Debates of Oct. 1st, 2002

Resumption of debate on Address in Reply

[Sarmite Bulte, Liberal, Parkdale—High Park, ON]

Madam Speaker, again obviously the Speech from the Throne was listening to the concerns of the member's constituents. We have talked about addressing that issue. We have talked about bringing in new legislation to look at showing that members are accountable for their actions. We all are accountable. If we are not accountable, we will not be elected, first and foremost.

Second, again, if we look at the Speech from the Throne we will find that the issue was addressed. We are looking at reforming our lobbyist legislation. I was at a recent meeting of APEC at which the Mexican members of the APEC business advisory council asked me how we deal with our lobbyists. They asked what guidance can Canada give them. This is a brand new area for Mexico. Again, Canada is being seen as a leader in this area. It is a wonderful thing to be Canadian, to be proud of what we have accomplished to date and what we will continue to do. I also would like to remind members that the Prime Minister said this morning that we have a lot of work to do, so let us roll up our sleeves and start that work.

[Norman E. Doyle, Progressive Conservative, St. John's East, NL]

Madam Speaker, the hon. member talks about competitive cities and health care. Currently in Newfoundland we have a royal commission holding public hearings on our status and our future prospects in Confederation. Some 53 years after joining Confederation, we have the highest economic growth rate in the nation. We had it this year, last year and the year before that, so we are doing quite well, but we are still the poorest province with the highest unemployment rate in all of Canada. I am sure the hon. member would agree that there seems to be something wrong with that picture.

One of the reasons for our lack of economic progress is the clawback provision in the current equalization formula, which keeps cities and provinces held back. Fully 80% of all revenues generated are clawed back by the federal government through equalization payments. Under that formula, it is impossible for any have-not province to make any headway, and most of the Atlantic area is have-not provinces. So we are going to have poor cities and provinces with poor health care as a result of some of these things. One of the main holdbacks is the equalization formula. We need a reduction in or the elimination of the current equalization formula.

In the throne speech, no reference was made to helping the poorer provinces find some kind of equality within Confederation. Would the hon. member care to comment?

[Sarmite Bulte, Liberal, Parkdale—High Park, ON]

Madam Speaker, I would like to thank the hon. member for his question. I do know that the royal commission is currently being undertaken in Newfoundland and Labrador. In fact, there was extensive coverage on the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation earlier this week about that task force. I am sure we are all looking forward to those recommendations.

One of the things the member asked about is how we encourage economic growth and continued growth. Again, I think we did address that. One of the things I am always so pleased to see is the role that needs to be played by small and medium-sized businesses and entrepreneurs. Again, it is going to have to be thanks to my colleague from Mississauga West who headed a Prime Minister's task force on youth entrepreneurs. We are dealing with youth on the entrepreneurial side and looking at small and medium-sized enterprises and entrepreneurs in promoting our growth.

Going back to arts and culture, we also have to look at the role arts and culture play in vibrant communities like Newfoundland and Labrador. Those days of industrial manufacturing plants are not there any more, but--

[The Acting Speaker (Ms. Bakopanos)]

Resuming debate, the hon. member for Mississauga West.

[Steve Mahoney, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Transport]

Madam Speaker, it is of course a pleasure to be back. We have been back for two days. After just a couple of days of getting into this, it feels like we never left.

I think it is an important time for the government. It is an important time for Canada. In fact, it is an important time for this Parliament because of all the discussions that take place around the various issues and the direction.

We all know that the Prime Minister has set a target that is a countdown to sixteen and a half or seventeen months until he retires. Also, a number of the parties in this establishment are either currently undergoing or soon will be undergoing or may yet again be undergoing leadership reviews. One never knows what could happen opposite if they decided they were not particularly happy with the third or fourth leader they have had in their reincarnation and their changing of the stripes, if you will.

However, that is not what this is about. This is about a vision for the future of the country, a vision for the young people that my friend from Parkdale—High Park mentioned, and about what the Prime Minister and the government want to see happen that is doable.

Many members have talked about health care, so I will leave that one on the table. I would like to focus on the urban issues, particularly on the infrastructure statement in the throne speech. I think it is critical.

There are those of us who have relationships with the other levels of government, involvement with our councils. We heard the hon. gentleman opposite say that he has something like 107 local governments. It is mind boggling and there should probably be a review of that. In any event, obviously those who have a relationship with those local governments would appreciate the fact that the Prime Minister and the throne speech have addressed the issue of long-term sustainability in the area of funding infrastructure.

While we are quite proud of the infrastructure programs that we have had with the government since 1993, I frankly think there were some things that perhaps we should have done differently. I think the initial infrastructure program was perhaps too broad. The definition of infrastructure allowed for various things like community centres and arenas, all of which are important in a community, to be built with the infrastructure dollars when in fact perhaps they should have been concentrated on what I call core infrastructure, which would lead to the development of clean and safe water, sewage disposal, roads, a national highway program, urban transit, high-speed rail transit, bus lanes and things of that nature. In my view, a nationally funded infrastructure program should focus on those areas.

The recent strategic infrastructure program of $2 billion in fact is very specific and much more strategic in that area. We have not seen the numbers. Members opposite can criticize if there are no numbers in a throne speech, but I think we all know that is just for theatre. That is so they can make a point and perhaps be interviewed on the issue. Hard numbers are not put in a throne speech. It sets out the philosophy, the direction and the commitments that the government, the Prime Minister and the cabinet wish to see happen.

They have said that there will be a ten-year infrastructure program. It is my hope that it will be a substantial amount and that it will be tied to matching dollars from the provincial sector. As well, I would like to see, because this is something I thought we did very much right in the first program, a one-third matching opportunity for municipalities. Or in fact they could perhaps arrange for a one-third contribution from the private sector if there was some role for the private sector to play in that particular program. That made sense. The reason is that it basically tripled the amount of money that was going toward infrastructure.

I am hopeful that we will see a substantial commitment in this ten-year fund, that municipalities will be able to look at what most of them look at, which is a five-year capital program, not really ten, and will be able to look five years out into the future and say that they have some infrastructure needs that are core to the growth of their communities, to the safety of what they deliver in terms of sewer and water systems, and in speeding up and eliminating the congestion that so many of our large metropolitan areas are facing, the gridlock we are facing certainly in the greater Toronto area, in the city of Mississauga that I hail from. Hopefully we can help with that project referred to very often in the media as smart growth. It would be very smart if this money were used to help in the movement of people and goods, et cetera, throughout these dense areas.

I am hopeful we will see a substantial commitment, a three-way split and a long term. Who would disagree with that? In fact it is interesting that in the debates in this place about the throne speech what we hear are complaints that the government has not done something in the past or it is just a promise. The reality is that it is a blueprint.

I would like members to stand up and be honest and tell us what it is in the throne speech that they actually do not like. I find it very hard to believe that anyone would be against a long-term, ten-year commitment to infrastructure and working with our provinces and municipalities. If they are, they should say that they are. What I do hear is them yelling “How are we going to pay for it?” The fact is that it is a budgetary process and members here know that the budgetary process will outline how it will be paid for in the many months to come.

Let me move from infrastructure to the housing commitment, something in which I have been very much involved. As parliamentary secretary for crown corporations, I had the opportunity to work closely with Canada Mortgage and Housing and Canada Lands, both crown corporations. I would recommend that all members take the time to look at some of the success stories of our crown corporations. These companies actually make money. People would be shocked.

In fact, let me take members to Alberta, to Garrison Woods in downtown Calgary. It is a development that was formerly a military site. It was taken over and transferred to Canada Lands. It put a development project in place and sold the lots to builders. The Canada Lands development company put restrictions on what could be built, how it could be built, and how it fit into the community, saving the trees. It is an absolute landmark of a development project in this country and it has received national recognition with a Grand SAM award from the Canadian Home Builders' Association. In fact people come from all over the world to find out how in the world the Garrison Woods project got developed. There are 1,600 houses in phase one. Not one of those doors is further than five minutes from a bus stop, yet there are no buses within the community. It is absolutely brilliant modern-age thinking, and it is a Canadian government crown corporation that has led the way. This stuff exists.

In the throne speech, we have said that we are going to extend the housing program. That means we are going to add to the $680 million that was put into affordable housing right across the country and we are going to extend the mandate to the Canada Lands and the Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporations to find new and creative ways to deliver affordable housing to Canadians. If someone on that side of the House would like to stand and say they object to that, I would love to hear that statement today. I would be completely incredulous, because these are true Canadian success stories.

I will tell members what is most interesting. I was in Calgary last week and local Calgarians are astounded to find out that it actually is Canada Lands, a division of the government, a crown corporation of the federal government, that has delivered Garrison Woods. There is another project coming in on a military site in Edmonton.

I am sorry that I am out of time, because I wanted to spend several minutes talking about Kyoto and about the fact that there appears to be some kind of rebellion being led by Premier Ralph Klein and some of the folks in Alberta and our friends opposite who refuse to accept the fact that we do have a climate change problem. I have heard them say it.

They do not believe that climate change is the problem when in fact every scientist, environmentalist, expert and frankly, most average Canadians understand it is a serious problem. The government is committed to it and there will be a plan in place before Parliament votes to ratify Kyoto later this year.

[Roy H. Bailey, Canadian Alliance, Souris—Moose Mountain, SK]

Madam Speaker, I would like to ask the hon. member about the grants and matching grants of which he just spoke.

Has he ever experienced what we experienced in our province, particularly in the way of grants to agriculture where they were 60% federal and the provincial government would put up 40%?

Like the member from Newfoundland said, provincial governments have different amounts of income. Some are have not provinces like the province I represent. Would it mean that if the Province of Saskatchewan ran out of what it set aside it would not get any more grants even though the eligibility requirements were there? Matching grants can also be discriminatory grants and I have lived with them for 20 years in agriculture. I can assure the member that the idea of matching grants, with the sole criteria that they must be met, is probably not the right way to go if we are looking at Canada as a whole.

[Steve Mahoney, Liberal, Mississauga West, ON]

Madam Speaker, in all honesty the member raises a point. When the criteria is put in place for the infrastructure then there may be some flexibility required as we have had in the past in other areas such as the $680 million housing money. We designed that program so that provinces who were unable to perhaps match the cash, it was $25,000 per housing unit, hopefully would be given the option of matching what is called a rent supplement.

They would not have to put up the hard cash on the table to make the deal work and to get the housing under construction. However they would have to commit to assist and work with the municipal sector to create a social housing waiting list to occupy the house thereby reducing the waiting list and benefiting the municipality. They would also have to agree to provide some form of rent supplement so that they would receive the cost of renting a new home down to a more affordable level. I have no problem with some flexibility but the principle is to let us leverage the federal dollars to maximize every project that we enter into.

[Bob Mills, Canadian Alliance, Red Deer, AB]

Madam Speaker, I could not help but rise when I heard the member talk about Kyoto and the environment. Where in the throne speech does it say that the government cares about pollution? All of us care about the environment and about pollution.

The government, in an obvious case in British Columbia in the Fraser Valley, had an opportunity to do something about air pollution. There is no mention of that in the throne speech. I wonder if the member understands what Kyoto is all about. Does he think it is about pollution?

[Steve Mahoney, Liberal, Mississauga West, ON]

Madam Speaker, it is about the future of the planet and just about every aspect of the environment, the air we breath and the quality of life we will leave for our children.

It is also about an absolute refusal led by, and I am sorry to say because I am generally a big supporter of business, a business coalition that is putting ads out that are intended to do nothing but frighten Canadians, that somehow we will lose hundreds of thousands of jobs and billions of dollars in investment. These people should realize that the impact to the oil industry is only one aspect.

Let us take a look at what we can do to give people better incentives to better insulate their homes. I ask the member opposite as he chirps at me, why is it that at the gasoline pump the most expensive gasoline we can buy will purport to reduce the emissions from vehicles by 15%? The oil industry is saying, buy our more expensive brand and we will reduce emissions. That tells me that something is askew in terms of the marketing and perhaps the goal of some of the people in that industry.

By and large through the leadership shown by the Prime Minister in his statement to ratify Kyoto, to bring the debate into this place, I believe business will see that there are many new technologies and new ways that we can leave a safer, cleaner planet for our children.

[Norman E. Doyle, Progressive Conservative, St. John's East, NL]

Madam Speaker, I will be sharing my time with the member for New Brunswick Southwest.

I am pleased to say a few words on the throne speech debate. A wide ranging debate like the one before us affords all of us the opportunity to raise a number of issues of importance to the people in St. John's East, to the people generally in the province and in the nation as a whole.

In my opinion this was a low-key, often vague throne speech. If there was a bright spot in the throne speech, and there was one bright spot and it deserves full marks, it would be the commitment to significantly increase the child tax benefit for poor families. I hope the government means it when it says that the increase in the child tax benefit will be significant. I am not encouraged by the fact that the last two throne speeches saw only 25% of the promises that had been made put into effect, implemented and finding their way into the nation's budget.

The child tax benefit is important to a lot of poor families. Child poverty rates in the nation are far too high for any western industrialized country. We all know what happened back in the nineties in the rush to balance the budgets back then. The Liberal government cut transfers to the provinces for the various health and social service programs that were designed to help poor families in particular.

I am sure all members will remember as it was only about a year and a half ago when the government cut deeply into the employment insurance program. This devastated whole regions dependent upon seasonal employment. The fishery was very important as was forestry and mining. The government cut deeply into those areas dependent upon seasonal employment. As a result poor families became poorer and more numerous. Child poverty increased nearly 20%. That was far too high.

Being a member of the committee that travelled the nation I will never forget the presentations made by people in every province between British Columbia and Newfoundland and Labrador with regard to poverty and homelessness. I found out something very important. Poverty has a real face in this nation. It is not fictional. It has a real look to it. It is on the faces of people on fixed incomes trying to make ends meet. It is on the faces of people who have to raise families on minimum wage. It is on the faces of single mothers who cannot find work, and even if they could find work they cannot find adequate day care programs that will enable them to work.

Poverty is real in this nation. Therefore any kind of significant increase in the national child benefit would be welcomed by a lot of families. We should constantly keep this before us. This is the House in which we passed a resolution to abolish child poverty by the year 2000. The year 2003 is fast approaching so we have a lot of ground to make up.

If the Prime Minister would like to have a legacy, for which he will be remembered and people will build monuments and statues of him, he should spend the next 18 months in office solving the child poverty issue and the issue of homelessness in this nation.

Health care is a very important matter in the throne speech. The Prime Minister proposes to meet the premiers on this issue and promises more money. Well, it is about time that he met the premiers on the business of the nation. He is long overdue in putting more money into the health care system.

The health care system back in my province is in a shambles at the moment. Doctors have walked out. They are the lowest paid in the nation and their employer is the most cash-strapped provincial government. The government balanced the nation's books. Nobody can deny that. It did balance the nation's books. The cuts to health care crushed the books of many of the provincial governments.

Simply put, our health care system needs reform, but it needs more money as well. Canadians have made it clear in public opinion poll after public opinion poll that they want the government to do something about it. No matter what changes and reforms are made to the system, it will require more money.

Roy Romanow will be issuing his report sometime in November and none of us would expect that report to make recommendations without making recommendations for an influx or infusion of money into the health care system. No matter what changes are recommended, it will require more money. If the federal government wants to establish national standards in this critical area of national policy, it has to be willing to pay a greater share of the costs involved. Simply put, if one does not pay the piper, one will not be able to call the tune.

The speech promises another infrastructure program for cities. This is the third infrastructure program we have heard about. We had a $2 billion program, a second $2 billion program and now we have a promise of a third infrastructure program announced by the government. So far, my province of Newfoundland and Labrador has seen only $50 million over a five year period to provide infrastructure for a couple of hundred communities.

My riding in St. John's and area needs a federal commitment of about $33 million to finance the sewage collection and treatment system required to clean up St. John's Harbour, one of the most polluted harbours in all of Canada. Just a simple, small commitment by the federal government for $33 million. The provincial government has made its commitment. The municipalities have made their commitments. The federal government has yet to pony up that money and it has had two $2 billion infrastructure programs. We are still waiting for the federal government to pony up a little bit of money to clean up one of the most beautiful harbours in the oldest city in North America.

Another matter of vital concern not mentioned in the throne speech is the need to reduce or eliminate the clawback provisions of the equalization program which I brought up a few moments ago in a question. Newfoundland and Labrador has one of the highest growth rates in all of the nation this year, last year and the year before that. Yet, we are still one of the poorest provinces with one of the highest unemployment rates. Something is definitely wrong with that picture. If there is a province with a high growth rate, it should not have have-not status almost permanently, but the lion's share of all these new revenues are clawed back to Ottawa and as a result the province cannot move ahead.

[Jean-Yves Roy, Bloc, Matapédia—Matane, QC]

Madam Speaker, I listened to what my colleague had to say about the Speech from the Throne. He talked, among other things, about the national child benefit. He also mentioned employment insurance and fishing, since he comes from an area where fishing is important.

I have not seen anything about fishing in the throne speech. With regard to the national child benefit, I agree that it must be increased. This is something that should be done.

However, why have these people become poor? That is the question that we must ask ourselves. Since 1993, people from so-called remote areas, like the one represented by the member, have become considerably poorer, and there is a reason for that. It is, among other things, because of cuts made to the employment insurance plan. Does my colleague think that rural areas have been fairly dealt with in the throne speech that was presented to us?

[Norman E. Doyle, Progressive Conservative, St. John's East, NL]

Madam Speaker, I thank my colleague for his very good question. Of course not. They have not been fairly dealt with in the throne speech, which is why we currently have a royal commission holding public hearings in Newfoundland and Labrador on our status and our future prospects within Confederation.

We could not agree more with the member. Newfoundland has been in Confederation for 53 years, has had the highest growth rate in the nation for the last two or three years and it is still a poor province with a very high unemployment rate. It all goes back to one point, which is affecting Quebec and all of Atlantic Canada, and that is that we cannot make any kind of economic progress in smaller provinces if we do not have some kind of recognition by the federal government that we need an adjustment in the equalization formula. Fully 80% of all revenues from the development of our natural resources is clawed back to the federal government. Under that kind of formula it is impossible for a small province to make any kind of economic headway. We need a reduction in or elimination of the equalization program.

Another area which I never had a chance to deal with is the fishery. The Speech from the Throne makes absolutely no reference to the fishery, as well as to our fish stocks on our continental shelf outside the 200 mile limit. Our fellow NAFO members do not enforce conservation rules as we are all very well aware. An item that is receiving a lot of debate in my province is the fact that NAFO members do not enforce conservation rules for their fleets fishing on the nose and tail of the Grand Banks and the Flemish Cap. Even if the federal government made some kind of commitment to help the province out in that regard it would be a step in the right direction toward establishing my province as a have province at some point in the future.

[Roy H. Bailey, Canadian Alliance, Souris—Moose Mountain, SK]

Madam Speaker, does the member believe that if the federal government increased the present almost 14% for health care that the provinces should then have to report back as to how that money was spent?

[Norman E. Doyle, Progressive Conservative, St. John's East, NL]

Madam Speaker, I am not sure I understood the hon. member's question. I believe he is asking that if the federal government made money available should the provinces have to report back to the federal government on how these health care dollars were spent.

It is difficult for the federal government to demand that kind of reporting from the provinces given the fact that the federal government of late has not been paying the piper. I therefore do not believe it is in any position to call the tune.

However I believe it is reasonable to expect the provinces that receive money from the federal government for health care and social services to have some kind of reporting mechanism. I am sure the provinces, being the responsible groups that they are in spending money as wisely as they have, would have no objection to that kind of arrangement.

[Greg Thompson, Progressive Conservative, New Brunswick Southwest, NB]

Madam Speaker, prorogation was completely unnecessary as, of course, was the Speech from the Throne. However I will say that one of the few benefits of the Speech from the Throne and proroguing the House was your reappointment to the Chair. I fully support the Prime Minister. It was a good choice and we wish you well in your continued capacity.

[The Acting Speaker (Ms. Bakopanos)]

I have honestly been trying to use this line. Flattery will get you nowhere.

[Greg Thompson, Progressive Conservative, New Brunswick Southwest, NB]

Madam Speaker, those are the exact words I was waiting for because I intend to beat up on the government a little, so I guess that would be expected anyway.

The throne speech was completely unnecessary. To point this out and to reinforce that fact, almost half the promises from the 2001 throne speech have not been dealt with, 18 of 39 promises have not even started, 12 are partially completed and only 9 have actually been fulfilled.

This is all about the Prime Minister attempting to get some favourable air time. I believe that many members of the House are absolutely correct when they compare the throne speech to the Sears wish book. I am sure you, Madam Speaker, can remember looking through that book as a young child hoping and wishing that some of the things that you saw would actually be under the tree come Christmas morning. Well the reality is that the Prime Minister has given no consideration to how any of this will be paid for.

The throne speech is a regurgitation of many things that the government has spoken about over the years but has managed to sidestep or completely dishonour. I only have to go through red books one, two and three. All three editions have a familiar theme: broken promises and promises unfulfilled. Let us go through some of them so we will have an idea of what some of these recycled promises might be.

Many of the promises are recycled from previous throne speeches. One example is a resolution to the issues of our aboriginal people. We have heard that before. We also have heard before about support for children in poverty. More children are living in poverty today than when the government took office. The control of greenhouse emissions. The government side cannot even control its own gas emissions let alone greenhouse gas emissions.

What about increased support for foreign aid? Foreign aid now is exactly 0.2% of our GDP. It is the lowest it has ever been in the history of the country and it is getting worse, not better.

Mr. Speaker, could you clarify how much time I have left?

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bélair)]

I would inform the hon. member for New Brunswick Southwest that he will still have six minutes in his speech when debate resumes tomorrow on the Speech from the Throne.

It being 6.30 p.m., pursuant to an order made on Monday, September 30, the House will now move to the consideration of government business No. 1.

Iraq

[Don Boudria, Liberal, Minister of State and Leader of the Government in the House of Commons]

moved:

That this House take note of the international situation concerning Iraq.

[Bill Graham, Liberal, Minister of Foreign Affairs]

Mr. Speaker, dear colleagues, I am pleased that the House has decided to have a debate on the issue of Iraq. It is an honour for me to launch this debate. I will share my time with my colleague, the Minister of National Defence, with whom I am proud to work on such an important issue for Canadians.

Let me put things clearly from the outset: the tension that currently prevails throughout the world is a direct consequence of the persistent refusal of the Iraqi government to comply with its obligations toward the international community, under the terms of the resolution of the UN security council.

For the past eleven years, President Saddam Hussein has continually showed indefensible contempt for the demands of the international community and for his own people. His past actions and his current stubbornness have imposed tremendous suffering on the people of Iraq. His defiance of international sanctions has resulted in a dismal standard of living in Iraq.

Under the terms of resolution 687 of the UN security council, which was passed in April 1991 and which put an end to military operations after the invasion of Kuweit by Iraq, the latter unconditionally agreed to the elimination, under international monitoring, of all its weapons of mass destruction and all its ballistic missiles, and it also allowed inspections by the United Nations to ensure compliance.

In spite of this official acceptance, Iraq refused to comply. Iraqi officials have systematically tried to hide their arms programs and to fool UN inspectors. While significant components of Iraqi programs relating to weapons of mass destruction and to the development of missiles were found and destroyed, the work of UN inspectors was never completed.

At this point in time, we must all do our utmost to ensure that Iraq understands that its compliance with these resolutions is not optional. It is not a matter for negotiation or mediation. There is no need, as some have suggested, for other UN member states to mediate on behalf of Iraq. As a member state, Iraq has full access to the United Nations, including the good offices of the secretary general himself, who has tried throughout to bring this crisis to a peaceful solution.

The government of Iraq is aware as to what is required. It understands the link between compliance and the lifting of sanctions, as laid out in Security Council resolutions 687 and 1284. We recognize that the sanctions issue is a difficult one, and our committee studied this some years ago. It raises painful questions about the effect of sanctions on ordinary Iraqi citizens.

However let us also remember that Iraq has always had the option of ending sanctions by complying with the Security Council resolutions rather than by continuing to subvert them. It has smuggled oil out of Iraq in order to generate revenues but not to meet the real and urgent needs of the Iraqi people. These revenues have instead been allocated to weapons programs and to reinforcing the structures of authoritarian rule. At various times the government of Iraq has placed its own restrictions on oil sales and embargoed imports from other countries, including Canada, without regard for the dire needs of the population.

The world has been frustrated with the lack of progress on this issue, to the point where over the summer months we were all concerned with the possibility of unilateral action being engaged by the United States, under the leadership of President Bush.

At that time we stated publicly and repeated that the appropriate forum for discussion and authorization of such action was the United Nations Security Council. The Prime Minister himself conveyed this message to President Bush when he met him in Detroit and indicated clearly the preference of the Canadian people.

As Secretary General Kofi Annan stated in his address to the General Assembly:

--when states decide to use force to deal with broader threats to international peace and security, there is no substitute for the unique legitimacy provided by the United Nations.

For this reason Canada, and much of the world, welcomed President Bush's commitment to the UN General Assembly that the United States would work with the Security Council in resolving this serious threat. We took to heart the challenge set out by President Bush. Now we must show that the UN can in fact assume its proper role and demonstrate its effectiveness by resolving this crisis. We must give it the opportunity to do so.

I met with Iraq's minister of foreign affairs, Mr. Naji Sabri, in New York on September 17. I welcomed Iraq's decision to accept the return of UN's weapons inspectors. I told him that his government must accept the return of the inspectors as early as possible and that it must work with UNMOVIC openly and unconditionally. I added that world opinion was skeptical of the government of Iraq's assurances because of the long history of its obstruction and its failures to comply with Security Council resolutions.

Mr. Sabri assured me that Iraq wanted the sanctions lifted so that it could return to the family of nations. However given Iraq's track record, we cannot accept these assurances just by themselves.

It is for this reason that we have supported the United States and the United Kingdom in their efforts to obtain a strong and clear Security Council resolution that would achieve two vital purposes: first, to provide Iraq with a fair and final opportunity to comply with the UN's inspections and therefore guarantee its sovereignty and its existence; and second, it must set out the consequences if it fails to do so.

I understand that provisional agreements have been reached in Vienna earlier today between Iraq and the United Nations' inspection team. We have, on behalf of Canada, offered our assistance to Dr. Blix and his team in carrying out their duties.

This is certainly a welcome step, but we all understand that this process has a long way to go. We must not lose sight of the absolute need to make Saddam Hussein understand the choice he faces. He can comply and have Iraq's sovereignty and security assured by the community of nations or he can continue to flout his international legal obligations and face the determination of the world community.

I hope that my words concerning Iraq have made it clear to the House that we on the government side do not make these assertions lightly. Nor is our insistence on working through the multilateral process undertaken without a careful analysis of what must be done. We are aware of the gravity of the situation but we are also aware of the dangers that conflict would bring to the greater region and that would likely be the terrible human cost.

In these circumstances unilateral action may have the benefit of clarity but it would lack international legal legitimacy. As well it risks destabilizing world order and possibly destroying the credibility of the United Nations itself. It risks destabilizing the Middle East. It risks destabilizing countries well beyond the region, to Pakistan, and with it the efforts that we are making in Afghanistan to recreate peace in that community, to Indonesia, to India and Malaysia where large Muslim populations watch with concern these developments. The use of force threatens the security of Israel. Prime Minister Sharon has made it clear to retaliate if his country is attacked, raising the spectre of a conflict escalating out of control.

As President Roosevelt once observed, “War is a contagion”. Nowhere in my view is this proposition more applicable than in this volatile area of the world.

We are also concerned with what would be an enormous task of reconstruction in the event that we resort to force. Those who advocate war as a means of reconstructing Iraq might be mindful of the wise words of Lester Pearson who said, “The grim fact is that we prepare for war like precocious giants, and for peace like retarded pygmies”.

The point of our efforts then is not to bring the parties to conflict but to prevent it if possible. We cannot allow this to diminish our resolve; the objective is to rid the Iraqi regime of weapons of mass destruction.

However as the Prime Minister emphasized in the House this morning, Canadians are proud of our longstanding tradition in foreign policy which has been to pursue and promote dialogue and understanding among the peoples of the world and to seek political and diplomatic solutions even in the face of imminent conflict. By continuing to act consistently with these values, world peace and security will be enhanced and international institutions strengthened.

To those who call upon us to follow blindly whenever and wherever the United States would lead, even if such actions would threaten the multilateral system we have built together with our American partners so painstakingly over the past 50 years, we say, true friends talk straight to each other and that is why their opinions are respected and valued.

Let us conclude with one last critical point. Our objective is to rid the Iraqi regime of weapons of mass destruction. There are those who claim that regime change is the only means to this end. If Iraq refuses to cooperate, they may turn out to be right. However our responsibility to Canadians, to the world community and to the future of the international rule of law is to be certain that we have exhausted all other options and that we so conduct ourselves in this crisis that the international order on which Canada so much depends emerges strengthened and reinvigorated.

I give the House my assurances that the government will act in this way.

[Svend Robinson, NDP, Burnaby—Douglas, BC]

Mr. Speaker, could the minister clarify two points for the House today and for Canadians who are very concerned about the possibility of military strikes on the people of Iraq who have already suffered such terrible anguish and pain as a result of the impact of economic sanctions?

First, will the minister very clearly state in the House why it is that he believes that a new resolution of the United Nations is needed at this point when in fact the position that has been taken so far by the United States and others is that Saddam Hussein has been in breach of existing resolutions with respect to weapons inspection? Why is he is echoing the call of George Bush for a new United Nations resolution instead of insisting on the observance of existing resolutions?

Second, why is our government not doing far more in terms of regional justice in that area to insist on respect for security council resolutions not just by Iraq but by Israel as well?

[Bill Graham, Liberal, Toronto Centre—Rosedale, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I hope to make it clear in my remarks that the reason for our support for the British and American initiative to have a new Security Council resolution is based in a history and an understanding of what has taken place in the past.

I do not believe that we can go into this situation naively believing that Saddam Hussein is somebody who intends necessarily to conform to international legal norms. Our experience is the reverse.

It would be the triumph of hope over experience to expect that he would now allow the inspectors in without some clear indication from the United Nations itself that his ability to put it off, to change it to move around is at an end. I think it is in his interest, it is in the interest of Iraqi people at this time that the United Nations act clearly to indicate that there is no wiggle room, if I may put it that way, for Saddam Hussein.

It is in his interests. It is in the interest of his country because if he believes that there is a chance that he could slip out he might try and do what he has done in the past and then force would be used. Then the terrible consequences which I described in my speech are there.

The reason for clarity is twofold. Clarity gives us an opportunity to deal with someone who we recognize has been a menace to world order in the past and has a capacity to be so in the future. It also gives us an opportunity to ensure that no force will be used outside of the constraints applied by the United Nations itself. That is why we seek the clarity of another resolution. We congratulate the parties who are proposing such a resolution on moving in this direction.

As for how resolutions should be obeyed in other parts of the Middle East or in other parts of the world, indeed Canada has always urged that the resolutions of the United Nations be respected.

As the hon. member knows as a scholar of international law, there are times in the times of nations when in fact peace and war are at stake and adherence to certain resolutions is absolutely essential.

It is true that we are taking steps on this case which may be different than they are in the case of other resolutions. We will continue always to urge that all resolutions be obeyed by the United Nations. Let us not lose sight of the fact that we are facing the fact of a possible loss of peace in the world with escalation possibilities that are truly frightening when we conclude it.

Therefore, it is most important that these resolutions not only be adhered to but obeyed.

[Yves Rocheleau, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Mr. Speaker, at the beginning of his speech, the minister said that one of the major reasons that would justify an intervention in Iraq is the fact that, historically, it has not complied with UN resolutions.

In the current context, how is it that we can justify the severity with which Iraq is being treated, when at the same time, Israel is not respecting recent UN resolutions? How can Canada be so comfortable with this?

We know that, today, there was an agreement to the effect that within fifteen days, there could be in intervention by duly mandated UN inspectors to visit Iraq and verify the situation. Why is Canada, like the United States...

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bélair)]

The hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs.

[Bill Graham, Liberal, Toronto Centre—Rosedale, ON]

Mr. Speaker, under the circumstances, I do not believe that an analogy with Israel's behaviour is useful in helping us decide what we should do to bring peace to the region.

Saddam Hussein's past behaviour toward his own people and toward his neighbours cannot be compared to the conduct of a democratic society, a society that respects its people, like Israel. Canada has always insisted that Israel comply with the United Nations' resolutions, and we continue to do so. However, we do not believe that Israel is in the same flagrant violation as Iraq is at the time being. Nor does the situation represent a threat to global security, as is the case with Iraq currently.