Debates of Dec. 9th, 2004

Supply

[Mark Warawa, Conservative, Langley, BC]

Mr. Speaker, on the silt buildup, a pipeline runs from Langley Township into McMillan Island. Silt is now building up from that pipeline and going upstream. Silt has been continuing to build up since the pipeline was put in, and it has not been maintained.

The maintenance of the Fraser River was the responsibility of the Coast Guard. Up to Langley, it is now the responsibility of the Fraser port authority. The Coast Guard, with an agreement, gave $14 million to the Fraser port authority to maintain the Fraser River. The funds were insufficient but that was all that was offered so the funds were taken. The Fraser port authority is looking for additional funds so it can maintain that very important part of the Fraser River. So up to Langley it is being maintained, but the money has run out. That is an issue that the government needs to deal with.

From Langley up, there is no maintenance of the Fraser River. The silt has built up into the Bedford channel and now commercial fisheries are having a very difficult time. All navigation on that part of the river is very difficult and dangerous. It has caused a change in the flow of the Fraser and now 10 to 15 acres of McMillan Island, which is part of the Kwantlen reserve, have disappeared. It is a very serious situation. Lack of maintenance of the Fraser could be one of the causes for some of the loss.

[Maurice Vellacott, Conservative, Saskatoon—Wanuskewin, SK]

Mr. Speaker, my hon. colleague got cut off because of time and I know he had other wise and valuable insights for the House. I wonder if there are additional insights that he could divulge to us with respect to the end of his speech.

[Mark Warawa, Conservative, Langley, BC]

Mr. Speaker, the government needs to develop a fisheries management framework that would give provinces and territories more input and control over fisheries management in their regions.

There are many problems with attempting to solve this crisis with a DFO review, which this Liberal government suggests is the right approach. If DFO is investigating itself, there is a clear conflict of interest in establishing and controlling a review of what happened.

The membership of the committee being proposed by the Liberal Party, which would be made up of first nations and commercial, recreational and environmental interests, could also be in a position of conflict of interest because they have a direct financial interest in the outcome of that review. How would that committee be capable of getting real answers to the problems?

Bureaucrats do not testify under oath and are less likely to point a finger at themselves or their minister and give honest observations if their jobs are on the line. What guarantee is there that DFO would take a review seriously? It has reviewed this issue year after year but does not implement recommendations.

[John Cummins, Conservative, Delta—Richmond East, BC]

Mr. Speaker, it is a pleasure for me to rise on this issue today. In this year of 2004, close to two million sockeye went missing on the Fraser River somewhere between Mission and the spawning grounds. These are the worst returns in history on this cycle, even worse than the returns after the Hell's Gate slide back in 1914. This a tragedy. There is no question about it.

Here is what it is akin to. If fish were trees it would be akin to clear-cutting one-quarter of the Fraser River basin, because these fish are on a four year cycle. There are thee other cycles to go, but in my view there will not be a fishery on these stocks until probably 2020 at the earliest. Things will not be back to normal before then.

DFO's response to these problems has been to blame factors beyond its control. It suggests that the echo counter at Mission was not functioning properly. It suggests that there may have been problems with counts on the spawning grounds. It suggests that warm water temperatures again may be the problem.

All of these issues were raised back in 1992 and 1994 as a defence when fish went missing. They were addressed by Mr. Fraser and Dr. Pearse in 1992. Both of them looked at the echo counter and found that it was functioning properly. The spawning counts were fine. Temperatures were not a big issue in 1992, but they were somewhat of an issue in 1994. In fact, combined with that there were higher water flows and a higher discharge in the river, which increased problems for the fish. Again, though, former Speaker Fraser said that at most there would be a 15% mortality from these sorts of things.

When the department addressed this issue and listed the problems, the only issues that it did not raise were management issues themselves and the issue of enforcement. I will give an example of why the department should have raised those issues. In 1998, the run size on early Stuart was similar and actually statistically the same as the run size this year, at about 180,000 sockeye. In that year the department shut down the fishery for a little better than three weeks in July and only allowed one day of fishing during that time in order to get a sufficient number of these early Stuart fish on to the spawning grounds.

It was similar as well in 1987. It was a similar number and the fishery shut down. It was shut down purposely so that it would get an adequate number of early Stuart spawners on to the gravel.

This year was entirely different. It was the same run size, but instead of shutting down the fishery DFO allowed fishing every day during the month of July. When I raised this issue with departmental officials in British Columbia, they were at a loss to explain that. They said, “We'll have to get back to you”. I said, “Get back to me? This issue is current”.

What happened in 1987 and what happened in 1988 is current. The people managing the fishery now should be able to explain why they are operating differently than they did in 1987 and 1988. Why was it okay in 1987 and 1988 to shut it down? Why was it okay this year to allow fishing every day?

They could not explain it. The government said that we needed an inquiry, so it appointed Mr. Williams to head an inquiry of stakeholders. That is like asking the accident victims to investigate the accident.

When Mr. Fraser conducted his inquiry, he was a man of great experience: a former Speaker of the House and a former fisheries minister, a man with a long history of studying and responding to fisheries issues in British Columbia.

To support him, he had either five or six people, five Ph.D.s and one lawyer who was a specialist in these matters of environmental law and so on. He had with him five people who were accustomed to conducting investigations and accustomed to looking into these sorts of issues. One gentleman was an echo sounder specialist. Another gentleman was a statistician. They were people whose very training taught them how to investigate and search for answers to these mysteries. It was not a committee of stakeholders.

The commission that the government has put forward is doomed to failure because it simply does not have the resources to do the job that should be done.

As well, we heard from many members of the commercial fishing industry. In fact, I think everyone from the commercial fishing industry who addressed the committee, and members of the sport fishing industry as well, felt that the government appointee in this particular instance, former Justice Williams, had a bias in these issues, not that he is a bad man, but he comes to the table with a bias and they felt that it would be inappropriate for him to conduct this investigation.

If we are going to get to the root of the problem here, we do need an investigation. We need the ability to subpoena witnesses and take testimony under oath. Let me refer back to Speaker Fraser. Speaker Fraser gave testimony again before the committee in Vancouver. In his report, he addressed that very issue and his inability to get to the bottom of the question. He told the committee and, as I have said, wrote in the report that he went as far as he could in his report to answer the questions and address the issues, but he ran into a stone wall because he lacked that ability to bring the people before him who could give the kinds of answers we need.

Let me give an example of how this works. This committee cannot even afford the kind of protection to departmental witnesses that a House of Commons standing committee offers. Our fisheries committee back in 2001 took testimony from a member of the Coast Guard, a gentleman who gave very explicit testimony which did not put the department in good light. He was threatened with disciplinary action by DFO for appearing before a House of Commons standing committee.

In 1996, I was asking questions about the operation of the Department of Fisheries and Oceans. A memo went out from the minister's office to the extent that any DFO official who talked to me, had any information or was requested for information by me had to advise the minister's office within 24 hours of any discussion they had with me.

Why should we expect that now suddenly today there is going to be an open discussion here and we are going to hear the true story?

Mr. Radford, who is the acting regional director of fisheries management, is quoted in the national media this morning. His comments were that there is no real problem here, that there is nothing the matter. He said that investigating wrongdoings is what a judicial inquiry is for. He said that there were no wrongdoings here. He asked what there was to investigate. He said, “But it's not the lowest run on record for this cycle either”. Not the lowest run? Let him come forward with the information. I have the information. I searched it out. It is the lowest run on record.

Then he goes on to say that I say it will be 2020 before the fish are back to normal. He trashes that idea. He says there are all sorts of variables that come into play. Yes, there are, but prudence--and we should be operating this fishery with prudence--suggests that it will be 2020 before the fish return to anywhere near the numbers that we have today. That is three cycles. It is not a long time.

He goes on to assure me that the minister is interested in getting to the bottom of the key issues, and I am sure he is. However, he can demonstrate that quite clearly by recognizing the will and the wish of the people of British Columbia, the fishing industry in British Columbia, including many native organizations, that there be a judicial inquiry into this mess.

[Shawn Murphy, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Fisheries and Oceans]

Mr. Speaker, as the member knows, we just spent three days in Vancouver, having extensive and lengthy hearings on this issue. I can tell the House that the member is very passionate and knowledgeable about the issue.

I believe members are aware that he has written a report on the issue and he obviously put a lot of time, effort and energy into that report. He makes no bones about his view that the cause of the problem is a wall of aboriginal nets, “During an aboriginal fishery, set-nets create an almost impenetrable barrier to fish”.

When I look at the background of the fishery, in 1992 and in 1994 there was a major problem. In 2004 we have what is called a disaster, and I do agree with the hon. member that it certainly was a disaster. Why do we not see any consistency over the years? We had the problem in 1992, we had the problem in 1994 and we had what he referred to as a disaster in 2004, with which I agree. If this aboriginal unauthorized fishery is taking place, why is it not consistent? I do not see that. I am not saying it is or it is not.

The second part of my question is about the Williams report. As we speak, an independent, impartial, public commission is going on with Bryan Williams, and it will report on a timely basis. Why does the hon. member not wait--

[The Deputy Speaker]

The hon. member for Delta—Richmond East.

[John Cummins, Conservative, Delta—Richmond East, BC]

Mr. Speaker, let us deal with the first issue. I referred to a wall of death in my report. If people would like that report, they are certainly welcome to it. It is available on my website. I defend that report to death, so to speak.

What the member is trying to do is to suggest somehow that this is perhaps an aboriginal issue, those for and against. Let me put on the record that Chris Cook, the president of the Native Brotherhood, has expressed his concern about the net fishery in the Fraser Canyon. I went to see the people of the Tsilhqot'in national government about a month and a half ago. They are concerned about it. They say that in those sorts of fast waters they dip net. They should be dip netting in the Fraser Canyon. That is one Indian group looking at another saying that this is what they should be doing.

I presented a petition in the House from the people of Alert Bay. Alert Bay is a native community. They are calling for a judicial inquiry.

Let us talk science as well. I talk about a wall of death because I have looked at those nets in the Fraser Canyon. I have seen it year after year. I have taken videos of it. I showed it to Mr. Fraser when he did his report. I have told anybody who would listen.

One of the scientists, Mr. Farrell, was before our committee, and I asked him about this. He pointed out that when these nets were in the water, the fish scattered. They head out to the deeper and faster water. When the fish are going up the Fraser Canyon, they hug the rock wall because they cannot swim against the current. When a net is put in every back eddy, it forces the fish out into the faster water. They get swept back downstream, have to turn around and work their way back up again. The scientific report says that when the nets go in the water, about 85% of the fish head out for deeper water or go low.

Another report came out on the same issue of these nets because they were untended. One cannot tend a net in the canyon consistently. We heard testimony about the Stikine River. After two hours, if someone picked a set net, that person got x number of fish. If that same net was left for 24 hours, there were x number of fish again. There was no increase for the next 22 hours. Why? Because fish fall out of the net. That is what happens in the Fraser Canyon. They disappear. They hit the bottom and die or they try to come up again and cannot do it. That is what has happened.

This is a matter of science. If that were a public fishery operating there, it would be shut down. There should be no net fishery in the Fraser Canyon. Anyone who has taken the time to go there knows that. The Native Brotherhood, the Tsilhqot'in people and the people of Alert Bay know that. The minister does not know that. Neither does the parliamentary secretary.

If there is unanimous consent, I would be happy to continue.

[The Deputy Speaker]

Is there unanimous consent for the member to continue for another five minutes?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[Robert Thibault, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Health]

Mr. Speaker, the question of how to manage the fishery in that part of the country is very emotional. There are many interests, difficulties and stocks. One would need the judgment of Solomon to come up with a solution that would satisfy everybody. Justice Williams may not be Solomon, but I understand he is very close. He is a very distinguished and learned gentleman who I am sure will do a good job.

The member in his discussion talked about the bias of Justice Williams. I did not understand what he meant. Could he explain what he meant by bias?

[John Cummins, Conservative, Delta—Richmond East, BC]

Mr. Speaker, there are problems in this fishery. For example, I have a friend with whom I wrote the 2004 Fraser River sockeye escapement crisis report, Phil Eidsvik, B.C. Fisheries Survival Coalition. Phil is closely identified with the commercial fishing industry, trying to protect its access to the fisheries resource. He has the ability to be very impartial, I am sure. At the same time, former Justice Williams is identified with native issues. Yes, he may have the ability to be impartial, but the perception is there that somehow he has this bias and it will colour the discussions.

Former Justice Williams is a major contributor, donor and adviser to a group called Eagle, which has initiated legal challenges on native rights to all the Fraser River fish. That is fine. I do not have a problem with that, but it does not make him a good choice as an impartial chair. That is what the B.C. salmon harvesters said in a letter to him dated December 6, when they refused to attend his first meeting. They said that he may be fine, but that they did not view him as impartial and they would not participate because of that.

[Loyola Hearn, Conservative, St. John's South, NL]

Mr. Speaker, we are approaching the Christmas season, and we talk about three wise men coming out of the east. I believe the opposite side is the west, so we have three wise men coming out of the west. We have a fisheries minister, a former fisheries minister and a former provincial fisheries minister. Collectively, they should know about some of the problems in the fishery. I know some of them do, but I will not say which ones.

[R. John Efford, Liberal, Avalon, NL]

Well, you should.

[Loyola Hearn, Conservative, St. John's South, NL]

They are not federal, and I will not go any further than that. I hope that satisfies my colleague from Newfoundland.

During our hearings in British Columbia, most, if not all, of the major stakeholders made presentation to the committee. My colleague can clarify that if I am wrong. At least 90% said two things quite clearly.

First, they had concerns about the minister's committee and the chair simply because they did not think the committee as set up could ever get to the root of the problem.

Second, they were very clear on the fact that there was absolutely no science on which to base decisions. That is amazing in light of what has happened in the past. There seems to be no continuation of the information gathered from public servant to public servant and from regional director to regional director. Nor is there any management.

Would my colleague agree with me when I say that all stakeholders asked for a complete and utter inquiry to get to the depths of this matter so we could correct it once and for all?

[John Cummins, Conservative, Delta—Richmond East, BC]

Mr. Speaker, my friend has hit the nail on the head. The reason we and the stakeholders are asking for an inquiry is because we have been the other routes. We have been the protest route and the court route, and we want an end to it.

The people who are involved in the fishery on the west coast, whether they are commercial or sports fishermen, and the public at large are tired of the strife over it and they want answers. They want clarification. They want to know what is going on. They are tired of the finger pointing. They are tired of reading it in the press. The only way that will happen is to have a judicial inquiry, with the chair being neutral and without any biases and being given the ability to subpoena witnesses and take testimony under oath.

We heard testimony from fisheries officers the other day. When I heard it I thought, and I think anyone reading the public record will think the same thing, that it sounded like everything was okay. However if we were to think about it, in 1994, when there was a problem, there were 33 fisheries officers in the whole of the lower mainland, which meant about six or seven officers on duty for the whole of the lower mainland, up Howe Sound and up the Sunshine Coast a bit.

When Mr. Fraser issued his report, Minister Tobin and others said that they would expand the number of fisheries officers. The number went up to 41 or 42, depending on who was doing the counting. This summer we had 29 fisheries officers, less than we had in 1994.

When I asked officials at the department whether there were helicopter patrols into the Fraser canyon this summer they did not know. I can tell members that there were none. Ordinarily they patrol over 300 hours a year but this year there were none. They do not know what is going on there. They say that they went up the canyon in a boat. What happens to the other areas? They do not get covered. The coverage is not there.

Somebody, once and for all, has to answer these questions. I have been asking questions for 12 years on this stuff and I am getting tired of it. I want answers. The public in British Columbia want answers. The fishing industry, the fishing community and the aboriginal communities want answers. We want them and we want it done once and for all. We want a judicial inquiry.

[Geoff Regan, Liberal, Minister of Fisheries and Oceans]

Mr. Speaker, I want to thank the House for the opportunity to speak to the motion before us today.

As Canada's Minister of Fisheries and Oceans, I take the future of Pacific salmon stocks very seriously. As I told the media last week, it is the number one priority for us on the west coast of Canada, which is why I share the hon. member's concern for the state of wild Pacific salmon.

This resource makes a valuable contribution to the culture and heritage of both British Columbia and our nation, and that has been very clear to me during my visits to British Columbia over the course of the past year. I have been there five times and I have heard about the salmon fishery every time, especially this fall.

The Pacific fishery as a whole makes a key economic contribution too. Commercial fisheries and aquaculture production in British Columbia are valued at nearly $630 million, or close to one-quarter of the national total.

Over the last decade the Pacific Canadian fishery has faced its share of challenges. In working with my department, we have made improvements. Yes, we recognize that there is more to do, without question.

Most west coast fisheries have been completely transformed and are performing well. Salmon is the exception. While there have been some significant changes, the salmon fishery still faces an uncertain future. The challenges include a range of economic and environmental factors, as well as the realities of treaty negotiations. We have worked closely with the fishing industry to rebuild the salmon resource, restructure the fishery and help people and communities adjust. The changes have been significant.

Some stocks have recovered, the fleet has been reduced by 50%, an allocation policy is in place, area and gear licensing has now been implemented, and the Pacific salmon treaty has been renewed.

Despite these costly and sometimes controversial reforms, serious conservation problems remain for some salmon populations. The economic viability of this resource remains tenuous. This has led to inevitable criticism of my department. I am told daily that we do not make salmon a high enough priority on the west coast. As my parliamentary secretary pointed out earlier, this simply is not the case.

Out of an annual budget of $150 million for fisheries management and science, the Pacific region spends $80 million on salmon, the majority of this going to Fraser River salmon.

The department has made a number of concrete improvements over the last five years to DFOs science program, the fisheries management regime and how we consult with stakeholders. Many initiatives are underway that are dedicated exclusively to this important resource.

Let me take a few moments to outline some of these initiatives and how they are helping to build a brighter future for stocks like salmon.

Let us take for example the long awaited wild salmon policy. I will be releasing this policy in the very near future, and, yes, it has been a long time coming. Both the federal and provincial auditors general have expressed this. The commissioner for environment and sustainable development and countless people throughout Pacific Canada, people directly involved in the fishery and ordinary citizens concerned for the future of this key resource, have expressed the same thing.

The fact is that my department has worked hard to respond to the issues they identified. As members can appreciate, the development of the wild salmon policy has been an extremely complex task. The range of consultations involved throughout the province has been with stakeholder groups, the public and first nations. Quite simply, we took the time to get it right.

The wild salmon policy will provide the framework to manage and conserve wild salmon in British Columbia and Yukon. It lays out new and transparent processes for decision making and long term planning, and establishes strategies to track the abundance of salmon stocks and plan accordingly.

The wild salmon policy also calls for collaboration among all stakeholders. I realize what a challenge that is. The conflict and the competition of the past needs to give way to cooperation. That is the only way forward. Cooperation is essential. We need public input and the cooperation of stakeholders and all levels of government. I appreciate the comments of colleagues who have expressed concern about the need to work with provincial governments on these things.

We had a national meeting of fisheries ministers in Whitehorse in September this year. My provincial and territorial colleagues expressed their pleasure and some satisfaction at the fact that they had seen improvement over the past year. They were really pleased with what they were seeing in terms of increased cooperation. I give a lot of credit for that to senior officials at the department and my predecessor, the member for West Nova, who did a good job of launching that process ahead of me.

The wild salmon policy will support various related initiatives, like the implementation of the Species at Risk Act, marine habitat protection, and our efforts to seek certification from the Marine Stewardship Council for commercial salmon products.

By bringing together the various threads of salmon management, I am confident that the policy will be a useful road map for working with our partners to conserve and benefit from this vital resource in the years to come.

The Pearse-McRae report and the complementary first nations panel report are two more examples of how the department is working to change the fishery on this coast.

The recommendations stemming from each report are now being considered by first nations and other stakeholders. Both reports point out the need to ensure access to a sustainable and profitable fisheries resource for all.

An implementation strategy will be in place for these recommendations in the very near future.

On a complementary track, I recently announced an independent post-season review for salmon in southern British Columbia, chaired by the former British Columbia chief justice, Mr. Bryan Williams. This includes representatives from the commercial sector, recreational fishing, the first nations and environmental interests.

Under Mr. Williams' leadership, we have the newly formed integrated salmon harvest planning committee. Members will recall that was one of the recommendations of an inquiry that was held two years ago. I think members across the way ought to note that because they have not so far. However that committee will review last season and provide recommendations on how to improve conservation and fisheries management practices in the years to come. Those are very important objectives.

I have asked that the 2004 salmon fishery be impartially and objectively reviewed alongside the fishing plan. The review will focus in particular on the factors that led to the smaller salmon run and will therefore serve as a guide in preparing fishing plans for 2005 and onward.

I have asked the committee to focus on six critical issues: the consultation process, conservation objectives, risk management, relevance of data, the decision-making process and the department's fisheries management process.

I am especially glad that Mr. Williams is lending his considerable abilities to the task. He has a proven track record as a skilled negotiator, with vast experience in all forms of alternate dispute resolution, including mediation and arbitration. He has extensive involvement in a variety of boards and committees involving very diverse points of view. It is very clear that these skills will certainly be needed in this kind of an endeavour.

The number of diverse interests wanting access to this resource or a voice in its management is staggering. An independent and impartial chair is needed to ensure that all points of view are considered and factored into the final recommendations.

Similarly, his colleagues on the committee were all chosen for their expertise in the areas of science, ecology or traditional knowledge. Every stakeholder group in B.C.'s fishery is represented. Each member on the panel was chosen by his or her respective stakeholder group. That is a very important point that members opposite ought to take note of.

I look forward to receiving the committee's advice sooner rather than later. One of the reasons it is important to have this particular structure is that we need the committee's advice in time to plan for the 2005 season. I have given it until the end of March to provide its recommendations. I am confident that it will provide my department with the advice that we need to manage our salmon resources in the years to come.

I want to add that I am encouraging DFO employees, in fact urging them to speak their minds about what is working and what is not about this fishery. This is essential if we are to get all the facts on the table.

When we talk about consulting stakeholders and experts, clearly we need to talk about DFO employees too. These dedicated men and women work every day to manage stocks like salmon for the benefit of all Canadians. I value their opinion highly and I want them to make their voices heard through the various consultation processes in place.

As the parliamentary secretary said earlier, I especially want to renew fisheries in Canada in a comprehensive way. We are heading for a fisheries renewal process, that is, we are looking at a new approach to fisheries management. The instrument serving as our base, the Fisheries Act, is 136 years old and must be modernized.

We want to move beyond funding and access arguments so that we can focus on issues such as harvests, economic sustainability, sustainability of the resource, and consolidating a relatively stable and predictable industry.

Of course, the majority of the work done on the west coast will direct this process and serve as a guide as progress is made.

The implications of the Species at Risk Act also need to be examined. We need to ensure that the requirements for listed species are met while maintaining strong, sustainable fisheries.

In October the hon. Minister of the Environment and I recommended that Cultus Lake and Sakinaw Lake sockeye salmon should not be listed under the Species at Risk Act. It was not a recommendation we took lightly.

A species at risk listing would have spelled more than $125 million in lost revenue to the sockeye fishery by 2008 and would have virtually shut down the commercial sockeye fishery in southern British Columbia. This would hit coastal communities like Nanaimo especially hard.

The Department of Fisheries and Oceans has invested nearly a million dollars to protect these populations and will continue to establish strong conservation measures under the Fisheries Act.

However, this does not mean that other species will not be listed in the future. We need to continue working closely with industry groups, other levels of government, and first nations to adapt to this new reality and to examine the implications of a species being listed.

Moving forward on the oceans action plan is another important goal. Using tools like integrated management, ecosystem and precautionary approaches, the plan will ensure that Canada continues to play a leadership role on the world stage. As we develop our ocean resources in an integrated and sustainable way, we promote the health of our oceans and advance ocean science and technology.

We are standing at the edge of a new approach in managing Pacific fishery resources with more cooperation and more coordination than ever before. That certainly does not mean that we do not have a lot of work in front of us. It does mean that we are identifying the challenges and taking action to face them.

I take the west coast fishery very seriously as does my department. I am confident that by moving forward the initiatives I have mentioned today and working with people throughout the industry, we can address a range of fisheries issues in British Columbia and indeed throughout the country.

[Loyola Hearn, Conservative, St. John's South, NL]

Mr. Speaker, the minister talked about consultation and how important it was to talk to the stakeholders. A couple of weeks ago the minister went to the United Nations to sponsor, along with other countries, on Canada's behalf a resolution about destructive gear types. There had been absolutely and positively no consultation with the stakeholders. They were as surprised to find out about it as the minister's own staff.

In this case the minister has set up a controversial committee with a controversial chair. I wonder, in doing so, how much consultation took place with the stakeholders involved in the British Columbia fishery.

[Geoff Regan, Liberal, Halifax West, NS]

Mr. Speaker, when my hon. colleague talks about the UN resolution, this is the same member who said a couple of weeks ago that countries like Norway and Spain would not support that kind of a resolution. The fact of the matter is that there were 140 countries that did support the motion. Only one abstained.

Spain did support the motion contrary to what my hon. colleague expected and believed. Portugal and Japan supported it. It was a resolution that we had some concerns about as was expressed in my speech to the UN. I wanted to point out our policy. I made it very clear what our policy was about the bottom trolling.

I said that there was no particular kind of gear that could be described solely as destructive. All gear types can be destructive if used improperly and that is the question. Our interest in that resolution, and the primary meaning of that resolution, was all about irresponsible fishing practices. Canada would want an end to irresponsible fishing practices. I am sure my hon. colleague would want to be part of ending those kinds of practices. I know that he supports the efforts of our government to do that.

He knows that there are ongoing consultations on a variety of issues. I appreciate his concern about this issue. He understands how these processes work at the UN. There are countries that are involved in negotiations. In fact, we objected to that clause as it went forward. It turned out we could not change it. I think it is important to look at the whole resolution. The resolution itself was about irresponsible fishing.

Otherwise, if it had the kind of effect my hon. colleague says it had, we would never have had countries like Portugal, Spain, Norway and Japan, for example, supporting it the way they did. My hon. colleague needs to know the facts on issues like this.

[John Cummins, Conservative, Delta—Richmond East, BC]

Mr. Speaker, it was a nice speech that the minister read and just spent the last two or three minutes talking about an issue which is irrelevant to the discussion today. It goes to show just how much he knows about the issue at hand.

He suggested this review, that he has put in place, has been welcomed by the industry, but the integrated harvest planning committee was not happy, at least all members were not happy. As suggested earlier, the commercial salmon advisory board wrote Mr. Williams about this very fact. It was very upset that it was not consulted by the minister or the department regarding its view on how the review should be conducted prior to the minister making his announcement in assigning the integrated harvest planning committee the task. In addition the members of the board said that the minister's appointment and draft terms of reference were presented to the committee at the end of the inaugural meeting in which the committee was discussing its own structure, process, procedures and terms of reference. They are not happy with the way this has been handled. It is not what they signed on for.

This review is going to take a long time. It cannot be rushed. These folks signed on for a few days of meetings, maybe two or three times a year, not to get into the kind of in-depth review that is required.

Why did the minister not broadly consult before he embarked on this review? Why were fewer fisheries officers on the job this summer than there were in 1994?

[Geoff Regan, Liberal, Halifax West, NS]

Mr. Speaker, my hon. colleague is talking about a group that does not support or has not applauded this particular committee. He should consider the comments, in terms of the chair of this committee, from a number of other groups that he seems to want to ignore.

I have a letter from the Sport Fishing Institute of British Columbia, supporting the appointment of Bryan Williams as the independent chairperson to lead the integrated salmon harvest planning committee's 2004 salmon post-season review. It states that Mr. Williams' long experience as a barrister in British Columbia makes him well suited to the task of finding answers to many questions that surround management of the 2004 Fraser sockeye fishery.

Then there is a media release from the Sierra Club of Canada, an environmental organization that is very well known. Vicky Husband, conservation chair of Sierra Club of Canada, stated:

Sierra Club of Canada, B.C. Chapter is applauding Fisheries and Oceans Canada’s appointment of former B.C. Chief Justice Bryan Williams as Chair of the 2004 salmon post-season review...We believe that Mr. Williams has the skills to work with the representatives of the Integrated Harvest Planning Committee to recommend meaningful changes in the future management of southern B.C.’s salmon fisheries.

We have the B.C. Aboriginal Fisheries Commission which put out a news release. The leader of the B.C. Aboriginal Fisheries Commission, Arnie Narcisse, says that his organization welcomes the appointment of former justice Bryan Williams, Q.C., to lead the forthcoming investigation into fisheries management practices on B.C.'s south coast and the probable causes for the major shortfall in spawning populations of Fraser River sockeye in the summer of 2004. “In my opinion”, he says, “Bryan Williams brings the breadth of experience and necessary impartiality British Columbians expect in someone charged with the task of getting to the bottom of fisheries management practices”.

Let us consider Mr. Williams' credentials. We know that he is a former chief justice of the Supreme Court of British Columbia. I know my colleagues do not have much appreciation for courts and judges. We know their views on the charter of rights, for example, and things like that. The fact is that this is a very distinguished, retired jurist. Not only does his experience extend to the courts, he has also been national president of the Canadian Bar Association. He has been the founding president of the Law for the Future Fund, a governor of The Law Foundation of British Columbia, chair of the Legal Services Society of British Columbia, a commissioner of the British Columbia Law Reform Commission, and former board member of the Canadian Institute for Administration of Justice. He has been a governor of The Canadian Unity Council, a member of the steering committee of the Pacific Salmon Endowment Fund, director of the World Wildlife Fund Canada, and director of the British Columbia Public Interest Advocacy Centre.

I think those credentials, and there are many more, speak for themselves. The fact is that this committee, as I said before, is in response to one of the recommendations of the panel of an inquiry that was held in the summer of 2002. I have heard colleagues often say we have not responded to those recommendations. Here is an example of where we have, and they fail to recognize it. The integrated harvest planning committee is a response to one of those recommendations. It is an important group.

[Raynald Blais, Bloc, Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I will ask a quick question since there is not much time left.

With respect to the Fraser River salmon fishery, there has been a decrease in human resources at Fisheries and Oceans Canada over the past few years. How can there be a decrease in human resources to enforce regulations? Is that the reason behind the problems there? Why does the minister not act immediately to bring back the human resources on site in order to improve regulation application?

[Geoff Regan, Liberal, Halifax West, NS]

Mr. Speaker, I thank the hon. member for his question. The issue of human resources in our department is one that I am certainly concerned about. My hon. colleague knows that my department is in the process of looking at all its resources and expenses.

If we determine that we need to improve resources in certain areas, we will find the means to do so. I appreciate his comments very much because I too am concerned about this need to have the necessary resources for the work my department does across Canada.

[Bob Mills, Conservative, Red Deer, AB]

Mr. Speaker, it is my pleasure to share my time with the member for Newton—North Delta.

I first would like to focus on the environmental aspects of the issues. Our fish and salmon stocks are a major part of our environment, and environmental issues go right to the heart of economy, the well-being and the vision of our country.

When it comes our environmental position in the world today, we can look at some of the reports see what the rest of the world is saying about us. The OECD rated 24 countries and rated us last. We could look at the Fraser Institute and the environmental issues that it has raised. The Conference Board of Canada rates us in the bottom quarter. The Environmental Commissioner has found many flaws in our environmental policy. She basically says that we are great talkers, but we do not do very much. This example today is the perfect one. Canadians have been totally misled Canadians about our great environmental conscience. We have failed in preserving another fish stock, for which should take responsibility.

On the ground, we have brownfields or contaminated sites in most all of our areas. Three cities are dumping raw sewage into the ocean. We have boil water warnings in over 300 of our locations in Canada. We have smog days in Toronto, Ottawa, Calgary and Vancouver. We have leaky landfills. In Ottawa we have a $45 million lawsuit for a leaking landfill into adjacent property. That is starting to happen right across the country.

We are not the pristine wonderful environmental place that we like to think we are. We like to hide behind international agreements and say how wonderful that we signed them. Yet we have done nothing to live up to those kind of commitments.

Now we have DFO. The Department of Fisheries in my area and in parts of Alberta have a rather different connotation than they do in Atlantic or in B.C. To us, DFO represents a group of people who come out in flak jackets and guns on their hips. They say that because there are minnows in little ditch, we had better spend $200,000 or $400,000 to ensure they are protected. Lord knows, they might be part of our fisheries in the future.

In my constituency a bridge could not be used because it put shadows on the river and the fish might not swim through the shadow, even though it did not touch the bank.

DFO people burst into a provincial government office, guns in hand and flak jackets on, because they were collecting information. DFO does not have a very good reputation in many parts of the prairies, and now in British Columbia. What is it doing with a very important resource, the salmon fish stocks in British Columbia? I am afraid it is not a lot different. While the flak jackets and guns may not work in B.C., the mismanagement of the fish, particularly of salmon, certainly fits.

I have to go on the reports of the Environment Commissioner. In 1997 she identified the very fact that the salmon stocks were in crisis. She said that the science had to be put in place and that action needed to be taken immediately. That would be the only thing that would save these fish stocks. She again identified that same problem in 1999 and again in 2000. Again she said that action had to be taken and that the science was needed. The situation needed to be studied to determine what was happening. We needed to have our ducks in a row, if we wanted to save the fish stocks.

Lo and behold, a wild salmon policy was put in place in 2000, but never implemented. That is again a lot of talk, a lot of posturing and a lot of “we care about the environment”, but no action.

Will we have to wait until there are no more salmon and then look back in a historical sense and say that if we would have had the science, if we would have done the studies, if we would have listened to the public, we could have saved the fish stock. That is not a very good record or process in terms of saving eco-systems.

I have to look again on page 4, in chapter 5. I have a lot respect for our Environment Commissioner. She is dedicated to the Canadian environment and what we should do for it. She said that in the past seven years her office conducted three audits on the management of Pacific salmon. In 1997 she reported that Pacific salmon stocks and habitat were under stress. Canada's ability to sustain Pacific salmon at the existing level and diversity was questionable, given the various factors influencing salmon survival, many of which were beyond its control, while Fisheries and Oceans Canada helped build up major salmon stocks, other stocks were declining. She said that habitat loss may have contributed and she went on to explain that.

In 1999 she reported that the Pacific salmon fishery was in serious trouble. Long term sustainability due to overfishing, habitat loss and many other factors were the reasons why this is not a sustainable fishery.

Then in 2000 she reported again that nothing had changed, that the Department of Fisheries had not reacted to these reports or to what the people were telling them on the ground, which implies that there is an awful lot of incompetence, unwillingness, laziness and sheer stupidity in terms of how the fish stock is being handled. When people care about the environment, when they have been involved in environmental movements for the last 30 some years, they get pretty upset when they read those kinds of damning statements by a government official.

She concludes that DFO has failed miserably in its actions in this whole area. I am sure if I knew more about the cod industry and Atlantic Canadian fish stocks, we might say the same. Maybe that is why we do not have a cod industry. I am sure there were local people crying out back then saying that the stock and habitat were in trouble. There are all kinds of reasons why and the government needs to manage it. Obviously, that is what we are pleading for today. We are asking that the government take notice of these reports and the situation and immediately do something about it.

Above all, the fisheries critic, the natural resources critic and certainly myself as environment critic want to emphasize that need to get the science in place. We need to understand the science of these fish stocks. I do not believe this is a massive study. I believe a lot of work has been done, but somebody needs to take notice of that science, put it together and look at such things as climate change and all the other things that have an impact. Then we need to have a management strategy. We need to be sure that it is managed efficiently, effectively and equally so everyone is treated equally in the fishery.

Above all, what I have learned in the entire environmental area, is that consultation is probably the number one heart of this. The former environment minister, for instance, would think of public consultation as having a select list of usually Liberals who live in a certain area come and consult with the public. It is not about that. It is about talking to the stakeholders, the environmental groups, the professors, the fishermen and the people who work on the ground. Those are the people who need to be consulted. When they are, we will get the answers as to what is wrong and what should be done immediately.

We ask for a full investigation. That is the least the government can do in an make an attempt at this eleventh hour to try to save this fish stock.

[Loyola Hearn, Conservative, St. John's South, NL]

Mr. Speaker, the member who just spoke has, and has had for quite some time, a great interest in the environment. This is not an issue of stakeholders blaming each other. That is what the government would like to pretend is happening. Nobody has said anything about who is at fault here, except for government, because its members are the ones at fault.

All the stakeholders have a part to play in what happens in the fishery, the same as in the east coast, whether it be foreign overfishing, overfishing ourselves, illegal gear or types of gear and I could go on and on. The environment plays an important role in our stocks. However, to what extent and to what degree our stocks will be decimated by the varying factors will be unknown unless we have proper science and a set of management individuals who can use that for the benefit of the resource.

From my learned colleagues' knowledge of this issue, does he think the department is making its decisions based upon the knowledge of what is really happening?

[Bob Mills, Conservative, Red Deer, AB]

Mr. Speaker, obviously the understanding of ecosystems is a definite science. It is something that biologists have spent years and years developing. We can put all the factors together, look at what the problems are and we can easily come up with what the solutions would be.

Instead of playing the political game, the name blaming game, as the member suggests, if we were to understand that science, in that science would be the solutions. I am certain those solutions could be put forward and I am certain as well that the local people know what it is without ever having taken a single biology course or a single course in ecological understanding.

The bottom line is, base it on science, talk to the people, get the professionals who are there and have them put forward the recommendation. I think what we will find when we do this is that DFO is to blame for not putting things together. In fact, it has played a bit of a shell game and in the process of this shell game, we have lost the salmon fishery of the Pacific coast.