Debates of Oct. 1st, 2002

Resumption of debate on Address in Reply

[Alexa McDonough, NDP, Halifax, NS]

Mr. Speaker, let me say that I very much concur with the words of my hon. colleague. There is no excuse for the government waiting, delaying the action that is needed, until the Romanow commission reports. The government knows full well, and the facts speak for themselves, that it is the gutting of federal funding, the reducing of the federal contribution to health care spending down to an unprecedented low of 14%, that is causing enormous crisis in the system.

Let us be very clear. Money alone will not solve the problems, but the problems cannot be solved without an infusion of money by the federal government.

I am sure that there is no one who understands the problems in the health care system who would not concur with the comment made by my hon. colleague that the government needs to bring in a budget. It needs to bring in a budget that at a minimum restores the level of federal contribution to health care funding to 25%, with a firm, unequivocal resolve that it will move toward the 50% cost share formula as quickly as it is possible to do so.

[Paul Szabo, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Public Works and Government Services]

Mr. Speaker, child poverty has been an important issue raised in this place and certainly emphasized in the throne speech.

On November 24, 1989, on his very last day as a member of Parliament, the Hon. Ed Broadbent sponsored a motion to seek to achieve the elimination of child poverty by the year 2000.

The member will know that lone parent families in Canada represent about 15% of all families in Canada, but they also account for over 54% of all children living in poverty. If lone parent families account for more than half of the children living in poverty, and since the member is interested in legacies, what would she propose to do to address that half of the children in poverty who are in poverty because of family breakdown?

[Alexa McDonough, NDP, Halifax, NS]

Mr. Speaker, I will just get to the nub of the question as to what I and the New Democratic Party would propose to do about the obscene level of child poverty in the country. We ought to be very careful that we do not come to simplistic conclusions about what it is that plunges people into poverty.

Let us go directly to the heart of the matter. We have a government that prides itself and congratulates itself on, and did so again in the throne speech yesterday, the introduction of the child tax credit, yet the government knows that because of its own policies two-thirds of the children living in grinding poverty in this country do not receive one red cent of benefit from the child tax benefit program. That is perverse. It is unbelievable that the government says that we will claw back from the poorest of the poor in this country, literally two-thirds of the families living in poverty, the child tax benefit.

The government has said that it wants to increase it. Let me say very clearly to the questioner who has raised this question of what needs to be done that at the very minimum what this government needs to do, if it is serious about moving toward the 1989 resolution to eliminate child poverty in this country, is double the existing child tax credit. Anything less than that is not going to lift our children out of poverty and is going to be part of a very ugly, shameful legacy indeed.

[Joe Clark, Progressive Conservative, Calgary Centre, AB]

Mr. Speaker, may I begin, as others have, by expressing to the family of our late colleague, Ron Duhamel, my most sincere condolences and those of my family and my party. I had the privilege of knowing Mr. Duhamel throughout his career in Parliament. He was in the best and every sense of the word a gentleman, but a man who under pressure was quite prepared to stand up and fight for those people to whom he had responsibilities and for those principles in which he believed. He fought a difficult battle, a wasting battle, and he fought it with the kind of dignity and strength that we would all associate with him. On behalf of my colleagues and myself, I want to express condolences to his family.

The Governor General has delivered eloquent and evocative speeches about our country. Yesterday's throne speech was not among them. It was a piece of fluff. It was a public relations ploy designed to divert attention from a government that is divided and drifting. Canada's interests have been put on hold for 18 months while the Liberal Party puts itself ahead of Canada. There was scant detail in this throne speech, there was no vision, and there is absolute silence on the country's capacity to pay either for the new programs the government intends or the other challenges it knows it cannot ignore.

The throne speech bears a title, “The Canada We Want”. It reminds me of “The Land is Strong”, that hymn to complacency that carried an earlier Liberal government to defeat. But the title is accurate: It talks about what the government wants, not about what the government will do.

I think it is appropriate that this throne speech was published at about the same time as the Sears Christmas wish book. I will not wave the Sears book around because that would violate parliamentary traditions and I leave that to the other side. I make the point that the Sears book, which I will not wave around, is much thicker and it is much more specific. I can quote from it, it being a book. It lists a military command post--

[The Deputy Speaker]

I know the right hon. member is well experienced and has used many methods to make his point of view known, but I would ask him to stay within the confines of the spirit of the rules of the House, as he normally does.

[Joe Clark, Progressive Conservative, Calgary Centre, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I will not lift the book again, but let me quote from it. It does list a military command post for $99.99. That is more than the Prime Minister's wish book yesterday gave the Canadian military.

The Sears book also comes with a no lower price guarantee, not the sort of thing we got from Alfonso Gagliano.

Sears has the added advantage of spelling out the price, while no one has any idea of what the Prime Minister's wish list will cost.

But what is most serious about the Prime Minister's promises is that we know they will not be kept.

Yesterday, in his Speech from the Throne, the Prime Minister served us up a rehash, a list of promises which we have heard before and which will never be kept.

Let us look at the government's last two throne speeches. There were roughly 118 promises in those two speeches. How many of them have been kept? Only 25 of those solemn promises were actually acted on by the government. It is a disgrace. It is shameful.

Fully 44 of those old promises, promises not kept, showed up again in the throne speech delivered yesterday. That raises very directly the question: Why did the Prime Minister shut Parliament down? If this Parliament had met in mid-September, when it was supposed to, some of the measures proposed in yesterday's throne speech would already be well on the way to becoming law.

The Prime Minister did not shut Parliament down to provide a new vision. There is no new vision. He needed a diversion to take attention away from the shameful way the government put its party's interest ahead of Canada's interest this summer, so he manipulated Parliament to serve his partisan and personal interests.

At its best, the Speech from the Throne is supposed to be a clear statement of the challenges we are facing and the solutions the government proposes.

That is what a throne speech is supposed to do. It should be a guide to the country's priorities and a guide to the government's intentions over the next session of Parliament. An honest government would have spelled out clearly the issues facing Canada and the actions the government intends. Let us make no mistake, this country faces grave and fundamental issues in the next year. Let us consider just five of those challenges that Canada cannot duck.

First, a deadly war may start in Iraq. If pursued unilaterally, it could trigger turmoil throughout the Middle East and beyond and could wound the United Nations. What is Canada's position? The throne speech says the government will “set out a long-term direction on international and defence policy”. When will it do that? It will do that “before the end of this mandate”; that is, some vague time in the next two years. There is absolutely no investment in a military that has been starved to the breaking point. There are no initiatives to apply Canada's hard-won reputation as a country that can make a difference in international affairs.

I want to talk about the Prime Minister's new found commitment to Africa. I am delighted that he has decided to increase official development assistance. I also know the record of his government. Year after year, consistently, since coming into office until the last fiscal year, the Liberals cut official development assistance, including, cruelly, to Africa. There is a vast gap between what the Prime Minister says now and what he did when he had a chance to make a difference. If he talks about legacy, he will be remembered by the lives he cost, by the hardship he allowed to happen, by the people in the countries and communities who had aid cut off in Africa under his watch.

Second, there are fundamental questions about the strength of the international economy and of Canada's economy. Since the last federal budget the finance minister has either quit or been pushed out, markets are falling, confidence in corporate leadership is falling, the threat of war is in the air and there are wildly different projections on the actual size of the federal government's surpluses for the next few years.

Third, Canada's health care system has been in evident crisis ever since the Liberal government unilaterally cut billions of dollars of transfer payments to the provinces. Other levels of government are ready to act and have proposals. The Romanow commission is winding to a conclusion. Why did the government rush into a throne speech weeks before Romanow reports? How can there be a sensible discussion of social policy priorities in the country when the government has no idea what it will do about health care? The major health initiative, as others have mentioned, in the throne speech is a promise to call a first minister's conference. The Prime Minister does not need a throne speech to call a first minister's conference.

Fourth, there must be a decision on how we deal with climate change. What is the government's plan? The throne speech states:

Before the end of this year, the government will bring forward a resolution to Parliament on the issue of ratifying the Kyoto Protocol on Climate Change.

A “resolution on the issue of ratifying”. What careful, convoluted language. That is not a plan. That will not answer the tough questions on the costs of ratifying Kyoto. It will not generate a serious debate on the pros, the cons and the alternatives.

Whatever those words mean, they are different from what the Prime Minister promised and they are not a commitment to ratifying Kyoto. The Prime Minister is not saying today what he said in South Africa. There he was clear. Here he is ambiguous, again.

He claims he has a vision for climate change. He just does not know what it is. However he wants Parliament and the country to buy into it blindly. The deliberate ambiguity of the government's language betrays the fact that the government itself does not know what it will propose to the House in November to meet the Prime Minister's arbitrary deadline for ratification. How can it know when the Prime Minister hides the facts and costs of ratification from his own cabinet?

In the coming weeks it will fall on Parliament, this House and the other place, to do the homework that the government has failed to do. The Progressive Conservative Party is committed to reducing greenhouse gas emissions, but no responsible parliamentarian can support blind ratification of the Kyoto accord.

The Prime Minister has promised detailed impact studies by province and by sector. We need to see those studies. He promised a serious implementation plan. We need to see that plan. He promised consultations with the provinces, territories, shareholders and the public before taking a decision. We need to hear the arguments. We need to hear and consider the alternatives of the provinces, the environmental committees and others.

We need to know that any action by Parliament respects the Constitution of Canada. Before Canada ratifies the Kyoto protocol we must ensure we can live up to the international commitments that the protocol entails. That is why we have proposed that the Kyoto protocol be referred immediately to a joint committee of both Houses to ensure that the evidence is heard immediately, so that parliamentarians in both Houses will have an opportunity to be fully informed.

Finally, and perhaps most importantly, the government must heal the self-inflicted wound of its own bargain basement ethical standards. The government broke its word in winning office. It said it would cancel the GST. It campaigned against NAFTA. It took a highly partisan position that cost the Canadian military helicopters it could use safely, a price a men and women in uniform continue to pay to this very day.

Having broken its word so many times before, it set out to break the ethical standards that have guided other governments. That started at the top with Shawinigate and stretches on each day through Groupaction and its family of scandals, to the Prime Minister's $101 million gift to himself of two fancy new Challenger aircraft that his own officials said he does not need. Yet who judges ethical conduct in the government? It is an official who reports only to the Prime Minister.

It is amazing that, after so many scandals, the reform of the government's code of ethics does not deserve more than just one reference at the end of the speech. Canadians deserve better. The government had an opportunity to really move forward by announcing that the next ethics counsellor would report to Parliament alone, but it chose not to do so.

Canadians should ask two questions about this throne speech. First, what exactly is the government proposing on health care, national defence, ethics, the Kyoto protocol, Iraq, or on anything else? The short answer is that we have no indication what it is proposing.

Second, can the government deliver on any of these promises? How can we know what we can afford? Only a full budget could tell Canadians that, but following in his predecessor's footsteps the new Minister of Finance has delayed the tabling of a new budget until the new year.

Yesterday's Speech from the Throne was little more than a public relations exercise designed to give the Prime Minister's last 18 months in office the semblance of a plan. There were no significant announcements, no important details, nothing certainly to justify the prorogation of Parliament.

Canadians did not need more promises from this government. What they were looking for was some real measures to help those in need.

This Speech from the Throne adds nothing, hinders our ability to take action on issues of concern to our fellow citizens, and recycles old promises. As an example, the government has repeatedly promised to re-equip our armed forces, to increase our foreign aid, to prepare a strategy to reduce greenhouse gas emissions, and to strengthen its code of ethics. We are no further ahead on any of these promises the day after the throne speech than we were the day before. That is this government's most regrettable mistake.

Contrary to what the Prime Minister is quoted as saying, this is not an agenda for Main Street. This is an agenda for the backrooms of the Liberal Party. This has nothing to do with the nation's business but is has everything to do with the internal business of the Liberal Party of Canada and every day Canadians are paying the price for that sad reality.

Had the government wished to present a real action plan for all Canadians, it would have focused on the four pillars of good public management: healthier public finances, a more visible presence on the international scene, a more cooperative approach with respect to social policies, especially health and the environment, and the reform of our democratic institutions.

The government chose not to act.

Parliament had a ceremony yesterday. There was a wish list but there was no vision of how the country might command the future. There was no plan of action. The government's responsibility is to spell out how it intends to deal with the urgent issues the country cannot avoid. It should state its priorities. It must outline exactly how much each proposal will cost and set out those costs in the context of a full budget. That is what a responsible Speech from the Throne would have done. There was none of that yesterday. What posed as a Speech from the Throne yesterday was an abandonment of the clear responsibility of the government and set no course of direction for Parliament or for the country.

[Paul Bonwick, Liberal, Simcoe—Grey, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I listened respectfully to the words from the Right Hon. member for Calgary Centre. I am disappointed that he has missed an opportunity with his allotted time to present a different vision here in the House rather than to simply criticize for the purpose of undermining the hard work over the past seven to eight years by Canadians to get the country in the shape that it is in today.

Is it the hon. member's opinion that the country is in better shape today under the Liberal government, with single digit unemployment, running back to back five year surpluses, debt reduction, investment in our children and attacking poverty? Or does he believe it was better when the Conservatives were in power with double digit unemployment, $43 billion deficits, debts growing beyond belief, mismanagement and I will not comment on the integrity of the former Prime Minister and his colleague, Mr. Mulroney.

Does the hon. member believe that the country is in better shape today financially than it was when his party was sitting on this side of the House?

[Joe Clark, Progressive Conservative, Calgary Centre, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I will start with a list of questions for my colleague. Is the military stronger in Canada than when the government came to office? No, it is not. Is health care stronger than it was when the government came to office? No, it is not. Is the dollar higher than when the government came to office? No, it is not. Has the economy grown? It has grown because of the free trade agreement. Did the government introduce the free trade agreement? No, it did not. Did it oppose the free trade agreement? Yes, it did.

We could have a vigorous debate about the past. That is not the issue. The issue is the future. The obligation of the Government of Canada is to bring in a throne speech that spells out a clear and detailed plan for the future. The Prime Minister is an abject failure on that as on other accounts.

[Paul Bonwick, Liberal, Simcoe—Grey, ON]

Mr. Speaker, on behalf of the residents of Simcoe--Grey, it is an absolute pleasure and an honour to stand here today in the House and bring forward my comments on the throne speech, the history of this government and the future of this great country of ours. Sadly enough, as I listened to members of the opposition, namely the member for Calgary Centre, I was disappointed because this is an opportunity for all parliamentarians regardless of political stripe to present a different vision, to present a vision for this great land of ours.

I am firmly convinced that we stand on the threshold of a great opportunity in this country. As a government, as parliamentarians and most important as a nation, we are provided these efforts based on the efforts of all Canadians from past generations and this present generation as well.

Mr. Speaker, I am splitting my time with the member for Lac-Saint-Louis and apologize for not mentioning that initially.

We stand at the crossroads of an incredible opportunity. The government has the opportunity to take our great nation and create a model for countries all around this great world. It is no secret that as a government, as Canadians, we want to make sure that all Canadians are provided an opportunity to move forward, that all Canadians benefit from the hard work and commitment of many generations of Canadians and from the sound financial management of the economic and social priorities the government has demonstrated over the last number of years.

I believe the throne speech articulates the very things that Canadians want, that they expect and that they deserve.

Few things can be as important to this country blessed with such a diverse, complex and sensitive environment as a commitment to protect that very environment for future generations. It is for this reason I was pleased to see the commitment from our government that suggests there is no greater priority than safeguarding the very environment that will provide healthy lives for our children and our children's children. This is fundamental to the health and prosperity of our nation for generations to come. I could not have been more pleased to see that our government, the only party in this House, is truly standing up to defend environmental initiatives and make sure there is a strong commitment to ensure we are addressing our responsibilities not only in Canada but around the world.

Speaking of future generations, environment and health are critically important. However, we recognize clearly that in order for our future generations to experience all the benefits they are certainly entitled to, they must be provided a good sound knowledge base and access to that knowledge base. I could not have been more pleased when I heard the Governor General say, “no investments do more to break the cycle of poverty and dependency, and to maximize the potential of every Canadian”, leading into long term investment plans that allow “to break the welfare trap so that children born into poverty do not carry the consequences of that poverty throughout their lives”.

That demonstrates the caring and compassion of Canadians and the direction of the government. We do not want to see children left in poverty. We want to focus on programs that support financially challenged families, single mothers and single fathers raising children. It is incumbent on any government to make sure the appropriate programs are in place so that we break the cycle of poverty. I believe that vision is articulated in the very throne speech we heard yesterday.

I believe I speak on behalf of all my fellow Canadians in recognizing the enormous benefit and the enormous investment that has been made in providing schools and libraries, and the children who are using those schools and libraries, with the information technology and access to that information technology that is second to no other country in the world. There has been a huge investment made in that very topic. Canadians are better off because of it and will continue to be better off because of it.

I have heard hon. members across the floor talk about lack of vision but I have heard no vision from them. I have heard criticism for the purpose of criticizing. That is a shame.

When I sat here yesterday and heard the Governor General speak about the commitment to supporting municipalities, rural municipalities in my particular case, I could not have been more pleased. For years I have stood in caucus and in the House and suggested we need a long term sustainable infrastructure program.

Contrary to what the members in the Alliance or the members in the Conservative Party would say, this is fundamentally important to the growth of rural municipalities. They need a federal partner on an ongoing basis, not time sensitive programs. We are talking about providing some of the most basic of things within municipalities: water, sewers, roads, bridges, things that would allow them to grow and prosper. We cannot be setting specific timelines in place, putting them in a position where financially they are compromising themselves simply by way of a specific date.

In that respect, I could not have been more pleased to hear the government commit to a long term plan to support municipalities. That is a vision for Canada, not the type of vision we hear from across the floor.

I must state clearly that there were many things in the throne speech that I was very pleased with. However, there were a couple of points that I was somewhat disappointed in and which I certainly must address.

I make the commitment that between now and the budget some time next year, I will be a strong advocate to ensure that we maintain a strong commitment to debt reduction as well.

We hear about the strong economy. We hear about a decline in our debt to GDP ratio. We are experiencing the 7% unemployment rate, contrary to the 11% and 14% rates when the Conservatives were in power.

It is important as a legacy for the government and as a legacy for future generations that we continue the ardent approach we have had for the last five years in dropping our hard national debt. It is no legacy to leave the children of tomorrow with a beautiful home and a huge mortgage. We have the beautiful home, but it is incumbent upon the government to continue its focus on debt reduction while trying to balance a social and economic agenda.

The government has to operate under three principles, a three-legged stool. One is the economy; one is social programs; and the third one is the will.

When I listened to my colleagues from the Alliance, they simply missed the point. They are solely focused on the economic points and are prepared to gut social programs. They have no accountability when they talk about $20 billion for spending on this and $10 billion for spending on that and in the same breath talk about eliminating or reducing taxes.

It is a three-legged stool. A government must offer a balanced approach. A government must recognize that the economy and the social programs are very much intertwined. We have to recognize that it is an incredible investment on behalf of all Canadians to provide opportunities for those who do not have them today.

It has been said many times in the House and all across Canada that our most valuable resources are our youth. That was clearly articulated in the throne speech yesterday.

The government has a history, a track record of sound financial stewardship. When I came to the House in 1997 I was looking at a $43 billion deficit. They throw that out loosely. That was just a few short years ago. Since then we have experienced some hard decisions. We have experienced an opportunity to create balanced and surplus budgets while supporting things like agriculture and child benefit programs, reinvesting in the military and seeing unemployment rates drop from 11% to 7%.

I would stand here today and tell Canadians to take comfort in the fact that the government in moving forward is not going to leave the weak behind. We will remain steadfast.

As I said at the start, we are at the threshold of greatness and great opportunity. As outlined in the throne speech, we will capitalize on that.

[Norman E. Doyle, Progressive Conservative, St. John's East, NL]

Mr. Speaker, would the hon. member comment on the fact that only 25% of the promises in the last two Liberal throne speeches were implemented? Would the hon. member comment about rural Canadians and the fact that they were omitted from the throne speech, as were the core industries including fisheries, agriculture and forestry? A plan to increase the number of health care workers was missing as well. A commitment to equip and support our military men and women was missing. Student debt is a very important point as well.

Given the fact that only 25% of the promises of the last two throne speeches were taken seriously, how can the member expect the House to take seriously the promises that were made in yesterday's throne speech?

[Paul Bonwick, Liberal, Simcoe—Grey, ON]

Mr. Speaker, sadly enough, I will assume that the hon. member has the same speech writer as the Alliance Party. Clearly he is confused about the numbers that he is using. I assume he read one of his colleague's notes over in the other lobby.

Clearly, 25% of the promises may be already realized. Keep in mind that we are in the middle of our mandate. The government is still working on these things. The government is still accomplishing many things. Unlike the hon. members from the Conservative Party, on a daily basis we are here and we are committed to resolving many of the commitments that have already been raised.

The hon. member brought up several points. I will not try to respond to all of them because I would like to open the floor to some intelligent questions from other members. The member talked about student debt. I seem to remember sitting here a couple of years ago and listening to the announcement of one of the largest investments in post-secondary education, namely the Canadian millennium scholarship endowment fund. That was one of the largest investments ever made on behalf of a government for young people in this country.

There are RESPs. Canadians all across this great land are benefiting from RESPs under the sound financial stewardship of this government.

I am absolutely amazed. Quite clearly the member either did not listen to the throne speech or he has not followed the record of the House over the last number of years. In my opinion the government has made incredible investments in our youth.

[Peter MacKay, Progressive Conservative, Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough, NS]

Mr. Speaker, we are getting the same arrogant, vacuous rhetoric that one might expect. I did not realize the member had cottoned on to it or perhaps he drank the Kool-Aid that some of his colleagues have.

The member talked about facts. In particular reference to students, the fact is that student debt has quadrupled for most students in Canada. The cost of tuition has gone up 5% during his government's almost 10 years in office.

The member can talk about facts, but there is one undeniable inalienable fact that he and the member for LaSalle—Émard, the former finance minister, continually mislead Canadians on and that is the deficit. The member mentioned the $42 billion deficit that his government inherited. I want to ask him a very simple question. What was the deficit when the previous administration took office? It was $34.6 billion, contributed one thousand fold by the Minister of Finance at the time, the right hon. Prime Minister. How does he address that simple fact when he speaks of the deficit that his government, the Trudeau government, the Liberal government, left when they took office?

[Paul Bonwick, Liberal, Simcoe—Grey, ON]

Mr. Speaker, the member may suggest that we are drinking Kool-Aid, but I think something a little more lively is in their cocktail across the floor with that silly rhetoric.

I will stand here today and say quite clearly that there is nothing arrogant about my position. I am humbled to be able to serve the residents of Simcoe--Grey and for that matter Canadians all across this great land and there is no arrogance about it.

The member talked about students. Does he recognize first of all that under his colleagues in the province of Ontario the cutbacks to students have been absolutely shameful? Where the federal government has been investing, the provincial Conservative government has been dropping. Does he also recognize that enrolments are up in universities all across this great country? Does the member not also recognize that 95% of student loans are being repaid in a timely fashion and in the appropriate timeline?

Obviously the premise of the hon. member's question is totally unfounded. Canadians are being provided an opportunity for education. The government is investing in those young people to provide them an opportunity to make sure that we achieve the greatness that we rightly deserve.

[Clifford Lincoln, Liberal, Lac-Saint-Louis, QC]

Mr. Speaker, first I would like to join those who have already expressed their condolences to the family of our friend, Ron Duhamel, with whom I had the pleasure of working on a number of issues, including veterans affairs when he was the Minister of Veterans Affairs.

I remember visiting the veterans' hospital with him, not too long ago, before leaving his position. He was wearing a wig. He told me how difficult it was dealing with the first effects of cancer.

He was a remarkable man for whom I had a great deal of esteem. Once again, I offer my condolences to his family.

I was in Norway in August and I had the opportunity to speak with Norway's secretary of state for the environment. He told me about the pride their country had taken in ratifying the Kyoto protocol. Norway was one of the first countries to do so, even before the European Union.

He told me that Norway, which is one of the largest producers and exporters of oil and gas in the world, would finance its Kyoto plan in part through royalties from Norway's oil companies.

What an incredible contrast with Premier Klein of Alberta, who is threatening to leave the federation, to separate from us because of the Kyoto accord. Today, we heard the leader of the official opposition tell us that his party would use every possible trick to block the Kyoto process and that it would join the provinces opposed to the protocol to ensure that it is never ratified. Some confidence.

Yet, the evidence is clear. For a number of years now, the United Nations have mandated 2,500 top level scientists. These people have come to the conclusion that the anthropological contribution to climate change, that is the human impact, is very significant. These experts urged us to act as quickly as possible and to change our way of doing things and of living.

Kyoto is far from perfect. No international agreement is. We could review them all; international agreements are never perfect. Yet, this is a collective resolution taken by countries, particularly rich and industrialized countries, to change their ways of doing things, to live differently, to create and to produce things differently in order to save our planet.

The fact is that, ironically, the richest and most fortunate countries are the ones that did all the damage. These are the same countries that benefited the most from the past few decades of unbridled development. At the same time, innocent nations, including small insular ones, have suffered from the causes generated by rich and developed countries.

These innocent nations are telling us “What did we do to deserve this? You better change your ways of doing things and your lifestyles as quickly as possible”.

Kyoto is a planetary question no doubt, but above all it is a question of international equity. We owe it to innocent nations to change our ways and do something about it. Kyoto represents a collective process, a collective resolve to change our ways. Given our tremendous skills as a country and given our bountiful resources, Canada remains the dwarf of renewable energies.

Statistics abound in wind energy. For instance, Germany produces 6,000 megawatts. A small country like Denmark produces 2,500 megawatts and has created thousands of jobs out of wind energy. Canada has barely reached 200 megawatts.

In solar energy Japan has reached 128 megawatts while Canada is barely at 2 megawatts. In solar energy, a poor country like India is way ahead of us. It has the second largest wind farm in the world and has invested $450 million U.S. in a project to provide solar energy to residential homes.

The other day I was listening to an interview with the deputy CEO of British Petroleum, Mr. Rodney Chase, on As It Happens . He explained that in the last eight years BP, an oil producer, has reduced its emissions by 10% compared to 1990 without spending an additional penny. He said that production had gone up by 5.5% despite it, and it will continue with the trend on these projectionsd now to 2005 without any penalty to BP.

Ironically, Calgary, the city of the Premier of Alberta, has installed solar collectors for its bus barns. It is using wind power to propel its C-train in the city.

The winners of the 2000 energy efficiency awards in housing received their award because they improved the efficiency of their homes compared to the R-2000 standard by 25% to 42%. The Office of Energy Efficiency stated that for an investment of $4,000, over the years people could reduce their energy bills by 25% each year. Yet Canada still uses the additive MMT manganese and is one of the only industrial nations to use MMT in our gasoline when biofuels could be used and produced in quantity.

Canada is the dwarf of renewable energy. Kyoto will help us change our ways. It will in fact force us to change our ways.

The Leader of the Opposition never mentioned the benefits to our health. How can we disassociate the environment from health? How can we disassociate health from the environment? The figures which have been produced by the Minister of the Environment in the option paper show savings of $500 million a year to a health program due to better air quality. That is $5 billion a year in the 10 years that we would have to reach our Kyoto target of 6%. The naysayers only produce negative statistics such as the loss of 450,000 jobs and yet they do not know how this will happen.

I would like to read from the interview held with the deputy CEO of BP. He is not just talking statistics and making wild statements. He said this about climate change:

...our view is, we can't prove that, and we'd rather get on with taking action that we don't have any regrets about. Things that we can do that in case the world is actually heating up and it's to do with us, in case the weather is turning against us and it's our fault, we can take these actions with no regrets, and it doesn't trade off jobs and the standards of living in the developed world. Now that's our view, and the practice that we've pursued over the last four years has not changed our mind at all. In fact, its encouraging us to say we can do a heck of a lot more to prevent emissions of greenhouse before we begin to approach the problem at which our industrial effectiveness is threatened.

The idea that we threaten our economic effectiveness because of Kyoto or because of climate change is again a bogus argument.

I applaud the government for taking the stand that ratification must happen before December. We have to take leadership to show the world that we are part of a collective resolve, an international regrouping to change our ways of thinking, to change our ways of living and to practise equity toward the innocent nations that we ourselves have harmed with our own pollution.

I will applaud the government when it produces the bill to ratify and I will stand four-square behind it.

[Larry Spencer, Canadian Alliance, Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, SK]

Mr. Speaker, the hon. member across did a wonderful job of presenting some of the good points of Kyoto. However I believe we could discover that there may not be all strong points. There may be some very weak points. He made the comment that we owe it to poorer countries to change our ways. That is probably a very good statement. However for poorer countries to benefit from a cut in greenhouse emissions they must see us change our ways.

Within the Kyoto agreement is the transfer of money plan. It sounds like a plan to simply enrich the poorer countries in that we can buy credits and not reduce our emissions at all.

If we are really serious, if Kyoto is designed to reduce greenhouse emissions, then why would we want to send money to underdeveloped countries to develop them industrially and help them produce greenhouse emissions? Why would we not want to spend that money on reducing our own greenhouse emissions? After all, industrialized countries are where most of the greenhouse emissions are produced

[Clifford Lincoln, Liberal, Lac-Saint-Louis, QC]

Mr. Speaker, the Kyoto agreement is an assemblage of many parts of a project. It is a project with many components. The chief component is for us to change our ways and adopt renewable energies as a parallel to what we do today.

We have not even started to scratch the surface. Our public transportation, compared to that of Norway, Finland, France and Germany, is away behind the times. We have to get up to steam by using a parallel track while at the same time transferring modern, non-polluting technology to the developing world to help it also reach a better standard of living. At the same time, reducing greenhouse gases collectively is a very good idea so long as modern technology is used for that purpose. If we just transferred polluting technology, I would agree with the member. However that is not the spirit of it. The spirit of it is to produce and transfer technology which is designed to curb gas emissions. That is the whole idea.

Kyoto is an assemblage of many components. We have to first decide that here we can do something instead of whining like rich provinces like Alberta and Ontario. They say that they cannot do it because they will lose jobs. What about Denmark? What about Norway? What about Finland? What about Germany? What about France? They also have problems of job creation, but at least they look at positive things and resolve to change their ways. That is what we must start doing very soon.

[Maurice Vellacott, Canadian Alliance, Saskatoon—Wanuskewin, SK]

Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the hon. member opposite a question along those same lines.

If major countries like the U.S., China and India, particularly the U.S., which are not involved in this agreement, are able to use some of the dollars they will not be putting into this somewhat fraudulent scam of trading credits and so on to actually create green technology and do research along those lines, would we not be even farther behind? We will not be able to do it. The whole Canadian economy, people on fixed incomes and so on will be hurt considerably by it and we will not have the dollars to do the green technology research and development that the U.S. in particular, our neighbour to the south, will be able to do as a result of staying out of this somewhat fraudulent scam called Kyoto.

[Clifford Lincoln, Liberal, Lac-Saint-Louis, QC]

Mr. Speaker, what diminishes the credibility of the argument is when we talk about Kyoto as a fraudulent scam. I was at Kyoto in 1997. I do not think the people who signed the Kyoto accord were producing a fraudulent scam.

Instead of always looking at negatives and finding all kinds of arguments not to do things, perhaps we should look at what countries like India have done.

People say that India is staying out of it. I will introduce the member to an Indian expert, Dr. Amulya Reddy, who brought electricity to 1,000 villages in India out of biomass. I will show the House how India used 27 sugar mill factories to create a grid which made it so that the Indian government did not have to invest in one nuclear plant. It is also investing in solar power in a big way and has the second biggest wind farm in the world.

At least India is doing things, which is what we must start to do instead of always looking for escape hatches and negatives. It is about time we stopped whining, ratified Kyoto and went forward.

[Carol Skelton, Canadian Alliance, Saskatoon—Rosetown—Biggar, SK]

Mr. Speaker, I will be sharing my time with my hon. colleague from Langley--Abbotsford.

The throne speech reminds me of something Albert Einstein once said. He said “The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them”.

This throne speech is an attempt by the Prime Minister to solve problems he created for himself and to solve problems created by his corrupt government. However, as Einstein said, he cannot do that at the same level of thinking he was at when he created those problems.

He will never solve problems we face if he continues with the same style of governing, continues to use patronage to reward his friends, continues to abuse the authority of his office to punish his opponents for personal gain, continues to waste taxpayer money, continues to divide Canadians and continues to demean parliament and its members.

On Tuesday, September 24 the Prime Minister and his cabinet leaked most of what was in the Speech from the Throne. At a time when members were seriously questioning the concentration of power in the Prime Minister's Office and the lack of freedom and respect afforded to them, the Prime Minister sidesteps and blindsides them with the shameless leak of the throne speech.

This debate was supposed to start today but because of the Prime Minister's lack of respect for parliament, it started last week in the media with an address in reply to the leak from the throne.

It was only a few days before the cabinet revealed the contents of the throne speech that members of the Liberal caucus were complaining in the media that the Speech from the Throne would be written by a handful of bureaucrats. While I shared their outrage, we cannot be surprised by the Prime Minister's latest insult since this Speech from the Throne is about his loyalty to his legacy and not to his country, parliament, party or colleagues.

Last week the Alliance released its parliamentary reform package, Building Trust II. The Prime Minister's recent dismissal of the role of Parliament has highlighted the urgency to begin the process of curbing the power of the Prime Minister's Office and curtailing its actions that disrespect this institution.

Building Trust II aims to enhance the pre-eminence of Parliament and the role of its members.

In my Address in Reply to the Speech from the Throne, I will focus on the need for parliamentary reform, with an emphasis on advancing the idea of electing our Speaker by secret ballot to the committees of the House of Commons. The Reform Party began suggesting change in 1994 and passed the baton on to the Canadian Alliance.

The policy of providing for all private members' business to be votable shares the same history as the initiative to provide for secret ballot elections in committee. In the course of three parliaments the Liberal government ridiculed us over that proposal and after nine years the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs finally has adopted it. The next hurdle is to convince the cabinet to do it. In a Parliament with a Liberal government, the cabinet controls the House and the rules that govern it. We need to look at the Liberal track record to give us an idea of our success probability.

When it comes to parliamentary reform the government likes to talk the talk but has to be shoved up against the wall before it is willing to walk the walk.

Appended to the first Liberal red book was a document entitled “Reviving Parliamentary Democracy: the Liberal Plan for House of Commons and Electoral Reform”. This document contained the Liberal promises for parliamentary reform. Upon taking office, the Prime Minister proceeded to ignore most of the recommendations in that document.

The ones that he did adopt were quickly controlled and abused. For example, the procedure to refer bills to committee before second reading. The reasons to refer a bill to committee before second reading is to allow for a wider scope of amendments and allow a committee to redraft a bill as it sees fit. In practice we ended up with the same old cabinet control over any changes to legislation. The Liberal committee members performed as they had always done, as puppets for the Prime Minister and his cabinet. Without free votes, the new procedure became useless.

In addition, the Liberals exploited the new rule as another means to invoke closure without notice. The new procedure has a limit of 180 minutes at the first stage. The trade off for this built in closure was supposed to be the admissibility for a wider scope of amendments.

However, when the government began referring bills that were based on ways and means motions to committee before second reading in the 35th Parliament, it clearly showed its hand. These sorts of bills cannot be substantially amended so committee members could not take advantage of the new process. Instead of enhancing the role of members, the government used the new procedure in such a way that it actually impeded private members by curtailing debate at the first stage.

Here is another example. The Liberals also promised to appoint two opposition members to the Speaker's chair. That promise came from the Liberal plan to reform the House. On page 9 of the document it states:

In order to enhance the independence of the Chair and in an effort to reduce the level of partisanship, when the Speaker is from the Government party, two of the junior Chair Officers should be from the Opposition, so that four presiding officer positions are shared equally by Government and Opposition.

Once in power they totally ignored the idea. In the next session when they had to re-appoint the junior Chair officers, the Reform Party moved an amendment to the appointment motion, the adoption of which would have resulted in the appointment of an opposition member to the Chair. The House debated the amendment for three days and under closure the government voted the Reform amendment down securing all Chair occupants for government members and breaking another Liberal red book promise.

When the opportunity to appoint Chair officers presented itself again in the future, the Prime Minister implemented half of his promise by appointing one opposition member to the Chair. Ian McClelland was appointed Assistant Deputy Chairman of Committees of the Whole. The Prime Minister was quick to attach a condition to that appointment. Ian was not allowed to vote, giving the government a permanent pair.

In this Parliament we chose not to put forward a name because it was not worth making the same deal with the devil. Besides, the Liberals should implement their policies because they promised them, not because the opposition forced them to or because they saw an unintended self-serving opportunity.

Having said that, we did try once again to force the Liberal government to implement another one of its promised parliamentary reforms. In February 2001, my party introduced a motion to appoint an independent ethics commissioner who would report directly to Parliament. We lifted the policy word for word from the Liberal red book, introduced it as a motion and after debate the government voted it down, just like it did with its promise to appoint opposition members to the Chair.

Recently the member for LaSalle—Émard has been very vocal about the topic of parliamentary reform and he would like us to believe that he is sincere about positive change but his parliamentary record tells a different story. He too voted against his party's own parliamentary reform policies. The one promise I mentioned earlier that his government did implement, and subsequently abuse, was tailored to be the most demeaning to members when it was used for finance bills. I am talking about referring bills to committee before second reading. As you know, Mr. Speaker, he was the finance minister when these bills were being referred to committee before second reading and as a result the legislative role of members was hampered significantly.

I am puzzled why the member sat silent for nine years as his own supporters were forced to vote for policies that they did not believe in and vote against policies that they did believe in.

The Reform motion to compensate hepatitis C victims comes to mind. I remember seeing Liberal members in tears after being forced to vote against the motion. Now, after nine years of silence, when the member is revving up his leadership efforts, he hints at allowing for free votes. I urge all members to question his sincerity and examine the motivation behind his recent reform promises.

I will now move on to the secret ballot elections at committee. The secret ballot method of voting which was introduced to secure and protect the rights of the voter. I think it is essential that it be used.

One of the most remarkable reforms that came out of the McGrath recommendations was the reform that gave freedom to committees to set their own agendas without recourse to the House. However what good is that freedom when the Prime Minister controls it. We only have freedom when we can exercise it. Voting without secret ballot at committee clearly robs members of this freedom because they cannot exercise their free vote without fear of consequence. This has been the experience of open voting for hundreds of years.

[Ken Epp, Canadian Alliance, Elk Island, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I enjoyed the speech just given by my colleague. It brought to mind a number of serious breaches of the democratic process both in committee and also in the House where members are not given the freedom to vote the way they believe they should on a number of occasions. The one example that I am thinking of was the election of the chair.

Yesterday, this same member stood up in debate when a motion was proposed to appoint the Deputy Chairman of Committees of the Whole. She went to some length in arguing that democracy would be better served if that were done by secret ballot similar to the election of the Speaker.

I went through that fiasco in the finance committee where there was a whipped vote in the committee on the selection of the chair. Would the member tell us why is it that there is an advantage to the secret ballot? What is the reason behind it? What is wrong with standing up? We have had this debate about whether or not members should always vote in secret ballot and yet the other argument is, “No. I want my MP to stand up and show the world where he stands on these issues”. In that case there is the argument against voting in secret so that we can be held accountable. How does the member reconcile those two conflicting points of view?

[Carol Skelton, Canadian Alliance, Saskatoon—Rosetown—Biggar, SK]

Mr. Speaker, I wish to thank my hon. colleague for his question. I too have sat through committee meetings and have watched whipped votes. I find it uncomfortable. During committee we express our views. When members feel that they want to vote against something that the government is forcing on them it is their right and privilege as Canadian citizens to do that.

As we sit at our desks we have the right to openly vote our feelings and our constituents realize what we are doing. We are held accountable at home in our ridings for what we do in the House. My constituents know my feelings and respect them. If I voted in a whipped vote they would not appreciate it and I might not be here next time.

[Randy White, Canadian Alliance, Langley—Abbotsford, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to stand in the House to talk about the throne speech because it should be about the dreams of Canadians and how they see their future, not necessarily the dreams of a party and how it sees Canadians. We all have dreams and I would like to talk about some of the dreams that I have, as well as individuals in my riding.

Like many Canadians I have been thinking about retirement. After 37 years of working without being unemployed for even a day, I wonder if it is time. My lifelong savings in mutual funds and investments in the stock market are worth 45% of what I originally put in. Any bonds or liquid assets I have receive about 1.75% interest. To top it all off, the government taxes the few dollars I receive. Essentially my lifelong dream goes to a government that has an insatiable appetite for spending.

I wish the government would truly reflect some downsizing, stand up with courage and drop taxes substantially, take every possible cent it can find and pay down the debt and allow seniors the privilege of less taxes and more disposable income. However, these are just dreams. Like many people in Canada, we have dreams too. Those dreams are not necessarily met in the throne speech.

I watched the government when it was in opposition and the Conservatives lower the age of consensual sex from 16 to 14. Now older criminals are using our kids within the law for sex partners, prostitutes and drug sales. I witnessed the elimination of the Lord's Prayer from the House of Commons because it might have offended some other religion. I watched the government stand by and allow some obscure judge decide that pornography was okay to possess but not to produce. How does one possess pornography without someone producing it?

I recently saw an unelected, unaccountable Senate recommend after a three year study that we legalize marijuana and allow it to be smoked starting at age 16. Cigarettes cannot be smoked until age 18. Another obscure judge decided that marriage was no longer the legal union of a man and woman and the government stood by and did nothing.

I would like the government to stop being my social conscience and moral parent. I would like to see the Senate elected and accountable or eliminated. I want judges to ensure laws are upheld, not to make laws as they see fit. I wish politicians, the government in particular, would cherish Canadians for what they are and not for what they want them to be.

These are the things I would have liked to see reflected in the throne speech. The throne speech said the government would add more to legal aid. I have some experience there. A prisoner fell out of the top bunk of his cell and successfully sued the government for $250,000 using legal aid. The prison system has a zero tolerance policy on drugs but gives inmates bleach to sterilize their needles. Just what is the definition of contradiction over there?

Inmates set fire to a prison and successfully sued the government using legal aid because of smoke inhalation from the very fire they set. One of our own senior citizens cannot fight for her rights after some creep nearly beat her to death because she has no money for a lawyer.

I want legal aid stopped for criminals in prison. I want the prison system to make work the number one priority and insist that zero tolerance means no drugs in prison. However, these are just dreams. Like the government, we have dreams too.

A man came to me the other day and wanted a grant to start a business. He did not want to borrow the money because there was a risk he might fail. Numerous working, young people come to me hoping I will help them write off their student loans because they cut into their disposable income. I watched as my own child left Canada to work in another country that offered less taxes, more benefits and more freedom of expression in the workplace.

I wish the government would wake up and inspire business and workers with less intrusion. I want our young to stay at home, feel responsible for their loans and be optimistic about their future. However, these are just dreams, dreams that were not reflected in the throne speech. We have dreams too.

While Canada wallows in debt I watched as the government forgave $2.8 million in debt owed to us by Colombia and $2.7 million by El Salvador. Now it will double foreign aid by billions. I watched as Canada gave $120,000 to the Prisoners' HIV/AIDS Support Action Network, $54,600 to the United Steelworkers of America and $51,000 to the British Columbia Teachers' Federation, but not one red cent to any one of the 39 struggling drug rehabilitation centres for our youth.

I worry when $249,000 is given to develop a local movie about Frank/The Rabbit , a film about how humans and rabbits formulate and justify beliefs. I wish the government would spend my money as though it was its own. I wish we could all learn to live within our means and I wish money would help end evil not be the root of it. However, these are just dreams, dreams that were not reflected in the statement by the government as to where it is going. We all have dreams.

Two more home invasions occurred the other day in my immediate area. There are young people beating elderly people to death. Where have their values gone? Better yet, why have we stopped teaching them? My area is now noted for problems with young people prostituting themselves and for car theft. Both are signs of a deteriorating society and major drug problems. While these problems continue to grow at a rapid pace I watch drug rehabilitation centres close for lack of commitment and funding from all levels of government.

I sat in disbelief with a family as some obscure judge awarded a criminal a sentence much too low for murdering that family's daughter. The loss in confidence in our justice system is more than justified from the victim's point of view.

I wish we could get back to the self-respect, the discipline, the values and the integrity we had and were noted for. I wish schools, parents and governments would stop listening to the vocal minority libertarians out there who would have no discipline, no values and no self-respect in our society. However, these are just dreams, dreams not reflected in the government's statement.

I wrote a victims bill of rights in 1994. It became law in 1998, in part. I wrote the legislation for the national sex offender registry, which the government committed to, and it did not even show up in the throne speech. I initiated the House of Commons special committee on drugs to look at drugs and the government announces, heaven forbid, that it is headed toward decriminalization without even waiting for the report.

Finally, I wish governments would take good ideas and implement them, even if it means swallowing that bitter pill of humility because someone else thought of them first. All the good ideas do not come just from over there, from a throne speech. They come from the hearts and minds of Canadians. These are all just dreams, dreams we all have. We should not be listening just to the dreams the Liberal government has for all of us, with nothing in return.

[Paul Szabo, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Public Works and Government Services]

Mr. Speaker, I would like to start by saying how saddened I was to hear of the passing of our hon. colleague, Ron Duhamel. He was a friend. He was an honourable and respected member of this chamber. I know we will all miss him very much.

Yesterday's throne speech and today's speech by the Prime Minister provide Canadians with an important road map for our journey through the next few years of the new millennium. They are important documents. I certainly commend them to all Canadians, who can check the Prime Minister's website or their own members' websites to read these importance words and guides for Canadians.

I believe that one of the most important themes in the throne speech is one that has been one with us for some time. It is the issue of child poverty, on which I would like to focus my comments today.

Poverty is one of the least understood issues in Canada. Advocacy groups call it child poverty and it tugs at the heartstrings of all caring persons. They have evoked images of children starving in the streets and they report that the problem has increased by almost 50% over the past decade. Who could possibly be against eliminating child poverty? The bold reality is that poverty in Canada is more a matter of social poverty, not economic poverty. I will explain that.

There is also a heated debate going on today in the backrooms of government on how to define poverty. The positions range from the deprivation of food, clothing and shelter to not being able to more fully participate in Canadian society. This debate is on absolute versus relative measures of poverty. Once we get this resolved, it will become the foundation of social welfare in Canada. It will also define the level of poverty that we are prepared to tolerate in Canada.

In the absence of an official poverty line in Canada, groups such as Campaign 2000 relied on LICOs, low-income cut-offs, as a measurement. The current data suggests that 17% of Canadians are significantly below the income of the average Canadian family. This is a relative measure and anti-poverty groups use it as a measure of who is poor in Canada. However, the measure does have a number of flaws. For example, 40% of the families considered poor under the LICO measurement actually own their own homes. Of those, one-half do not even have a mortgage. We have to ask ourselves: Is a family who owns its own home free and clear really living in poverty in Canada?

On February 11, 1999, Parliament debated the issue, as we did back in 1989, I believe, when there was that famous resolution to seek to achieve the elimination of poverty by the year 2000. The speeches covered the same range of relevant information but no one noticed. No one really noticed. Not only was the substance the same as the 1989 statistics, but the statistics were significantly more tragic. How is it that nobody cared? I begin to believe that maybe Canadians do not see poverty in their own neighbourhoods and do not believe it exists.

It is important that Canadians understand that poverty exists and what the characteristics of poverty really are.

Anti-poverty groups are growing in size and influence. They report annually on the growing level of poverty in Canada and fiercely lobby governments to act. More jobs, more social assistance, more social housing, more tax benefits for families with children, more money for health care and early childhood development, more employment insurance benefits, and more subsidized day care are but a few of the solutions offered by anti-poverty groups.

They universally accept LICO as the measure of poverty for one simple reason: It is an economic measure that calls for economic solutions. If they had to address the root causes of poverty, it would open up a Pandora's box that clearly no one wants to face.

Homelessness has also become the latest focus for poverty in Canada. In January 1999, a task force chaired by Anne Golden issued a report on the homeless in Toronto, declaring that there were workable solutions. They wanted to engage all levels of government to come up with these workable solutions and set up their responsibilities. However, if we were to look closely at the report, we would find some interesting statistics. Of the homeless identified in Toronto, 35% were mentally ill, 15% were aboriginals off reserve, 10% were abused women, and 28% were youths, of whom 70% had experienced physical or sexual abuse. In addition, the majority of these homeless were abusers of drugs and of alcohol.

In Toronto they found out that 47% of the homeless did not even come from Toronto. They had migrated from other centres. This is the urban magnet.

It is clear that Canadian cities right across the country are not doing their share to provide the services and the care for those who need it.

These are the causes of homelessness. They are the same causes of poverty. People who live in squalor on the streets in Canada, sadly, represent those whom no one loves.

Another point on this whole issue of poverty has to do with the family. Lone parent families represent about 15% of the families in Canada, but sadly they also account for about 54% of all children living in poverty. The rate of family breakdown is almost 40% in Canada. The incidence of domestic violence continues at record levels. Alcohol and drug abuse in our schools and our communities have escalated, with tragic consequences. Unwanted teen pregnancies continue to rise. Close to 30% of students drop out of high school and become Canada's poor in waiting. Nearly 25% of all children enter adult life with significant mental, social or behavioural problems. They represent the social poverty in our society and are the root causes of the vast majority of the economic poverty in Canada.

If poverty in Canada is a horror and national disgrace, then the breakdown of the Canadian family is the principal cause of that disgrace. Those who express outrage at poverty but do not express the same outrage about the breakdown of the Canadian family are truly in denial. However, in these days of political correctness, the family and its structure and condition represent a minefield through which few are prepared to tread. Anti-poverty groups have meekly sidestepped the social poverty dimension. However, if we are not prepared to address social poverty in Canada then we are effectively choosing to tolerate the very poverty that we seek to eliminate.

There are solutions, but the solutions must be to stabilize the situations of those who are unable to care for themselves or those who cannot care for themselves because of disabilities or other challenges that they have in life.

I believe that the solution has to do with dealing with those who have the problem now, with stabilizing their situation while we stop the creation of new poor. We have to stop the creation of new poor, which means that we have to raise one healthy, well-adjusted generation of children who have good social, moral and family values, and it means that our educators and legislators have to promote and defend those values that I believe children have. If we raise this healthy generation of children, it will then propagate another generation of children who have the same value system. They will propagate another generation of children who will not aspire to live on welfare, who will ensure that they get a proper education and who will ensure that they are going to be contributing members of Canadian society.

I cannot speak strongly enough about how important it is for Canadians to be engaged in the issue of child poverty. It is family poverty; it is not child poverty. It is not economic poverty; it is social poverty. There are very important reasons why Canadians should be engaged in defining what that poverty is, in addressing its current problems, and in spending less money on trying to provide sources of assistance after there is a problem and trying to mitigate the incidence of the problem in the first place.

Our children are a function of the society in which they live. Those who become our future poor do so because of our failure to put their interests ahead of our own.

Collectively we are responsible for the poverty that exists in Canada today. It is therefore our collective responsibility to resolve both its social and its economic causes.

[Ken Epp, Canadian Alliance, Elk Island, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I feel a little guilty dominating the debate in comments and questions, but I always look around to give other people a chance. They do not rise to the occasion, so here I am.

I enjoyed the speech of the hon. member opposite because I agree with him that children generally are not living in poverty unless their families are. There might be some exceptions, but for most cases that is true. Even those in the richest families will not give thousands of dollars to a five-year-old, so in fact as children independent from their parents they are really very poor.

I have two comments with respect to this speech. First I would like the hon. member opposite to comment on the definitions that are used for poverty. By the definitions that I have heard from time to time, my wife and I and our kids lived in poverty for a number of years. I remember that one of the criteria for poverty was not taking a vacation that took a person at least 100 miles from home in the last year. That was one of the characteristics of someone living in poverty.

For many years my wife and I had limited vacations because of the commitments we made. As I have said before in the House, we lived on 30% of my salary because about 50% of it went to taxes at all different levels, hopefully 10% went for preparation for our future retirement and another 10% went to charity, which is sort of a rule of thumb, although sometimes it was more. We ended up living on 30% of what I earned as a single wage-earner so that my wife could be a full-time mom. That government policy was very detrimental to us. I would like the hon. member to qualify the definition of poverty, because we never felt poor, but we were.

The second thing I would like to--

[An hon. member]

Time.