Debates of Oct. 1st, 2002

Kyoto Protocol

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, the ministers at this moment are dealing with their provincial counterparts. They have had many meetings so far. A meeting is being held at this moment with industry and other possible partners. A meeting will be held at the end of this month between provincial ministers and federal ministers, and we intend to have a plan.

There will be a vote before the end of the year on the ratification.

Many countries have implemented or have voted for Kyoto without any plans at all. Here in Canada we have had discussions for months and years. We will have a plan and we will proceed before the end of the year with a vote in the House of Commons.

[Stephen Harper, Canadian Alliance, Leader of the Opposition]

Mr. Speaker, the government has already had five years to work on a plan and it has failed to deliver. The government has not told Canadians what the cost of Kyoto will be and reportedly the cost of Kyoto has even been withheld from the cabinet.

Will the government come clean and table its own estimates as to what the costs of Kyoto will be for ordinary Canadians?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, the opposition always asks us to consult before moving. We are doing consultation. Everybody would be very disappointed with us if we were to just say what is the end result.

We are having consultations. We will develop the plan in consultation. We will make it public. After that parliament will vote on it and the country will have 10 years to implement it.

[Stephen Harper, Canadian Alliance, Leader of the Opposition]

Mr. Speaker, we are not just saying that the government should consult before moving. We are saying that it should not move until it knows where it is going.

In the case of the Kyoto accord, the Liberal government keeps feeding Canadians unfounded rhetoric. This accord will have devastating consequences for our economy. Canadians deserve a clear explanation.

How is the Kyoto accord going to work, and how much will it cost Canadians?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, this is not the first time that the government has had to act in the public interest. We acted in its interest when we eliminated lead from gasoline. People said that it would be disastrous for the oil industry. It was done without any harm to anyone.

In my own riding, everyone was afraid because there were new standards for the six paper mills in the Mauricie valley, and they were going to shut down if stringent anti-pollution standards were enforced. The measures were enforced, the six companies are prospering, and the region's ecology is the better for it.

Finance

[Grant Hill, Canadian Alliance, Macleod, AB]

Mr. Speaker, the Liberal Party's last budget was tabled in the fall of 2001. According to the Prime Minister, the next budget will be tabled in 2003. We cannot wait that long, considering the huge costs included in the Speech from the Throne.

Why does the Prime Minister not table a budget this fall?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Finance will decide when a budget shall be tabled. A very important matter for our government is the promise I made to meet with provincial premiers to discuss the issue of health early in the new year. It might be wise to meet with the premiers before tabling a budget. This is why we may postpone the budget from December to February, so as to be in a better position to provide the Minister of Finance with every available option.

[Grant Hill, Canadian Alliance, Macleod, AB]

Mr. Speaker, the throne speech has 59 promises in it, some, of course, recycled. We deserve to know what these promises will cost. That means a budget. A return to an annual budget in fact would be real nice.

Could Canada have a budget this year to cost out this Prime Minister's legacy promises, yes or no?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, we have a pretty good record. We have had five consecutive balanced budgets in Canada.

We had a $42 billion deficit from the last Conservative government administration and we have managed to produce a balanced budget. There will be another balanced budget because we have good administration on this side of the House of Commons.

Kyoto Protocol

[Gilles Duceppe, Bloc, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

Mr. Speaker, at the Johannesburg summit, the Prime Minister said that Parliament would be called upon to ratify the Kyoto protocol before the holiday season. This firm commitment does not, however, appear in the throne speech. There is instead mention of a resolution before the end of the year.

Could the Prime Minister tell us clearly whether or not Parliament is going to ratify the Kyoto protocol before we adjourn for the holiday season?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, I said that there would be a vote on the ratification of Kyoto in the House of Commons before the end of the current year.

[Gilles Duceppe, Bloc, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

Mr. Speaker, in the Speech from the Throne, the government says the following, in connection with the Kyoto protocol, “As part of the Kyoto protocol, Canada agreed to obligations to reduce greenhouse gas emissions by 2012”.

If the Prime Minister is really committed to ratifying the Kyoto protocol, why does the throne speech refer to “obligations” without specifying “all obligations”? With such wording, is the Prime Minister not reneging on his commitments?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, I have said and say again, it is the Canadian government's intention to respect the criteria, which means that, by 2012, we will have reduced Canada's CO

2

emissions by 6% compared to the 1990 level.

[Bernard Bigras, Bloc, Rosemont—Petite-Patrie, QC]

Mr. Speaker, yesterday the Minister of the Environment said that he felt it was possible that we might not meet the objectives for reductions in greenhouse gas emissions set out in the Kyoto protocol.

In making this statement, is the Minister of the Environment not announcing in advance that he is giving up, that he already accepts that we might not reach the objectives that were set, when in fact he should be the one leading the offensive, motivating the industry? He should do his part and state clearly that, in the end, we will fully respect the objectives of the Kyoto protocol.

[David Anderson, Liberal, Minister of the Environment]

Mr. Speaker, I am fully confident that we will meet the objective of 6% below the 1990 levels by the year 2010. I am also confident about the years 2008 to 2012.

[Bernard Bigras, Bloc, Rosemont—Petite-Patrie, QC]

Mr. Speaker, is the Minister of the Environment not aware that the message he is sending gives hope to those who oppose the Kyoto protocol, rather than setting the bar higher and letting them know that the only choice for the government is to fully enforce the commitments contained in the Kyoto protocol?

[David Anderson, Liberal, Minister of the Environment]

Mr. Speaker, as I just mentioned, we will reach the Prime Minister's objective and that of the Government of Canada. If other interests in Canada oppose this, it is a free country. However, as far as we are concerned, the Government of Canada will reach the objective.

[Alexa McDonough, NDP, Halifax, NS]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Prime Minister.

After five years of foot dragging on the path to Kyoto ratification, the Prime Minister finally in Johannesburg made an unequivocal commitment to ratify, but some weasel words snuck into yesterday's throne speech which referred to a government resolution on the issue of ratifying Kyoto, creating renewed ambiguity.

Will the Prime Minister allay concerns about the weasel words and state unequivocally today that the government will ratify the Kyoto accord before the end of the year?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, it is a technicality because the ratification is an act of the government, not of Parliament. However, we will consult Parliament before the government ratifies.

[Alexa McDonough, NDP, Halifax, NS]

Mr. Speaker, the concerns do not stop there. Yesterday the health minister stated that she could not make a decision about the Kyoto ratification until she saw the implementation plan.

Here is the problem: her colleague, the environment minister, said yesterday that he would not present a plan before the vote on ratification.

In Johannesburg the Prime Minister said “we are finalizing an implementation plan that will permit us to achieve the objectives of the Kyoto Accord.”

I ask the Prime Minister again, when will the implementation plan be brought forward and shared with Canadians?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, as I explained earlier, there will be a meeting of the responsible ministers and their provincial counterparts before the end of this month to look at the plans to see what can be done collectively to achieve the goals that we have for 2012.

Of course there is always debate in my government, and it is normal. It is good because I have good ministers and they want to express their views. However, at the end of the day when the government makes a decision, the decision is a decision of the government.

[Joe Clark, Progressive Conservative, Calgary Centre, AB]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Prime Minister.

I placed on the order paper a motion that would establish a special joint committee of Parliament to allow provinces, environmentalists, industry, consumers and other interested Canadians the opportunity to present their views on the impact of the ratification or non-ratification of the Kyoto protocol.

Will the Prime Minister support the establishment of such a joint committee? Will he make available to us the relevant information, including the implementation plan and his government's regional, sectoral and other impact analysis?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, I said there will be a debate before the end of the year and there will be a vote.

At this moment the work is being done with the provinces and industry on that subject. There will be ratification if it is approved by the House of Commons. The implementation of the plan will be done between 2002 and 2012.

[Joe Clark, Progressive Conservative, Calgary Centre, AB]

Mr. Speaker, if Parliament is to vote, it would be useful if it had the facts. Again, my question is for the Prime Minister. The member for LaSalle—Émard said about the Kyoto protocol:

Canadians are entitled to know what those costs are, what they're going to be asked to bear, and that it is going to be done in a way that is equitable and fair right across the country, region by region.

Does the Prime Minister agree with that statement by his colleague, and if so, will he table in the House the implementation plan and the regional, sectoral and other impact analysis?

[David Anderson, Liberal, Minister of the Environment]

Mr. Speaker, as has been made clear a number of times in the House, the work is ongoing with the provinces, territories and industry. We believe that we should have a made in Canada plan that brings in all parts of the country in creating the plan and, of course, ultimately implementing that plan.

This is not an issue which is forced upon the provinces or territories by the federal government. Indeed, people from all parts of the country represented in the House will have an opportunity to vote on that very question of ratification.