Debates of Oct. 1st, 2002

Resumption of debate on Address in Reply

[Brenda Chamberlain, Liberal, Guelph—Wellington, ON]

Mr. Speaker, certainly I think everything has to be looked at and I would agree with the hon. member on that. However having said that, I would really be against user fees for low income families.

There are families, even if we were talking about $5, who could not pay it. I have three sons who used to get a thing called red ear. If treated with penicillin, it was no big deal. It was cured without a problem. However they had to be taken to a doctor to get the penicillin because we needed a prescription. If a young family with three, four or five kids who had this, which is highly contagious, and they had to pay a user fee each time of $5 or whatever might be proposed, that family might not go to the doctor.

That would be extremely terrible because children who could be cured within a matter of days by taking penicillin might not get it because perhaps the mom did not have the $5. That red ear could go into the ear and the child could go deaf. That would be terrible thing and we cannot do that to Canada. We have never done that to Canada and we must not embark on that.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

Mr. Speaker, it is good to hear my colleague from Ontario talk about the importance of health care in the Speech from the Throne but it gives me great distress to hear some of the comments with regard to the lack of action by the government on health care since 1993.

In particular, the comments were “bringing in other practitioners from other countries.” Windsor West has a significant shortage in our community of practitioners in many of the different departments of health. On top of that we have issues with regard to foreign trained professionals who cannot practise in this country because of the lack of support received from the government. They are driving cabs, working in convenience stores and going into businesses.

Sadly, what is happening in our community is that many of them, hundreds in the medical professions, are going to the United States to practise. Ironically Canadians are often sent there to get services they cannot get here and they are practised on by people who are not recognized here by our own government. It is ironic and sad.

I would like to direct my question to the member with regard to specific timelines for these people with these current credentials and qualifications. Michigan state is moving toward reciprocity with regard to nurses, doctors and respirologists. What can they expect--

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bélair)]

The hon. member for Guelph--Wellington.

[Brenda Chamberlain, Liberal, Guelph—Wellington, ON]

Mr. Speaker, as I indicated, more of these things have to be explored but the hon. member knows it is a provincial jurisdiction. This is not just a federal area. The hon. member knows that the Province of Ontario is ruled by the Conservative government. It is duly elected and we have to work with it.

I hope we will continue to explore all options and, as I said early on in my speech, that would be one of them.

[Judy Sgro, Liberal, York West, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I am very pleased to have a few minutes today to give my comments on the throne speech on behalf of my constituents of York West and to compliment the Prime Minister on both the comments in the throne speech and his comments today.

The recognition of the need for an urban strategy to carry our country into the 21st century was clearly enunciated today and articulated very well by the Prime Minister in the throne speech as well.

Canada has changed immensely in the last 100 years, where 80% of our people currently live in our large urban regions. The recognition of their contribution and how important they are to the well-being of this country was clearly recognized in the throne speech.

The commitment to establishing a long term infrastructure program so that our urban regions can plan their development and their futures was a key issue in the work we, as a task force, were doing on behalf of the Prime Minister. It recognized the need for cities to be able to plan their futures when it came to infrastructure issues and the capital investment required to deal with long term transit issues, sewer, water and so on. These are very expensive things for many municipalities and many of them are having tremendous difficulty.

The FCM recently indicated that there was a requirement for $44 billion worth of infrastructure to bring it up to the level that it should be in 2002. That is a very significant amount. The fact that the government has, since 1993, invested over $4 billion already is a start in moving toward really meeting those needs, together with the private sector.

Yesterday there were many issues that were raised in the throne speech that affect the urban agenda, including children and the disabled. I compliment the Prime Minister on those particular issues. Compensating caregivers who need to take time away from their work to take care of an elderly person or a sick child is a critically important part of who we all are and the type of people we are.

As we move forward in the throne speech on the current initiatives, there is also mention made of the need for affordable housing and an investment into affordable housing that we want to see hopefully in the spring budget. These are issues that are critically important. They were raised in our work on the task force regarding urban regions: lack of affordable housing; the need for long term infrastructure; quality of life services; support for new immigrants moving into our cities who are predominantly settling in our large urban regions; and additional support for ESL.

Clearly, these issues were raised in the throne speech as acknowledgment of the work done by my colleagues on the task force. I must compliment them for the great work they did in helping to bring that forward. As well, the Federation of Canadian Municipalities, the Urban Development Institute of Canada, CUTA and other organizations worked along with them to ensure that the government understood the importance of the regions.

On behalf of the mayors of our cities, I pass on their compliments to the Prime Minister that the throne speech clearly recognizes the issues that are very important to them and the need for change. Reassessing our priorities, focusing on innovation, skills and training, support for research and development and our universities are all key issues at play in our large urban regions.

We can do all that while still respecting the jurisdiction of the provinces and working with them as a partner as we move forward. We need to be investing our dollars in economic engines to ensure that they stay strong and have the services required to provide a healthy lifestyle for the citizens who live there. This is just the beginning of putting together an urban strategy. It is one that will take a lot of time to develop but will clearly map out a future for Canada in partnership with our urban regions and with our provinces. By respecting our jurisdictional matters and working with them to target programs at the regional level, we can build this country together. That is clearly what the task force has recommended in its report as a way to target the support we want to offer our communities and where we can reap the benefits as a federal government.

We talked in that report about a new relationship to develop an urban strategy for Canada. After the throne speech yesterday and the Prime Minister's comments today, I believe we are heading in that direction to offer the support to the people living in our urban centres so that we are building a strong Canada for everyone.

The recognition of the problems with foreign credentials continues to be a significant problem, especially in the large urban centres. The need for removing those barriers for foreign credentials continues to be an important issue.

Encouraging skilled foreign workers to come to Canada and fast-tracking the immigration process is something that is needed. In speaking with construction people and so on, they have a real slowdown in getting the skilled trades work done when they are building houses and apartments. There are not enough workers in Canada currently trained who can move that forward.

The recognition of these issues is important when we are trying to ensure that we have strong, vibrant urban regions that can position our country to compete internationally and nationally as we go forward.

The review of the security regulations was another issue that we pointed out in our report. It was important have a national security commission that could move those agendas forward and reduce the over-regulation that we currently have in a variety of areas throughout Canada.

There is recognition of the need for a national drug strategy that is currently being discussed with another one of our caucus groups.

Those issues impact the important decisions that are made in urban regions. The need for us to be moving forward on them are another few ways of how we can make our urban regions stronger. We can also implement the many recommendations in the throne speech, as well as what the Prime Minister commented on today.

It is targeted investments, ensuring that we have strong urban regions, that will be helpful as we move forward on these agendas.

The throne speech captured all the reasons that I am the member of Parliament for York West. It talked about how we are to continue to be a caring society, one that cares about those who are sick, one that cares about the disabled. The reinforcement of our support for the health care system in Canada, as well as the interest in the Kyoto agreement, and the fact that we must find a mechanism to be able to carry it out recognizes the importance of it for healthy communities. It talks about the need to ensure that new technologies are also coming on line and that we are investing as we go forward on all those issues.

We have a great opportunity with the throne speech to set us in a new direction. The Prime Minister said an urban strategy for the 21st century. Clearly he showed the vision to put that in the throne speech and it is one thing that we all need to appreciate how wonderful it was. It talked about so many issues that matter to all of us as Canadians. We can work together to ensure that we are building a strong and powerful country.

[John Williams, Canadian Alliance, St. Albert, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I was listening intently to the hon. member's speech. I noticed that she said how much the government reaffirmed its commitment to health care. We have also had the Prime Minister confirm that he is waiting for the Romanow commission report that is coming down very soon to tell us how to administer our health care. If that report says that we need to bring in some private investment money into health care, will that continue to enjoy her support if that is the recommendation of the Romanow commission?

[Judy Sgro, Liberal, York West, ON]

Mr. Speaker, we all wait with much anticipation for the Romanow commission report to come out. We all recognize that when we talk about a compassionate and caring society, we talk about a good quality health care system.

There was a recent survey done a couple of weeks ago that found that nine out of ten people in Ontario were satisfied with the health care system. So maybe it is not as bad as we all tend to think it is. I look forward to the Romanow commission and I look forward to working with my government and everybody else involved in ensuring that we have a strong, powerful health care system.

[John Williams, Canadian Alliance, St. Albert, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order. I just want to ask if that was a yes.

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bélair)]

The hon. member will have to figure that out by himself.

[Jean-Yves Roy, Bloc, Matapédia—Matane, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I listened to my colleague and I heard her talk a lot about the regions, but she was talking almost exclusively about urban areas. If she read the throne speech carefully and if she listened to it attentively, she knows that it is quite obvious that the government intends to invest in urban areas only.

Rural areas are being totally abandoned. I will give an example. In my region, Air Canada is getting ready to drop air service. We will virtually have no services left in my region. The same goes for the Gaspé, for the Magdalen Islands, for all rural areas.

I simply want to remind my colleague that nearly 80% of public service cuts made by the Liberal government have been in areas such as mine, that is in so-called rural areas.

I understand that the member represents an urban riding, but I would like to ask her if the government has thought about rural areas in the throne speech.

My answer is no, but I would like to have her answer.

[Judy Sgro, Liberal, York West, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I can answer that question quite clearly. Yes, I view Canada as one country. We talk about rural and urban regions. Urban Canada needs to do well but so does rural Canada.

There were cuts made when we first came into office because we had to deal with an enormous debt. Nobody necessarily wanted to make cuts. They were necessary to get through the debt that we had to carry. Investment in urban and rural regions is just as important. One feeds off the other and is very important to the quality of life we all want to enjoy. Regardless of where someone comes from, we are Canadians and we are proud of Canada and we want to ensure that all regions are healthy.

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Musquodoboit Valley—Eastern Shore, NS]

Mr. Speaker, I do not feel any better today than I did yesterday. The reality of the throne speech is that it completely ignored the issues of Atlantic Canada, namely the fishing industry, the coast guard and coastal patrols. The most important needs of our military have been completely ignored. Military spending was strictly ignored.

At the same time the government is taking $60 million out of the Atlantic economy for the airport security tax and only putting $10 million back in for security. Where is the other $50 million? Why is the government so ignorant when it comes to rural issues, shipbuilding, the military, farmers and especially seniors in rural areas, those who were at one time collecting the disability tax credit?

The hon. member may not understand or may not realize that the government is now changing the definition of feeding oneself and clothing oneself which makes it even more restrictive for the most vulnerable in our society to collect the tax credit. Why is the government so hateful and hurtful toward those people in Atlantic and rural Canada?

[Judy Sgro, Liberal, York West, ON]

Mr. Speaker, when I spoke earlier I talked about why I am a member of Parliament. The throne speech was reflective of what I think most of us, at least those who sit on this side of the House, want Canada to be, which is compassionate and caring. That includes all Canadians regardless of whether they are from the west or from the Maritimes. It makes no difference. We care about all Canadians and our job is to ensure a good quality of life for everyone.

[John Williams, Canadian Alliance, St. Albert, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I will be splitting my time with the member for Elk Island. I want to focus this afternoon on the ethics deficit by the government.

As the chair of the public accounts committee in the previous session and in the previous parliament, I spent a lot of time dealing with the problems that have arisen in the government and how, on behalf of Canadian taxpayers, we could make some progress to ensure that they get value for money, that the government works for them and so on.

We find that the ethics deficit we have had for a long time is continuing because the Prime Minister made some vague noises in the throne speech, but we have yet to see what he intends to do. As the leader of our party, the member for Calgary Southwest, pointed out this morning, it was in the red book in 1993, the government said that it would introduce an ethics commissioner to ensure that the ethical standards of the House and the Government of Canada were beyond reproach.

What did we get? We got an ethics counsellor who became a lapdog instead of a watchdog. He reports to the Prime Minister, gives the Prime Minister advice how to answer questions and how to deflect questions on ethics. That is not an ethics commissioner. That is some lapdog who keeps the Prime Minister protected from answering the difficult questions on ethics. That cannot be.

We had the Groupaction scandal investigated by the public accounts committee. This is the type of thing that an ethics code would prevent happening in the first place. I cannot see why the government is dragging its feet.

We have asked the Prime Minister time and again in the House about an ethics commissioner. He keeps coming back and saying that an ethics counsellor is fine. It is not fine. He brags about the fact that we do not need more ethics rules in the House because things are great. Let me tell the Prime Minister and the government in the House that they are so far behind they think they are first. That is why they think they are first.

There are codes of conduct elsewhere. For example, Australia, the Czech Republic, France, Germany, Hungary, Italy, Japan, New Zealand, Poland, Switzerland, Turkey, the United States and the United Kingdom either have codes of conduct or a requirement for members of parliament to declare their personal assets. In Canada, nothing. We are so far behind the Prime Minister thinks he is first.

There are two countries in the G-8 that do not have codes of conduct. One is Russia and the other is Canada. We are in with Russia rather than the developed countries. This is shameful. Surely it is more than time.

Let us take, for example, our neighbours to the south. They have a whole package on house ethics and rules. I have a copy of it right here. They have statements on errant income restrictions: members and all employees, no honoraria. It is in big bold letters. No honoraria. It is fairly simple stuff. Does one think the Prime Minister could rise in the House someday, sometime, and say, “No honoraria”. Is that too hard? Obviously it is too hard.

What else does it say under errant income restrictions? The errant income limit is 15% of a member's salary level. Is that hard to figure out? What else? It deals with conflicts of interest, return on investments and so on. It states that a member should vote on matters unless legislation uniquely affects personal and financial interests. We wonder what happened to the former minister of public works, how often he was voting on a personal interest, because we never found out what he was up to.

On post-employment restrictions, there is one year after leaving office before anyone can do anything. Yet we see people being promoted out of this House into ambassadorships and other kinds of posts around the country to move them out of the embarrassment of having to answer for their ethical behaviour in the House. They get posted to Denmark and other places.

We plead, on this side of the House, for the Prime Minister to stand up and say such things as no honoraria, no ethical conflicts.

What else does it talk about? Gifts. There is a maximum of $250 in one year from one source. Do you know what the rule is regarding gifts in this House, Mr. Speaker? The Prime Minister in this House can accept a gift from any country around the world of any value and he can keep it as his personal gift. All he has to do is declare it, to say “I got a gift worth $10,000, $20,000, $30,000 from the government of wherever, but it is mine because I declared it”. The only illegality is not to say he received it. In the United States, every gift received by the head of state belongs to the state. It is fairly simple stuff, but here in Canada it is all personal and the only time the rule is broken is if it is not declared.

What else do they have? They have rules on travel. They have rules on financial disclosure. Where are our rules on financial disclosure? We do not have any rules on financial disclosure.

On staff rights and duties, staff cannot work on campaigns by ministers. There is some question about the Minister of Industry, the former minister of health, and what his staff were doing, but we could not get the access to information. We could not get the answer to that because it was blocked. We could never find out why that staff member went to Winnipeg. Was he working on a campaign or was he working on government business? We cannot find out.

On communications to government agencies: Avoid favouritism. It goes on: involvement with outside entities. They also have campaign activities: no contributions directed to congressional officers. You cannot pick up the money through your government office. It goes on. I could give this to the Prime Minister rather than having him try to figure out this complex thing, which has taken him eight or nine years and he still is not there. It is only about 10 or 15 pages. He can get a copy of it.

There are also, of course, our friends in the United Kingdom. They have a wonderful code of conduct. It basically covers, I think, some seven different principles. They have selflessness, duty to your constituents, and integrity. Integrity is a word that does not get used very often, but integrity is important. They have objectivity, accountability, openness, honesty and leadership. There are the principles and then they have a synopsis of these ideas.

Under selflessness, the code states “Holders of public office should take decisions solely in terms of the public interest”. It states “solely in terms of the public interest”. It continues “They should not do so in order to gain financial or other material benefits for themselves, their family, or their friends”. Some people may say that goes without saying. Obviously the Prime Minister's opinion is that it goes without saying, because he has not said it. We have to write it down and make everyone abide by these things because that is why we have all these sleaze accusations coming from the government.

If the government wants to avoid that, it is fairly simple. It can adopt a code of conduct and have an ethics commissioner reporting to Parliament to enforce it. That way it would, hopefully, be above reproach.

The code continues, under integrity stating that “Holders of public office should not place themselves under any financial or other obligations” and so on and so forth. I have it all here. It is available to anyone who wants it.

I am waiting for the Prime Minister's call. I would be glad to give him a copy of what is done in the United Kingdom, the United States, Australia, the Czech Republic, France, Germany, Hungary, Italy, Japan, New Zealand, Poland, Switzerland, Turkey and so on. Surely it is our turn. We are waiting.

[John Bryden, Liberal, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Aldershot, ON]

Mr. Speaker, no contest: We on this side agree entirely with the remarks made by the member opposite and point out that it is right in the Speech from the Throne, where it states that the government is going to “provide clear guidance and better enforcement of the ethical standards expected of elected officials”.

I agree that it is overdue, but I would like to ask the member opposite, is he going to actually walk the talk? Because in the same paragraph on page 13 of the Speech from the Throne, it is also said that “the government will introduce legislative changes to the financing of political parties and candidates for office”. Does he not agree that we ought to know who is behind the National Citizens' Coalition, which was the former employer of the Leader of the Opposition? Does he not agree that the Leader of the Opposition should declare who is behind the financing of his leadership campaign in his campaign for office?

[John Williams, Canadian Alliance, St. Albert, AB]

Mr. Speaker, we are still waiting for legislation to cancel the GST too. Until I see legislation on the table I am going to reserve judgment because the proof is in the pudding and we are still waiting for the legislation. Members may remember that the Liberals promised ethics legislation nine years ago. Nine years ago they said they would cancel the GST. Neither has happened. We are not sure about this particular commitment in this Speech from the Throne because we heard the Leader of the Opposition tell us today how many promises have been broken.

I agree with the member on openness and transparency, but I also agreed with the leader of the official opposition when he said today that we do not regulate and restrict the freedom of expression by Canadians. Rather, we restrict what political parties can do. That is the fundamental thing that members over there cannot figure out. They want to restrict what Canadians can do. They want this top-down, Communist style of government whereas we want openness, transparency, freedom of action and freedom of expression, and the limit is on political parties.

[Pat Martin, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Mr. Speaker, I thank the hon. member for his remarks in regard to ethics and for trying to elevate the standards of morals and ethics within government. I would ask him, though, if his party agrees that one important step that could have been taken is the step that was taken recently in the province of Manitoba. In that province, in the interest of clarity and the interest of stopping abuse or for ethical reasons, all contributions to political parties from unions, corporations or businesses were banned. The only person who can make a political campaign contribution is somebody who is on the registered voters list.

Would the hon. member agree that the Speech from the Throne is an opportunity to announce this type of measure banning all corporate and union donations from the political process?

[John Williams, Canadian Alliance, St. Albert, AB]

Mr. Speaker, it is a great idea that was not contained in the Speech from the Throne, but it certainly was in the speech made this morning by the leader of the official opposition.

[Peter Adams, Liberal, Peterborough, ON]

Mr. Speaker, if there is only a brief time, I would like to make a comment. I do agree with the member that there is always scope for improvement in transparency and openness. But when he reads out a list of parliaments like that, I truly believe that in most respects this Parliament is the best, in terms of openness to the media, for example, just outside this door, in terms of the television coverage which we receive and which any committee of the House can now receive, in terms of support for members of Parliament and their staff and the opportunity we all have to travel the country and deal with our constituents, and in terms of the decentralization of power. In Canada, Parliament is not the only seat of power and in most of the countries he described parliament actually is.

I believe we have the best Elections Act in the world, although it requires improvement. I think the member gets carried away. To damn this House and put it at the bottom of the list that he described is a disgrace, I think, and a discredit to us. In general this is the most open and transparent parliament in the world.

[John Williams, Canadian Alliance, St. Albert, AB]

Mr. Speaker, it is fine to let in television cameras, but we do not have access to information. When we cannot examine the expense accounts of ministers' employees who may or may not have been travelling on public business or other business, all the cameras in the world will not resolve that issue. It is openness, freedom of information and transparency, as the member said. That is what we want. We want a commitment to a set of standards. That is why we need a code of ethics and a code of standards in the House. We consider ourselves great. As I have always said, we always think we are good until we check with somebody else and find out they are doing things better. We can do it better. We must do it better.

[Ken Epp, Canadian Alliance, Elk Island, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I am greatly honoured to be able to speak on the information that has been given to Canadian people through the throne speech.

I read it with interest. I have to confess that I was one who did not go down to the Senate yesterday. I always think it is ironic. The Usher of the Black Rod comes from the Senate, bangs on the door and very solemnly declares that the people of the House are invited to the Senate to hear the Speech from the Throne. I have gone there five times, each throne speech until this one. I get to the door and they will not let me in. I think that is somehow wrong. I am a parliamentarian. I am here to represent around 100,000 people in the wonderful riding of Elk Island. It insults all of us.

What would happen if I asked my friends over for a social visit, then when they rang the doorbell I opened the door a crack, stood there for about 45 minutes and had a visit but never let them in? It is disrespectful and I think it is a symptom of what is wrong in this place, that is, parliamentarians are second class in terms of the parliamentary process. It is run as a top-down organization.

I would like to follow up somewhat on the speech that my colleague from St. Albert just gave. It had to do with ethical behaviour. I have a theory. I have developed it over a number of years. As members can tell, I am old enough to have developed a whole bunch of theories, many of which I have discarded, but some of them have endured. This one has endured because I have observed it during my lifetime and indeed in my own life, and that is that all behaviour, whether it is classified as ethical or unethical, good or bad, right or wrong, is driven or instructed by one's beliefs. If one believes something, that is how one is going to act.

I think of some unethical behaviour. For example, not long ago in a Canadian city which I will not identify, some young people jumped into a car, hot-wired it, made it go and went off for a ride in a car that was not theirs. Obviously their beliefs were that it did not matter, that somehow they were entitled to do this even though the vehicle belonged to someone else. Unfortunately the chase resulted in an accident with some injuries. It is very unfortunate that those people behaved that way because in their minds at that time they thought it was correct.

If I can make a huge leap here, the individuals who flew airplanes into buildings a little over a year ago believed at the time that it was okay. They were totally informed, or misinformed I might say. Their beliefs instructed their behaviour.

I wish we did not need to have this debate in the House. Realistically speaking, it should not be necessary. However, here we are in Canada's Parliament and one of our big functions here is to pass laws. I always say that certain laws are not necessary. For example, there should be no law necessary that states one shall not murder. To me that is self-evident. It is built into my moral structure. It is a belief I have which instructs my behaviour. I am not inclined to go around taking other people's lives, yet we see over and over again or on the news that people do this by whatever means and for whatever reasons. To me, it is the belief that drives the action. Why, then, do we have a law? It is against the law in Canada to commit murder. Why do we need that law? That law is needed in order to show people who do not have that belief built in what the standard is.

That is why the rules and the laws are required. I suppose it is one of the reasons we need a code of conduct for parliamentarians. Some people are ignorant of what is acceptable.

I do not know how I can make this leap politely so I will jump right into it. We often follow leadership in terms of what standards we accept. I have observed this in families and in my own children. They will generally adopt behaviour they have learned at home as acceptable and they will avoid behaviour which is demonstrated or which is taught by word as being unacceptable. Much to my regret, I have to point the finger right at the top leadership of the federal government that is presently governing this country. Why is it that we are embroiled in these debates on ethical behaviour? Why did it have to appear in the throne speech? It was because there has been a serious breach of ethical behaviour by the top members of the Liberal government and I would venture to say even as far as right to the Prime Minister.

I will give an example. When dealing with the issues in the Prime Minister's riding we demanded answers. We got runarounds, we got cover-up. On an opposition day, the official opposition moved a motion that there be an independent inquiry. The Prime Minister directed the cabinet ministers who in turn I guess sent the message to the whip who sent the message to the Liberal members. While every opposition member of the House voted in favour of an independent inquiry to look into the Shawinigan shenanigans, every member in the Liberal Party said, “No, we don't want an independent inquiry”. Frankly, I consider that an admission of guilt. That is very simple. It is not a large leap.

If I am innocent and somebody was proposing to investigate the occurrence, I would welcome it. I would say to do it as soon as possible and get it under way because if I am innocent, that inquiry will find me innocent . If it has the authenticity of being independent and not directed by the person who is being investigated, then it also has the ability to totally clear the name and exonerate the person who is under suspicion. The Prime Minister chose not to allow that inquiry, and he has killed a number of other inquiries.

I am sure in questions and comments someone will say that one could argue that perhaps it was an unnecessary expense or perhaps there might be other reasons. In something so serious, I think the money would have been very well spent. I believe that it was shut down because the government did not want to find the true facts in the issue.

I found an interesting quote:

Yet after nine years of [this government's] rule, cynicism about public institutions, governments, politicians and the political process is at an all-time high.... This erosion of confidence seems to have many causes: some have to do with the behaviour of certain elected politicians, others with an arrogant style of political leadership.

That quotation, with one change, comes from the 1993 red book. It was nine years ago when we had had nine years of Conservative government. In order to add drama to the quotation, I omitted the word “Conservative”. In 2002 we could as easily change it to Liberal rule and ask what has changed.

It is interesting that the Liberals who were proposing to become the government at that time said, “We are going to clean this up”. Among other things, they promised to have an ethics commissioner, which by the way is based on exactly the same principle. The 1993 red book offered an independent ethics councillor for exactly the same reasons that I said the independent hearing was necessary. It would have given authenticity to a ruling whether it went one way or the other.

What did the government do? It gave us an ethics counsellor who reports to the Prime Minister and who would have to report to the very person under investigation in that issue. That is not acceptable.

We gave the government an opportunity to actually live up to its promise by making that very clause, word for word, a supply day motion. Again, every Liberal voted against it.

Mr. Speaker, you do not know how sorry I am that I am not the leader of the official opposition today. Then I would have had unlimited time and I could have carried on.

[John Bryden, Liberal, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Aldershot, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I appreciated the member for Elk Island suggesting that leadership demands the ultimate in integrity and transparency.

I would ask him in the context of his remarks, would he therefore support what is proposed in the Speech from the Throne that there be transparency in the financing of candidates for high office? In particular, the Leader of the Opposition is suspected of receiving financing from the National Citizens Coalition, which he was formerly employed by, which we on this side suspect is financed in turn by social conservative interests in the United States.

I ask him, would he support, as suggested in the Speech from the Throne, transparency on the part of the Leader of the Opposition that he should declare who financed his leadership campaign and who financed those who financed it?

[Ken Epp, Canadian Alliance, Elk Island, AB]

Mr. Speaker, that is an excellent question and my answer is short and succinct. I would indeed favour that whatever rules were established, we would live by them.

If there is to be transparency for leadership campaigns and election campaigns, of course, but let it not be one sided and I will give the reason. Why would the leader of the official opposition even hesitate to declare his sources? It is very simple. We have seen preference given by the government to people who have contributed to Liberal Party causes. There is obviously a risk to people who contribute to an opposition party's campaign. They would lose government contracts as long as those people are in business under their present mode of operation.

We have to be very careful when we talk about that. Will we take away their freedom or will we give them more freedom? In this particular instance we have to have the same rules for everybody to level that playing field. Otherwise it is like playing football with all the players on one side having their feet tied to the ground.

[Peter Adams, Liberal, Peterborough, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I always listen with interest to what the member has to say. I am sorry that he is not the leader of the official opposition.

I know that in a previous life he was a teacher and taught mathematics. I know he is very interested in young people. One of the features of the Speech from the Throne is its emphasis on young people, starting with headstart programs for infants, early childhood development programs and things of that type. Like most members of the House, I think anything we can do to help young people is a wonderful thing.

I know the hon. member studies these things much more than I do. There is a paragraph which I have not heard mentioned or repeated by anybody. It is on page 12. It says that the government will create more opportunities for young Canadians to help clean up our environment and assist in achieving Canada's global priorities, particularly in Africa.

The hon. member has a great interest in young people. Most of us would like to think of our young people being happy and creatively and constructively involved in things like the environment or, as it says here, in Africa. We recall decades ago when Katimavik was at its peak, it offered activities to young people both in Canada and overseas. Katimavik still exists and does wonderful work.

I wonder if the member has any ideas about how he sees this paragraph as being--

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bélair)]

The hon. member for Elk Island.