholeheartedly support, would make it a criminal offence to raise and provide funds to support a terrorist organization. This type of legislation already exists in the United States and the United Kingdom.

If curbing the operation of terrorist front groups truly was the goal, we could emulate Great Britain's terrorism act 2000, which empowers cabinet to ban from its country any organization that it believes is involved in terrorist activities. The law proscribes any group if it commits or participates in acts of terrorism: if it prepares for terrorism; if it promotes or encourages terrorism; or if it is otherwise concerned in terrorism either in the United Kingdom or abroad.

The British government publicly identified 21 groups that were associated with terrorism. Among the groups were the likes of Babbar Khalsa, the Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelam, Abu Nidal Organization and the Kurdistan Workers Party.

The United States tried to get at terrorist fundraising through the anti-terrorism and effective death penalty act of 1996. Section 302 of the act authorizes the secretary of state to designate as foreign terrorist organizations any group that meets specific criteria. The act makes it an offence to knowingly provide or conspire to provide material support or resources to a foreign terrorist organization. In 1999 there were 28 foreign terrorist organizations that were listed.

A 1998 CSIS report said that there were as many as 50 international terrorist organizations active in Canada, often using the country as a banking centre. The report said that liberal immigration laws, relatively open borders, freedom of movement, advanced communication systems and the proximity to the United States made Canada inviting for terrorists.

In January 1999 an influential Senate committee, headed by Senator William Kelly, spent months hearing closed door testimonies from almost 100 members of the security and intelligence community. The reports of the special Senate committee on security and intelligence stated very clearly that Canada remained a venue of opportunity for terrorist groups. It remained a place where they could raise funds, purchase arms and conduct other activities to support their organizations and their terrorist activities elsewhere. Most of the major international terrorist organizations already have a presence in Canada

The report made 33 recommendations which unfortunately the Liberal government failed to embrace. The most important recommendation was for a new criminal penalty to combat cyber attacks on vital computer systems by hackers and other electronic saboteurs. It also called for powers to battle terrorist fundraising, more money for intelligence agencies and measures to better track possible extremists who made their way or who came into Canada.

The senators determined that technological advances available to terrorists and spies, from cash debit cards to sophisticated satellites, posed the most serious challenge to Canadian authorities. The committee confirmed that several groups with terrorist affiliations raised money in Canada, often through philanthropic organizations registered as charities under the Federal Income Tax Act. The Senate committee said:

Such status enhances the credibility of such groups and, ironically, creates the situation where Canadian taxpayers end up subsidizing their activities.

The Senate committee also found that the operating funds for federal agencies with a security or intelligence role fell to $333 million in 1997-98, down from $467 million in 1989-90, a trend that it suggests and that it would argue must be reversed to keep Canada from falling behind.

The year 2000 budget for the United States security and intelligence sector was increased by approximately $2 billion. The amount of the United States increase alone was more than four times the total amount budgeted for Canada's security and intelligence community.

One of the committee's recommendations pertained to a legal migration into Canada, primarily through our refugee determination system.

First, it is a means by which terrorists may circumvent our vetting process abroad and enter Canada in search for a temporary or for a permanent haven. Once here they may conduct fundraising activities or other activities. In a very few cases they also organize acts of violence.

Second, large volumes of illegal migrants may ultimately provide the stream in which a few terrorists gain entry into the United States by circumventing Canadian and United States border controls, since Canada has no exit controls. No exit controls mean that it is impossible to calculate how many people remain in Canada illegally, how many slip into the United States, how many return to their country of origin or how many go elsewhere.

As of October 23, 1998 there were 6,110 warrants for removal issued against persons deemed to have abandoned or withdrawn their refugee claims. Of these, 640 warrants were executed and the persons removed from Canada; 240 warrants were cancelled; and there was no action on the remaining 5,272 warrants. It is quite obvious that this is a very serious problem.

On Friday last week a news article in the National Post reported that RCMP officers testified at an immigration hearing that as many as 8,000 Tamil guerrillas with military weapon training were now living in the Toronto area after fleeing a civil war in Sri Lanka.

In reference to the Tamil guerrillas, I would like to conclude today by quoting the April 27 National Post article which said:

Sergeant Fred Bowen said most were “in the retired category” but a few remain active and all had undergone some form of military training provided either by India's military intelligence agency or the Tamil Tigers rebel army.

Sergeant Bowen's estimate of the number of guerrillas who have slipped into Canada during this influx matches a Toronto police figure and may explain how the small rebel force manages to raise, according to the Canadian Security Intelligence Service, $2 million a year in Canada to finance its war effort.

Sergeant Bowen testified that aside from the former guerrilla fighters there are 12 to 15 active members of the Tigers who are on call to commit crimes for the insurgent force in Toronto, as well as 1,000 Tamil gang members, about a third of them supporters of the rebels.

He said there had been 65 shootings in the Toronto Tamil community since September, 2000...“The vast majority of the community is not involved. They are being victimized, they are being extorted.

The gangs are doing anything for money: home invasions and passport theft; drug dealing; crimes of opportunity; frauds; counterfeiting; credit card frauds; attempted murder; kidnappings; extortions.”

I cannot support this ineffective legislation in its present form, therefore I call upon the government to introduce and enact legislation that would make it hard for terrorists and their supporters to get here, stay here and that would make it impossible for them to raise money while they here. If they were caught in any way, shape or form supporting terrorist activities here or abroad, criminal charges with a very severe penalty would be handed down.

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bélair)]

Is the House ready for the question?

[Some hon. members]

Question.

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bélair)]

The question is on the motion. Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[Some hon. members]

No.

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bélair)]

All those in favour of the motion will please say yea.

[Some hon. members]

Yea.

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bélair)]

All those opposed will please say nay.

[Some hon. members]

Nay.

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bélair)]

In my opinion the yeas have it.

And more than five members having risen:

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bélair)]

Pursuant to order made on Thursday, April 26, the division stands deferred until Tuesday, May 1, at the ordinary hour of daily adjournment.