House of Commons Hansard #61 of the 37th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was quebec.

Topics

Income Tax Amendments Act, 2000Government Orders

12:30 p.m.

Mississauga South Ontario

Liberal

Paul Szabo LiberalParliamentary Secretary to Minister of Public Works and Government Services

Mr. Speaker, the member referred to the page number, so on that slight technicality, showing the 1,000 page document, I was listing some of the things that are in there, including the corporate tax segments, the schedules for capital cost allowance, all of the things that have to do with trusts, family trusts and survivor trusts, and the non-resident taxation.

The document contains a substantial number of things that have nothing to do with personal income taxation. I can tell the member that of that 1,000 page document there are only about 10 pages that are applicable to about 80% of Canadian taxpayers.

My question has to do with the capital gains side. The member noted that there are a number of provisions. Most of those are there because of history, such as the $100,000 capital gains exemption, changes to the effective rate, list of personal property and a whole host of historic aspects of capital gains.

However, the member did say that he would support eliminating capital gains tax. Let us take something as simple as the investment in the stock market. Shares obviously are valued on the basis of their after tax return. Capital gains tax would be taken into account to determine the return on investment, similar to taking into account the dividend policy with regard to that.

If the member is correct when he says that the policy should be to eliminate the tax, he probably should know that doing so would affect the ability of the companies that have capital gains history to attract capital. In fact it would penalize companies that have high dividend payouts and lower capital gain because they do not withhold money for reinvestment in the company. They are paying out.

The member suggested that we lower or eliminate the capital gain so that companies that have low dividend payouts and high expansion get a benefit ahead of those who in fact pay out higher levels of dividend yield to their shareholders. Is this what the member is trying to say? Is he saying less money for ordinary investors in Canada?

Income Tax Amendments Act, 2000Government Orders

12:35 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Werner Schmidt Canadian Alliance Kelowna, BC

Mr. Speaker, the hon. member was a chartered accountant in a previous life and should understand what he was saying and should also understand what the act says. He probably has a pretty good understanding of capital gains. There are a number of different ways in which we can talk about capital gains. I have to also refer back to his idea that there are only about 10 pages on income tax in there. That is amazing. We should then throw this thing away.

Income Tax Amendments Act, 2000Government Orders

12:35 p.m.

An hon. member

On personal.

Income Tax Amendments Act, 2000Government Orders

12:35 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Werner Schmidt Canadian Alliance Kelowna, BC

Capital gains is very personal. There are over 100 pages of capital gains in there and that is very personal. The hon. member had better do his arithmetic a little better.

Coming back to capital gains, the issue of dividends may or may not be related to capital gains. It could be but I doubt that very much, particularly when it comes to the area of innovations and people who want to establish a brand new company, such as the angels, for example, who work with small businesses and put a lot of venture capital on the table. Generally these companies do not pay dividends at all. They are risking the total amount of the capital they put on the table.

In order to encourage that kind of innovation, we want to make sure that money is there and these people can get their rewards from their investment. That is really what I am talking about. We do want to encourage that.

In Canada there have been some tremendous innovative ideas, but we have discouraged much of the risk capital and many of the venture capitalists from investing here simply because of the high burden of capital gains.

Income Tax Amendments Act, 2000Government Orders

12:35 p.m.

Liberal

Paul Szabo Liberal Mississauga South, ON

Mr. Speaker, is the hon. member aware of the fact that in RRSPs, in which a large number of Canadians invest, capitals gains on investments that are purchased inside an RRSP are treated like straight income and would not benefit from eliminating capital gains tax?

Income Tax Amendments Act, 2000Government Orders

12:35 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Werner Schmidt Canadian Alliance Kelowna, BC

Mr. Speaker, I am very well aware of that. I would like to remind the hon. member that within the RRSP no tax is paid on the interest that is borne or on dividends either.

Income Tax Amendments Act, 2000Government Orders

12:35 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Philip Mayfield Canadian Alliance Cariboo—Chilcotin, BC

Mr. Speaker, I would like to advise you that I am splitting my time with the member for Souris—Moose Mountain.

The bill seeks to amend the Income Tax Act to put in place the mini budget or economic statement from the fall.

The interesting thing is that the Liberal government has yet to produce a budget that will outline its priorities, both for taking in government revenues and spending them. It is inexcusable that we should be meandering through the wilderness of the economic difficulties of these days, where leading corporations like Nortel are laying off major portions of its total workforce. That involved something like 6,000 Canadian jobs. As well, we are watching the U.S. economy slow down. For the first time in many years, the U.S. unemployment rate is actually rising. All of this is going on while the finance minister's policy is based on last year's election spending spree.

In addition, the Canadian dollar is continuing to slide. I remember talking about this issue a few months ago. At that time we watched the dollar slide up and down above and below 67 cents U.S. Today it is down to anywhere from 63 cents to 65 cents U.S., which means that our dollar has lost about 16% of its value in the last eight years.

Our weak dollar is like a national pay cut for everybody. It means that the value of our money and the value of everything we own in Canadian dollars has been reduced. Canadians' savings have been reduced. Customers are forced to pay more for imported goods in a global economy where almost everything we buy is made, at least partly, somewhere outside Canada, while the Liberal government merely continues its trend of spending and of ignoring the need for real tax cuts.

During the 20th century in the United States there were three episodes of significant tax rate reductions. These reductions occurred in the 1920s under U.S. presidents Harding and Coolidge. They happened again in the 1960s under President Kennedy and in the 1980s under President Ronald Reagan. In each case the Canadian Liberal government of the day predicted that tax cuts would only reduce revenues and benefit the affluent.

People are always worried about the affluent benefiting. This morning we heard a number of speeches in private members' business and now under this bill that show the government is worrying that the rich will get richer. However, if the people who have the money do not invest, we know what will happen to everyone else. No jobs will be available for them.

In each case the Liberal government of the day decided that it would increase taxes and spend its way out of the problem. Each time the United States avoided an economic crisis but Canada ran head on into it. We see this happening again today.

President Bush is calling for massive tax cuts. He recognizes that the global economy is slowing. He recognizes that his country is heading for a recession. He also recognizes that swift and significant tax cuts are necessary to stimulate the economy of his country. President Bush is showing leadership by working to avoid a crisis. The Bush administration has proposed tax cutting measures that would reduce taxes by as much as $1.6 trillion over the next 10 years. Both Republicans and Democrats have introduced tax measures in congress that would see tax relief of up to $160 billion retroactive to January of this year.

What is our government doing? What is the Liberal solution to stop the economic bleeding and to avoid a crisis? Its approach is quite unique. Last week it announced a $500 million spending spree for arts groups. The arts are important in Canada, but jobs for Canadians are perhaps more important at this time when our economy is in crisis. Where would the money come from?

The government has announced tax increases through the CPP. It has erased any modest gains that might have been made through personal tax cuts. It refuses to lower taxes, issue a budget, follow the American example and bring in an across the board tax reduction.

As we talk about capital gains taxes we go into the nuts and bolts and the minutia of them when all the while the government is trying to avoid the necessity of reducing taxes for Canadians so that they would have more money in their pockets to make the economy work.

A recent report by the Institute for Research on Public Policy shows the human costs of the government's refusal to lower taxes. It studied the migration habits of Canadians leaving for the United States. The results should come as no surprise. Canadians are flocking to the United States because the taxes are lower there. Their buying power increases and they have more money in their wallets. Every year thousands of Canadians go to the United States for better pay, better tax rates and better opportunities to secure their future.

I was watching a TV show the other day in which Canadian hospitals were trying to bring Canadian nurses back from the United States. Goodness knows we need them. However the response from the nurses who were going to the job fairs was that the pay and working conditions here were not as good, taxes were too high, and their spouses who were in the United States with them could not find jobs if they came back to Canada.

The alarming number of Canadians heading to the United States is increasing. Despite the Prime Minister sticking his head in the sand and pretending that there is no brain drain, the numbers tell the story. In 1968 the number of people leaving Canada for the U.S. was 17,000. In 1997 that number rose to 98,000. In 1986 only 3% of Canada's natural scientists left for the United States. In 1997 that number rose to 11%.

We have a brain drain crisis. Our best and brightest are going south. Doctors, nurses, scientists and computer programmers are among the many heading for lower taxes and better wages. We have to deal with this problem. High Canadian taxes is the most urgent task facing parliament. Thus far our economy has had a free ride on the United States, but we are now seeing the results of government policy or lack thereof.

I see the government having a far more serious problem by not producing a budget that Canadians can see and work with. We need a budget that we can hew to, not a general economic statement prepared for a national election and justified through legislation.

Income Tax Amendments Act, 2000Government Orders

12:45 p.m.

Etobicoke North Ontario

Liberal

Roy Cullen LiberalParliamentary Secretary to Minister of Finance

Mr. Speaker, in listening to the member opposite I wondered how he could stand in the House to talk about how the government has been inactive in cutting taxes.

Last fall the government introduced the largest tax cuts in Canadian history of $100 billion. Those tax cuts which took effect on January 1, coupled with the tax cuts at some provincial government levels, are having a huge effect on the economy. It is about 2% or better in terms of percentage points related to the gross domestic product. Most economists understand the significance of that and are saying that it is having a very stimulative effect.

All economists are saying that the timing could not have been better. Hon. members opposite often cite the Americans. They seem to be enraptured by them. However the Americans are still debating their tax cuts. Our tax cuts came into effect on January 1. We have to do more and we will do more.

The hon. member opposite talked about spending. He selected some items that have been developed and addressed as a priority by the government. Included in that was an important initiative of half a billion dollars for farmers which I guess just slipped his mind.

When he selects those spending items, has he actually looked at the other items? I know he will say that it was not enough, because we could always do more. Does he not support the half billion dollars that was topped up to give farmers some relief?

Income Tax Amendments Act, 2000Government Orders

12:50 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Philip Mayfield Canadian Alliance Cariboo—Chilcotin, BC

Mr. Speaker, I agree that it is not a matter of what the government spends in the necessary areas. For example, we need more spending in health care. We need to maintain our social programs. We are not talking about the urgent needs of Canadians.

The child benefit is a spending program delivered through the tax system. I would like to touch on the point the hon. member mentioned about $100 billion in tax relief. There is some sleight of hand in this number if we take all the minuses into account: the minus $3.2 billion for social spending over five years, the minus $29.5 billion over five years for increased CPP premium hikes; and the minus $20.7 billion over five years for cancelled tax hikes in indexation. What do we come up with? Not $100 billion tax relief but something just over $53 billion. That is a little more than half what the government is talking about.

We need to have the numbers on the table so that we know where we stand in both the income and the spending of the government, not the kind of sleight of hand that it uses to win an election. That is what the bill is about. It is to implement something that was put in place as an election strategy.

Income Tax Amendments Act, 2000Government Orders

12:50 p.m.

Mississauga South Ontario

Liberal

Paul Szabo LiberalParliamentary Secretary to Minister of Public Works and Government Services

Mr. Speaker, the hon. member briefly referred to CPP tax increases. He knows that the funds invested by Canadians through their premiums in the Canada pension plan are segregated funds. They are not government money for spending. They are there for the benefit of Canadians in terms of their future pensions.

As we all know, with the baby boomer demographics today we have something like five workers for every one retiree. With the large number of baby boomers who will be retiring we will be reducing that number to three workers for every retiree. Less workers will be required to fund the Canada pension plan.

Would the hon. member prefer to scrap the CPP and leave everybody to fend for themselves at retirement, or does he support the amendments made to the Canada pension plan, including increasing the premiums over a period of time to ensure it is there for all Canadians?

Income Tax Amendments Act, 2000Government Orders

12:50 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Philip Mayfield Canadian Alliance Cariboo—Chilcotin, BC

Mr. Speaker, I would like to see a clear picture of our spending. The hon. member mentioned CPP as being designated. What guarantee do we have if there is no surplus in the fund, as in the case of the employment insurance fund? The government could not capture the revenue for itself.

Nothing is sacred and segregated to the government. If the government wants it, it will take it. We cannot look at CPP as anything but a tax because the government handles it as government revenue.

Income Tax Amendments Act, 2000Government Orders

12:50 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Roy H. Bailey Canadian Alliance Souris—Moose Mountain, SK

Mr. Speaker, I welcome the opportunity to speak to Bill C-22. It is certainly a complex bill. Thousands of people in Canada, and a good many in my constituency, fall into the situation that I am about to describe in terms of exemptions and qualifications.

I refer to what happens to a young father who finds himself in a divorce situation. I draw the attention of the House to two such cases as they relate directly to the exemptions in the Income Tax Act. Dan and Valerie were married for 12 years. I do not know what led up to the divorce but they went through a divorce. The responsibility, and rightly so, is for Dan to support the children.

I will not accept for a moment, as is generally thought across Canada, that all these men are deadbeat dads. Dan agreed to pay his wife $1,000 a month for the upkeep of his children. At the end of the year that upkeep costs him $1,200 a month. Aside from the cost of the divorce and the loss of his house, he does not get to claim that $1,200 as an exemption. His wife does not have to claim it as income and receives a tax credit. That is wrong. No matter which way the cake is cut, it is wrong.

I have other examples on file. We do not know why suicides come about, but all these dads are not deadbeats. Many of them work overtime to make ends meet, only to have to pay more money. They are finding it more difficult to pay up each month. They want to carry on their responsibilities, but the situation is getting worse.

The last example I have on file is a shocker. John married a girl by the name of Janet and she had one child from her previous marriage. He accepted that child and together they had two more children. That union divorced and, believe it or not, Janet married her former husband. The oldest child from the former husband then went back to the original parents. John was ordered by the court to pay support for three children, even though the one child he assumed from the previous marriage was back with the original parents.

I could go on and on. All kinds of people have written to me from across Canada. In many cases there is no fight between the former wife and husband, but in many cases these young men simply cannot make it. What I am saying is that the monthly support payment should be an absolute deduction.

We seem to say at the present time that all divorces are the fault of the men. There is no question about that. One only has to look at the tax laws and the exemption entitlements. Hundreds of young men under 40 escape by running away, by taking on new names, and some by committing suicide. We sit here and allow it go on year in and year out. No one has the stamina and the courage to say that it is wrong. If members ever talk to some of these young people, they should talk to a man of 38 years of age who lost his professional job through no fault of his own. Watch the tears roll down his face because he cannot meet those obligations, and he was never credited for it as a tax deduction in all those years.

I say to the House and I say to all Canadians, it is time we faced up to this. It is time that we said no, that not everyone is a deadbeat dad. If we look at the statistics most of them are not.

I have dealt with many cases individually where men have had to suffer extreme hardships in order to meet the requirements of the courts. Then the income tax comes, they make a huge payment and have no deductions whatsoever. Their income tax is deducted at source because they are once again a single parent.

I wish that somehow the finance committee could sit down with the other departments involved in this to bring this atrocity to an end, to bring some fairness to the situation and to bring some fairness to what happens with a court ruling. Maybe they will. However if they do not, there will be more and more young men who will mysteriously disappear from the landscape and we will not know the reason for their deaths.

Income Tax Amendments Act, 2000Government Orders

1 p.m.

Mississauga South Ontario

Liberal

Paul Szabo LiberalParliamentary Secretary to Minister of Public Works and Government Services

Mr. Speaker, I am happy that the member raised the issue of divorce and the costs. The member will well know that children are the real victims of divorce.

When we consider a couple, whether one or two are working, with the same income before and after divorce, the expenses are not the same. In fact divorce costs money because if anything there is a second residence to be paid for. That means the disposable income of a family usually is eroded substantially because of that. On top of that should they be unfortunate enough to have to go through litigation of some sort, the lawyers take a substantial portion. The member will well know that in a number of cases it will wipe out the family's savings totally.

The member, in the case he used, raised the question about a spouse not being able to deduct child support payments. He should know that child support payments have never been deductible by anybody. The issue is where is the income taxed.

The hon. member may recall the Thibaudeau case where Mrs. Thibaudeau went to the court. She said she received child support payments and that she did not want pay tax on it. She wanted her husband to pay all the tax on his income and not transfer that income to hers. What the member was describing and what he disagreed with was the court judgment on the Thibaudeau case. Maybe he wanted to suggest that we look at the Thibaudeau case.

Having said, that, I tend to agree with him that the Thibaudeau case actually exacerbated a situation in terms of the disposable income of those two people. The fact that a high income earner pays a higher rate of tax on marginal income and all of sudden this additional income for the spouse with a lower level of income probably is taxed at a lower rate. However it is not the same for all situations.

I make this as a comment. Maybe the member would like to offer his comments with regard to the importance of all of us working a little harder to make sure our families stay intact because everybody loses, particularly children, when there is divorce.

Income Tax Amendments Act, 2000Government Orders

1 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Roy H. Bailey Canadian Alliance Souris—Moose Mountain, SK

Mr. Speaker, of course I agree. There is no one in the House more firmly convinced that the best institution, our oldest institution has to be maintained. That is to strengthen the family in every way possible. The previous speaker mentioned that very fact.

No matter which way we want to cut the cake, when there is an expenditure in child rearing it should be considered.

I know of a case in Toronto where the individual is paying $20,000 a month with two children. I know other case where the father is trying to put up $2,000 a month. Not only is he going bankrupt, he will lose the his house because of what happened to his income.

There should be a $12,000 a year deduction at source for that parent. There is no one in the House or outside it who can successfully argue that it should not be an income tax deduction. Maybe we are past the days of being all deadbeat dads when we hung it on the men and gave women more liberty. I hope those days are gone forever.

Sometimes after divorce, even though the money goes to the wife in support of children, she then continues to work and pay income tax. She includes the children and does not have to count the money. There is something wrong there. I think everybody on that side of the House knows it. Everybody in Canada once it is explained knows it, and it is up to the government to make the changes.

Income Tax Amendments Act, 2000Government Orders

1:05 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Jason Kenney Canadian Alliance Calgary Southeast, AB

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to rise in debate on Bill C-22. I spoke at the initial reading before the House. I would like to reiterate in closing the debate the opposition of the official opposition to the bill.

Often we are criticized of opposing for the sake of opposition. In fact I think we have a record of supporting about half of the government bills which are introduced, those which we think are sensible and lend incremental improvements to public policy. Bill C-22 falls far short of that standard in many respects.

It purports to legislate tax changes announced in the economic statement of last October. The economic statement, which was hurriedly put together by the finance minister on the behest of the Prime Minister immediately before an election, did not take into account the new economic circumstances in which we now find ourselves. At that time the finance minister was projecting a nominal GDP growth rate or real growth of 3.5%. It is now evident that given the downturn in which we now find ourselves, that economic growth for the current calendar year will be more like 2.5% or perhaps lower. It undoubtedly will have a substantial affect on the government's fiscal situation and the revenues available to it. It will also place an upward pressure on spending.

In the face of this new economic uncertainty in which we now find ourselves, the government has not responded at all. It has acted irresponsibly. The last full budget we had was in February, 2000. It now appears likely that there will not be a full budget presented to the House until February 2002. This would constitute the longest stretch of a budget not having been presented to parliament in the history of the Dominion.

At a time of economic uncertainty, when we see the United States continuing to go into possibly a technical recession, we see our third largest trading partner, Japan, in the midst of an economic and fiscal crisis. We see the possibility of Latin America veering off its economic course. Let us be objective and realistic about this, not pessimistic. Objectively there is the very real potential for more troubled economic times within the foreseeable future, yet we have no budget to take that into account.

The finance minister will apparently make one of his smoke and mirrors presentations with video charts and focused group language tested by his friends at Earnscliffe consulting at considerable taxpayer expense. He will that on Thursday. However it will not be a serious economic budget. It will not take into account the new circumstances. It certainly will not deal with the very serious corrosive problem of runaway Liberal spending which is now setting into the fiscal status of the federal government.

In the fiscal year just ended, 2000-01, it appears that the total program spending will have grown by about 7.1%. This is a huge increase at a time when inflation plus population is growing at a rate of just under 3%. In other words, spending under the government is growing more than twice as fast as the population and inflation. It is doubling the need for growth set by our economy, our inflation and our growth of the population. The projection for the foreseeable future is that spending growth will continue at a rate of at least 5%. We think it will likely be substantially higher than that given the track record of the government to date. This is simply not sustainable.

We had in the last fiscal year $11.1 billion in supplementary estimates above and beyond what was originally projected by the government a year ago in its main estimates. We had money which was been announced and not properly authorized or put through the estimates process in advance. We had the phenomenon known as March madness where the government spent as much as 70% more in the last month of the fiscal year than it did in any other month of the year. There was much as $16 billion in spending this past March.

The warning bells are ringing that spending is growing out of control. I can understand the political dynamic within which the Finance Minister must operate. I suspect he has tried his best to maintain the big spending old style Liberal habits of his colleagues and is simply losing that debate around the cabinet table in the caucus room now. The special interests in his caucus, the Minister of Canadian Heritage and the Minister of Industry and their big spending friends, continue to grapple for millions more taxpayer dollars. We see this in the fiscal bottom line.

The point is that every additional dollar in discretionary, unnecessary and wasteful spending that is committed by the government is a dollar taken away from perspective tax relief for working families to create new and better jobs. It is a dollar taken away from debt reduction to secure our long term economic future and pay down our still enormous national mortgage.

My colleagues opposite will say that the bill before us gives effect to tax changes and therefore there is still room for new spending. This ignores the economic reality in which we find ourselves. The reality is the bill purports to authorize $100 billion in tax reductions which is just complete nonsense.

When we clear away the smoke, the mirrors and the fudge it budgeting, when we take out the spending increase in the child tax benefit which is an entitlement program, it is a spending program not a tax cut, when we net out the $29 billion Canada pension plan premium increase, the largest single tax increase in Canadian history, an increase which has caused most Canadians so far in this calendar year to see their tax level go up after advertised tax cut and when the impact is taken out of de-indexing the tax system which is not a tax cut it is just a non-increase, we find that the real net tax cut over the ensuing five years is less than $50 billion.

Liberals do not increase taxes but all of a sudden they want to take credit for that as a tax cut. I am afraid it simply does not wash. If we tried that kind of accounting as a CFO at a company, we would end up making licence plates in a provincial institution. The net tax relief is half of what is advertised in the bill. That does very little to correct the significant disadvantage we continue to face vis-à-vis our major competitors and trading partners.

Canada continues today to have the highest personal income tax to GDP ratio in the G-7. In laymen terms that means we have the highest income taxes of any major country in the world; 14.1% of GDP. Even if we take the Finance Minister's bogus $100 billion figure and subtract that from our current tax burden, we still end up with Canada at a PIT to GDP ratio of 12.4%, the highest in the G-7.

It is substantially higher than that of the United States even today. Our major trading partner will be cutting taxes by at least $1.35 trillion U.S., not Canadian dollarettes, over the next 11 years, thus rendering the Canadian tax system even less competitive.

This would not be a problem if it did not have an effect on our standard of living, but it does and very substantially. Canada continues to see its rate of growth in labour productivity, an absolute key indicator of growth in our standard of living, at one-third the level of the United States.

I have raised this issue in the House during question period. The finance minister says our productivity is growing. Yes, it is, barely, by roughly 1.5% a year, while we see productivity gains in the United States of 4%. That means the U.S. is producing more and doing it more efficiently. It is creating more wealth which is shared by more people.

Why? It is not because Canadians are not hard working. They are hard working and well educated. It is because we penalize too many Canadians for working hard, taking risks and investing and saving. The very economic behaviours which create wealth and raise our standard of living are penalized by our punishing tax regime.

The government's bill would raise the basic personal exemption level to $8,000 under which a taxpayer would not pay taxes. The government claims this is a great act of progressivity. However it falls far short of what it ought to be doing to rescue low income Canadians forced on to the tax rolls by bracket creep. The government has benefited from this tax on inflation during the last eight years of its mandate. The government has put an additional 1.9 million low income people on to the tax rolls by way of bracket creep.

The Canadian Alliance proposes to raise the basic personal exemption to $10,000 and match it with a $10,000 spousal equivalent. We would no longer have second class citizens when it comes to the tax code. Stay at home parents would no longer be regarded as having less economic value than their income earning spouses. We would also have a $3,000 per child tax credit, which would mean that a family of four under our system would face zero taxes on their first $26,000 of income. That would remove at least 1.4 million low income Canadians from the tax rolls.

I find it galling to see Liberals pat themselves on the back about how progressive they are and how they favour the poor when in fact they oppose measures like this one, measures which would give real relief to the working poor and people on fixed incomes. That is another reason we oppose the bill.

We are not just penalizing people at the low end of the scale. Through the bill and in its economic statement of October the government would raise income thresholds at which people are taxed at higher levels at marginal rates. That is a baby step in the right direction but we are still miles from the threshold levels for marginal rates as set in the United States.

People do not enter the highest tax bracket in the United States until they earn over $250,000 U.S., or well over $350,000 Canadian, whereas one enters that bracket in Canada upon earning $100,000 Canadian. Bright young entrepreneurs who work hard, succeed and get ahead are penalized by the government the moment they break into six figures, but people in the United States earn three to four times that before being hit by the highest marginal rate.

I can feel my Liberal colleagues' soak the rich, politics of envy gene kicking in. They want to stand and say that the rich should pay their share. Successful Canadians do pay their share. The top 10% of income earners earn about one-third of the income in the country and pay about half the income taxes. The top 1% of income earners earn about 9% of the income and pay about 20% of taxes.

Those who create the most wealth and are successful pay a hugely disproportionate share of taxes. I am not necessarily arguing with that. However they would create more wealth, invest more, take more risks and ultimately create more jobs if we raised the income thresholds for the marginal rates substantially higher as is the case for many of our competitors.

The Canadian Alliance Party thinks the optimum tax policy is not to penalize people for working hard. We would adopt the generous exemptions I have outlined plus eventually a single rate which is progressive. We propose a rate of 17%. That would mean a family of four with $26,000 in income, given the generous credits we have proposed, would pay zero taxes. A family of four with $52,000 of income would pay 17% on only the taxable half of its income. It would pay an effective rate of 8.5%. A family of four with a multimillion dollar income would effectively pay 17%. My colleague from Toronto—Danforth who is the principal advocate of this idea knows full well that it is progressive.

We have serious concerns about the inability of the government to get tax policy right. Not only are we falling behind in terms of productivity growth. We are doing so in terms of competitiveness. We are not keeping up.

We are not keeping up on corporate taxes. According to a major study done by KPMG that appeared in the Economist last month, we have the highest corporate income taxes in the OECD at 42.1%. Our personal income tax burden, relatively speaking, is at least 21% higher than in the United States. In terms of competitiveness we are now ranked seventh by the World Economic Forum compared to the first place United States. Ireland, which is now in fifth place, has leap frogged over us. We have fallen behind in standard of living.

This is reflected in the value of our currency which is hovering at an all time low. Our currency has lost 25% of its value during the tenure of the Liberal government. It has a value of 65, 64 and sometimes 63 U.S. cents. That is an embarrassment and a reflection of the impoverishment of this nation under the policies of the Liberal government.

We oppose the bill and call upon the government to control spending. It must stop these crazy 7% annual increases in spending and allow it to remain constant. Spending must grow in relation to population and inflation growth so that we do not have net cuts in spending. We could let it grow at a gentle curve commensurate with the size of the country and the level of inflation.

Doing that during the five year period outlined in the finance minister's statement would mean an additional $58 billion for tax relief for working families, for job creation and for debt reduction to secure our long term future. That was the $58 billion missed opportunity of the finance minister's statement of last fall which he will reiterate on Thursday. It was a missed opportunity to create more wealth and pay down the huge national mortgage.

Often when we talk about the debt the finance minister jumps up and says we have reduced it. That is not true. The debt is about $60 billion higher today than when the finance minister took office in 1993. He has increased the debt. He has not paid it down. Public sector financial liabilities total about 106% of our gross domestic product. That is the third highest in the G-7 and the OECD.

The government says we can afford to increase spending by 5%, 6% or 7% a year and ignore the debt. However private sector economists have projected that we will be in a planning deficit by fiscal year 2004-05.

What does that mean? It means that in order to finance these reckless increases we will need to eat into the government's emergency reserves, the so-called prudence and contingency reserves. Those moneys are not supposed to be spent by reckless members of the Liberal cabinet. They are supposed to be set aside in case the economy shrinks.

The Liberals are already eating into the contingency reserve of 2004 based on very optimistic economic growth projections. If the economy turns down, the surplus that taxpayers have worked so hard to obtain will disappear and the promised tax relief will go down the sinkhole with it.

We are here today ringing alarm bells about the government's return to fiscal irresponsibility. We plead with it to look not just at the next two years but at four or five years down the road and what will happen if spending continues on its current trajectory. Therefore I move:

That the motion be amended by deleting all the words after the word “That” and substituting the following therefor:

Bill C-22, an Act to amend the Income Tax Act, the Income Tax Application Rules, certain Acts related to the Income Tax Act, the Canada Pension Plan, the Customs Act, the Excise Tax Act, the Modernization of Benefits and Obligations Act and another Act related to the Excise Tax Act, be not now read a third time but that it be read a third time this day six months hence.

Income Tax Amendments Act, 2000Government Orders

1:25 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

The amendment is in order. Debate is now on the amendment.

Income Tax Amendments Act, 2000Government Orders

1:25 p.m.

Etobicoke North Ontario

Liberal

Roy Cullen LiberalParliamentary Secretary to Minister of Finance

Mr. Speaker, there was a program that my friends and I used to watch in the 1950s and 1960s. It was called The Twilight Zone . The member for Calgary Southeast probably never had a chance to watch it, but he sounded very much like that.

I do not where to begin but I will focus on a couple of areas. The hon. member talks about the debt. The government is paying down debt faster than any other industrialized nation. The member conveniently forgets that one cannot attack the debt until one eliminates the deficit, which we did. We started that as soon as we came into office.

The member knows that federal government spending is at the lowest level in terms of GDP since the early 1950s. We will continue that moderating approach. The member talks about possible deficits. There is no evidence of any deficits. The Minister of Finance has budgeted and planned so that we have fiscal cushions to absorb changes in the economy.

What got me the most was when the member said Canadians were not really getting a tax cut. He said the $100 billion tax cut would not be a tax cut for most Canadians. He said part of it would, I admit that.

I will give some examples. We will ask Canadians if they think this is a tax cut. One earner families of four earning $40,000 paid about $3,325 in federal income taxes last year. This year they will pay about $1,100 less. That is a 32% saving. The saving will increase to 59% by the year 2004. I ask the hon. member if that is not a tax saving. I think it is.

Last year two earner families of four earning $60,000 paid about $5,700 in federal income taxes. Next year they will pay over $1,000 less, a tax saving of 18%. Those savings would increase to 34% by the year 2004. I take that as a tax decrease. In other words, Canadians will pay a lot less tax as a result of the October 2000 economic and fiscal update. I challenge the member to refute that those are not tax savings. Those members talk about re-indexation until they are blue in the face. They ask why we did not re-index the tax system. We have done that.

The member talked about the Canada pension plan. He knows full well that the Canadian pension plan is a contribution based pension scheme and that those funds do not go anywhere near consolidated revenue. He knows that and yet he continues to talk about it as being a tax. Would the member reconsider his statements and come clean with Canadians?

Income Tax Amendments Act, 2000Government Orders

1:30 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Jason Kenney Canadian Alliance Calgary Southeast, AB

Mr. Speaker, the parliamentary secretary is in the twilight zone. He has to defend the highest personal income tax burden in the developed world. It is a tough job to do.

When the parliamentary secretary talked about the so-called tax savings he was including new spending transfers like the child tax benefit. The government will be sending out cheques to people and calling them the child tax benefit. That is fine but it is a spending increase and he is calling it a tax cut. That is not honest bookkeeping.

The parliamentary secretary wants us to ignore the $29 billion CPP tax grab. He says that is off-budget. It is in an Al Goresque lock box or something. That is nonsense. Those moneys have always been fungible. We know that money going into the CPP has been spent as though it were in general revenues. It is a tax that must be paid by Canadians mandated by the government.

What the parliamentary secretary really misses is the fact that even with some modest steps forward on the tax front, the government is allowing $58 billion to be gobbled up by new spending above and beyond the rate of growth in population and inflation. That is a missed opportunity of $58 billion which can and should be delivered to working families in the form of far more dramatic tax relief. This would enable us to increase our productivity and our standard of living.

The money could go toward the national debt but he did not even talk about that. He said that we could not reduce the debt until the deficit was eliminated. He is right. The government took four years to eliminate the deficit. According to Dale Orr of WEFA, Don Drummond of the Toronto-Dominion Bank, a former associate deputy minister of finance and the member's own colleague from Markham, we are now going back into a deficit.

Last October his colleague said that there could be as much as a $2.6 billion planning deficit. He did not address the fact that we are at risk of going back into deficit territory in the out years of the current fiscal plan because spending is not under control. That is the challenge and that is the question the government needs to answer.

Income Tax Amendments Act, 2000Government Orders

1:30 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

Is the House ready for the question?

Income Tax Amendments Act, 2000Government Orders

1:30 p.m.

Some hon. members

Question.

Income Tax Amendments Act, 2000Government Orders

1:30 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

The question is on the amendment. All those in favour of the amendment will please say yea.

Income Tax Amendments Act, 2000Government Orders

1:30 p.m.

Some hon. members

Yea.

Income Tax Amendments Act, 2000Government Orders

1:30 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

All those opposed will please say nay.

Income Tax Amendments Act, 2000Government Orders

1:30 p.m.

Some hon. members

Nay.

Income Tax Amendments Act, 2000Government Orders

1:30 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

In my opinion the nays have it.

And more than five members having risen: