Debates of May 28th, 2002

Supply

[Pat O'Brien, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for International Trade]

Mr. Speaker, I have heard about all the government's so-called shortcomings on trade from the NDP member opposite, yet on the subcommittee on trade, which is a subcommittee of the foreign affairs committee, we go through meeting after meeting and consultation after consultation with no representation from the NDP party. I am sorry, but it is very difficult to just sit here and be preached at by a member from the NDP when we see so little involvement by that party when the actual work is being done in committee.

The member said that we should be seeking other markets. I want to ask him if he is totally unaware of the fact that the government has been doing just that. One of our initiatives is on the bilateral front. We have a successful Canada-Chile free trade agreement, which is growing. The growing numbers are very encouraging. We are in the process of concluding a Canada-Costa Rica free trade agreement. Admittedly that would be a smaller market, but it goes along with the theme the member rightly espoused, which is that we should be seeking other markets. Indeed, we are seeing other markets. That was one of the reasons why the government supported the inclusion of Mexico in NAFTA.

The trade committee that I mentioned has just returned from a trade trip to Latin America to look at these possibilities, again with no NDP participation whatsoever. Maybe the member could address this lack of NDP participation and tell us whether or not he has any awareness of the active seeking of other markets by--

[The Deputy Speaker]

Order, please. The hon. member for Churchill.

[Bev Desjarlais, NDP, Churchill, MB]

Mrs. Bev Desjarlais (Churchill, NDP)Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order. I wonder if it is the usual practice to draw attention to members not attending committee meetings, or to days such as today, with hardly any Liberal members in the House.

[The Deputy Speaker]

We are of course very familiar with the practice in regard to any reference to the absence of members in the Chamber. I would hope that by extension we would also offer each other and colleagues of all parties the same respect with regard to work outside the Chamber and, by extension, in committees. That is not as clear, but I would hope that within the spirit of this place, if not in its written form, most of us would understand and would probably be supportive of that same respect. At this point I simply draw this to the attention of the House and ask for co-operation and the exercise of best judgment, as is the practice.

The time has lapsed in this intervention, but I will give the hon. member for Palliser an opportunity to respond briefly to the parliamentary secretary's intervention.

[Dick Proctor, NDP, Palliser, SK]

Mr. Speaker, I will be very brief. The parliamentary secretary asked if I was aware of other interventions, such as Canada-Chile, to expand trade. Yes, of course we are aware of them, but the fact of the matter is that our trade with the United States, on a percentage basis, is increasing faster and faster. It used to be 80%. It is now, according to his statistics, 85.1%. We recently had a spokesman here from the European Union who was anxious to see more two way trade between Canada and Europe but did not feel that the Europeans were getting much response in that matter.

[Bev Desjarlais, NDP, Churchill, MB]

Mr. Speaker, once again we see how distracted the government is in dealing with the corruption and political wrangling of its members and largely ignoring the pressing issues that are of concern to Canadians.

It has been nearly a month since the U.S. announced plans to impose 27% tariffs on Canadian softwood and nearly a week since the tariffs came into effect. In the past month the U.S. has greatly increased its subsidies to U.S. agriculture. In that time all we have received from the government is talk and promises without any substantive progress.

The government has wasted so many opportunities with the U.S. government by putting up meaningless resistance and simply giving in to all its demands. Now at a time when Canadians require strong action and a firm stand on the issues, the government is simply being ignored by the U.S.

The government has set the precedent and the U.S. is continuing along those lines. It is unfortunate but true to say that the U.S. has no reason to believe that the Canadian government and people are in strong opposition to the U.S. actions given the government's past weakness in response to similar actions.

Canada's lumber and agriculture industries need substantive action from the government. Unfortunately the government seems unable to provide that action, unable to protect Canadian industries from the protectionist U.S. actions and tariffs. Consequently it is sacrificing Canadian industries and Canadian workers in their time of need.

It is the government that brought us free trade and all the promises attached of Canadian goods trading and selling in the U.S. market. Now free trade and NAFTA are being exposed as a one way street with American goods flooding the Canadian market, while Canadian goods and industries run into a steel wall that extends across our shared border. While it is true that this border is undefended in military terms, this action brings home the reality that not only is this border defended but it is representative of an aggressive and dominating giant which has no interest in dealing fairly with Canada and Canadian companies.

Where are the great Canadian defenders of NAFTA now? Why do they remain silent when Canadian industries and workers suffer at the hands of American protectionist policies? It is time for the Government of Canada and the opposition to step forward with a single voice and declare that this is not free trade and it is not fair trade. It is a time for us all to stand resolute in support of Canadian industries, lumber and agriculture, workers and farmers and show them that the Canadian government is their government and will act in their best interests.

The government has shown its willingness to relent to the desires and interests of the United States and in doing so has sacrificed Canadian industries and workers. It is safe to say that Canada is hemorrhaging jobs and industry to the United States and Mexico as a direct result of NAFTA. The best remedy the government has been able to offer is bandages. Bandages will not stop the bleeding from a wound such as this. It is time for the government to take strong and decisive measures to save Canadian industries and workers and to preserve the standard of living that Canadians enjoy and deserve.

I believe the situation with these tariffs and subsidies demonstrates clearly just how serious a failure the Canada-U.S. Free Trade Agreement and NAFTA have been and the great cost they have had and continue to have on Canadian industries. These are not the first instances of Canadian industries being punished for the failure of U.S. equivalents. We all know of the problems that Canada's steel industry has had gaining access for its products in the U.S. market. It is the same for Canadian lumber and agriculture. When the United States is not able to compete, it simply chooses to ignore NAFTA and other agreements and acts to protect its industries. We see the same attitude in the continued American overfishing of depleted fish stocks. All too often the government is slow to react.

Canada and Canadian industries have been dealt a double blow. The government is again slow to react and is impotent in its dealings with the United States. It is strange to see that the United States, a party to NAFTA and a great beneficiary of it, so freely ignores it when it suits its purposes to do so while Canada continues to work to resolve trade disputes with the United States through NAFTA and is subsequently ignored by the U.S.

If the United States chooses to ignore and reject NAFTA, it is clear that Canada should do so as well. Why do we continue to handicap ourselves while the U.S. abuses us and our goodwill? The government and opposition must make a unified call for fair and open access to U.S. markets with a level playing field for all Canadian industries and producers. They must work to protect Canadian jobs and end the flow of jobs from Canada to the U.S. and Mexico.

Part of this would mean increasing the restrictions on raw log exports to the United States; keeping manufacturing and production jobs here where skilled workers await the opportunity to demonstrate their craft and skill; revitalizing our own lumber usage within Canada and increasing our focus on overseas markets in Europe and Asia, making us less dependent on the United States; and addressing the urban and first nations housing crisis by activating CMHC and increasing its role in providing low income housing.

The government must also act to prevent Canadian lumber companies from going out of business while this dispute drags on. This can be achieved through increasing the investment in the non-profit housing sector; stimulating domestic demand for softwood lumber; and modifying the qualification criteria for the Export Development Corporation's bond program to enable more lumber companies to qualify.

We must also voice our concerns that the rights of corporations are being allowed to take precedence over the rights of citizens and local, provincial, first nations and federal governments. We must encourage and support programs aimed at employment retraining and continuing education.

The sad truth is that this instance of tariffs on Canadian lumber did not arise overnight. Many of us saw it coming years ago when the softwood lumber dispute began. At that time we called on the Prime Minister and the government to develop an assistance package for laid off lumber industry workers. The response was always the same: wait until we resolve the dispute.

Now the dispute lies unresolved, having led to the imposition of U.S. trade tariffs, many more lumber industry workers being laid off and no assistance package. These workers and their families now struggle, having been insultingly ignored by the government which has once again waited to react instead of being proactive. As these tariffs come into full effect and take hold, more mills will close. Literally tens of thousands more people will lose their jobs and their families will struggle because the government did not react to assist them.

The drastic cuts to the employment insurance program since 1993 have made EI of little help to anyone who loses his or her job, including Canada's lumber industry workers, especially if as predicted the dispute takes a year or more to resolve. Shame on the government if it now claims that this was unforeseeable, that there was nothing it could do to predict or prepare for these circumstances.

The New Democratic Party fully supports the government's decision to appeal the U.S. tariffs to the World Trade Organization and to the North American Free Trade Agreement panel. We also stress the need for Canada not to back down to these United States actions. We call on the government to act to limit the ramifications of the tariffs and agriculture subsidies on the Canadian lumber and agriculture industries.

Without an aid package from the government to support laid off workers and struggling companies and to assist Canadian farmers, we will find that by the time the dispute is resolved through NAFTA and the WTO the costs will be so great as to outweigh the benefits. It is vital that Canada not back down. We must maintain a unified front with the provinces and assert our interests in these international forums.

There are indications that the goal of the United States government is to protract this dispute for as long as possible to devastate our lumber industry, eliminating the competition to the faltering U.S. lumber industry, making it competitive again in the North American market. This is not the way free trade by any definition is meant to work. The government's inaction could prove as devastating as the American government's actions.

The position of the New Democratic Party is that the government's actions and its inaction are significant factors in the United States trade action against Canadian agriculture and softwood lumber. Its actions sent the United States government the message that trade action against Canada would receive no substantive action on Canada's part. Now our farmers and lumber industry workers struggle with no assistance package from the government. The government's reaction to the U.S. tariffs and subsidies has indeed proven to lack substance.

I emphasize that in 1998 Canada and U.S. pasta producers argued that Italy was unfairly dumping cheap pasta into the local markets. The U.S. government agreed and began collecting punitive damages. What did Canada do? Nothing. Now the U.S. government has taken the $20 million from those punitive damages and given it back to the industry. What has the Canadian government done? Nothing. That is the problem. The U.S. government is standing up for U.S. companies. The Canadian government is doing nothing.

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Musquodoboit Valley—Eastern Shore, NS]

Mr. Speaker, the reality is that nobody should be surprised by the protectionist actions of the United States. This is what it does best. It looks after itself first. We were sucked into a deal many years ago.

Our auto sector will be in a major crisis soon. Shipbuilding has been all but abandoned by the government. Now our agricultural and softwood lumber producers are in serious trouble. They understand the ramifications of these deals and the need for rules, but they want open access to markets and they want a level playing field. They are getting nothing but lip service from the government. The government talks about revisions to the deal or taking the issue to various trade dispute panels but that takes time. Meanwhile people cannot feed their families.

My hon. colleague mentioned something about a housing program for aboriginal people. Canada has markets that can be served through innovative ideas of the government and the House of Commons. I would like her to elaborate on a national housing strategy which would put a lot of people back to work and house the homeless in the country.

[Bev Desjarlais, NDP, Churchill, MB]

Mr. Speaker, there is absolutely no question there is a major housing crisis in Canada, certainly in urban areas as well as in first nations communities. We as a party have long maintained that the federal government has absolved itself of any responsibility whatsoever for low income housing in Canada. As a result there is a major problem.

Studies indicate that $1 billion yearly over 10 years would address all the housing problems in Canada. That figure is probably higher now because the studies were done some time ago. Now more than ever we should be utilizing our dollars and assisting our industry. It is the time to address the housing crisis in Canada. Once again the government cannot see the answer which is sitting right in front of it. The government just will not do it.

[Pat O'Brien, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for International Trade]

Mr. Speaker, we heard the NDP ideology of how trade should be and how we have to get other markets and that the government does not care about workers. There is nothing wrong with getting other markets. As was noted by the two NDP members, our trade with the United States continues to grow. That is the reality given our geographical position.

Does the member think the Government of Canada somehow has control over business people and where they go with their markets? I know she is a member of the NDP, but does she not understand the basic principle of the movement of goods and services?

[Bev Desjarlais, NDP, Churchill, MB]

Mr. Speaker, as insulting as that question is, I will get beyond it. Does the Liberal government not realize that if it does not support these industries we are not going to have them?

[Pat O'Brien, Liberal, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Answer my question.

[Bev Desjarlais, NDP, Churchill, MB]

Of course we recognize that we do not have total control over markets and industries. If another country uses unfair practices and subsidizes its industries through unique measures that it does not call subsidies, in order to fight that we must do something as well to protect and sustain our industries. That is what this is about.

I do not for one second believe that other countries utilizing Canada's lumber industry will totally save it, but right now we need to put additional dollars into it to help it get through this rough time. That is the important thing we should be doing.

[Darrel Stinson, Canadian Alliance, Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

Mr. Speaker, the government knew for years that the softwood lumber agreement was coming to a conclusion and would be gone. For years it did absolutely nothing. The minister and other government members told us time after time to quit being alarmists as they were working on this issue.

Any government with an IQ of a light bulb would have put in place some kind of program, a plan B for example, for workers and industry when this went down. Would they--

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bélair)]

The hon. member for Churchill.

[Bev Desjarlais, NDP, Churchill, MB]

Mr. Speaker, without question something preventive should have been done to put us in a position to fight the tariffs being put in place by the U.S. There is no question the government should have done a whole lot more and it failed to do so.

[Bill Casey, Progressive Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to rise for this debate. It is a subject we have talked about on several occasions, it continues to go on and on and it will go on as long as the government is here.

I will be dividing my time with the member for Brandon--Souris who will address the agricultural side to this debate and I will focus on softwood lumber.

The motion is really quite telling and I am sure the government cannot be too proud of it. It reads:

That this House has lost confidence in the government for its failure to persuade the U.S. government to end protectionist policies that are damaging Canada's agriculture and lumber industries and for failing to implement offsetting trade injury measures for the agriculture and lumber sectors.

The government has failed but it is not all its fault. The U.S. has used strong-armed tactics and taken a very inflexible approach. However the fact of the matter is that this government has failed Canadian industry whereas the American government has succeeded in representing American industry very well. The American industry interests are looked after and the Canadian industry interests are not. The government has failed because it has a lack of imagination, initiative and inability to bring together the industry, provinces and all stakeholders.

Everybody on the opposition side harped on for months and months about this. Rule one is that united we stand, divided we fall. The government allowed the Canadian initiative to be all over the board. Representatives from the provinces went to Washington. Representatives from the regions went to Washington. Lumber groups went to Washington. Then the federal government went to Washington and it was surprised to find out it was the last one to go and that everybody had been there before it. There has been a total lack of co-ordination with the industry and a total failure on behalf of the government.

It is a failure because we have a 27.2% tariff on our lumber industry. The government has failed where others have succeeded. Previous governments, and one of which I was a member, ran into the same opposition, the same protagonists, the same issues and the same arguments and we overcame them. This government has not been able to overcome them because it does not have the imagination or whatever it takes to do that. It has failed. It simply has not been able to match the Americans person per person in its arguments.

Now we find ourselves in a very serious situation. What are the results of the failure? Thousands of people in the industry will be laid off and are being laid off as we speak. Communities are totally affected because many of them are one industry towns. This means that the small businesses, the corner stores, the clothing stores, the car dealers and everybody are affected by the downturn when a mill closes in communities. It has a tremendous impact. Businesses will be lost, never to come back. Savings will be lost forever. Houses will be lost. The impact is pervasive in these communities, and this will happen across the country.

It means that kids will not go to university. There are so many impacts. What is the government reaction? The minister said that there were no direct job loses linked to the situation with the U.S. and that the government could not intervene every time there was a natural restructuring in one industry's market and that things would have to be sorted out. Ask the people who are losing their homes, their small businesses, their RRSPs, their retirements and everything else, if there is an impact. The minister said there were no direct job loses. That is just not true.

The failure is easy to explain. I picked out two quotes, one from an industry in Canada and one from the trade representative in the United States. The president of Doman Industries said:

Governments should be embarrassed by their lack of progress in negotiating a settlement and provide help to forest dependent communities

That is a Canadian industry saying that the government should be ashamed.

The other quote is by Mr. Zoellick, the U.S. trade representative. He said:

The sense I've gotten from the Canadian government is they're not interested in further discussions--they're going to play this out at the [World Trade Organization].

He went on to say that it was a callous and awful attitude to take. That was his impression of the Canadian government's reaction, that it did not want to negotiate or deal.

Meanwhile people and communities across the country are suffering and losing everything they have. The industry is in chaos. They do not know where to ship their products. They do not know whether to send them east, west, south or north. They do not know how to handle it.

From the beginning everyone on the opposition side said over and over to get the industry together and establish one strategy. It said not to let the provinces, or the lumber organizations or the regions go to Washington to independently negotiate. However that is what the government did. Instead of getting everyone together and allowing the federal government to negotiate the deal, it let everyone go to Washington. This happens frequently. Then when representatives of the Department of Foreign Affairs and International trade went down, they were the last ones to arrive. The Americans must be laughing at our approach to this. We have failed to develop a strategy which reflects the entire industry.

Let us compare this with how the U.S. government has done it. It has worked hand in hand with its industry. In fact, at the direction of the U.S. lumber industry, it has established strategies and tactics, exactly what the U.S. industry wants, and it has succeeded. The Canadian government does not bring the stakeholders together. It thinks it can do it all by itself. We have the provinces and the regions going to Washington. It must be a joke in Washington.

In the face of failure, how do we react? Do we reach out to the people affected? Do we try to help? No, the government has said that there are no job losses and that everything is just hunky-dory. It is like saying people have jobs but they cannot go to them and they will not get a paycheque. It is incredible how the government is allowing a wave of devastation to go across the country, one that will hurt all these communities.

The government has created the problem. It should be part of alleviating the problem. I am not saying it is simple because the Americans are tough negotiators. However the government has failed where other governments have succeeded in dealing with the same issue with the same people. It should stand and say that it is responsible and it will help.

I saw on television yesterday that the government announced a $20 million advertising program that would solve the problem. It will spend the money in the U.S. and probably funnel it through Groupaction in Quebec. The only result will be that the friends of the Liberals will get their kickbacks and their share of the $20 million.

[An hon. member]

Two for one.

[Bill Casey, Progressive Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

Two for one. From the beginning, members of the Progressive Conservative Party have pressed the government to do what we did when we were in power. We got the industry together and met with them regularly. I know because I was there. We met with the industry regularly. We succeeded in coming up with a strategy. We negotiated with the Americans and we came up with a settlement. We have encouraged the Liberals to follow our lead and do that again. Would they do it? No, they would not.

Now we find ourselves in a situation where we have a 27.2% duty on all softwood lumber going to the U.S. We have asked the government to fight back, not to just knuckle under and do what the U.S. says. We have asked it to argue from a position of strength, not from a position of weakness. We have asked it to stand up to the Americans like we did when we resolved this issue the last time.

The Progressive Conservative Party also has urged the government to deal with the victims of this. It is the government's fault and there are victims because of it. It should establish a cabinet committee at the very least to focus on this and not leave it up to one minister who passes it off to another minister who passes it off to another minister. There should be a committee responsible for dealing with this, with the negotiations and with the results of the failure.

The government should co-ordinate assistance and come up with programs to help the people in the industries and in the communities who are suffering so much from its failure.

We will be supporting this motion today, but it is really unfortunate that the motion is even here.

[Pat O'Brien, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for International Trade]

Mr. Speaker, I listened very carefully to the comments of my colleague. While I actually agreed with some things he said, I am afraid he took too much credit for the previous Conservative government. If the Conservative government had dealt with the root causes when it had the opportunity, we would not be in this position today.

Does the member not understand that this government has built the strongest national consensus on this issue ever, unlike the previous Mulroney government that he proudly cites? It did not deal with this in a long term solution and that is why we are back in this problem today.

Does the member not understand that there was a conscious decision of the provinces and industry to let the softwood lumber agreement run out, which would then gave us free trade? Except the Americans refused to accept that, refused to live up to being the free traders they claimed to be and launched these punitive actions.

I want to correct one point. For the U.S. trade representative, Mr. Zoellick, to say that Canada is not interested in trade talks is simply wrong. I do not know if my friend is quoting him correctly but I hope not because Mr. Zoellick knows better.

Canada is prepared to sit down when the United States is prepared to look at meaningful progress in these talks, otherwise we will fight this out at the WTO.

[Bill Casey, Progressive Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

Mr. Speaker, it is always an interesting debate with the parliamentary secretary. I am pleased to hear that he agreed with some of the things I said. I think that is the first time he has ever agreed with me on anything.

I am glad he agrees that the Conservatives were successful in resolving this issue. I believe that is what he said. Then he went on to blame the Conservatives. At some point in history, maybe 100 years from now, maybe the Liberals will stop blaming the Conservatives for everything they have failed in. The government has failed here where the Conservatives succeeded. The government is still blaming us even after three elections, if we can believe that.

The member said that they made a conscious decision to take this strategy. It is a strategy of zero action, which is not a strategy. The government had five years' warning. It knew this was coming. The government took no steps to get ready. It did not bring the industry together prior to the conclusion of the memorandum. It did nothing to get ready. It said that it would have a strategy of doing nothing that came back and hit it on the side of the head.

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Musquodoboit Valley—Eastern Shore, NS]

Mr. Speaker, I thank my colleague from Nova Scotia for his speech. He, as well as everyone else who comes from Atlantic Canada, knows full well the effects on families and communities when an industry dies. I am thinking of course of the groundfish collapse in 1992.

As we speak, whole logs are leaving British Columbia and going into the United States. These are logs and those are jobs. Those are jobs that are being exported from Canada to mills in the United States.

If the Conservatives were the government, would my hon. colleague make a suggestion to stop the export of whole logs into the United States?

[Bill Casey, Progressive Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

Mr. Speaker, that is an interesting question. I live right on the border between Nova Scotia and New Brunswick and I see whole logs going from Nova Scotia to New Brunswick all the time. It is a different thing and it is within Canada. However it still is an export of jobs and it is a concern.

Certainly these are Canadian resources and Canadians should have the benefit of them. If there are jobs created, those jobs should be created in Canada.

The hon. member mentioned the impact on communities when industries die. Yes, we have seen more than our share of that in Atlantic Canada. We can speak with some authority on the impact.

[Rick Borotsik, Progressive Conservative, Brandon—Souris, MB]

Mr. Speaker, a comment was made by the Minister for International Trade that I found to be the most insensitive comment I have heard since I have been in the House. The comment was that there was no job loss in the softwood industry; it was simply a matter of restructuring the industry.

Does the member have any specifics? I do not mean to put him on the spot, but does he see in his own constituency any of that restructuring the minister talked about and the job loss, unfortunately, which is being affected by that restructuring or in fact by the problem with the softwood lumber trade?

[Bill Casey, Progressive Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

Mr. Speaker, Atlantic Canada is exempt from some of those duties because its lumber trade practices are agreeable to the Americans. However when the western provinces lose their market in the U.S. they begin shipping lumber to Atlantic Canada which does not have the market to absorb it all. The supply and demand ratio reaches such a condition that the local producers then have a problem competing with all the lumber coming in because of the lost market in the U.S. which was due to the Liberal government's failure to negotiate a deal with the U.S.

[Rick Borotsik, Progressive Conservative, Brandon—Souris, MB]

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to speak to the motion. I use the word pleased somewhat reluctantly because it would have been much better if the government had reacted to the two circumstances that we are dealing with right now, which is the softwood lumber trade dispute as well as the farm bill. If it had dealt with those two issues we would not be standing here and my producers and the individuals involved in the softwood lumber industry would not be suffering as much as they are.

I was actually very saddened when I listened to the very ineffective excuses of the parliamentary secretary for international trade. He is turning a blind eye to the situation. He and his government are sticking their heads in the sand. They recognize that there are certain issues with the United States and its protectionism but they say that it is not their fault. As a matter of fact he wanted to know how the government could be expected to resolve those problems when the European Union, Britain and even Mexico could not resolve them. He wanted to know why we would expect the government to resolve the problems with trade, which affects so many people in agriculture and softwood lumber.

If that is their attitude then they should not be putting any positions forward. If any other countries have problems with the United States and its protectionism, we should let them deal with it. We will simply come in on their coattails, as we have always done, and pick up the pieces at that point.

I am saddened that is the attitude of international trade and certainly the attitude of the parliamentary secretary.