House of Commons Hansard #63 of the 37th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was quebec.

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Division No. 99Government Orders

5:55 p.m.

The Speaker

It being 5.58 p.m. the House will now proceed to the consideration of private members' business as listed on today's order paper.

The House resumed from March 20 consideration of the motion that Bill C-217, an act to provide for the taking of samples of blood for the benefit of persons administering and enforcing the law and good Samaritans and to amend the Criminal Code, be read the third time and referred to a committee.

Blood Samples ActPrivate Members' Business

6 p.m.

Bloc

Benoît Sauvageau Bloc Repentigny, QC

Mr. Speaker, it is a pleasure to speak to Bill C-217, under Private Members' Business.

If I am not mistaken, this bill, the blood samples act, was introduced in the House by a Canadian Alliance member on February 5, 2001.

It arises out of an event that occurred in October 1997, when a police officer, Isobel Anderson, arrested a man for armed robbery. It is useful to explain why the Canadian Alliance member introduced this bill.

While searching for weapons, she reached into his pocket and felt a sharp pain. She pulled her hand out to find a bloody needle stuck in her palm. As she feared, doctors told her that the needle may have infected her with HIV, which leads to AIDS. Then she learned that the robbery suspect had refused to take the HIV test and could not be compelled by law to give a blood sample.

After some negotiations, the suspect agreed to a blood test, and the results came back negative for HIV but positive for hepatitis C.

As a precautionary measure, Ms. Anderson agreed to AZT treatment, which understandably changed her life for several months. Six months later it was confirmed that she had contracted neither HIV nor hepatitis C. Today this policewoman is in good health.

Since the creation of the Reform Party, a group called Front Line and Good Samaritans Rights to Know has been encouraging police officers and other emergency workers to make their voices heard and support the efforts of the party, now the Canadian Alliance, in favour of a bill to protect the interests of people working for others in a service capacity.

Our position on this bill is the following: the bill is essentially aimed at forcing people suspected of being HIV or hepatitis B or C positive, and who could have infected a peace officer, a security guard or a person acting under section 494 of the criminal code, to give a blood sample.

The bill is pitting one fundamental right against another, namely the right to health and safety and the right to privacy and the sanctity of the human body.

We believe that in its present form, the bill might infringe upon the rights of people with HIV or hepatitis B or C by ostracizing them. Moreover, such a bill might lead to abuses against those suspected of carrying one of those diseases. Far from reflecting the values dear to Quebecers, this bill would contravene the fundamental human rights legislation passed by the Quebec government.

Finally, it seems obvious to us that this bill would go against the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms and change the Criminal Code in a worrisome way. It would allow for the taking of blood samples even when no misdemeanour or offence of any kind has been committed.

The bill does not respect the fundamental values of Quebecers, and the government has passed several laws to entrench human rights and freedoms.

It might bear repeating that these values are entrenched in the Quebec Charter of Human Rights and Freedoms, at articles 1—dealing with right to life, freedom, security and integrity of person—to 5, which deals with the right to privacy protection. In the Civil Code of Quebec, article 10 states that “Every person is inviolable and is entitled to the integrity of his person”.

If this bill were to be passed, several Quebec acts and codes would be affected by Bill C-217 and would require consequential amendments. That would be the case, for example, for the Professional Code and the Act respecting health services and social services.

When creating the Quebec Charter of Rights and Freedoms in 1974—under the Quebec Liberal Party at the time—the legislator established as a fundamental right that “Every person has a right to respect for his privacy”.

There is in the Civil Code of Quebec, in force since January 1, 1994, a whole chapter on the issue of respect for one's reputation and one's privacy. The new code, after recalling the principle stated in the Charter, provides that only the law or the consent of a person or of his heirs can justify an intrusion in his or her private life.

Moreover, Bill C-217 does not respect the concept of the human body's inviolability provided for in section 10 of Quebec's Civil Code, that says that, except for certain exceptional situations, no one is to be subjected to medical treatment without his or her well-informed and freely given consent.

According to some experts, the definition of medical care is broad enough to include the taking of samples, tests and even DNA analysis. A practice that affects someone's integrity violates all the more his right to privacy. And respect for one's privacy implies that every person can exercise control over personal information concerning him and decide whether to make them public or not.

It is interesting finally to note that the doctors' code of ethics includes under the principle of the confidentiality of medical information two exceptions that would apply to genetic information.

The first exception provides that the doctor can divulge facts that he was personally made aware of when a patient or the law authorizes him to do so, when there is a pressing and justified reason to do so for the patient's health or that of the people around him.

The second exception provides that, unless there is just cause, the physician may not reveal to people who are close to the patient a serious or fatal prognosis if the patient forbids it. However, in this last instance, experts say that nothing indicates what would constitute just cause to justify such violation.

Therefore, these exceptions could not apply to the subject matter of Bill C-217. The bill could be viewed as going against sections 7 and 8 of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms and the jurisprudence from the Supreme Court of Canada. In R. v Dyment , Justice La Forest noted that “the use of a person's body without his consent to obtain information about him invades an area of privacy essential to the maintenance of his human dignity”.

Finally, we are not convinced that taking a blood sample from the person suspected of having transmitted bodily fluid to another person will enable to determine in every case whether the person carries the HIV virus or the hepatitis B or C virus. Indeed, because of the incubation period, it is very difficult to determine with certainty whether an individual is a carrier of these diseases. Had the tests done on the suspect apprehended by Ms. Anderson been negative, nothing could have indicated that the individual himself was not in the incubation period.

For all these reasons, we must oppose Bill C-217, which, in essence, is an interesting bill. When a peace officer, firefighter, or any other person needs to interact with another in the performance of his or her duties and is left with doubts as to whether he or she may have been infected with HIV or hepatitis, this is unbearable, everyone will agree.

However, when a situation needs to be corrected, the way to do it is not with an incomplete, unconstitutional bill, because the very first inmate required to be tested would take it to the Supreme Court of Canada and would—as I have attempted to prove—win his case.

So we need to find a way to provide these personnel with some peace of mind. We in the Bloc Quebecois do not believe that Bill C-217 is the way to go. We do not feel it is going to provide any piece of mind to those working with the public, who are unfortunately infected by misadventure, by accident, or deliberately by inmates in detention.

We often hear stories of prison guards being bitten by inmates. They are then subjected to a truly unbearable sense of insecurity.

This bill, which is intended to remedy this untenable situation, would not do so.

Blood Samples ActPrivate Members' Business

6:10 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Werner Schmidt Canadian Alliance Kelowna, BC

Mr. Speaker, we have here one of those common sense type bills. It is one of those bills that looks into what is good in society and what would protect the health and the good nature of people. The bill would address good Samaritan activities. It would address the protection of good Samaritans, health workers and emergency workers.

I think all members of the House have at one time or another been in contact with an emergency worker. We have extended a helping hand to someone in an accident, whether on the highway or somewhere else, or have wanted to extend a helping hand but were not sure of the conditions of the situation. Emergency workers such as firefighters, police officers and security personnel are often subjected to cases where they do not know all the risks.

The hon. member brought forward the bill with the noblest of intentions. His intentions are not only noble but practical. The member wants to give as much protection as possible to people who are subjected to risks of which they are perhaps unaware. However there seems to be a feeling that any individual who suspects something can demand a blood test.

There is a safeguard in the bill. The safeguard is a judge. Judges are people who have demonstrated and exercised good judgment in the past. That is why they are judges. They help us interpret the law. They make sure the law is applied, as far as humanly possible, in a fair and equitable way. That is what we are after.

When individuals are put into questionable situations they may be subject to risk. The bill looks at three kinds of risks: hepatitis C, hepatitis B and HIV. The bill focuses on these three risks and no others. The presence of these diseases can be detected by a blood test. Is the test foolproof? Of course it is not. No test in the world is absolutely foolproof. However it is good enough to ask a judge that it be administered.

Why do people suggest it would be an intrusion into privacy? The greatest intrusion into people's privacy is to shorten their lives by infecting them with a disease. Drawing a couple of drops of blood and subjecting someone to a test is no great infringement on anything. It would be done through the auspices of a judge and through careful analysis of the situation. I do not know of anything more common sense and humane than that. We should all be supporting the bill with everything we have.

How can we not support the bill? We need only look at the absolute volume of organizations that support it. All kinds of organizations support the bill. I am talking about police departments and associations, and 18 such organizations support the bill.

This is not one group of policemen in some city somewhere. These are national and provincial police associations.

Let us go another step. We have security guard unions and associations. I have eight groups here. Who are some of these groups? The Union of Solicitor General Employees is a pretty sophisticated group. We have the Correctional Officers' Association of Ontario. We have the National Office of the Commissionaires and the North Saskatchewan, Manitoba, Northwestern Ontario and Nova Scotia divisions of the Commissionaires. Not only do we have groups on a national level, we have them on the provincial level. People in these groups are all emergency workers.

We go beyond those groups to include hospitals, health boards and nursing associations. Some 26 different groups support the bill.

We should pay special attention to health workers. Can anyone imagine a situation that is more significant to the welfare of our society than to have a sound and healthy group of health practitioners? Do we want to subject them to unusual and unnecessary risk? We should do everything we possibly can to protect their safety and to assure them that everything is being done to ensure they are not infected due to the risks that are inherent in the profession they are pursuing.

It is not only health workers. I have two other groups here, the paramedic associations and the ambulance services. My heart goes out to these people in a very particular way. They are the frontline people when an accident happens and no one knows for sure what will happen in a situation like that. These are very experienced people who can usually recognize when there may be an unusual risk of exposure in a particular accident or in a particular development. They often know when they have been pricked by a needle, cut by a knife, or have cut themselves on a zipper or on a piece of metal from a vehicle. If they see blood on their hands they do not know if they have been exposed to an infectious disease. Should we not give them every opportunity to have as much protection as possible? Surely that is not unreasonable.

I cannot for a minute believe that anybody would oppose the bill.

I have just talked about the paramedic associations and ambulance services, but we are still not finished. We also have the fire departments. The same set of arguments can be used here when people are going into a building that is on fire. These firemen, who enter buildings filled with fire, smoke and heat, could also suffer a cut to their face or hands no matter how much protective clothing they wear. It will happen. Should these people not have maximum protection? I believe they should. I believe judges are very sympathetic to that.

Someone mentioned to me that there may be abuses with a test like this. What kind of an abuse could there be if members have to appeal to the highest law enforcement office in the land for an interpretation? Are we really suggesting that judges would abuse this kind of a provision to hurt someone else? Would they really to do something like that? I cannot for a second believe that this would be a legitimate concern. I cannot imagine what kind of a reason that might be, but it would have to be an excuse that is manufactured, not one that is resting on common sense or past experience.

I am not finished. I have many other groups, such as the Victims Resource Centre in the city of Nicolet, Quebec, the Retail Loss Prevention Association of British Columbia, and another group from Quebec.

The hon. member from the Bloc mentioned some instances where this might be an intrusion into somebody's privacy. We have dealt with that to at least a small degree. I think even that member, when he thinks through what he said, did not actually mean everything he said. I think what he really wanted to say is that we should maintain the privacy of individuals, but we also wanted to protect their safety and ensure that is the case.

I am sure after analyzing carefully what he said the hon. member would say that he could trust judges, even those judges in Quebec where he suggested there might be intrusion. I believe the judges in Quebec are just as capable of doing this as properly as anyone else. I hope we can encourage everyone to vote in favour of the bill.

Blood Samples ActPrivate Members' Business

6:20 p.m.

Progressive Conservative

Elsie Wayne Progressive Conservative Saint John, NB

Mr. Speaker, it is a pleasure and an honour for me to rise in support of Bill C-217. I take this opportunity to praise the hon. member for Fraser Valley for his tireless work on this file and, more important, for bringing forward a matter of great concern to true Canadian heroes. If the hon. member for Fraser Valley would like to come over here and sit beside me, I would not have a problem with that at all. He has done a wonderful job.

Bill C-217 respecting the blood samples act offers a measure of protection, security and peace of mind to those brave Canadians from every part of the country who put their lives in harm's way to defend and assist those in need. There can be no more noble legislation than that which protects those who protect us. There is a policeman in the gallery tonight who works in the community to protect us.

It has been said that Bill C-217 would benefit Samaritans. I am reminded of the parable of the good Samaritan as recounted to us in the readings of Luke 10:30-37. It is a story of a traveller who was beaten and robbed by a pack of thieves. Left by the side of the street, hurt and bloodied, this innocent victim was in dire need of help. Others came down that same road but passed the traveller and would not reach out a helping hand.

Then came a Samaritan who was himself on a journey and who bore witness to this victim of crime in desperate need of help. The Samaritan did not know the traveller and did not know what had happened. The Samaritan did know, however, that he should treat his neighbours as he would want to be treated himself. The Samaritan stopped and helped the severely beaten traveller, not knowing even so much as his name.

We are fortunate that many brave Canadians have taken this parable to heart. I cannot imagine our not taking the steps in this place, no matter how great or small, to ensure that those who selflessly put themselves in the path of danger are afforded some measure of protection. Whether our modern day Samaritans are heroes by virtue of career or circumstance, they must always be mindful of the fact that helping others must often involve taking risks. The very challenges they overcome to help those in need often make their acts much more heroic.

We know all too well that the modern world has its share of danger. It is hidden from the naked eye but can strike us down as painfully and as deliberately as any danger that is plainly visible.

It is not difficult to imagine that a policeman, a firefighter, a nurse or an ambulance attendant could come into contact with the bodily fluids of someone who has been injured. We could even go as far as to suggest it is expected that they would.

I know that because my mother and father, on their 50th wedding anniversary, were in a car accident caused by two young people who were drinking. Their car rolled over and my mother was pinned. Firefighters and policemen had to cut her loose to get her out of the car. She never walked again. Those who looked after my mother and father did have my parent's blood on their hands. They saved their lives that night and I thank them from the bottom of my heart.

There are many people in the constituency of Saint John, New Brunswick, which I represent, who put their lives in harm's way. I thank them also from the bottom of my heart tonight. In today's society, when policemen are called out and have to go into a home, they put their lives on the line as they never know whether the person in there will attack them with a gun or a knife.

These bodily fluids can cause the spread of infectious diseases that would in some cases be life threatening. For heroes who might well have come in contact with infected bodily fluids, the possibility exists that they might well live out their days under the looming spectre of a debilitating disease.

When we consider the potential consequences of these selfless acts and the risk to those who undertake them without hesitation, we would agree that the onus falls clearly on us in the House to ensure that every possible preventative measure is in place.

The House is well aware that I am neither a lawyer nor a physician. I am just an honorary doctor. However it seems to be a matter of pure common sense that we would seek to take a blood sample for the single purpose of protecting the lives of those who protect us. We all know that by taking a blood sample medical professionals can conclude whether there is a risk of contamination and can decide whether or not to give the powerful drugs available to them that might well fend off an infection.

When my colleague from Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough spoke to this legislation he cited an example of a Calgary police officer who was bitten by an AIDS infected suspect in the course of his daily work. The officer, a loving husband, had to endure a barrage of tests and trials to guarantee that he was not infected with AIDS that day.

Clearly there are questions here that go to the heart of individual rights. If it were my cousin, Gordon Fairweather, standing here instead of myself, I am sure he would speak to those issues and those concerns more eloquently than I. Suffice to say, however, that our Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms clearly protects each individual Canadian and I see no corruption of those rights by voting in favour of Bill C-217.

I cannot imagine a world where a police officer, a fireman, ambulance drivers or the people in the ambulance must face the daily possibilities of being infected with AIDS. I cannot imagine a world where an ambulance attendant would have to hesitate before giving medical attention to a victim for fear that he or she might contract a disease. The rights of the person who has blood taken are already protected to a large extent. Police officers must obtain warrants and go before a justice before a blood sample can be taken. In most instances there are exceptions.

Bill C-217 has been carefully drafted so as not to go too far afield in breaching a persons human rights. Current sections of the criminal code would also apply to compel those who would use the particular section not to go outside a person's human rights.

There are current sections that apply to impaired driving, sexual assault and the new DNA databank that would come under similar scrutiny in the judicial chambers. It is an important step toward protection and enhancement of safety for everyone.

I again commend the hon. member for Fraser Valley for this initiative. It is a tremendous common sense initiative and one that my party, the Progressive Conservative Party of Canada, wholeheartedly endorses. I encourage all members to do likewise.

I cannot imagine a world where our police officers, our firefighters and our ambulance attendants would have to hesitate before giving medical attention to a victim for fear that they might contract a disease. They never hesitate. They do their job immediately. We owe them a lot. Bill C-217 is one thing that we do owe to them.

I believe that we must take this step. This is the responsible thing to do. It is the right thing to do. Each and every one in the PC Party is in favour of the bill.

Blood Samples ActPrivate Members' Business

May 16th, 2001 / 6:25 p.m.

NDP

Peter Stoffer NDP Sackville—Musquodoboit Valley—Eastern Shore, NS

Mr. Speaker, I wish to say first that my brother-in-law is a firefighter at the Vancouver airport and he welcomes the type of initiative by my colleague from Fraser Valley. As we are talking about blood sampling, the other day I had the privilege and honour of donating my 100th donation to the Canadian Blood Services. I encourage all members of parliament and their families, those who are healthy and those who can, to donate blood on a regular basis to help those less fortunate in our society.

Instead of coming up with one of my eloquent speeches, I thought I would just repeat a speech from my former colleague, Mr. Peter Mancini from Cape Breton, who spoke on the bill so eloquently. I thought it would be proper just to repeat what he said.

First, we welcome the member for Fraser Valley for bringing forward this piece of legislation, Bill C-217, which is well intentioned. We commend him for it. It raises some important questions about people who partake in the kind of activity envisioned.

When listening to his remarks we became a little concerned, and the government member raised some of those concerns as well. There is a difference between people who engage in criminal activity and people who in the execution of their professional duties, such as firefighters or peacekeepers, have suffered or have cause to be concerned about whether they have been infected with various forms of hepatitis or HIV.

A great deal of his time was spent referring to the perpetrators of the crime. He was right. When someone has committed an offence, should our police forces or security guards not have a right to find out if they have been infected with some kind of disease when in the execution of their duty, which is the protection of our society, they encounter some activity that has caused them some concern?

The bill is wider and goes further than that. It does not narrow those affected to those involved in fighting crime and to the perpetrators of crime. The legislation says that a person, not a crime fighter or a police officer, may apply to a justice for a warrant authorizing the taking of a sample of blood from another person who is not necessarily the perpetrator of a crime.

There are numerous examples. We can envisage how wide ranging the legislation would be. For example, it would apply to firefighters who in the execution of their duties such as saving an individual from a burning building, came into contact with bodily fluid blood or whatever and may have cause to wonder if they have been infected in the line of their duty with some disease.

The same would apply to health care workers and paramedics. The bill is quite broad. It applies to persons who in their professional capacity may find themselves in that situation. Like the government member, I wonder if the criminal code is the best way to meet the need which is obviously a real concern for the member and the people engaged in those activities.

We in the New Democratic Party intend to support the legislation to at least get it to committee where it can be examined. However we wonder if we might better to look at labour legislation, because we are talking about the health and safety of individuals engaged in the performance of their professional duties, be they nurses, firefighters, policemen, security guards, prison guards, teachers, people in day care centres, et cetera. We are talking about a wide range of professionals and working people who are faced in 2001 with health and safety concerns that we could not possibly have imagined 25 years ago.

We applaud the intent of the legislation. The purpose of the legislation is good. However we wonder if by working collectively through the committee members of the Conservative Party, the Alliance, the Bloc, the NDP and the Liberals, we might find a better way to ensure that this legislation does what the member wants it to do without running into all kinds of hurdles. Working collectively we may all be able to achieve just that.

In addition to wondering whether the criminal code is the appropriate piece of legislation, there are certain civil liberties that have been raised by the government speaker as well.

We may be able to find a way to take the thrust of the legislation out of the criminal code and place it in labour legislation. The government talks about working in tandem with health. We lean toward labour legislation. If we find a way to do that then we may avoid some of the constitutional challenges that could follow as a result of criminal code legislation.

The hon. member in speaking to his bill referred to the perpetrators of crime. However we remind him, and he obviously knows, that this legislation is very wide ranging.

My colleague is a lawyer and a bit of a wordsmith from Nova Scotia, and we deal with words all the time. Subclause 3(b) states that a judge can issue a warrant and it outlines the considerations. Subclause 3(b) goes on to state “by reason of the circumstances by which the applicant came into contact with the bodily substance”. We need to explore that to see exactly what it means. If it is a matter of a criminal code offence, then we know that if in the execution of his or her duties, and the examples were given by the mover of the legislation, a police officer gets stabbed by a needle or gets bitten, these are compelling circumstances.

However for a nurse who works in a hospital in a unit where a number of people suffer from HIV or hepatitis B are those circumstances sufficiently compelling? No one says, as in some of the criminal cases cited by the member, “I bit you. Now you have HIV” or “I have a score to settle with you and I am going to pierce you with a needle”.

How compelling should the circumstances be for the invasion of someone's civil liberties to take a blood sample? We need some clarification on that. By sending the bill to committee, we might very well get the clarification that is required.

In summary there is a serious point raised by the government and the opposition members, and that is the arresting of someone who has not committed a criminal offence. That is a serious matter for all of us to consider, especially in the constitutional challenges.

In Canada one of the things we pride is our freedom: freedom from arbitrary arrest, freedom from arrest without the reading of rights and without knowing what we have done wrong. This is where the criminal aspect of this is different than applying it to the civil aspect, to those engaged in health and safety occupations where no crime has been committed.

We have fought the intent of the legislation. We would like to bring it forward to the committee for further examination. There are some real concerns that we see with it, but we think by working together we will be able to iron them out.

This was originally said in 1999 by our great colleague, Mr. Peter Mancini from Nova Scotia.

Blood Samples ActPrivate Members' Business

6:35 p.m.

Liberal

Walt Lastewka Liberal St. Catharines, ON

Mr. Speaker, the bill proposed by the member for Fraser Valley raises a number of important issues that must be thoroughly examined.

Bill C-217 provides that a justice may issue a warrant authorizing a peace officer to require a qualified medical practitioner to take or cause to be taken by a qualified technician, samples of blood from a person in order to determine whether the person carries the hepatitis B virus, or the hepatitis C virus or human autoimmune deficiency virus if the justice is satisfied that there are reasonable grounds to do so. These reasonable grounds are subsequently enumerated.

At first blush the bill appeals to our desire to help those on the front lines, those individuals who in their daily work confront the possibility of putting their health at risk. We are speaking medical practitioners, firefighters and police officers to name a few.

The Minister of Health, as we all do, appreciates the work that has been done by the emergency responders in Canada. They are an essential component of the Canadian health care system. Health Canada has collaborated with the emergency responders on many occasions leading to the development of a national consensus on guidelines for the establishment of a post exposure notification protocol for emergency responders.

Those who work on the front lines as emergency responders can be exposed to blood and other body fluids in the course of their work. Of concern in this proposed piece of legislation are those injuries that could result in an exposure of blood borne pathogens, namely HIV, hepatitis B and hepatitis C. It must be pointed out that exposure to the blood or blood fluids of an HIV, HBV or HCV infected person does not necessarily result in a transmission of the virus.

In order to properly prevent these exposures and to respond appropriately when an exposure occurs, emergency response organizations need an overall occupational health protocol. That includes immunization against hepatitis B and personal protective equipment such as gloves and safe work practices. If a possible exposure does occur, emergency responders need to be educated on the protocols of how to obtain immediate assessment and follow up.

Bill C-217, a blood samples act, would authorize the drawing of blood samples from individuals who may have accidentally or intentionally exposed frontline emergency providers or a good Samaritan to hepatitis B, hepatitis C or human immunodeficiency virus HIV. After a suspected exposure, an emergency service provider would be permitted to apply to a justice for a warrant. This warrant would authorize a medical practitioner or technician to take a blood sample from the patient in question, tests for the aforementioned diseases and provide test results to the patients and to the emergency service provider. Refusal to submit a blood test could result in a prison term of up to six months.

While we recognize that emergency service providers must act promptly to counteract the negative effects of exposure to serious diseases, it is important to note that previous requests for such testing have been rejected by the courts.

Preventive measures should be taken within hours of exposure. According to Health Canada guidelines published in the Canada communicable disease report, the option to administer post exposure prophylaxis should be established within a few hours. It is unlikely that the legal and medical procedures necessary to draw an authorized blood sample, to test it and to distribute its results could be accomplished within this brief timeframe.

While mandatory blood testing of sources in cases of genuine exposure might assist in making more informed decisions regarding the use of post exposure medications, there would also be the potential for endangering the health of the victim, especially his or her mental health, by breaking the rules on patient confidentiality.

The guidelines referred to previously and established by Health Canada in 1995, in conjunction with firefighters, police and ambulance workers, demonstrate concrete actions taken to address the risks and consequently have already anticipated the objectives of the bill.

Guidelines that ensure emergency responders will be notified quickly regarding exposures obtained in their line of work have been implemented by the provinces of Alberta, Ontario, British Columbia, Saskatchewan and the Northwest Territories and by other regions and hospitals in other jurisdictions.

In 1997 a second protocol outlining assessment, testing and treatment procedures to be used to promote the well-being of health care workers, including firefighters, police and ambulance workers, was released by Health Canada. By following the second protocol, emergency responders will receive up to date care directed toward reducing the effects of an exposure.

The guidelines recommended by Health Canada for emergency responders reflect the same standard of care given to all other health care workers including nurses and physicians. The guidelines recommend testing the source in such cases but always with consent.

By following Health Canada's notification protocols emergency responders can be assured of timely, rational and effective assessment and treatment.

Blood Samples ActPrivate Members' Business

6:40 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Grant McNally Canadian Alliance Dewdney—Alouette, BC

Mr. Speaker, it is a pleasure to join in the debate. I commend my colleague from Fraser Valley for bringing forward this initiative. I thank those who have worked so hard for so long behind the scenes to bring this idea to the floor of the House of Commons.

There seems to be one underlying issue for those who have any hesitation in supporting the bill, that of two conflicting principles: the principle of individual personal autonomy versus personal responsibility.

In objections raised by a few of my colleagues, that is the nub of their argument. They say or have said that we need to be careful of an individual's right and in taking a blood sample we might be impinging on a person's right. The flip side of that argument is that individuals in society need to be responsible for their own actions.

When there is a conflict in this area, which do we choose as legislators? We have the opportunity with Bill C-217 to make a positive change to help those who help others. We have the opportunity to make a change for health care workers, police officers, people in emergency services or those who do something out of the goodness of their hearts. We can do that with the bill. Let us not focus on the aspects that might stop us from moving ahead because there is a greater good in passing the bill.

We are always faced with choices in our lives. As legislators we are faced with the choice of moving ahead with the bill or saying yes, it is a good idea, but let us not do it. I say let us do it. I encourage my colleagues from all parties to move ahead and say yes to Bill C-217.

It needs to be done. The reason it needs to be done is that there are many people in our society who do things out of the goodness of their hearts. When doing so they rarely stop to think about the implications of their good deeds. Those who work in the health services area or are police officers or emergency service workers obviously do think about it. They are trained. They do have protocols.

My colleague from St. Catharines seems to be saying, and I hope I mistook him in some way, that these protocols would provide an extra level of protection. In one way they do, but at the end of the day what needs more protection and was not mentioned by my colleague is the uncertainty that has to be lived with by an individual who has done a good deed and may have accidentally been exposed to hepatitis B, hepatitis C or HIV. That individual has to live with the mental anguish of not knowing. I cannot fully imagine how terrible that is for those who have had to walk that road, thinking about their own families, their children, their lives and their livelihoods and how that one act of goodness done to help another might be the cause of their own demise. That is a terrible thought and that is a terrible place to be in. We can do something about it.

Change happens when individuals seek out change, take a stand and move forward with a vision and with hope on something that is very important to them. Constable Anderson has been very instrumental in behind the scenes work with the bill in terms of developing an organization called FLAG, Front Line and Good Samaritan's Right to Know. I commend her for her good work. Oftentimes it must be frustrating to hear the different debates we have about this conflict of individual rights versus personal responsibility.

At the end of this debate what we need to hold in the forefront of this discussion as legislators is that we want to discourage negative behaviour and encourage positive behaviour in our society for the good of our country, for the good of our citizens and for the well-being of all.

Should we then place the emphasis on those who might commit an act that could endanger the life of another citizen? Should we put that principle above the principle of personal responsibility? I do not think we should in this case, and I think the bill addresses very well that specific concern mentioned by my colleague from the Liberal Party and by other colleagues as well. There would have to be a warrant issued by a judge for the taking of a blood sample in this situation. There is protection built into the legal system so that this would not be abused. There would have to be a good reason for a warrant.

Also for those who have concerns, the warrant can be used just for that specific purpose. Clause 14 of the bill says that:

A sample of blood taken from a person pursuant to a warrant issued under section 5 shall not be analysed for any purpose other than the purpose specified in the warrant.

That is very specific.

This is a well crafted bill that addresses a need and a concern and it should be passed. So many times in this place we hear good ideas, for good causes. We debate both sides and make a decision. In this case I believe we must be compelled to focus on the greater good of those who give of themselves in the line of service. We must focus on that because it is a positive thing to do and it will provide a benefit to our society, to our health care workers and to people who put their lives on the line every single day in every single way that they can. That so often goes unnoticed and unthanked.

It is that selfless giving of individuals day after day in their lines of work that contributes to society and makes it a better place to be. We should not neglect that and pass up the opportunity now. If we let the bill slip away, we will lose an opportunity to do something good that would benefit our country, our people and future generations. For that reason, I ask my colleagues, when considering why they should or should not support the bill, to consider the argument that it is a better thing to focus on personal responsibility and the greater good of our society in passing the bill. While taking into consideration individual personal responsibility, the greater good must be done.

Let us do it. Let us work together and make this happen. We have an opportunity to make a difference and that does not happen too often in this place. We can do it today. Let us move forward and support Bill C-217.

Blood Samples ActPrivate Members' Business

6:50 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Ken Epp Canadian Alliance Elk Island, AB

Mr. Speaker, I will begin by commending my colleague for introducing this bill. It is a very good bill. One of the things that has really impressed me in my years as a member of parliament is that many of the good ideas that come into the Chamber are brought in by private members. These are the people, all of us, who on the weekends and in the weeks out of the House rub shoulders with our constituents. We find out from them what is really important to them. To me that is the essence of representative democracy: to bring to the Chamber the ideas that our electors back home implore us to deal with.

I am very pleased that my colleague has introduced the bill. I am also exceptionally pleased that in our grand lottery scheme he actually had his bill drawn and was then able to somehow persuade that so-called independent committee that it was actually worthy of a debate longer than one hour and worthy of a vote. We will actually be voting on this.

That is truly remarkable and it should not be. If I digress for just a few seconds, Mr. Speaker, I am sure you will not mind. There should not be occasions when members bring forward ideas that they consider important enough to occupy the House's time which are then automatically discarded without resulting in a decision, by vote, of the members here.

Quite a bit has already been said about this bill and why people should support it. If I may, I would like to add my ideas and my argument in favour of supporting the bill.

There are a number of important issues. The one I would underline is the conflict that appears when we have presumed conflicting rights. We have these all the time, no matter how large the society.

Our children are all grown up and have left home, so our little society in our house consists of my wife and myself. Every once in a while we have little conflicts on whether she should get her way or I should get mine if we disagree on something. I have learned over the years to simply compromise and do what she wants, not always but most of the time. It keeps peace in the house. I know if she gets word of what I have said here, I will be in trouble when I get home, but we will debate that further at that stage.

This situation arises in a democracy, in a society, regardless of whether there are two people or 30 million. There will be times when the rights of people collide. How do we evaluate which right takes precedence over the other?

The issue before us today is one of those cases where one does not have to be a very deep-thinking person to realize that it is almost an open and shut case. I know that we want to defend the right of privacy in the country, and justifiably so. We do not want a society where people are looking over our shoulders and watching everything we say, do and think.

Notwithstanding that, we seem to have that situation in the country. We have agencies of the government like the CRTC, for example, which is very involved in determining even which radio stations can exist, what their formats will be and what they can broadcast. That to me is an intrusion on a personal freedom. If people have financial backing and want to have a radio station on a certain theme, they should have the right to proceed. It should not be up to a government bureaucracy to decide that they cannot.

However we have situations like the one before us today where one person, having done the right things, is potentially at risk of contracting a life threatening disease, whereas the other person has the risk of giving a sample of blood or other body tissue that he or she does not want to give so that an evaluation can be made as to whether or not the person who is the victim has been infected.

It seems to me that this is not an issue we have to think very hard about. The rights being protected are worlds apart in magnitude. One is very important and the other one, the necessity of giving a sample of blood or whatever, is a very small loss.

When I was younger I used to donate blood at the Red Cross clinics. It was not very painful to give. In those days we measured things in quarts and gallons. I would go quite regularly and give a quart of blood with no problem.

How can a person say that my rights are being violated if I am asked to give a little vial of blood so that another person can find out whether or not he or she has been infected? To me it is totally clear.

I am going to run out of time very shortly, but I would like to appeal to all members of the House to simply use their intelligence, analytic abilities and independence to vote in favour of this very good bill.

Blood Samples ActPrivate Members' Business

6:55 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bélair)

The time provided for the consideration of private members' business has now expired and the order is dropped to the bottom of the order of precedence on the order paper.

A motion to adjourn the House under Standing Order 38 deemed to have been moved.

Blood Samples ActAdjournment Proceedings

7 p.m.

Progressive Conservative

Bill Casey Progressive Conservative Cumberland—Colchester, NS

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to rise and follow up on my question of February 23 about the Cobequid fish hatchery which served northern Nova Scotia for 60 years and was very much a part of the community. Then along came a new policy by the federal government to divest the fish hatcheries in Nova Scotia, a great new enlightened policy that would result in an expanded fish hatchery through private sector investment. The only problem was the fish hatchery did not survive that private sector divestiture. The company failed and the fish hatchery was wound down to virtually nothing.

It was amazing that when we had such a serious situation with our fisheries and so many different threats to the fisheries the government responded by selling off the fish hatcheries to companies that could not raise the revenue to make them viable. Even right from the very beginning, anybody who looked at the proposals on the divested fish hatcheries knew they would not work. Three hatcheries in Nova Scotia failed and ended up reverting back to the government.

The government wound down the Cobequid fish hatchery at a time when we needed it very badly. Everyone knew the fisheries were at risk. Again, the response was to close the fish hatcheries or sell them off to companies that could not make them survive. The fish hatchery near Oxford, Nova Scotia, served the environment. The fishery provided jobs and was very much a part of the community for decades and decades. Again, it failed and reverted back to the government.

This is a really opportune time for the government to grab the agenda and do something really appropriate.

The inner Bay of Fundy salmon has been designated as a very distinct species of fish which only stays in the Bay of Fundy. Most salmon go to Greenland in the winter and spend time there. However this unique species of fish stays in the inner bay.

Therefore, I would like the minister to consider and even accept the proposal that the Cobequid fish hatchery be dedicated to this endangered species. The government has a responsibility for endangered species. Here is a perfect opportunity to deal with it. We have a fish hatchery that needs to be upgraded and enhanced and we have a need for the fish. It is a perfect opportunity.

I hope the government will respond to this repeated request to upgrade the Cobequid fish hatchery with a very positive answer. It is an opportunity to solve two problems, one of an endangered species and one to deal with the Cobequid fish hatchery, which served our community for so long.

Once again I ask the minister to enhance the Cobequid fish hatchery, reinstate it, bring it back to where it was and help it serve the community like it did for so long?

Blood Samples ActAdjournment Proceedings

7 p.m.

Labrador Newfoundland & Labrador

Liberal

Lawrence O'Brien LiberalParliamentary Secretary to Minister of Fisheries and Oceans

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to talk today on behalf of the Department and Fisheries and Oceans' plan for continuing support of Atlantic salmon conservation.

At one time Fisheries and Oceans Canada operated three mainland Nova Scotia hatcheries principally to enhance Atlantic salmon stocks for aboriginal and recreational fisheries. In October 1997 DFO negotiated an operational agreement and divested these hatcheries to Salmon Care, a not for profit group dedicated to the conservation and sustainable use of Atlantic salmon.

DFO has now consolidated the following programs: the Atlantic Salmon live gene bank, which is a program to maintain inner Bay of Fundy Atlantic salmon and potentially acid rain impacted Atlantic salmon stocks; the rearing of salmon to stock acid impacted rivers; the rearing of the endangered Atlantic whitefish; and support for the integrated Atlantic salmon fisheries management plan.

DFO is currently looking for resources to maintain the facilities at Mersey and Coldbrook for their use for Atlantic salmon and Atlantic whitefish conservation.

Blood Samples ActAdjournment Proceedings

7:05 p.m.

Progressive Conservative

Gerald Keddy Progressive Conservative South Shore, NS

Mr. Speaker, the issue of fish hatcheries is not dissimilar to the issue I am raising this evening. My question is for the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Fisheries and Oceans.

The government has shown the same lack of vision, direction and responsibility toward the issue of salmon and the three Nova Scotia fish hatcheries as it has toward other aspects of the fishery in Atlantic Canada.

I pointed out to the minister on March 2 that Chief Lawrence Paul and others in Nova Scotia have stated that federal negotiators are considering dividing bays in Atlantic Canada between aboriginal and non-aboriginal fishermen. That would be a clearly wrongheaded policy. It would go against the spirit of sharing the fishery, under one set of rules, between aboriginal and non-aboriginal fishermen.

The answer I got from the parliamentary secretary was not satisfactory. It did not speak to my question. I asked it in March and a couple of agreements have been signed since then. Agreements were signed with two Nova Scotia bands just a short time ago, one with the Glooscap band and one with the Pictou Landing band. I commend the government for being able to do that. Those agreements should not be ignored.

However that begs the question: where is the long term policy? What are we doing to prevent another outbreak in a very short period of time, by June 1? What are we doing to prevent another Burnt Church or another problem with the Shubenacadie band? What are we doing to protect the livelihoods of non-native fishermen who have seen licensing fees increase from $70,000 to $125,000? One could typically have bought a licence in LFA 33 for $70,000. For $150,000 to $175,000, one could have bought a licence in LFA 34. The licence that sold for $150,000 before the government started its wrongheaded policy is today selling for $700,000. How can a young man or woman even begin to imagine buying their father's fishing licence and entering the fishery today? It is impossible.

We have spent $180 million on efforts with first nations issues. My party and I are fully in favour of settling issues with first nations, signing modern day treaties, reconciling the situation and moving forward together in a new society. This type of legislation from the government does not achieve that. This type of short term policy and this type of decision making do not achieve that. It is time we addressed this. We must have one fishery, one set of rules and one opening date for all commercial fishermen. Nothing else is acceptable.

Blood Samples ActAdjournment Proceedings

7:05 p.m.

Labrador Newfoundland & Labrador

Liberal

Lawrence O'Brien LiberalParliamentary Secretary to Minister of Fisheries and Oceans

Mr. Speaker, thank you for the opportunity to address the issue of whether fishing areas should be split into native and non-native areas.

We must all keep in mind that aboriginal groups and the commercial sector want the same things. They want a sustainable fishery, prosperity, and safe and vibrant communities. That is what the federal fisheries team is working toward. The government is working toward providing first nations with access through the issuance of commercial licences. These licences are subject to the same rules as all other commercial licences. There is no differentiation between aboriginal and non-aboriginal fishers.

We are not establishing separate fishing zones or different rules for different groups and will not do so unless all parties agree. Such a proposition is not the way to foster co-operation and coexistence. Creating two classes of fishers does not serve the purpose of managing fisheries resources.

Blood Samples ActAdjournment Proceedings

7:05 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bélair)

The motion to adjourn the House is now deemed to have been adopted. Accordingly the House stands adjourned until tomorrow at 10 a.m. pursuant to Standing Order 24(1).

(The House adjourned at 7.10 p.m.)