Debates of Oct. 3rd, 2005

The House resumed from June 3 consideration of the motion that Bill C-363, an act to amend the Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation Act (profits distributed to provinces), be read the second time and referred to a committee.

Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation Act

[The Deputy Speaker]

On June 3, 2005, at the commencement of debate on second reading of Bill C-363, an act to amend the Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation Act (profits distributed to provinces), a point of order was raised by the Parliamentary Secretary to the Government House Leader concerning the need for this bill to be accompanied by a royal recommendation. A submission on this matter was also made by the sponsor of the bill, the hon. member for Beauport—Limoilou. The Chair thanks both members for having raised this matter at an early opportunity.

Bill C-363 proposes that the Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation distribute any surplus from its reserve fund to the provinces for social housing purposes, for the supply of quality housing at affordable prices, and for an increase in housing choices for the people in the provinces.

The parliamentary secretary argues that the transfer of such monies to the provinces constitutes new spending for a new purpose and ought to be accompanied by a royal recommendation.

The Chair has carefully reviewed this matter, especially the details pertaining to the operation of the CMHC reserve fund. Currently, section 29 of the Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation Act prescribes how profits made by CMHC are credited to the CMHC reserve fund, and how amounts in that fund exceeding limitations established by the Governor-in-Council are then transferred to the Consolidated Revenue Fund.

The reserve fund of the Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation has a unique character. Subsection 29(2) of the act explains that the board of CMHC places its profits in this fund to cover costs related to its operations:

--the profits of the Corporation in each fiscal year remaining after such provision...as the Board thinks proper for bad and doubtful debts, depreciation in assets, anticipated future losses and all other matters whatever that in the opinion of the Board should be provided for in carrying out the purposes of the Corporation shall be credited to the reserve fund....

In other words, the reserve fund is an operational account that CMHC uses to conduct its corporate business. Until amounts from the reserve fund are actually transferred to the Consolidated Revenue Fund each year, they are not available to the Crown for general appropriations.

Although the parliamentary secretary acknowledged that the reserve fund is not part of the Consolidated Revenue Fund, he did argue that because monies from the reserve fund are integrated into the Consolidated Revenue Fund on an annual basis they may be considered to form part of the general revenues under the control of the Crown.

The Chair has some difficulty with that statement.

The narrow question which the Chair must decide is whether the financial initiative of the Crown is being infringed through the provisions of Bill C-363, that is, whether the bill seeks an authorization for appropriations to be made out of the consolidated revenue fund without being first recommended by the Crown.

The Chair is not convinced that this is the case. Bill C-363 proposes that monies within the control of CMHC—not the Crown—be dedicated for a particular purpose. A royal recommendation is required when a bill seeks an authorization to withdraw monies from the Consolidated Revenue Fund. Is Bill C-363 seeking to withdraw monies from the Consolidated Revenue Fund? I would conclude that it is not. Bill C-363 is preventing CMHC monies from being placed in the Consolidated Revenue Fund by having them used for another purpose. The transfer of monies from the CMHC reserve fund to the Consolidated Revenue Fund—or in this case to the provinces—is not a matter relating to the appropriation of monies from the Crown. Therefore, Bill C-363 does not infringe on the financial initiative of the Crown.

The parliamentary secretary also cited a May 9, 2005 ruling, which among other things addressed the objects, purposes, conditions and qualifications of the royal recommendation. He argued that Bill C-363 is adding a new purpose which was not contemplated in the original legislation establishing CMHC and would therefore need a new royal recommendation. Again I wish to stress that the original royal recommendation strictly applied to matters concerning the objects, purposes, conditions and qualifications of an appropriation of monies within the control of the Crown; that is not the case with Bill C-363. As Bill C-363 does not appropriate from the Consolidated Revenue Fund, it cannot be considered as altering the purpose of the original royal recommendation.

Therefore, in its present form, this bill can proceed through the normal stages in the legislative process without the need of a royal recommendation.

The Chair once again thanks the Parliamentary Secretary to the Government House Leader and the hon. member for Beauport—Limoilou for having raised this matter at an early opportunity. By doing so, they have provided the entire House with the clarity it needs to take an informed decision on this piece of legislation.

[Réal Ménard, Bloc, Hochelaga, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I am convinced that all parliamentarians in this House will want to join me in saluting the relevance of your ruling, which allows us to fulfill our role. Of course, the hon. member for Beauport—Limoilou deserves a lot of credit for putting this housing issue on the agenda of the House. This issue is of primary importance, nearly as important as life itself. Indeed, we cannot give meaning to our lives, be involved in our community and perform our civic duties if we do not have a roof over our heads.

I am very grateful to the hon. member for Beauport—Limoilou for tabling a bill founded on common sense. Can we imagine being in the shoes of those who established the Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation after the second world war? They wanted to ensure that there would be affordable housing, first for post-war citizens, but also, and more importantly, for those who had pressing housing needs.

The Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation behaved like a bank, like a financial institution interested in accumulating surpluses. It has tried to hoard money and it has not done all it could to improve the housing situation.

As the MP for Hochelaga, I am extremely pleased to take part in this debate today. I am doing so thinking of the housing organizations in my riding, particularly Entraide logement and the BAIL committee with Mr. Laporte, who is now working under contract with FRAPRU for a few months. In Hochelaga, we are well aware of how effective housing is as a tool to combat poverty.

The hon. member for Beauport—Limoilou is proposing that the Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation set aside the equivalent of 5% of its portfolio of loans and maintain a reserve fund of up to $100 million for contingencies, and so on. That sounds like a common sense approach to me. The Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation is not a financial institution. It is not there to accumulate surpluses. Who would have ever thought that the CMHC would have $4.2 billion in accumulated surpluses? If nothing is done, if we do not act on the bill introduced by the member for Beauport—Limoilou, we could see surpluses as high as $8.3 billion. That makes no sense.

How these surpluses came to be is in itself worrisome: overestimated borrowing costs, excessive rates charged to citizens for loan guarantees and, of course, the fact that the cost of managing social housing programs has been lower because interest rates were lower. This is, therefore, an extremely important bill. This bill calls for the Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation, subject to the two conditions stated, namely setting aside 5% of its portfolio of loans and maintaining a reserve fund of up to $100 million for contingencies, to give a rebate, to distribute the rest of its surpluses to the provinces, which have primary responsibility, with the municipalities, for social housing. I understand that my hon. colleague's bill provides for this refund, this redistribution to be in proportion of the provinces' population.

That is absolutely unacceptable. We must not think that the housing crisis has subsided in our various communities. I was rereading the policy statement sent to us by my friend Cosmo Maciocia, who is responsible for social housing on the City of Montreal executive committee. I do not want to make any partisan remarks since Montreal is in the middle of a municipal election. However, I will point out that the Tremblay administration launched an operation called Solidarity 5000 Homes, in Montreal. This is not insignificant. Close to 4,800 housing units have already been delivered or will be delivered soon.

Obviously, we must not think that this operation, Solidarity 5000 Homes, which is worth mentioning, has solved all the housing problems in Montreal. It is true though that the situation has improved compared to what it was three years ago. Indeed, vacancy rates were lower then than anyone could imagine. But the needs are still there and they are significant.

I will talk about Hochelaga—Maisonneuve. In my part of town, thanks to Solidarity 5000 Homes, 170 housing units were built and 138 are yet to come. I will take this opportunity to thank Mrs. Édith Cyr, from my community's technical resource group or GRT, who has done an excellent job on this. As we know, it is the GRTs that deliver the housing units, help organizations with the planning and sign the contracts. GRTs play an important role between the time when the need is identified and the time when construction begins on a housing unit. If further proof is required that the need for social housing is still huge, here it is: in Hochelaga—Maisonneuve alone, it is estimated that an additional 455 units could be built if the funds were available, but they are not. There is not one cent left in Operation Solidarity 5000 Homes; all the funds have been allocated.

I want to give some examples of the needs in Hochelaga—Maisonneuve. The Chaussures Pitt property is on Nicolet street. Everyone has heard of this shoe store: it is part of the consortium owned by Yellow. This building will be retired. With funding, 35 housing units could be built on that site. The Résidence Maisonneuve could be converted into 10 housing units. The property on Bennett street behind the Propulsion agency could provide another 35 units. And 200 housing units could be built beside Saint-Clément park. The former Viau cookie factory that supplied us for years with Whippet cookies, which, Mr. Speaker, you have probably tried, is now available. Condo apartments could be built there, but since there is also a housing construction program, 200 units of social housing could also be built. The former École des métiers de l'Est, on Darling street next to the Hochelaga school, could also be converted into 71 housing units. I will not get into details as to whether it should be affordable housing or come under the Accès Logis program. This decision should be made by the developers in cooperation with the various municipalities. The message we are trying to send this morning is that there is a enormous need for housing.

Who can believe that, in a country as wealthy as Canada and Quebec, 150,000 people do not have a permanent place to call home? In Quebec alone, 393,000 households have been identified as being in dire need of housing. When over 30% of personal income is spent on housing, there is a problem. Imagine what happens when it is 50%. Yet, over 100,000 households spend more than 80% of their income on housing.

This is an extremely relevant bill that has been lauded and awaited by housing advocacy organizations. If I had time, I would no doubt talk about the SCPI program. But I do not. However, we do need to send a clear message that we, as parliamentarians who want to fight poverty, need to vote in favour of this bill, which would make funds available to communities so they could provide social housing to those who desperately need it.

[Judi Longfield, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Labour and Housing]

Mr. Speaker, I would like to add my voice to those of my colleagues who will be speaking against the proposed Bill C-363, a bill that would amend section 29 of the CMHC Act to require Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation to distribute surpluses from its reserve fund to the provinces.

Housing means more to Canadians than just four walls and a roof over their heads. It is one of the key building blocks around which most of us build our lives, like access to education, good health care and employment. Having a safe and affordable home is a cornerstone that enables us to go out into the world and to prosper in our jobs, support and care for our families, and build the vibrant communities and strong economy upon which this great nation is based.

It is important to recognize, however, that housing needs of Canadians are as diverse as the faces of Canada itself: youth, new Canadians, single mothers, women escaping violence, young families, seniors, persons with disabilities, aboriginal peoples and individuals living in northern and remote communities. With all of these groups there is a wide range of needs.

Our government's approach is to view housing as a continuum. Through our national homelessness initiatives, communities are given the opportunity to build on their successes and focus on interventions to help prevent and break the cycle of homelessness. Through the Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation, we seek to address a wide range of needs, from emergency shelter and assisted housing to access to market housing and independent, reliable information on the latest market trends and advances in housing technology.

Because of this need for diversity, we work with a wide range of partners. Playing a leadership role, CMHC collaborates with all levels of government, as well as with the private and non-profit sectors and community organizations, to develop workable solutions that speak to the needs of Canadians both today and tomorrow. Our vision of housing in Canada is broad and it is constantly evolving.

What does this mean for the young Canadian family looking to buy their first home or for the single mother hoping to get assisted housing with her children so she can go back to school for more training? What does it mean for the older couple living on a fixed income who need to make adaptations so that they can live in their homes independently? It means many things, but for starters it means an expanding range of mortgage insurance products that help make home ownership more affordable for Canadians. CMHC has a long history of innovation in mortgage loan insurance and in securitization that translates into products and services designed to meet the ever changing needs and lifestyles of Canadians across the country, as well as keeping financing for home ownership and rental development accessible and affordable.

In April of this year, CMHC introduced an impressive package of mortgage loan enhancements and benefits that continue to make it easier for homebuyers to take their first step into the market. This includes a further 15% reduction in mortgage loan insurance premiums for homebuyers with as little as 5% down. This is CMHC's second premium reduction for home owners in two years.

For that young family I mentioned a moment ago, these changes result in significant changes that may allow them to enter the housing market earlier and at interest rates comparable to those financing their homes with a down payment of 25% or more. This will help to get them started sooner on the path to financial security and to direct their resources toward other things, such as saving for their children's college or university educations.

As first time homebuyers assuming $125,000 CMHC-insured mortgage with a 5% down payment, a family will save $600 on the purchase of their new home thanks to the 2005 April announcements. If we were to combine the saving with the premium reduction CMHC announced two years ago, they stand to save a total of $1,200 on the purchase of their home.

The improvements do not stop there. CMHC also eliminated its mortgage insurance premiums on rental projects under both phases of the affordable housing initiative and other projects with rents that are low enough to meet the needs of households who qualify for social housing. This will result in significant savings to sponsor groups.

Housing sponsors, in addition to saving in the order of $300,000 on a $5 million loan with a value of 95%, will also be able to continue to benefit from the access of financing which mortgage insurance assures and corresponding lower interest rates.

Premium reductions of an additional 20% were also announced in April for affordable housing rental projects that met the criteria for CMHC's partnership flexibilities. On a project with a $5 million loan and on a loan to value ratio of 95%, this could amount to a savings of almost $100,000. These are substantial savings which sponsors can reinvest in quality housing projects or to use to make more units of assisted housing available.

These changes are in addition to the $1.8 billion our government is currently directly investing in housing projects for the benefit of all Canadians. In addition to the $1 billion for the federal affordable housing initiative, $405 million has been added to the supporting communities partnership initiative, or SCPI, and $384 million has extended the residential rehabilitation assistance program, RRAP.

Approximately $2 billion a year is spent on housing assistance, primarily in support of some 633,000 lower income households.

I am happy to say that for the single mother I described a few minutes ago, finding good quality assisted housing where she can afford to live safely with her children is more accessible, in part, through these programs. They can help her get on her feet and help her with her dream of picking up her education so she can work in a job she finds more fulfilling and to provide greater flexibility and security for her family.

We are also making excellent progress in moving the affordable housing initiative forward. Agreements have been signed with all jurisdictions for the first phase of the initiative, and eight provinces have now signed affordable housing agreements with the federal government.

What about those older low income couples who need to put new roofs on their houses? CMHC is making a difference for them as well. The funds available through the residential rehabilitation assistance program will help some of them, not all of them, with the costs of these repairs.

Because the housing challenges on reserves are unlike those faced by any other segment of our population, the government is also committed to improving on reserve housing conditions for aboriginal people by investing $295 million over a period of five years, of which $200 million will be invested in the first two years. The funding will help to build 6,400 new housing units and renovate 1,500 existing units.

The additional investment of $1.6 billion announced to assist Canadians, including aboriginal Canadians, in finding a safe and affordable place to call home will allow us to further address the housing gap faced by aboriginal Canadians. This will help us to begin the true transformative change that is required to help build a solid platform for longer term sustainable solutions from the Canada-Aboriginal Peoples Roundtable.

The federal government has a responsibility to help meet the housing needs of all Canadians.

Bill C-363 zeros in on only one part of the housing continuum, assisted social housing. It overlooks the real need to make housing more available and affordable for Canadians of all income levels, including those with special needs and those who need special housing.

In addition, the bill chooses only one delivery method, that of the provinces. In reality, it takes many partners to meet the diverse housing needs of Canadians. As I mentioned earlier, CMHC works in close partnership with a wide variety of industry, non-profit and community organizations to make a choice of innovative, affordable housing solutions available to all Canadians.

In fact, we have recently held a series of national consultations to gain a better understanding of the housing affordability challenges facing Canadians. These consultations will guide us in the development of a partnership based Canada housing framework that builds on the successes of our existing programs and introduces new initiatives.

Once in place, the framework will serve as a guiding plan for all new federal investments in housing, one that recognizes the housing needs of all Canadians, and which is based on the collaborations and successes we already have achieved. Most important, it will seek to build on and foster partnerships with all levels of government.

While the interest of the member opposite in housing is commendable, I would have felt a little happier if he had felt the necessity to support Bill C-48, which added $1.6 billion into the housing economy.

[Ed Komarnicki, Conservative, Souris—Moose Mountain, SK]

Mr. Speaker, I too will speak to C-363. There is no question that the objective of the bill is laudable in the sense of social housing, providing quality homes and improving the quality of life.

However, the manner in which it proposes to do it is somewhat problematic when one looks at the composition of the Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation. Essentially there are two functions to that corporation. One is the insurance and securitization part of CMHC. In that respect it is meant to be a commercial enterprise that competes in the private market with others, like Genworth Financial Canada, that provide mortgage insurance or financial institutions that provide loans.

The other aspect of CMHC relates to assisted housing or social objectives, research and information and international activities.

CMHC's business activities, which are financed from insurance premiums and fees, require it to be competitive in the marketplace. The bill looks at having those fees moved over to social housing.

The other aspect of CMHC, which deals with social housing initiatives like assisted housing, housing repair and improvement, aboriginal capacity programs, Canadian housing market research, emergency planning and so on, is funded by parliamentary appropriations, and rightly so.

Any of those initiatives that CMHC wishes to proceed with would need to go to the Prime Minister, the cabinet and ultimately Parliament for approval. We saw that happen for instance in Bill C-48, although it was ill-conceived and under perhaps trying circumstances. Nonetheless it was a type of bill that dealt with a parliamentary appropriation for a specific purpose and it was debated by the House and all parliamentarians had an opportunity to vote on it.

This bill proposes to have that happen automatically, have it happen without any consultation in Parliament and have it move as the funds develop. When we look at the bill, it indicates that when the ratio of 0.5% of housing loans are attained in terms of profits, they would automatically move to the CMHC reserve fund. At that point, if the reserve fund reached 10% of the equity of the corporation, the funds would automatically get disbursed to the provinces. Although the concept in itself may have some merit in that it is a per capita distribution to provinces, it all together bypasses parliamentary intervention.

The clause as it now reads intends to amend section 29 that establishes a reserve fund. It states that moneys get placed to a reserve fund after taking into account a series of events like bad debts, depreciation and anticipated future losses. We find that some of those are calculable, but the anticipated future losses are dependent in a large part on the economy, on the interest rates and on a whole series of factors. To arbitrarily fix it at 0.5% of the housing loans does not bear a relationship to those factors.

What we have is an independent body, an actuary, that would predict what, in the anticipation of the actuary, ought to be held in reserve to cover potential losses. In my view that is a prudent way to operate. However, in the event we find ourselves in a situation where either the risk that is intended to be covered is over covered or more income is earned than ought to be earned, then perhaps CMHC has charged too much on its commercial side of the business.

No doubt in order for it to be competitive with Genworth or other institutions that are operated privately to provide the same services, it needs to establish a reserve to properly capitalize its assets to ensure if there is an economic turndown that it can cover those losses and it must have a divided of some sort at the end of the day to be profitable. In this case, it would be anticipated these would go to the Receiver General, ultimately to general revenue and disposed of as the House may decide. If we find that CMHC is making too much money or is receiving too much income, we then have to look at those who are paying the moneys into it and who are not receiving the benefit, and they are first time homebuyers.

Currently, to purchase a home at a low of equity ratio of, say, 95%, those loans are insured by CMHC which is insured by the Government of Canada that has a stake in this matter. It can provide housing to first time homebuyers at a very low down payment of 5% in this case. However, they must pay an insurance premium of roughly $2,300 to $2,700 depending on the value of the home. All this goes into the CMHC revenues.

If we find that it is generating too much income, or more than is actuarially sound or more than it needs to, this should be taken into account in the amount that is charged to first-time homebuyers, and there are number of ways of doing that. We could reduce the insurance premium, as has been done the last couple of years, by 15% in each year. We could enhance the benefits of the insurance, as it has with respect to title defects or title defect insurance, whether it relates to unknown easements, or encumbrances or any other defect that might cause a concern to the consumer. There are two ways of dealing with excess revenues.

First time homebuyers should be given every opportunity to acquire a home. Five per cent may even be too much and we should work toward a 0% down payment to encourage people who are unable to get into a home. When we look at first time homebuyers, many of them are young people who do not have a lot of assets or money for down payments. We should look at other ways of arriving at how down payments may be achieved. We need to look at other ways at to reduce what it costs them upfront.

Currently, the CMHC insurance portion is financed through the term of the mortgage, which is 25 years. When we look at a 25-year amortization at current interest rates and an insurance policy of, say, $2,300 or $2,700, it amounts to a lot of money over the term of the mortgage. Profits should be utilized at making a better product, encouraging home buying with less down payment or zero down payment and ensuring that premium rates are low rather than using those moneys to cross-subsidize some other enterprises, such as social housing or any other project.

The minister has reduced the premiums twice now, but perhaps he could reduce them more. He has used the extra funding to waive the premiums on rental buildings in rental projects. He also has put in a program of a 10% reduction if the home is energy efficient or if the home is retrofitted. I worry about that because it is like cross subsidization of an insurance premium for purposes other than for what it was intended.

We would be better served if we operated CMHC as a commercial enterprise with sound commercial practices that could compete with other private sectors on an even keel basis to bring down the rate of insurance that individuals would have to pay.

In respect of social housing programs, it is not the business of CMHC to use commercially generated profits from either the insurance business or from the lending business to make social housing type initiatives. That is something the government as a whole needs to do. It is something that the government would need to project and stand the test of the House and ultimately stand the test of the electorate in the event of an election. It is a policy consideration and that needs to be made at the government level and tested through the public.

There is no question in my mind that these initiatives are important and they need to be proceeded with, but it is something that needs to stand the test of the House and of the public in a general election.

Something like this in Bill C-363 would circumvent all of that. It would arbitrarily assess these moneys to those projects without regard to the circumstances we find ourselves in, without regard to what our future economy may be like and without regard to all the circumstances involved in deciding what should be a safe and proper amount not only in the capitalization of CMHC but in the reserve fund.

[Jean Crowder, NDP, Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I rise to support this bill. The NDP will be encouraging all members of the House to vote in favour of Bill C-363 in order to get it to committee for further debate and discussion. I thank the member from the Bloc for introducing this bill.

In part, this bill comes before the House because of the lack of action over the last several decades on the part of the Conservatives and the Liberals. This bill is asking for the profits from CMHC to be reinvested in social housing.

The National Housing and Homelessness Network has put together some figures. In the most recent fiscal year Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation, our national housing agency, reported equity of $3.4 billion and a net income after taxes of $950 million. CMHC projects that its equity will go to $8.3 billion by 2009, with a net income of $1.2 billion.

The national housing and homelessness initiative acknowledges that it is critical that money be put aside for risk management, but it seems only reasonable that we reinvest this kind of money in social housing. We have a housing crisis in Canada. It is shocking that a nation as rich as Canada would have people sleeping on the streets.

One of the things that the National Housing and Homelessness Network has done over the last while is put together a report card on what has happened with housing in Canada. It also pointed out that this whole shameful situation in Canada started under the Conservative government of Brian Mulroney. It cut $2 billion from the national social housing program starting in 1984 and then cancelled entirely all new social housing spending in 1993. That is the legacy the current Liberal government stepped into.

I like this line out of the National Housing and Homelessness Network's press release dated September 21. It started its press release by saying, “Too much political spin, not enough truly affordable housing”. That speaks to the issue here.

It talks about the fact that four years ago, in September 2000, the federal, provincial and territorial housing ministers emerged from a meeting talking about having a working plan to create more desperately needed affordable houses. Six weeks after that meeting the federal Liberals promised to fund up to 120,000 new affordable homes over four years. Four years later in 2004, Canada has no comprehensive national housing strategy, just a loose patchwork of funding and programs that have delivered just 10%--I will repeat that number, just 10%--of the new homes that were promised.

The housing release goes on to talk about all the promises that have been made. It says that ministers have made promises, signed agreements, issued announcements and called press conferences but have failed to build new homes. That is why the National Housing and Homelessness Network has graded federal housing efforts over the past four years as a failure.

The network has done a very good job in its report. The National Housing and Homelessness Network went through a whole series of reports and basically graded the efforts over the last several years as D or F. We are just not making the kinds of inroads needed in housing. It talks about the fact that the best estimates from the national housing and homelessness initiative is less than 12,000 new homes, or 10% of the promise, have actually been committed. This is a shocking set of circumstances.

I want to talk for one moment about what is going on in my own riding of Nanaimo—Cowichan. Last week in the city of Duncan, which has a population of about 5,000 and the Cowichan Valley has around 70,000, a vacant building burned down. That vacant building was the only venue in the Cowichan Valley for people who do not have homes to live. Six people were in that building when it burned down. Two were seriously injured and four others had some minor injuries.

The shameful part is there is nowhere to send people who are homeless in the Cowichan Valley. People are couch surfing, sleeping under the local bridge and in a dangerous vacant building. Where are these people going? After the building burned down, four of the people were put into temporary shelters but because of some other issues, they have been evicted from them. There is nowhere for them to go and they are back on the street.

The local MLA, who is the housing critic for the provincial NDP, has called upon both the federal and provincial governments to get their acts together and build some new homes. He said, “We are seeing a combination of a lack of affordable housing and a total lack of treatment for addiction and mental illness. More and more people are living on the street in more and more desperate circumstances”. MLA Routley is calling on the provincial government to do an inventory of public buildings which could be used for emergency shelters for the homeless or converted to low income housing. We do not want to see people living in vacant buildings and then at risk should arson happen and the building burns down.

There are a number of other initiatives in my riding.

In April of this year a survey on homelessness was done in Nanaimo. The Nanaimo Working Group on Homelessness Issues interviewed 110 people. What is really frightening is that of those 110 people, 45% of the people living on the streets were women and many of those women had children. The study also found that women were far more likely to be homeless longer than men. Fifty-three per cent of the population interviewed were men, and the men were older than the women in general. Forty per cent of the income made on that day was from the sex trade and 11% from drug dealing.

This was a snapshot of the situation. People feel that this under-represents the number of people who are living on the streets in Nanaimo. It is a shameful situation. There is a lack of affordable housing and a lack of addiction treatment centres. There is nowhere for these folks to go.

Another initiative is being undertaken right now in Nanaimo called the Willow WAI, which is the wrap around initiative. This initiative is an integrated case management approach that uses flexible funds to assist the homeless or at risk individuals to remain in sustainable housing. This initiative draws on community partners and other professionals and existing resources. The initiative offers wrap around case management to participants in the community at large. It provides services and flexible funding to ensure access to housing. The sad thing about this initiative is that the funding runs out in 2006. At risk women and children will be back on the street.

The government talks about sustainability for affordable housing. It is very difficult to raise community funds. Three hundred thousand dollars are needed to keep those houses open, and the situation is getting desperate. It is now October and the participants have six months to raise that money before federal funds run out. It is criminal that more women and children will be put back on the streets.

Why should we have affordable housing? Why is social housing a good thing? The Nanaimo affordable housing group put together an evaluation which looked at a project that was taking place in Nanaimo. The group wanted to demonstrate that by having housing in place, it saves money in the system. They have undertaken a project for at risk individuals who have psychiatric problems or disabilities. This is a quote from the study:

Before moving into the building the participating tenants had 63 medical admissions totalling 703 hospital days. Since moving into the complex, there have only been 10 medical admissions totalling 54 days. Before moving into the building there were 31 psychiatric admissions totalling 729 days. Since moving into the complex, there have been 10 psychiatric admissions totalling 82 days.

If we just want to talk about dollars and cents and nothing else, we know that by providing people with affordable, sustainable, good quality housing, we save money in our health care system.

I want to close with one more quote from the national housing initiative. It talked about the fact that federal and Ontario politicians have a habit of announcing the same units over and over again. Ontario promised 46,332 new homes, but delivered 63, and yet it had 11 major announcements involving the same units.

Part of the reason this bill has come before the House is that we are tired of hearing the rhetoric about building new houses and having nothing happen. I encourage all members of the House to support sending Bill C-363 to committee so that we can have further conversations about what is needed to protect the homeless in this country.

[Don Bell, Liberal, North Vancouver, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I would like to speak against Bill C-363 as proposed by the hon. member for Beauport—Limoilou to amend the CMHC act to require the distribution to the provinces by Canada Mortgage and House Corporation of surpluses from its reserve fund.

Housing is a fundamental priority of the federal government, as it is for the people of this country. We in the House have a responsibility to ensure that those Canadians who are in need of assistance are able to access a basic level of safe affordable housing.

Through CMHC the government is working to meet that need by helping to increase housing options and accessibility for low income families and individuals, aboriginal people, seniors, those living with a disability and Canadians with special needs. As the elected representatives of all Canadians, we also have an equal responsibility to all Canadians whose needs are met by the marketplace and who are likewise struggling to build a better life for themselves and for their families. To this end we must do everything we can to help our housing and financial markets work better and more efficiently and to ensure that the Canadian housing system remains one of the best in the world.

The ultimate test of our efforts in this regard is the percentage of Canadians who are able to meet their housing needs without having to rely on government assistance. Today, thanks in large part to the efforts of CMHC and its partners, more than 80% of Canadians are well and affordably housed. Sound financial management has resulted in eight balanced budgets, lower interest rates and a series of exceptionally strong housing markets.

A strong housing market combined with good corporate management and numerous public product innovations has allowed CMHC to enjoy several years of record earnings. The federal government and CMHC are already putting these benefits back into the pockets of Canadians through premium reductions and other enhancements to its mortgage loan insurance activities.

As Canada's national housing agency, CMHC is committed to helping Canadians access a wide choice of quality, affordable homes and making vibrant healthy communities in cities a reality across the country. CMHC's mandate as described in the National Housing Act is to promote housing construction, repair and modernization; housing affordability and choice; improvements to overall living conditions; the availability of low cost financing; and the national well-being of the housing sector.

Part of fulfilling that mandate includes building on its long history of innovation and mortgage loan insurance and securitization to offer a wide range of mortgage insurance products and services that help make home ownership more affordable for Canadian homeowners. These products and services continue to evolve to meet the ever changing needs and lifestyles of Canadians across the country and in all markets.

For example, in April, CMHC introduced a package of enhancements and benefits worth $200 million annually. This included a 15% reduction in mortgage loan insurance premiums for home buyers with as little as a 5% down payment. This is CMHC's second premium reduction for homeowners in two years. This means that a home buyer with a $120,000 mortgage and 5% down payment who obtains a CMHC insured mortgage will save a total of $600 on the purchase of his or her home. Combined with the premium reductions announced by CMHC two years ago, that homeowner is now saving 30%, or $1,200, on the purchase of his or her home.

To increase both the affordability and energy efficiency of Canadian homes, CMHC is offering a 10% refund on mortgage loan insurance premiums for homeowners who purchase an energy efficient home or who make energy-saving renovations to their existing homes.

CMHC also eliminated its mortgage insurance premiums on rental projects under both phases of the affordable housing initiative and other projects with rents that are low enough to meet the needs of households who qualify for social housing. This will result in significant savings to sponsor groups in the order of $300,000 on a $5 million loan with a loan to value of 95%.

For affordable rental housing projects that meet the criteria of CMHC's partnership flexibilities, CMHC implemented a further 15% reduction in mortgage loan insurance premiums. This follows on a 20% reduction announced in 2003, for a total reduction of 35% below the premiums that are charged for regular market housing. For a project with a $5 million loan and a loan to value ratio of 95%, the combined benefit of these premium reductions will amount to a savings of almost $100,000.

More than 633,000 units of social housing are currently managed by CMHC provincial and municipal housing agencies or by local, non-profit organizations such as housing cooperatives and urban aboriginal groups. On behalf of the federal government, CMHC supports social housing by subsidizing these units on a cost shared basis with provincial and territorial housing agencies. If we are to successfully meet the housing challenges of tomorrow, we must continue to work in collaboration with all our partners, including all levels of government, industry and community groups, aboriginal peoples, and the social and private sectors, to build on what we have achieved so far.

Partnerships such as these are at the core of CMHC. It has only been through the active engagement of its partners and stakeholders that CMHC has been able to foster such an impressive housing legacy for the benefit of all Canadians.

Today, a wide spectrum of housing solutions in Canada involves both market and assisted housing. Through CMHC the government is demonstrating its commitment to making housing more affordable for both market and assisted housing needs on all parts of the housing continuum.

Canadians should be proud of their housing finance system. It is a system that provides low cost mortgage funds throughout the country with equal access for all Canadians in good economic times and bad.

Bill C-363 would tie the government and Parliament to an inflexible formula. Too often critics suggest that homeowners get no benefit from the purchase of mortgage insurance; that it is a cost borne by the homeowner to protect lenders. Clearly, the homeowners do benefit financially through lower interest rates, but they are also able to acquire their home earlier and benefit from the growth in home equity sooner. CMHC is also the only provider of mortgage loan insurance for rental housing, retirement and nursing homes in Canada, forms of housing that touch the lives of many Canadians.

CMHC pays claims from the premiums it charges and does this without government subsidy. As such, CMHC sets aside reserves for capitalization to ensure that it remains financially viable through good economic times and bad, and where CMHC has been able to gain efficiencies in its operations, it has passed this benefit back to Canadians through a reduction in mortgage insurance premiums.

In addition, CMHC's capital reserve helps ensure this important and effective crown corporation, which is at the heart of this country's housing finance system and remains self-funding with no need for government subsidies. Let us not deprive CMHC of its ability to do the job we have entrusted it to do for the benefit of all Canadians.

[The Deputy Speaker]

Resuming debate. The hon. member for Quebec has about five minutes left for her speech.

[Christiane Gagnon, Bloc, Québec, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to speak today on this bill that was proposed by my colleague from Beauport—Limoilou.

This is a very important issue and he knows it quite well. Indeed, having been the director of the Fédération des coopératives d'habitation de Québec, Chaudière-Appalaches, he knows well the situation and the lack of commitment of this government toward the poorest in our society. In fact, when he was running for member of Parliament, he committed to making social housing one of his first battles here in the House of Commons. The bill before us today illustrates well his motivation to become a member of Parliament and to talk about this important issue.

I heard the speech of the previous speaker. However, perhaps we might also talk about one of the administrators of the CMHC who praises this corporation. Far be it from me to denigrate the corporation's work. However, as members of Parliament, our mandate is to respond to people's expectations. We must carefully look into what is happening in the field. Given the speech that I just heard, I see that the member is lacking some numbers and some sensitivity toward what is occurring with the people.

I would like to point out that 1.7 million families in Canada and 393,000 families in Quebec have extreme housing needs. The member should be aware of these figures if he wants to try and express what a majority of people are going through everyday. Some Canadians are paying 30%, 50% or even 80% of their income for suitable, adequate accommodation. One of the most important missions of the CMHC should be to help Canadians and Quebeckers secure a better standard of housing.

For a number of years now, there has been a crisis in Quebec and in Canada every year when leases are due for renewal. We know that in some regions, the vacancy rate is as low as 0.5%. There often is a shift in the population towards the inner cities. The member for Hochelaga—Maisonneuve made an eloquent speech in this regard to explain what was going on in his riding.

The situation is also alarming in Beauport—Limoilou. In the Quebec riding, the pressure is very strong because of the vacancy rate. We all know where the responsibility went: it now lies with the Quebec government that created an assistance program or investment fund to help those who could not find affordable housing.

Contrary to this government's grand-sounding speeches, it has not put new money into housing since 1994. This government's heavyweights tell us that $1 billion a year is invested by the government in social housing. However, this only pays for mortgages on the housing stock that existed prior to 1994. That hardly squares with what we heard from the Liberal Party member sitting in this House.

Today, thanks to a Bloc member, a bill was brought forward that requires no royal recommendation to transfer that huge amount lying idle in CMHC's coffers in order for it to fulfil its purpose. It is being said that by December at the latest, $4 billion in excess funds would be in the coffers. We could revert to an ancient practice according to which 1% of the monies could be earmarked for re-investment in social housing. I understand that a reserve fund is necessary, that reserves must be created and that the government must be in a position to meet challenges should mortgage insurance programs lapse into a deficit.

We know that this has been the case in certain years, where several mortgage loans and insurance policies were not honoured. But keeping a $4 billion surplus would be going too far. There is a margin between keeping 0% surplus in this fund and keeping $4 billion. It would have been possible to revert to an older practice and to reduce that reserve amount in the CMHC.

[The Deputy Speaker]

The motion sponsor is entitled to five minutes in reply to close the debate. The hon. member for Beauport—Limoilou.

[Christian Simard, Bloc, Beauport, QC]

Mr. Speaker, to close this debate, before I address Bill C-363 directly, I must comment on the wisdom of your decision to reject the necessity of a royal recommendation for this bill. That is a fundamental point.

This will also bring attention to what I would term the abusive practice of calling for royal recommendation for all private members' bills. It is really something.

We have also discovered—something we actually already knew—that CMHC's money stash falls outside the government's accounting perimeters and is part of the CMHC's own funds. It is, therefore, possible for Parliament to tell it how to dispose of this money, which is not new money. If CMHC is incapable of using its funding properly, if it finds things too hot, let it get out of the kitchen. The needs are enormous.

It is, moreover, important to point out, for the benefit of my eminent colleague from Souris—Moose Mountain, that Parliament unfortunately has no control over this money that is with CMHC. Bill C-363 will give it that control; it proposes that CMHC's ability to squirrel away surpluses be limited, as these amounts take on immoral and distasteful proportions. The bill would encourage reasonable management of the reserve. If these amounts are not used for fulfilling CMHC's mission, that is providing affordable housing and social housing to all Canadians and all Quebeckers, let it hand that money over to the provinces proportional to their population. They have jurisdiction over this area and acquit themselves very well of that responsibility.

Why a bill on CMHC surplus funds? Because of the huge proportions they have taken on. We have also learned through this debate that 1.7 million households allocate over 30% of their incomes to housing. Of that number, close to 400,000 are in Quebec. Another enlightening figure: 100,000 households in Quebec alone allocate over 80% of their incomes to housing. What does this leave them to feed and clothe themselves? This is a disgrace.

Add to this the fact that CMHC has a $4 billion surplus, and we have a disgrace that makes our hair stand on end. These surpluses are accumulating at a rate of nearly $1 billion per year and will exceed $8 billion in 2009. Something must be done. This is immoral.

My bill suggests that CMHC keep an over $1 billion reserve fund. However, if CMHC does not create social programs or home ownership programs, if it does not do its job, than it should let someone else do it. If it cannot stand the heat, it should get out of the kitchen. That is the sole aim of this bill.

I want to convince my Conservative Party colleagues that this bill deserves their unequivocal support, not their opposition. Why? Because it corrects the fiscal imbalance and, to a certain extent, it recognizes the areas under provincial jurisdiction. In my opinion, the Conservative Party officially opposes the fiscal imbalance and believes that each level of government must do the job it has been assigned to do. In terms of housing, the work is often done in the community, and the provinces are often the ones who do it best.

So, the Conservative Party should support this bill. Furthermore, it gives Parliament control over something that is not subject to any controls by CMHC. It would be easy to believe that CMHC is a good administrator, since it has a $4 billion surplus. I have even heard a Conservative MP congratulate CMHC on having a $4 billion surplus and say that, like the private sector, it had done a good job. However, this is a crown corporation that has a mission to fulfill, and that mission is not making a profit.

It would be easy to believe that CMHC is well managed. As I recall, the sponsorship scandal shed light on management practices that were far from beneficial to CMHC's image and logo. Contracts and other things were distributed through Mr. Guité and managers. So, CMHC suffers from mismanagement, astronomical surpluses and bureaucracy, and fails to provide solutions for those in need.

I thank the members of the NDP who have supported me with regard to this bill. I urge the Liberal members to think beyond party lines and consider the well-being of families and individuals.

Bill C-363 does not limit the role of CMHC but rather indicates that, if it does not have the know-how, it should ask for help.

[The Deputy Speaker]

It being 12:12 p.m., the hour provided for the consideration of private members' business has expired.

The question is on the motion. Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[Some hon. members]

No.

[The Deputy Speaker]

All those in favour will please say yea.

[Some hon. members]

Yea.

[The Deputy Speaker]

All those opposed will please say nay.

[Some hon. members]

Nay.

[The Deputy Speaker]

In my opinion the nays have it.

And more than five members having risen:

[The Deputy Speaker]

Pursuant to Standing Order 93, the recorded division stands deferred until Wednesday, October 5, 2005, immediately before the time provided for private members' business.

The House proceeded to the consideration of Bill C-11, an act to establish a procedure for the disclosure of wrongdoings in the public sector, including the protection of persons who disclose the wrongdoings, as reported (with amendment) from the committee.

Public Servants Disclosure Protection Act

[The Deputy Speaker]

There are 47 motions in amendment standing on the notice paper for the report stage of Bill C-11.

Motions Nos. 1 to 47 will be grouped for debate and voted upon according to the voting pattern available at the table.

I will now put Motions Nos. 1 to 47 to the House.

[Reg Alcock, Liberal, President of the Treasury Board and Minister responsible for the Canadian Wheat Board]

moved:

Motion No. 1

— That Bill C-11, in Clause 2, be amended by adding after line 9 on page 2 the following:

““Commissioner” means the Public Sector Integrity Commissioner appointed under subsection 39.1(1).”

Motion No. 2

— That Bill C-11, in Clause 2.1, be amended by replacing line 30 on page 3 with the following:

“Commissioner of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police as a chief executive in respect”

Motion No. 3

— That Bill C-11, in Clause 13, be amended by

a) replacing lines 42 to 44 on page 6 with the following:

“13. (1) A public servant may disclose information referred to in section 12 to the Commissioner if”

b) replacing lines 17 to 22 on page 7 with the following:

“servant to disclose to the Commissioner a confidence of the Queen’s Privy Council for Canada in respect of which subsection 39(1) of the Canada Evidence Act applies or any information that is subject to solicitor-client privilege. The Commissioner may not use the confidence or”

Motion No. 4

— That Bill C-11, in Clause 14, be amended by replacing lines 24 to 31 on page 7 with the following:

“14. A disclosure that a public servant is entitled to make under section 13 that concerns the Office of the Public Sector Integrity Commissioner may be made to the Auditor General of Canada who has, in relation to that disclosure, the powers, duties and protections of the Commissioner under this Act.”

Motion No. 5

— That Bill C-11, in Clause 20, be amended by replacing lines 30 to 34 on page 10 with the following:

“to the Commissioner in respect of the reprisal during the 60-day period referred to in paragraph (a) and the Commissioner has decided to deal with the disclosure, 60 days after the Commissioner reports”

Motion No. 6

— That Bill C-11, in Clause 20, be amended by replacing lines 6 and 7 on page 12 with the following:

“(7) The Commissioner has standing in any proceedings”

Motion No. 7

— That Bill C-11 be amended by replacing the heading before line 1 on page 14 with the following:

“DUTIES OF THE COMMISSIONER”

Motion No. 8

— That Bill C-11, in Clause 22, be amended by replacing lines 1 and 2 on page 14 with the following:

“22. The duties of the Commissioner under this Act are to”

Motion No. 9

— That Bill C-11, in Clause 23, be amended

(a) by replacing lines 1 and 2 on page 15 with the following:

“23. (1) The Commissioner may not deal with a disclosure”

(b) deleting lines 15 to 23 on page 15.

Motion No. 10

— That Bill C-11, in Clause 24, be amended by

a) replacing lines 24 and 25 on page 15 with the following:

“24. (1) The Commissioner may refuse to deal with a dis-”

(b) replacing lines 1 and 2 on page 16 with the following:

“(2) The Commissioner must refuse to deal with a”

(c) replacing line 11 on page 16 with the following:

“(3) If the Commissioner refuses to deal with a”

Motion No. 11

— That Bill C-11 be amended by deleting Clause 25.

Motion No. 12

— That Bill C-11, in Clause 26, be amended by

(a) replacing lines 27 to 29 on page 16 with the following:

“26. (1) The Commissioner may delegate to any employee of the Office of the Public Sector Integrity Commissioner any of his or her powers and”

(b) replacing line 41 on page 16 with the following:

“appear before the Commissioner or a person”

(c) replacing lines 7 to 15 on page 17 with the following:

“(2) The Commissioner may not delegate the conduct of any investigation that involves or may involve information relating to international relations, national defence, national security or the detection, prevention or suppression of criminal, subversive or hostile activities, except to one of a maximum of four officers or employees of the Office of the Public Sector Integrity Commissioner specifically designated by the Commissioner for the purpose of”

Motion No. 13

— That Bill C-11, in Clause 28, be amended by replacing lines 24 on page 17 to line 2 on page 18 with the following:

“28. (1) When commencing an investigation under this Act, the Commissioner must notify the chief executive concerned and inform that chief executive of the substance of the disclosure to which the investigation relates.

(2) The Commissioner, or the person conducting an investigation, may also notify any other person he or she considers appropriate, including every person whose acts or conduct are called into question by the disclosure to which the investigation relates, and inform that person of the substance of the disclosure.

(3) It is not necessary for the Commissioner to hold any hearing and no person is entitled as of right to be heard by the Commissioner, but if at any time during the course of an investigation under this Act it appears to the Commissioner that there may be sufficient grounds to make a report or recommendation that may adversely affect any individual or any portion of the public sector, the Commissioner must, before completing the”

Motion No. 14

— That Bill C-11, in Clause 29, be amended by replacing lines 9 to 14 on page 18 with the following:

“29. (1) If the Commissioner so requests, chief executives and public servants must provide him or her, or the person conducting an investigation, with any facilities, assistance, information and access to their respective offices that the Commissioner may”

Motion No. 15

— That Bill C-11, in Clause 30, be amended by replacing lines 20 to 32 on page 18 with the following:

“30. (1) In conducting any investigation under this Act, the Commissioner has all the powers of a commissioner under Part II of the Inquiries Act.

(2) Whenever the Commissioner issues a subpoena or other request or summons to a person in the exercise of any powers referred to in subsection (1), he or she must allow that person to be assisted or represented by counsel, or by any person.

(3) Before entering the premises of any portion of the public sector in the exercise of any powers under subsection (1), the Commissioner”

Motion No. 16

— That Bill C-11, in Clause 31, be amended by replacing line 40 on page 18 to line 5 on page 19 with the following:

“client privilege. The Commissioner may not use the confidence or information if it is nevertheless received under section 29 or 30.

(2) Nothing in this Act is to be construed as limiting the application of the Canada Evidence Act to investigations conducted by the Commissioner.”

Motion No. 17

— That Bill C-11, in Clause 32, be amended by replacing lines 9 and 10 on page 19 with the following:

“powers in section 30, the Commissioner must consider whether”

Motion No. 18

— That Bill C-11, in Clause 33, be amended by replacing lines 15 and 16 on page 19 with the following:

“cooperating with the Commissioner, or with a person conduct-”

Motion No. 19

— That Bill C-11, in Clause 34, be amended by

a) replacing lines 28 to 30 on page 19 with the following:

“the Commissioner by a person who is not a public servant, the Commissioner has reason to believe that another”

(b) replacing line 40 on page 19 to line 3 on page 20 with the following:

“(2) The Commissioner may not, in the course of an investigation commenced under subsection (1), use a confidence of the Queen’s Privy Council for Canada in respect of which subsection 39(1) of the Canada Evidence Act applies, or information that is subject to solicitor-client privilege, if the confidence or information is disclosed to the Commissioner.”

Motion No. 20

— That Bill C-11, in Clause 35, be amended by replacing lines 4 and 5 on page 20 with the following:

“35. If the Commissioner is of the opinion that a matter”

Motion No. 21

— That Bill C-11, in Clause 36, be amended by replacing lines 12 to 37 on page 20 with the following:

“36. (1) If the Commissioner has reasonable grounds to suspect that information obtained in the course of an investigation may be used in the investigation or prosecution of an alleged contravention of any Act of Parliament or of the legislature of a province, he or she may, in addition to or in lieu of continuing the investigation, remit the information, at that point in time, to a peace officer having jurisdiction to investigate the alleged contravention or to the Attorney General of Canada.

(1.1) If the information relates to the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, the Commissioner may remit the information only to the Attorney General of Canada.

(2) To maintain the separation of investigations carried out under this Act and those carried out for law enforcement purposes, after information has been remitted under subsection (1) in relation to any matter, the Commissioner may not — except in accordance with a prior judicial authorization — remit to any peace officer or to the Attorney General of Canada any further information in relation to that matter that the Commissioner obtains in the course of his or her”

Motion No. 22

— That Bill C-11, in Clause 37, be amended by replacing line 43 on page 20 to line 1 on page 21 with the following:

“Commissioner may, if he or she considers it appropriate to do so, request that the chief executive provide the Commissioner, within a time specified in the report,”

Motion No. 23

— That Bill C-11, in Clause 38, be amended by replacing lines 6 to 12 on page 21 with the following:

“38. If the Commissioner considers it necessary, he or she may report a matter to the Minister responsible for the portion of the public sector concerned or, if the matter relates to a Crown corporation, to its board or governing council, including, but not limited to, when the Commissioner is of the”

Motion No. 24

— That Bill C-11, in Clause 39, be amended by replacing line 23 on page 21 to line 16 on page 22 with the following:

“39. (1) Within three months after the end of each financial year, the Commissioner must prepare and submit to Parliament an annual report in respect of the activities of the Commissioner during that financial year.

(2) The annual report must set out

(a) the number of general inquiries relating to this Act;

(b) the number of disclosures received and the number of those that were acted on and those that were not acted on;

(c) the number of investigations commenced under this Act;

(d) the number of recommendations that the Commissioner has made and their status;

(e) whether there are any systemic problems that give rise to wrongdoings;

(f) any recommendations for improvement that the Commissioner considers appropriate; and

(g) any other matter that the Commissioner considers necessary.

(3) The Commissioner may, at any time, make a special report to Parliament referring to and commenting on any matter within the scope of his or her powers and duties under this Act if, in his or her opinion, the matter is of such urgency or importance that a report on it should not be deferred until the time provided for transmission of the annual report.

(4) Every report to Parliament made by the Commissioner shall be made by being transmitted to the Speaker of the Senate, and to the Speaker of the House of Commons, for tabling in those Houses.

(5) After it is transmitted for tabling, every report of the Commissioner stands referred to the committee of the Senate, the House of Commons or both Houses of Parliament that may be designated or established for the purpose of reviewing the Commissioner’s reports.”

Motion No. 25

— That Bill C-11 be amended by adding after line 16 on page 22 the following new clause:

“39.1 (1) The Governor in Council shall, by commission under the Great Seal, appoint a Public Sector Integrity Commissioner after approval of the appointment by resolution of the Senate and House of Commons.

(2) Subject to this section, the Commissioner holds office during good behaviour for a term of seven years, but may be removed by the Governor in Council at any time on address of the Senate and House of Commons.

(3) The Commissioner is eligible to be re-appointed for a further term of not more than seven years.

(4) In the event of the absence or incapacity of the Commissioner, or if the office of Commissioner is vacant, the Governor in Council may appoint another qualified person to hold office instead of the Commissioner for a term of not more than six months, and that person shall, while holding that office, have all of the powers, duties and functions of the Commissioner under this or any other Act of Parliament and be paid the salary or other remuneration and expenses that may be fixed by the Governor in Council. ”

Recommendation

(Pursuant to Standing Order 76(3))

Her Excellency the Governor General recommends to the House of Commons the appropriation of public revenue under the circumstances, in the manner and for the purposes set out in the following amendment to Bill C-11, An Act to establish a procedure for the disclosure of wrongdoings in the public sector, including the protection of persons who disclose the wrongdoings.

That Bill C-11 be amended by adding after line 16 on page 22 the following new clause:

“39.1 (1) The Governor in Council shall, by commission under the Great Seal, appoint a Public Sector Integrity Commissioner after approval of the appointment by resolution of the Senate and House of Commons.

(2) Subject to this section, the Commissioner holds office during good behaviour for a term of seven years, but may be removed by the Governor in Council at any time on address of the Senate and House of Commons.

(3) The Commissioner is eligible to be re-appointed for a further term of not more than seven years.

(4) In the event of the absence or incapacity of the Commissioner, or if the office of Commissioner is vacant, the Governor in Council may appoint another qualified person to hold office instead of the Commissioner for a term of not more than six months, and that person shall, while holding that office, have all of the powers, duties and functions of the Commissioner under this or any other Act of Parliament and be paid the salary or other remuneration and expenses that may be fixed by the Governor in Council.”

Motion No. 26

— That Bill C-11 be amended by adding after line 16 on page 22 the following new clause:

“39.2 (1) The Commissioner has the rank, and all the powers, of a deputy head of a department.

(2) The Commissioner shall not hold any other office or employment in the public sector or carry on any activity that is inconsistent with his or her powers and duties.”

Recommendation

(Pursuant to Standing Order 76(3))

Her Excellency the Governor General recommends to the House of Commons the appropriation of public revenue under the circumstances, in the manner and for the purposes set out in the following amendment to Bill C-11, An Act to establish a procedure for the disclosure of wrongdoings in the public sector, including the protection of persons who disclose the wrongdoings.

That Bill C-11 be amended by adding after line 16 on page 22 the following new clause:

“39.2 (1) The Commissioner has the rank, and all the powers, of a deputy head of a department.

(2) The Commissioner shall not hold any other office or employment in the public sector or carry on any activity that is inconsistent with his or her powers and duties. ”

Motion No. 27

— That Bill C-11 be amended by adding after line 16 on page 22 the following new clause:

“39.3 (1) The Commissioner is to be paid the remuneration determined by the Governor in Council.

(2) The Commissioner is entitled to be paid reasonable travel and other expenses incurred in the course of his or her duties while absent from his or her ordinary place of work if he or she has been appointed to serve on a full-time basis or his or her ordinary place of residence if he or she has been appointed to serve on a part-time basis.

(3) The Commissioner is deemed to be employed in the public service for the purposes of the Public Service Superannuation Act.

(4) The Commissioner is deemed to be employed in the federal public administration for the purposes of the Government Employees Compensation Act and regulations made under section 9 of the Aeronautics Act. ”

Recommendation

(Pursuant to Standing Order 76(3))

Her Excellency the Governor General recommends to the House of Commons the appropriation of public revenue under the circumstances, in the manner and for the purposes set out in the following amendment to Bill C-11, An Act to establish a procedure for the disclosure of wrongdoings in the public sector, including the protection of persons who disclose the wrongdoings.

That Bill C-11 be amended by adding after line 16 on page 22 the following new clause:

“39.3 (1) The Commissioner is to be paid the remuneration determined by the Governor in Council.

(2) The Commissioner is entitled to be paid reasonable travel and other expenses incurred in the course of his or her duties while absent from his or her ordinary place of work if he or she has been appointed to serve on a full-time basis or his or her ordinary place of residence if he or she has been appointed to serve on a part-time basis.

(3) The Commissioner is deemed to be employed in the public service for the purposes of the Public Service Superannuation Act.

(4) The Commissioner is deemed to be employed in the federal public administration for the purposes of the Government Employees Compensation Act and regulations made under section 9 of the Aeronautics Act. ”

Motion No. 28

— That Bill C-11 be amended by adding after line 16 on page 22 the following new clause:

“39.4 (1) The officers and employees that are necessary to enable the Commissioner to perform his or her duties and functions are to be appointed in accordance with the Public Service Employment Act.

(2) The Commissioner may engage on a temporary basis the services of persons having technical or specialized knowledge of any matter relating to the Commissioner’s work to advise and assist the Commissioner in the performance of his or her duties and functions and, with the approval of the Treasury Board, may fix and pay the remuneration and expenses of those persons. ”

Recommendation

(Pursuant to Standing Order 76(3))

Her Excellency the Governor General recommends to the House of Commons the appropriation of public revenue under the circumstances, in the manner and for the purposes set out in the following amendment to Bill C-11, An Act to establish a procedure for the disclosure of wrongdoings in the public sector, including the protection of persons who disclose the wrongdoings.

That Bill C-11 be amended by adding after line 16 on page 22 the following new clause:

“39.4 (1) The officers and employees that are necessary to enable the Commissioner to perform his or her duties and functions are to be appointed in accordance with the Public Service Employment Act.

(2) The Commissioner may engage on a temporary basis the services of persons having technical or specialized knowledge of any matter relating to the Commissioner’s work to advise and assist the Commissioner in the performance of his or her duties and functions and, with the approval of the Treasury Board, may fix and pay the remuneration and expenses of those persons. ”

Motion No. 29

— That Bill C-11, in Clause 40, be amended by replacing lines 22 and 23 on page 22 with the following:

“officer, the Commissioner or a person acting on behalf of or”

Motion No. 30

— That Bill C-11, in Clause 41, be amended by replacing lines 26 to 30 on page 22 with the following:

“officer or the Commissioner, or any person acting on behalf of or under the direction of a senior officer or the Commissioner, in the performance of the senior officer’s, or the Commissioner’s, as the case may be,”

Motion No. 31

— That Bill C-11, in Clause 43, be amended by replacing lines 6 to 8 on page 23 with the following:

“43. The Commissioner and every person acting on behalf of or under the direction of the Commissioner who”

Motion No. 32

— That Bill C-11, in Clause 44, be amended by replacing lines 16 to 20 on page 23 with the following:

“44. Unless the disclosure is required by law or permitted by this Act, the Commissioner and every person acting on behalf of or under the direction of the Commissioner shall not disclose any information that”

Motion No. 33

— That Bill C-11, in Clause 44.1, be amended by replacing lines 26 to 29 on page 23 with the following:

“information under this Act by the Commissioner or any person acting on behalf of or under his or her direction.”

Motion No. 34

— That Bill C-11, in Clause 45, be amended by replacing lines 30 to 38 on page 23 with the following:

“45. No criminal or civil proceedings lie against the Commissioner, or against any person acting on behalf of or under the direction of the Commissioner, for anything done or omitted to be done, or reported or said, in good faith in the course of the exercise or performance, or purported exercise or performance, of any power or duty of the Commissioner under this Act.”

Motion No. 35

— That Bill C-11, in Clause 46, be amended by replacing line 39 on page 23 to line 3 on page 24 with the following:

“46. The Commissioner or any person acting on behalf of or under the direction of the Commissioner is not a competent or compellable witness in any proceedings, other than a prosecution for an offence under this Act, in respect of any matter coming to the knowledge of the Commissioner, or”

Motion No. 36

— That Bill C-11, in Clause 47, be amended by replacing lines 11 to 16 on page 24 with the following:

“or on behalf of the Commissioner is privileged if it was said, supplied or produced in good faith; and

(b) any report under this Act made in good faith by the Commissioner is privileged, and any fair and”

Motion No. 37

— That Bill C-11, in Clause 48, be amended by replacing line 21 on page 24 with the following:

“Commissioner”

Motion No. 38

— That Bill C-11, in Clause 49, be amended by

(a) replacing lines 28 and 29 on page 24 with the following:

“Act, the Commissioner shall not disclose any information”

(b) replacing line 11 on page 25 with the following:

“(2) The Commissioner may disclose any informa-”

(c) replacing line 18 on page 25 with the following:

“(3) The Commissioner may disclose any informa-”

(d) replacing line 30 on page 25 with the following:

“permitted by subsection (3), the Commissioner must”

Motion No. 39

— That Bill C-11, in Clause 50, be amended by replacing lines 13 and 14 on page 26 with the following:

“by the Commissioner to the chief executive under this Act may”

Motion No. 40

— That Bill C-11 be amended by adding after line 11 on page 27 the following new clause:

“54.1 (1) Each person employed in the Public Service Human Resources Management Agency of Canada in the administrative unit known as the Office of the Public Service Integrity Officer assumes, on the coming into force of this section, a position in the Office of the Public Sector Integrity Commissioner.

(2) Nothing in subsection (1) is to be construed as affecting the status of any person who assumes a position in the Office of the Public Sector Integrity Commissioner by reason of that subsection.”

Motion No. 41

— That Bill C-11 be amended by adding after line 11 on page 27 the following new clause:

“54.2 To the extent that the charges and expenses are in relation to the Office of the Public Service Integrity Officer, any amount appropriated, for the fiscal year in which this section comes into force, by an appropriation Act based on the Estimates for that year for defraying the charges and expenses of the federal public administration within the portion of the federal public administration known as the Public Service Human Resources Management Agency of Canada, and that, on the day on which this section comes into force, is unexpended is deemed, on that day, to be an amount appropriated for defraying the charges and expenses of the Office of the Public Sector Integrity Commissioner.”

Motion No. 42

— That Bill C-11 be amended by adding after line 11 on page 27 the following new clause:

“54.3 Disclosures under the Treasury Board Policy on the Internal Disclosure of Information Concerning Wrongdoing in the Workplace that are being dealt with on the coming into force of this section are to be continued as though they had been made under this Act.”

Motion No. 43

— That Bill C-11, in Clause 55, be amended by replacing lines 25 and 26 on page 27 with the following:

“that Act, or by the Public Sector Integrity Commissioner, in relation to or as a”

Motion No. 44

— That Bill C-11, in Clause 56, be amended by replacing lines 1 and 2 on page 28 with the following:

“20. The Public Sector Integrity Commissioner, for the purposes of the Public”

Motion No. 45

— That Bill C-11, in Clause 57, be amended by replacing lines 19 and 20 on page 28 with the following:

“10(2) of that Act, or by the Public Sector Integrity Commissioner, in relation to”

Motion No. 46

— That Bill C-11, in Clause 58, be amended by replacing lines 6 and 7 on page 29 with the following:

“that Act, or by the Public Sector Integrity Commissioner, in relation to or as a”

Motion No. 47

— That Bill C-11 be amended by adding the following after line 13 on page 29:

“58.1 The schedule to the Act is amended by adding the following in alphabetical order under the heading “Other Government Institutions”:

Office of the Public Sector Integrity Commissioner

Commissariat à l'intégrité du secteur public”

Mr. Speaker, I appreciate members agreeing to dispense with the reading of the motions so we can get into this debate because I am here to celebrate. I am here to celebrate an awful lot of hard work by a lot of members in the House and a great many public servants and others outside this chamber.

The bill has been a long time in coming. We have had a great deal of discussion about the need for it. An enormous amount of work was done prior to this particular bill coming forward. As members will remember, an earlier bill was dealt with in a previous Parliament, and there also was a great deal of very open and straightforward debate on this that has led to substantial improvements in the bill.

In a way, what occurred in committee on this bill is what a great many of us who are concerned about the role of this chamber have always wanted to see happen. We took a difficult public policy question and we put it before the House at first reading. The government put in front of the House a structure and a proposal that it thought would work to address the issue that was at hand. The committee looked at that and it heard from many witnesses. The committee agreed to accept portions of it and decided to ask for changes in areas where it did not have the confidence to change and then made changes in areas that it could. The result of that is that we have a much better bill and one that will serve the public servants of this country and Canadians exceptionally well.

It is no secret that I came forward with a bill that was modelled on this function being handed to the Public Service Commission. The original bill had a recommendation that it be contained within the executive and was structured that way. When I was given the responsibility for this portfolio I felt there had been a great deal of concern about that in the debate on the previous bill and certainly that model was inconsistent with the recommendation that had been put forward when I was the chair of this committee in the House when we first were looking at this.

Therefore I came forward with a proposal that we would put this responsibility under the President of the Public Service Commission. I felt that was a very reasonable way to deal with this and there were lots of reasons to argue it and I shall not re-argue it because the committee disagreed with me. However the committee did not just disagree with me. It called in many witnesses and heard from many people. I have to say that I was persuaded when I heard the arguments. I also spoke to individuals who had made representations. I was trying to sort out why an independent body, such as the Public Service Commission which has nearly a 100 year history in this area, would not be an acceptable home for this.

I came to the conclusion, which hon. members had come to earlier, that this was not a satisfactory solution to this problem. I have informed the committee members of this and have given them copies of what the bill would look like with these amendments in it. I have the full support of the Prime Minister to create a new parliamentary officer who would be the home and the person responsible for carrying out these responsibilities. This office will have the same relationship to Parliament that the other parliamentary officers such as the Privacy Commissioner and others have. It is a major improvement in the bill and members of the committee are to be congratulated for the very hard work they did.

However I would like to go a step further because in a sense this is exactly what we want. In a minority House and in the period just before a potential election where some call what occurs in here the silly season as everyone vies for position and tries to make headlines, there are times when one despairs of whether or not the place will settle down and grapple with a significant and important public policy decision and there certainly were times when I despaired when hearing some of the debate.

However at the end of the day I have always been a strong believer that if a group of people are put around the table and given a complex problem, those diverse opinions will lead to something better. The work of this committee has proven this.

It is important to underline that the committee is chaired by the member for Vegreville—Wainwright. One of the vice-chairs is the member for Winnipeg Centre, who was also the co-chair of the subcommittee of this committee when it wrote the original report on whistleblowing. The other vice-chair is the member for Mississauga South. The membership of the committee are the following members: the member for Thunder Bay—Rainy River; the member for Saint-Maurice—Champlain; the member for Ottawa—Orléans; the member for Stormont—Dundas—South Glengarry who is my critic on this particular file and I know worked exceptionally hard on this bill; my parliamentary secretary, the hon. member for Sudbury, who again put an enormous amount of time in as we worked through all of the changes in the approach to this particular bill; the member for Elgin—Middlesex—London; the member for Lac-Saint-Louis; and the member for Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques who was herself in a former life a public servant and added a great deal of value to the debate as she tried to sort out how this would affect her work as a public servant. That is also true of the member for Stormont—Dundas—South Glengarry.

We also had the valuable advice of the member for Abbotsford who always brings a certain colour and, dare I say, unique perspective to these debates. Frankly, having worked with him many times in the past, I found his interventions quite helpful. I consulted him a couple of times as I was trying to sort out some of the testimony that I had heard.

We also had the active involvement of a couple of other individuals from this House who are not full members of the committee but nonetheless came to the committee and substituted for people and who played a very important role: the member for Nepean—Carleton who was an active participant in the debates that led to the creation of this bill; and the member for Repentigny.

It is that community of individuals in this House from both sides who took time and energy. I know a lot of negotiation went on because some of the points of this bill and some of the positions were quite far apart.

I want to assure the members of the House that the motions that have been laid before the House are the ones I committed to putting before the House exactly as I presented them to the members. The one thing the committee did not have the competence to create, that is competence in the sense of did not have the legal authority to create, was the new office. It takes a royal recommendation because it involves the spending of more money. As the committee was going into clause by clause I committed to bringing forward those amendments. This has been done and the royal recommendation has been provided. The office can with the passage of this bill be created.

It did not stop there. I think that was the most significant change from the previous legislation but there were other changes. The scope of the bill has been broadened. The RCMP, which was initially excluded from the bill, is now included in the bill. The definition of wrongdoing has been clarified to make it clear that wrongdoing includes any activity in or relating to the public sector, not just activities of public servants.

More flexibility has been given to the labour boards to extend the deadlines for reprisal complaints. Bill C-11 would truly create an environment that encourages the reporting of misconduct in the federal public sector and it would be swift to incur action to deal with allegations.

The bill now allows for providing temporary assignments for public servants who are involved in a disclosure of wrongdoing or a reprisal complaint process in order to ensure even great protection, if necessary, during an investigation.

The bill would protect public servants making disclosures and treat fairly those against whom allegations are made. The bill now gives greater encouragement to public servants to disclose information about a possible wrongdoing. They do not require certainty about whether a wrongdoing has in fact occurred or is about to occur before making a disclosure.

In the end, the bill is not just about catching wrongdoers. It also aims to create a positive public sector climate that will support the important role that our public service plays in our parliamentary democracy.

In addition to the Treasury Board code of conduct, under the bill each public sector organization would have to establish their own code that reflects the unique circumstances within their own departments.

The bill also requires me, as the minister responsible for the Public Service Human Resources Management Agency of Canada, to actively promote ethical practices in the federal public sector. I think that is an important requirement.

When we went forward and began to get into this, I did quite a bit of consulting, in and outside of government. It is fine to talk about ethics, and we can frame behaviour with a set of rules, but what we really want is behaviour that comes from within.

One of the companies that is always rated very highly internationally for its ethical practices is General Electric. When I talked to people at General Electric and read about how they approach this, I found that so much of what really drives it is the inculcation of it in everything they do. It is represented in the speeches, in the instructions and in the communication that takes place in the organization at all levels, from the chairman of the board right on down. Every new person who comes into the organization is involved in it. It is not a one-time thing where they go by and post a code on the wall; it is part of the language of the organization.

I take that responsibility very seriously and will be speaking about that in the not too distant future.

I said when I came before the committee that I was looking forward to the members' input and I wanted this bill to be the best it could possibly be. I think they have achieved that and have produced a piece of legislation that will serve us very well.

In closing, I would like to recommend this bill to the House. I have noted that we have put down the amendments which I promised to put down to ensure the adjustments to this bill. I believe there may be one other amendment that is a technical change just to line up the French and English versions on an issue.

I understand that the other parties have been true to their desire to get this bill through the House. I thank them for facilitating this.

I commend the bill to the House. I again want to thank the members for it. I hope we will get speedy passage of the bill through this chamber because we still have to take it into the Senate and I know there will be a great deal of interest there. We need to have that discussion with the other place. Then perhaps we can all stand in this House and watch the proclamation of this particular piece of legislation, which the members of this House have had such a strong hand in creating.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Nepean—Carleton, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I thank the President of the Treasury Board for his remarks.

I thank fellow committee members of all parties who made a contribution to bringing about this bill.

I believe this bill is imperfect, but it is an improvement over the status quo. As a representative of thousands of public servants in my national capital region riding, I am honoured to have been part of the team that helped put this bill together.

There is one particular clause that leaves me with some concern. I would like to hear the comments of the Treasury Board president. It is the clause we call the cover-up clause, which gives the government the right to keep secret any information related to internal disclosures for up to five years. In other words, access to information requests could be denied on subject material related to a disclosure made by a public servant for up to five years.

Originally the government had included this cover-up clause and applied it for 20 years, but the changes we were able to secure brought it down to five. The Information Commissioner indicates to us that if this clause had been in place during the time of the Liberal sponsorship scandal, we might never have learned the details of that criminal conspiracy. I wonder if the Treasury Board president would agree that this particular clause should be revisited and removed.

[Paul Szabo, Liberal, Mississauga South, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order. I want to be absolutely sure that this suggestion of a criminal conspiracy was not somehow attributed to the minister or to others in regard to what he was talking about.